Ontario: Black Focused Schools

[Cocaine]

A proposal to create Canada's first black-focused public school was approved by Toronto District School Board trustees Tuesday night.

They have recommended the creation of an alternative school that features a curriculum and teaching environment oriented around black history and culture.

The vote took place after an evening debate on the controversial proposal, which critics believe is a plan for segregation, while supporters believe it could keep more black students in school.

Trustees heard from a number of delegations including academics, parents, teachers and students.

A presentation was also made by the mother of Jordan Manners, a 15-year-old boy shot dead in a Toronto school last May. Loreen Small stood in opposition to the black school plan, calling it "segregation."

"This black school thing … it ain't right," she told trustees, saying teachers need more help to engage with students in multi-racial classrooms.

Some parents have said they want to try something new because the current system isn't working. As many as 40 per cent of black students don't graduate from Toronto high schools.

Angela Wilson is a mother of two who has been at the forefront of a push for Africentric or black-focused schools for years.

"Make our education system better for everybody," she said.

"It's not a one size fits all education system. It's actually working its way to be one size fits few — and the few that are successful do not look like me."

Trustees were supposed to have discussed a report delivered last week that makes four major recommendations:

* Open an Africentric alternative school in 2009.
* Start a three-year pilot program in three other high schools.
* Work with York University to improve school achievement.
* Develop a plan to help failing students.

Supporters said those options will keep black students engaged and in school, but opponents said it will lead to greater isolation.

"I just feel being with a mixed group of people is better, you know, you get to learn different cultures, different aspects of different people, the way they live," said Grade 10 student Terrin Smith-Williams.

Board chair John Campbell sees an Africentric school as just one option for dealing with the problems facing young blacks in Toronto's education system.

"It should not be viewed as the sole solution to a problem, but should instead be seen as a response to a community request for action," he said in a news release issued before the vote.
With files from the Canadian

This was mostly a response to something like 20-30% of black youth not completing their high school diplomas (dont quote me on this stat but you get my drift). But it actually had a lot to do with the grossly inaccurate "safe schools" reports that came out around a month ago. The ones that said kids were terrified to go to school.

Thoughts? "Afrocentric" school's have succeeded elsewhere, it's a matter of how it's handled. I personally see the potential, but don't see it as beneficial to much. The kids not getting their diplomas aren't getting them because they're not interested. While this could very likely raise their interests, the likelihood that they'll be willing to commit to an alternative system (which I've been in, and isn't as easy as people assume) doesn't really make me too optimistic.

[Knifeboy]

Way to promote racial tension Canada

[Danger Bird]

Jesus I wouldn't even expect this from the US.

[Cocaine]

It just really doesn't reflect anything. Alternative schools in the TDSB are, for the most, known to just kick kids out who dont put forth any effort, because they're not home schools and they're essentially there for kids who want to attend school and need a change to succeed.

I don't think it's going to do anything but, as you said, tense everybody the **** up. What if a non-"African Canadian" wants to attend the school?

It's just ridiculous. It's not segregation, because it's an option, but I can't believe this is funded by the board. Alternative schools provide an alternative atmosphere and a unique style of learning, but they still work under the curriculum.

[dei]

**** no.

[1338 h4x0r]

Ill-advised.

[Smokey D]

Way to promote racial tension Canada

Not unless they were seminaries Nation of Islam or something. I don't see why black schools would be more dangerous than any other private school with special interest criteria. Like Catholic schools and the like.

[Knifeboy]

Putting focus on a race creates racial tension because it's a constant reminder that they're different

If it's done right, it could probably do good.. We'll see

[Cocaine]

Not unless they were seminaries Nation of Islam or something. I don't see why black schools would be more dangerous than any other private school with special interest criteria. Like Catholic schools and the like.

Catholic schools have their own school board and are considered private.

These are apart of the Toronto District School Board, making them public. They're alternative, so they're not anyone's homeschools, but still.

[pedro durruti]

Putting focus on a race creates racial tension because it's a constant reminder that they're different

If it's done right, it could probably do good.. We'll see
At the same time though, it's probably alienating for black students to be receiving their education in a white establishment from a predominantly white faculty with a predominantly white student body, where they are constantly reminded that they're different. I think the best thing to do would be to integrate a more comprehensive social science curriculum that adequately represents minority groups into nonsegregated schools, but what the devil do I know about education.

[Hedgedive]

At the same time though, it's probably alienating for black students to be receiving their education in a white establishment from a predominantly white faculty with a predominantly white student body, where they are constantly reminded that they're different.

all the other minorities seem to do just fine.

inb4 BLACKS R LAZY

[Surtr]

I heard this on CBC Radio on Sunday.

I think it was just mentioned briefly though, not sure if they were to talk about it more later, or if it was going to be on next Sunday.

