Advice on rhythm and groove

[Guitar Therapist]

Howdy,

I'm giving the bass player in my band some lessons but since I am a guitar player, I thought it'd be good to get some advice from other bassists on how to tackle some of the issues. His biggest problem is grasping the concept of rhythm and groove. He struggles quite a bit with complex rhythms and mixed meters but also with rather simple passages in that he just doesn't seem to have his head around keeping tight and in time. Off-beats, dotted and swung stuff in particular. I was thinking I could take him through some rudimentary patterns like tango or samba rhythms for example, but at the moment that's the only idea I have.

So I was wondering if this is a common occurence with bass players, particularly when they're fairly new to it and what sort of things you'd reccomend to fix it. The other thing I thought would possibly help and he needs to work on anyway, is developing his chops a bit better, but I'm not sure what sort of things bass players use for that either.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.

[Jody LeCompte]

Tell him to imagine himself standing inside the bass drum.

[theosd]

Better: Strap his head inside the bass drum for a rehearsal.

[muthafunkabass]

Metronome because rhythm and groove depend so much on timing. Take that further with drum tracks. It's easy to groove when you lock up with the drums.

[Sablate McNuff]

Ask your drummer to play some simple samba and swing styles. Then play a simple one-note rhythm over each and ask him to follow you.

It's good practice just to practice one-note rhythms. I still do it sometimes when I'm playing varying styles of jazz, just to make sure I have the basic rhythm down, before going all complex.

[Raayl]

Ask the user "The JoZ" about playing in time. He is the master.

[Left Shoe]

all of these suggestions are 100% gold

[Jimbobntnr]

Howdy,

I'm giving the bass player in my band some lessons but since I am a guitar player,

He's not really going to learn much playing with a guitarist - other than how to follow a guitarist. Lock him in a room with the drummer for an hour before band practice.

[DNAsWhiteShadow]

Make sure he develops an unnaturally attached relationship to the bass drum

[EADGC]

Listening to the bass drum will not help you keep time


listening to the whole drum kit will help you keep time.


a lot of players add accents along with the bass drum hits. And that's fine, it makes a powerful effect. But it won't help you in every situation.


feel is unfortunately something you can't really teach. I suggest he studies as much about time signatures, note values, and rhythms that he can, and tries to find them in songs. He should also work on sight reading and transcribing. Hope that helps

[Jody LeCompte]

Matt, I'm going to disagree with you on that count.

Yeah, it's good to listen to entire drum set, but the you can't honestly believe that if you play on top of the bass drum you won't be on time.

[Left Shoe]

Listening to the bass drum will not help you keep time


listening to the whole drum kit will help you keep time.


a lot of players add accents along with the bass drum hits. And that's fine, it makes a powerful effect. But it won't help you in every situation.


feel is unfortunately something you can't really teach. I suggest he studies as much about time signatures, note values, and rhythms that he can, and tries to find them in songs. He should also work on sight reading and transcribing. Hope that helps

odds of him being able to read music, nonetheless transcribe music is slim to none

Matt, I'm going to disagree with you on that count.

Yeah, it's good to listen to entire drum set, but the you can't honestly believe that if you play on top of the bass drum you won't be on time.

but then he is stuck solely on the bass drum

[Jody LeCompte]

This is true.

But is stuck solely on the bass drum really that bad, compared to say...being completely out of time?

[Duncster]

The main thing I would tell an aspiring bassist who wants to develope a groove with a band is: Don't think much about the notes, but play where you just feel notes would fit with little regards to melody. You can always figure out the notes later, but a lot of the feel will come from where the notes are placed, where they are not placed, how long they are played, which notes are accented. Its good to try and get good at this without thinking too much. But of course he should think about foccusing the bass drum when hes stuck, and following the guitar melodies while maybe adding a fifth, or octave at first to get comfortable.

[Left Shoe]

This is true.

But is stuck solely on the bass drum really that bad, compared to say...being completely out of time?

you are making a stupid point.

[Jody LeCompte]

How so?

[Sablate McNuff]

Following the bass drum is just as stupid as telling him to follow the hi-hats or crash or any other single piece.