I only ever check out CBC Radio on Sundays though pretty much so.

I'll read all this later and give a more intelligent response.

[DBoons Ghost]

Smokey is right. This has nothing to do with special interests. I feel as though you can't replace parents with teachers. These kids need better parenting is all. Good job black fathers! Way to stick it through. Black kids who come from good families are barely considered black, at least in my experience.

[Danish]

They aren't "black focused schools" as the media keeps calling them, they are Afro-centric schools. If such an option was available to me when I was in high school, I definitely would have gone. I think this is a great thing for Toronto. It's about time we started teaching non-colonial curriculum. I'm just hoping that some of their curriculum makes it into the general curriculum.

There is already a First Nations-focus high school in Toronto. Racism exists in Canada; it is a white supremacist society. We need to break that down.

[Smokey D]

Are you black? If not, first nations school makes a lot more sense.

And Canada isn't white supremacist.

[DBoons Ghost]

They aren't "black focused schools" as the media keeps calling them, they are Afro-centric schools. If such an option was available to me when I was in high school, I definitely would have gone. I think this is a great thing for Toronto. It's about time we started teaching non-colonial curriculum. I'm just hoping that some of their curriculum makes it into the general curriculum.

There is already a First Nations-focus high school in Toronto. Racism exists in Canada; it is a white supremacist society. We need to break that down.


Are you that naive that you think the curriculum is the problem? Is "colonial " curriculum as you call it why they don't graduate from high school?

[Smokey D]

There probably is something colonial (neo-European) about most countries these days, but I think it's almost as bad to assume blacks and other minorities can't succeed in those environments.

[DBoons Ghost]

There probably is something colonial (neo-European) about most countries these days, but I think it's almost as bad to assume blacks and other minorities can't succeed in those environments.

I agree. I have never heard an educator blame the curriculum for these kids interest's being held.

I hear them blame over medicated kids who can't pay attention and then go home to an empty house with no reinforcement from anyone because there is no dad and mom works 3 jobs and can't be bothered to help little Johnny with his homework when he gets home, and since poor little Johnny has been a latch key kid most of his life he has attatchment issues that result in his inablity to pay attention or care about what he's gonna do with his life when he gets older.

Then again, what do I know.

[Danish]

Are you that naive that you think the curriculum is the problem? Is "colonial " curriculum as you call it why they don't graduate from high school?

Naive? No. The reasons are numerous and interconnected. I mean, it isn't the curriculum per se, but where that curriculum came from in the first place. Do you know what I mean?

Again, why the eagerness for confrontation with me?

[Danish]

Are you black? If not, first nations school makes a lot more sense.

And Canada isn't white supremacist.

Why does that make more sense?

It isn't just a school for "them".

[DBoons Ghost]

Again, why the eagerness for confrontation with me?

I miss you is all.

You think I'm always about a fight. That saddens me. When did curious discussion become confrontation?

You made a good point about where the curriculum comes from as well. I didn't even think about that.

[Danish]

It's not just you, it's the culture of this forum. It's really bothering me lately. No one seems to have much real respect for each other, and there seems to be a lot of "chest-puffing", I-am-right-and-I-don't-care-what-you-think mentality. I'm speaking generally, of course, but it bothers me nonetheless.

[DBoons Ghost]

It's not just you, it's the culture of this forum. It's really bothering me lately. No one seems to have much real respect for each other, and there seems to be a lot of "chest-puffing", I-am-right-and-I-don't-care-what-you-think mentality. I'm speaking generally, of course, but it bothers me nonetheless.

Oh.. well, that I understand for sure, and thats always bothered me. It's not about the learn it's about the pwn. Some of the members who only exist in this forum perpetuate that behavior and nothing is really done about it. I mean, I'm no shining example either way, reformed or not! Debates can be very emotional for some people. I think you and I can both attest to that.

[Smokey D]

Why does that make more sense?

It isn't just a school for "them".

I just figure an Afrocentric school (which, you said yourself, isn't the same as a black school: its focus is on Africa, not black people in the New World) that offers insight into the post-colonial structure of Africa and the ways in which Africans are constructed in western thought has less relevance to a Canadian, even a white one, than a one which details the way in which colonialism played out in Canada. In fact, I'd argue that an understanding of colonialism in Canada provides a far better model and a framework for coming to grips with settler (re white displacement) colonialism than Afrocentric models. I'd also argue that understanding and deconstructing that type of colonialism is far more relevant to people living in societies descended from white settlement than one focused on Africa.

In fact, my main problem with the idea of an Afrocentric school, rather than fears of racial tension, is that Afrocentrism obscures the issue. Rather than focusing on colonialism in general, it posits a unique narrative. While Africa's history is obviously unique, the issues of colonialism transcend any one region or any one historiography.

[Dave de Sylvia]

This is interesting. There'll probably be positive and negative effects from the program, and I'm guessing people will be more inclined to focus upon the negative.

[Danish]

I just figure an Afrocentric school (which, you said yourself, isn't the same as a black school: its focus is on Africa, not black people in the New World) that offers insight into the post-colonial structure of Africa and the ways in which Africans are constructed in western thought has less relevance to a Canadian, even a white one, than a one which details the way in which colonialism played out in Canada. In fact, I'd argue that an understanding of colonialism in Canada provides a far better model and a framework for coming to grips with settler (re white displacement) colonialism than Afrocentric models. I'd also argue that understanding and deconstructing that type of colonialism is far more relevant to people living in societies descended from white settlement than one focused on Africa.

Well, Afrocentric education would be geared to all decedents of Africa. For instance, did you know Canada outlawed slavery in 1834, only 30 years before the US?

In fact, my main problem with the idea of an Afrocentric school, rather than fears of racial tension, is that Afrocentrism obscures the issue. Rather than focusing on colonialism in general, it posits a unique narrative. While Africa's history is obviously unique, the issues of colonialism transcend any one region or any one historiography.

Of course, none of which one learns about in a standard Ontario public school.

[Iskandar]

I'm interested in this and not at all inclined to dismiss it immediately like many have done. After all, it makes sense to have an Afrocentric curriculum if the majority of students are going to be black. (And to be sorta cynical, it could be argued that public schools attended by white children are just the opposite - Eurocentric.)

[Against Miik!]

Having black focused schools doesn't help the root of the problem, which is why are black schools more violent. You aren't changing any of there circumstances. Maybe I missed the point, I dunno.

[DBoons Ghost]

Having black focused schools doesn't help the root of the problem, which is why are black schools more violent. You aren't changing any of there circumstances. Maybe I missed the point, I dunno.

By gearing the curriculum towards something young black men and women might find some interest in could help. If they feel like they are being force fed by crusty old white men they could knock the system left and right and feel hopeless to ever succeed in that environment. If the studies are more focused to something they are interested in, it could keep them in school. I think it's absurd but luckily I'm not in a position to decide eitjer way.

Since the dismantling of the Board of Education in NYC, the newly formed Department of Education have allowed schools to do the very same thing in NYC. It's had zero effect. I forgot the term my wife used but essentially each Principal is allowed to design the curriculum around the strongest demographic in the school in order to pique interest. It's had a huge effect on children in middle school but once they are off to high school it's back to the "system" where they usually get lost again.

It's useless.

[Against Miik!]

Yeah, I mean, that makes sense, to gear cirriculums towards certain crowds. But its not like black students are that different from white in students in regards to what they need to learn. How would it be different? Would they learn math by discussing Lil Wayne's average record sales? It's dumb. When people leave high school, they all enter the same world.

It's not like white students enjoy learning from crusty old white guys either. But if black students have a problem being mature about it and just going to school, well, then like I said, there is another underlying problem that isn't being addressed here.

[DBoons Ghost]

I don't disagree at all.

At this point, whatever works is worth a try.

[Amit]

**** man i wish i had that

i would have learned how to dance well so much earlier

[Dave de Sylvia]

As usual, Ego has the correct opinion.
I'm interested in this and not at all inclined to dismiss it immediately like many have done. After all, it makes sense to have an Afrocentric curriculum if the majority of students are going to be black.
I don't know. It kind of begs the question of why these things aren't adequately represented to begin with. I'm not Canadian so I don't know what exactly the case is, but I can't understand why black kids would need to be taught a different curriculum to white kids. Granted, if it's an effort to respond to the particular underperformance of black kids by offering them a course they're interested in, then it's to be commended, but like a few people have hinted at it would probably be more constructive if everybody studied a little more Afrohistory.

[Mr. Ron]

As usual, Ego has the correct opinion.

I don't know. It kind of begs the question of why these things aren't adequately represented to begin with. I'm not Canadian so I don't know what exactly the case is, but I can't understand why black kids would need to be taught a different curriculum to white kids. Granted, if it's an effort to respond to the particular underperformance of black kids by offering them a course they're interested in, then it's to be commended, but like a few people have hinted at it would probably be more constructive if everybody studied a little more Afrohistory.
agreed

[YDtoad]

I don't disagree at all.

At this point, whatever works is worth a try.

Even if it improves academic performance, the social impact of effective segregation could far outweigh the positives.

[Smokey D]

Well, Afrocentric education would be geared to all decedents of Africa. For instance, did you know Canada outlawed slavery in 1834, only 30 years before the US?

Upper Canada abolished it in 1793. Lower Canada did so in 1803.

The British empire abolished slavery in 1838, could that be what you were referring to?