Many drummers play complex rhythms with the bass drum that may not always fall on the downbeat.

It may help with the melody, yes, but as for keeping time overall, it does not.

[EADGC]

odds of him being able to read music, nonetheless transcribe music is slim to none




Which is why I said he should work on them


right

[EADGC]

How so?



Following only the bass drum is better than not following anything and playing out of time


but it's still not the best thing to do and not what you should be shooting for

[Spaceman Spiff]

Feel the rhythm





























Feel the rhyme
Get on up
It's bobsled time

[EADGC]

yo Sanka, you dead mon?

[Spaceman Spiff]

Ya mon.

[Duncster]

Following the bass drum is just as stupid as telling him to follow the hi-hats or crash or any other single piece.
haha no

It may help with the melody, yes, but as for keeping time overall, it does not.
Who said playing to the bass drum would actually help him keep time overall? Noone. The only person who mentioned it was EADGC saying it WOULDN'T help him keep time.

Jody said that if you are sticking directly to the bass drum you wont be out of time. Not that it will make you better at keeping time. And to say that sticking to the bass drum doesnt help a bassist learn how to keep time at all seems very stupid to me.

For Example. If a drummer is playing a lick where the snare is on the two and the four, and bass drum is on the: (1), (1uh), (2and), and the (3), as in: the first beat, last 16th in first beat, the second 16th in second beat, and the third beat.... and the bassist focuses on playing ONLY on the bass drum until he masters it and continues until he can do it consistently, he WILL improve his time. When he is given a similar beat in the future he will be able to keep time to it much better. It will make him feel more comfortable playing to a drum beat that relies on an accented kick on the (1-uh). This would go for any beats that have a simple bass drum pattern that a bassist could focus on.

Since playing around the downbeat would take more focus, concentration, and skill then say, just playing on the quarter notes, it should help improve time even better then playing to a simple click track.
kinda got off on a tangent there... ill try to go back to mainly lurking >.<

[EADGC]

haha no

Who said playing to the bass drum would actually help him keep time overall? Noone. The only person who mentioned it was EADGC saying it WOULDN'T help him keep time.

Jody said that if you are sticking directly to the bass drum you wont be out of time. Not that it will make you better at keeping time. And to say that sticking to the bass drum doesnt help a bassist learn how to keep time at all seems very stupid to me.

For Example. If a drummer is playing a lick where the snare is on the two and the four, and bass drum is on the: (1), (1uh), (2and), and the (3), as in: the first beat, last 16th in first beat, the second 16th in second beat, and the third beat.... and the bassist focuses on playing ONLY on the bass drum until he masters it and continues until he can do it consistently, he WILL improve his time. When he is given a similar beat in the future he will be able to keep time to it much better. It will make him feel more comfortable playing to a drum beat that relies on an accented kick on the (1-uh). This would go for any beats that have a simple bass drum pattern that a bassist could focus on.

Since playing around the downbeat would take more focus, concentration, and skill then say, just playing on the quarter notes, it should help improve time even better then playing to a simple click track.
kinda got off on a tangent there... ill try to go back to mainly lurking >.<

could you maybe write the beat out when giving examples, I got kind of lost there.


to summarize:

- following any one drum or cymbal is better than nothing

but

- following the entire kit is better


can we all agree on that?

























would you like to kiss my lucky egg?

[Naminator]

Metronome

Nuff' said

[Jimbobntnr]

nothing says 'groove' like a steady "click click click"

[yuppie]

jamacia's got a bobsled team?!?!

[Jimbobntnr]

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/dude_050/Coolrunnings.jpg

[EADGC]

nothing says 'groove' like a steady "click click click"

I was just going to say that


a metronome only gives you the pulse.. no syncopations, no feel... it would help but it's still not the best solution

[Sauron]

I was just going to say that


a metronome only gives you the pulse.. no syncopations, no feel... it would help but it's still not the best solution

Plus they're a gimmick.





Oops.

[EADGC]

Plus they're a gimmick.




http://www.proton-berlin.de/img/berlin240.jpg

The President of International Music Regulation kicks back