Even if it improves academic performance, the social impact of effective segregation could far outweigh the positives.

It's not segregation.

[Saetia]

*facepalm

[YDtoad]

It's not segregation.

If you're dividing kids based on race, then how is it not?

Not only that, but creating an 'afrocentric' curriculem for them basically further deemphasizes it for everyone else--"ok let the blacks learn about africa and we'll keep on focusing on WASP history"

Instead of "afrocentric" or western europe centric (which is the reality in most schools), why not concentrate on making education better and more full for everyone?

[Saetia]

Even if it improves academic performance, the social impact of effective segregation could far outweigh the positives.

Truth. Can anyone say GANG VIOLENCE?

You n*gga dis cracka stepped on our block!

Eh! Whatdya goin on aboot eh?

[Smokey D]

If you're dividing kids based on race, then how is it not?

Not only that, but creating an 'afrocentric' curriculem for them basically further deemphasizes it for everyone else--"ok let the blacks learn about africa and we'll keep on focusing on WASP history"

Instead of "afrocentric" or western europe centric (which is the reality in most schools), why not concentrate on making education better and more full for everyone?

I do think a more global approach should be introduced, but you can't deny that introducing more African (or first nations or whatever) is necessary to correct the Eurocentrism of the current approach.

[YDtoad]

I do think a more global approach should be introduced, but you can't deny that introducing more African (or first nations or whatever) is necessary to correct the Eurocentrism of the current approach.

first nations????

But yeah, I agree that introducing more African history is necessary...but in this way, in this type of environment?

[Smokey D]

First nations is Native American.


But yeah, I agree that introducing more African history is necessary...but in this way, in this type of environment?

It's worked in other places with other sub cultures.

[YDtoad]

First nations is Native American.

Ok I thought you were calling Africans first nationers.


It's worked in other places with other sub cultures.

Like who?

[Smokey D]

Native Americans and Maori.

[YDtoad]

Native Americans and Maori.

Native Americans remain self-segregated and heavily impoverished. I'm no expert on Maoris, but aren't they too still heavily impoverished, in dangerous situations and lifestyles, and self segregated?

[Smokey D]

Native Americans remain self-segregated and heavily impoverished. I'm no expert on Maoris, but aren't they too still heavily impoverished, in dangerous situations and lifestyles, and self segregated?

By Native Americans I meant First Nations (ie Canadian Native Americans).

Maori aren't segregated. But they are still highly represented in most negative statistics (ie, they're more likely, per capita, to be convicted of a crime. more likely to be poor and to die earlier than white people), but this is the point. Maori who are heavily involved in their community and who identify and participate with their iwi (tribe) are less likely than other (particularly urban) Maori to come under those statistics.

[YDtoad]

By Native Americans I meant First Nations (ie Canadian Native Americans).

Maori aren't segregated. But they are still highly represented in most negative statistics (ie, they're more likely, per capita, to be convicted of a crime. more likely to be poor and to die earlier than white people), but this is the point. Maori who are heavily involved in their community and who identify and participate with their iwi (tribe) are less likely than other (particularly urban) Maori to come under those statistics.

What do you mean their community? Why isn't their community the broader community? When Polish, Slovak, etc. immigrants first came to America they were in their own communities, but in time they integrated and helped form a more broad American identity. Obviously it's a little different than people who have been here longer, but there is still a common element of integration.

In America, Native Americans have a cultural identity, which the rich and powerful seek to maintain. This hasn't helped them. They remain in poverty.

The key to betterment is full integration, not separatism.

[Smokey D]

What do you mean their community? Why isn't their community the broader community? When Polish, Slovak, etc. immigrants first came to America they were in their own communities, but in time they integrated and helped form a more broad American identity. Obviously it's a little different than people who have been here longer, but there is still a common element of integration.

Because, for whatever reason, there is a significant proportion of Maori who identify as Maori, and continue to adhere to that culture. It's like asking why people who live in English villages aren't part of the wider community. They're part of both communities.


The key to betterment is full integration, not separatism.

Yeah, but integration shouldn't mean assimilation.

[chronopops]

The key to betterment is full integration, not separatism.
That really is not the key to betterment that's the key to everyone acting white.

Like Smokey said; integration shouldn't mean assimilation. People need to and should preserve their culture.

[Mr. Ron]

I wasn't aware that there was a reserved way of acting for whites only.

[Smokey D]

No, but there are patterns of behavior associated with European culture as opposed to other cultures.

[dei]

I wasn't aware that there was a reserved way of acting for whites only.

My cousin's friends used to ask me why I act white.

[Mr. Ron]

Cut that **** out!

[dei]

y u act white won

[Mr. Ron]

I can't help it, its the only way I know. :(

[McP3000]

No, but there are patterns of behavior associated with European culture as opposed to other cultures.
Like maturity and getting a proper education? Mannerisms and lifestyles are completely different.

This seems like a complete cop-out to me. All it will do is further segregate races. It will make black people move to areas zoned to afrocentric schools, and white kids move out.

Not to mention that the European influence on Modern USA and Canada outweighs the African. Sure, there is much influence from slavery and such, but...c'mon...

[Cocaine]

Stop crying segregation. It's not segregation when it's an option.

And yeah, typical school programs are insanely Eurocentric. That's why I went to a Toronto Alternative school. I learned all sides.

Not to mention that the European influence on Modern USA and Canada outweighs the African. Sure, there is much influence from slavery and such, but...c'mon...
Influence how, politically?

In Toronto, "European" descendants are the minority. In a city often claiming to be the most multi-cultural in the word, you could make a case for Afrocentric schools.

[McP3000]

Stop crying segregation. It's not segregation when it's an option.

And yeah, typical school programs are insanely Eurocentric. That's why I went to a Toronto Alternative school. I learned all sides.
Well, i did admit tl;dr...i didn't know it was an option
(not to mention alternative schools means something completely different in America)

Influence how, politically?

In Toronto, "European" descendants are the minority. In a city often claiming to be the most multi-cultural in the word, you could make a case for Afrocentric schools.
Great...Laredo, Texas also has more hispanics than white people. Don't care.
The structure of government and economics is almost completely european driven for both Toronto and Laredo.
"New France", an obviously french colony was the foundation of modern Canada. The entire country has been brought up similar to the USA. A European-clone country on the other side of the lake.

[Cocaine]

The entire country has been brought up similar to the USA.
But Canada isn't a melting pot. It preaches multiculturalism. So it's not the same at all.

It provides the option to learn about your culture in a Canadian setting, rather than learn about Canadian culture (ha!) exclusively.

[McP3000]

But Canada isn't a melting pot. It preaches multiculturalism. So it's not the same at all.

It provides the option to learn about your culture in a Canadian setting, rather than learn about Canadian culture (ha!) exclusively.
Shouldn't Canadian schools teach the kids a proper history of their country...not a bastardized and "tolerant" one?

[Toaster]

i like how one journalist put it

"first it was 'no special schools (except for catholics)', now it's 'no special school (except for catholics and blacks)'"

lol

[Cocaine]

Shouldn't Canadian schools teach the kids a proper history of their country...not a bastardized and "tolerant" one?

How is this bastardized at all? Furthermore, how is an obviously Eurocentric curriculum teaching anyone anything about "their" country?

You're missing the point. The entire cultural basis for this country is to let people parade their culture, heritage, and feel like they can represent both their "original" nationality as well as their Canadian culture. This would provide another option.

A lot of this comes down to semantics, bad timing and a double standard. But, while people present the BUT A WHITECENTRIC SCHOOL WULD BE RACIST ARGUMENT, they ignore how Eurocentric our style of learning is.

[Smokey D]

Shouldn't Canadian schools teach the kids a proper history of their country...not a bastardized and "tolerant" one?

Who says a Eurocentric history is the proper one?

[Amit]

Like maturity and getting a proper education? Mannerisms and lifestyles are completely different.

hahahahahahah

[Hoyle00cdn]

Great...Laredo, Texas also has more hispanics than white people. Don't care.
The structure of government and economics is almost completely european driven for both Toronto and Laredo.
"New France", an obviously french colony was the foundation of modern Canada. The entire country has been brought up similar to the USA. A European-clone country on the other side of the lake.

Your understanding on Canadian history seems to be a little blurred. The Province of Quebec is about the only place in Canada that was predominantly influenced by the French culture of 17th century France. Most other provinces have followed the British model of cultural and political ideology.

The topic of this thread isn't about comparing Canadian history to American history, but do understand that there are many fundamental differences between the way Canada and US operate.

-----------------------------------------

Afro-centric curriculum:
While many of you have raised very interesting points, the purpose of an afro-centric curriculum is mostly for aesthetic purposes. It's hardly about segregation, but more about the politics of recognition.

An afro-centric curriculum is about recognizing the aesthetic idea that "Black-is-Beautiful". Most black children grow up reading and studying a curriculum completely derived out of white male authors. Whether it be Newton, Galileo, Socrates, Historical Leaders(military/politicians), etc they are all predominantly white. To us this commonality means nothing, but to blacks it could appear as a sense of insignificance, unaccomplished, and the aesthetic image of "ugliness". Advocates argue that this can have a dual affect on the way black children see their education system.

1. The education has failed me.
2. The black culture has failed the education system.

Neither impression is inspiring for black children to try harder at school.

An Afro-centric curriculum does not abandon the fundamental teaching of the standard curriculum, it simply adds courses and material that highlights black achievements. The end goal is to hopefully reverse any false image of insignificance, unaccomplished, "ugliness", and replacing it with the idea that "Black is Beautiful" therefore I can succeed.

[Hababi]

Because, for whatever reason, there is a significant proportion of Maori who identify as Maori, and continue to adhere to that culture. It's like asking why people who live in English villages aren't part of the wider community. They're part of both communities.

But the English villagers don't represent a different ethnic group, and they're not separating themselves along that ethnic group, right?

People died fighting for integration of minorities, and tbh it's pretty much a slap in the face of them for people to turn around and advocate self separation.



Yeah, but integration shouldn't mean assimilation.

Assimilation isn't a process of one group casting aside the entirety of its culture and embracing another. It's a continual synthesis amongst groups.

Stop crying segregation. It's not segregation when it's an option.

Vuluntary segregation/self-segregation is still segregation.

[Smokey D]

But the English villagers don't represent a different ethnic group, and they're not separating themselves along that ethnic group, right?


Racist.

You're assuming you can't participate in more than one community.


People died fighting for integration of minorities, and tbh it's pretty much a slap in the face of them for people to turn around and advocate self separation.


People also died to gain or preserve self-determination. It's a slap in the face to them to be assimilated into the white majority just because some people don't like the idea of non-white communities.

Assimilation isn't a process of one group casting aside the entirety of its culture and embracing another. It's a continual synthesis amongst groups.


Assimilation is the absorption of one group by another, destroying the unique characteristics of each other. And most Maori don't want to be brown white people.

[Hababi]

You're assuming you can't participate in more than one community.

There shouldn't be notions of 'community' among racial lines. It's harmful to building a broader, more enlightened community for everyone.


People also died to gain or preserve self-determination. It's a slap in the face to them to be assimilated into the white majority just because some people don't like the idea of non-white communities.

"non-white" communities are as stupid as "white" communities. Racial communities=stupid.



Assimilation is the absorption of one group by another, destroying the unique characteristics of each other. And most Maori don't want to be brown white people.

And if you look at American history, the assimilation that has occurred has never been that complete absorption. Our characteristics are a hodgepodge of qualities from various ethnic groups that have come here.

[Smokey D]

There shouldn't be notions of 'community' among racial lines. It's harmful to building a broader, more enlightened community for everyone.

It's even worse to exclude other cultures and communities because they aren't part of the majority.

"non-white" communities are as stupid as "white" communities. Racial communities=stupid.



It's a cultural distinction that happens to be largely along ethnic lines.


And if you look at American history, the assimilation that has occurred has never been that complete absorption. Our characteristics are a hodgepodge of qualities from various ethnic groups that have come here.

Yeah, but why should people have to become part of a hodgepodge when their own culture is unique and good?

[Hababi]

It's even worse to exclude other cultures and communities because they aren't part of the majority.

Who's advocating that? What you're defending only fosters exclusionary practices, because instead of groups coming together and learning about each other, they stay separate and learn only about themselves. That doesn't breed progress.




Yeah, but why should people have to become part of a hodgepodge when their own culture is unique and good?

You act as though those two realizations are incongruous. If everyone had that mindset, there would've never been an America, or Canada, or any other nation that exists as a combination of different ethnicities and cultures. Yes, we're not all Iceland, Japan, or Turkmenistan. We have different ethnic backgrounds but a common broader identity. What is it about people of a different skin hue that makes you think that they somehow can't handle this?

[Smokey D]

Who's advocating that? What you're defending only fosters exclusionary practices, because instead of groups coming together and learning about each other, they stay separate and learn only about themselves. That doesn't breed progress.

You're saying minority cultures and communities have to accept and absorb without hesitation the culture of the majority despite the fact that unique insights and qualities of the minority will almost undoubtedly be destroyed in the process. You justify this on the off chance that the minority culture will inject itself into the majority. In this, you fail to realise that the injection of the minority culture will die like an organ transplant if it is not sustained by an authentic and dynamic original. You also fail to recognise that people can participate in multiple communities at once. Maori don't need to identify as either Maori or New Zealanders; they are quite capable of identifying as both. This is exactly the same as English people identifying as British and English or French people identifying as Normans and French or even some Americans idenfitying as Californians and Americans. In fact, in many ways, the differences are less concrete since Maori don't have a distinct legal structure to back up their allegedly separatist claims. Going to the marae is no different to going to different churches or attending town meetings.

You act as though those two realizations are incongruous. If everyone had that mindset, there would've never been an America, or Canada, or any other nation that exists as a combination of different ethnicities and cultures. Yes, we're not all Iceland, Japan, or Turkmenistan. We have different ethnic backgrounds but a common broader identity. What is it about people of a different skin hue that makes you think that they somehow can't handle this?

You can have multiple cultures participating freely and equally in society without becoming part of the Borg.

[Hababi]

You're saying minority cultures and communities have to accept and absorb without hesitation the culture of the majority despite the fact that unique insights and qualities of the minority will almost undoubtedly be destroyed in the process. You justify this on the off chance that the minority culture will inject itself into the majority. In this, you fail to realise that the injection of the minority culture will die like an organ transplant if it is not sustained by an authentic and dynamic original.


It may help to move beyond the abstract that is culture and talk about specifics. What are you specifically talking about being lost?


Maori don't need to identify as either Maori or New Zealanders; they are quite capable of identifying as both. This is exactly the same as English people identifying as British and English or French people identifying as Normans and French or even some Americans idenfitying as Californians and Americans.


You have the border reversed. Thinking state first, country second led to the Civil War. It caused Robert E Lee, an honorable man and one who was personally against slavery, to fight for the South. People are Americans first, Californians second.

What is the financial status, and overall human development level, of non-urban Maori? Education level, etc.?

[Dave de Sylvia]

I am Irish first and European second. Somehow I am juggling these two identities.

[dei]

I am Angeleno first and Californian second.

[Mr. Ron]

I don't care about my ancestry until all the sweet holidays come up like Oktoberfest.

[Smokey D]

It may help to move beyond the abstract that is culture and talk about specifics. What are you specifically talking about being lost?

Concepts of family, community, land use, ownership and conservation, spirituality and a bunch of other things that'd be too specific for you to understand.

You have the border reversed. Thinking state first, country second led to the Civil War. It caused Robert E Lee, an honorable man and one who was personally against slavery, to fight for the South. People are Americans first, Californians second.

Stupid comparison.

What is the financial status, and overall human development level, of non-urban Maori? Education level, etc.?

They are poorly represented. I already said this.

First of all, I'd say that's reasonably irrelevant since failure to perform well in white society doesn't say anything intrinsic about your culture. Secondly, part of the cause is the separation from traditional culture, the dislocation caused by European interjection and the alienation of Maori from the most profitable parts of the country. This is what Maoricentric (and Afrocentric) schools aim to correct, many of which have had success.

[Hababi]

Concepts of family, community, land use, ownership and conservation, spirituality and a bunch of other things that'd be too specific for you to understand.

What do you mean by community? Ownership must be compromised into a homogenous outlook, as otherwise you'd have anarchy. Family, spirituality, and the such all are maintained quite fine by various ethnic groups in America. Greek and Russian Orthodox, Italian Catholics, etc. all have distinct family and spiritual cultures that hardly disappeared when they came here.



Stupid comparison.


Hardly. If your allegiance is first to any other community than your country then you're not a loyal citizen of the country.


They are poorly represented. I already said this.

First of all, I'd say that's reasonably irrelevant since failure to perform well in white society doesn't say anything intrinsic about your culture.

What do you mean in 'white' society? It's hardly 'white' to do well in school, to not commit crimes, to get good jobs, etc. That's no more white than it is black in the Seychelles (ok, the Seychelles have a Creole culture, but you get the point). Saying that anything outside of poverty is 'white' culture only contributes to the problems.


Secondly, part of the cause is the separation from traditional culture, the dislocation caused by European interjection and the alienation of Maori from the most profitable parts of the country. This is what Maoricentric (and Afrocentric) schools aim to correct, many of which have had success.

Ok so how have they succeeded? Where's the improvement?


I am Irish first and European second. Somehow I am juggling these two identities.


You're talking about nationstate-->continent. Well duh. Are you a Dubliner or wherever you're from, first, and Irish second?

[Dave de Sylvia]

America is a continent too. And I probably would consider myself a Dubliner first, since I have much more in common with Dublin people than those from outside.

[Hababi]

America is a continent too. And I probably would consider myself a Dubliner first, since I have much more in common with Dublin people than those from outside.

America isn't even a subcontinent, it's just a large country. Australia is a continent and a country...do people think of themselves as western Australians first? Disregarding the Aboriginees...

[Dave de Sylvia]

OK, I identify with the European Union then. I am from Dublin and I am from Leinster and I am from Ireland and I am from the EU. That's four distinct communities, none of which could claim to be homogenous but all of which have certain distinct features which separate them, and all of which co-exist quite well in the grand scheme of things.

[chronopops]

Serenity you are really stupid, bro.

[Det_Nosnip]

Way to promote racial tension Canada

123

[cobert]

Im going to take the stance that we shouldnt provide a different, more afrocentric school, nor should we force people into eurocentric education, but rather that we should probably provide more opportunities in the curriculum of all schools to learn about african history and culture. A little strength in the global awareness department of a school wouldnt hurt anybody.

[Mr. Ron]

I want to take finebootay102

[Cocaine]

A lot you really are missing the point completely.

The issue is that a huge, huge, huge community is not adequately represented in the curriculum. That very same community has a very, very high rate of their youth not finishing high school.

Since this country is multicultural, ie: you are an Irish Canadian, an African Canadian, you are at right to practise both of these cultures naturally.

In the United States, you are American. You can call yourself Irish American, but the government considers that irrelevant. Melting pot. Different ideology completely.

This is a starting point, sort of a wake-up call, that our curriculum is ridiculously Eurocentric. It provides the option for young black youth to learn about THEIR culture, because otherwise that'd probably be limited to February. Things like this happen so that a greater change can be made.

Yes, this is a band-aid solution, but long-term it has more than enough potential for success. My issue was that it was being paraded around reports of crime in schools, as if this would solve it. My issue is that it was proposed as "black focused", not Afrocentric, which believe it or not makes a huge, huge difference.

Im going to take the stance that we shouldnt provide a different, more afrocentric school, nor should we force people into eurocentric education, but rather that we should probably provide more opportunities in the curriculum of all schools to learn about african history and culture. A little strength in the global awareness department of a school wouldnt hurt anybody.
That's the idea, in the long run. But, in line with our ethnic and cultural ideology, the option to allow students to learn a mixture of Canadian and [their culture] makes complete sense. This is just happening as a response to statistical evidence that a lot of black youth just don't seem to be interested in school.

[Reaganista]

It's not segregation, because it's an option
umm optional segregation is still segregation

[Cocaine]

It'll depend on how it plays out.

[McP3000]

It'll depend on how it plays out.
I cant tell you right now

badly

[Cocaine]

It's worked in the past.

[McP3000]

It's worked in the past.
:confused:
what?

when?

[Cocaine]

Pretty sure there's a school in Chicago.

[Hoyle00cdn]

umm optional segregation is still segregation

No it's not segregation.....

I understand exactly where Cocaine is coming from.

It's not that one of us are right and the other wrong. The reason why we're looking at this differently is because our two countries come from completely different backgrounds.

From the start of American history (as far as I have been taught) there has always been a nucleus or homogeneous identity. IOW if you travel to 15 different American states (with the exception of maybe Hawaii and Alaska) and asked someone what it meant to be America, the answers would slightly very but the general identity would be the same.

In Canada this is less commonly found. From elementary school all the way to university the question "what is our Canadian identity?" is a very complicated question. There really is no common answer because what it means to be Canadian can vary from province to province.

What you are trying to do is answer a Canadian question with an American answer of homogeneity. The birth of Canada had no homogeneous identity, instead it was founded by a duel identity of both French and English cultures trying to co-exist. IOW from the birth of Canada the topic of cultural recognition was already a predominant debate and this debate has never disappeared.

Out of this tension has come the concept of Niche Identity. Niche Identity is the idea of feeling proud of two identities simultaneously without the need to prioritize them along an axiom of importance. Most Quebecois citizen of Canada are just as proud to be Canadian as they are to be Quebecois, they just don't like it when you ask them to prioritize the two identities. Allowing black children to experience an Afro-centric curriculum is no different then the province of Quebec making it mandatory for French children in Quebec to attend French oriented schools. It's a way of preserving French Canadien culture and with it a sense of pride.

You can deny the applicability of this sort of thinking all you want, but the fact remains that it has worked relatively well for Canada for the past century. Denying that is sort of an insult to my country's history.

[Cocaine]

Also, I don't necessarily the support the idea of an "Afrocentric" school. The ultimate goal would be integrating that afrocentric curriculum into a broader one, but you can't integrate an undeveloped curriculum.

From the start of American history (as far as I have been taught) there has always been a nucleus or homogeneous identity. IOW if you travel to 15 different American states (with the exception of maybe Hawaii and Alaska) and asked someone what it meant to be America, the answers would slightly very but the general identity would be the same.

In Canada this is less commonly found. From elementary school all the way to university the question "what is our Canadian identity?" is a very complicated question. There really is no common answer because what it means to be Canadian can vary from province to province.


This is basically it. It's a melting pot versus multiculturalism and a lot of people are arguing out of context.

[Smokey D]

What do you mean by community? Ownership must be compromised into a homogenous outlook, as otherwise you'd have anarchy. Family, spirituality, and the such all are maintained quite fine by various ethnic groups in America. Greek and Russian Orthodox, Italian Catholics, etc. all have distinct family and spiritual cultures that hardly disappeared when they came here.

There isn't going to be much point explaining it to you since you are unfamiliar with the terms and with the ideas behind them. However, the Maori idea of community is quite complex compared to the western one, and they don't line up very neatly. Maori society is divided into whanau (extended family), hapu (sub-tribe) and iwi (tribe). It should be noted these translations are approximations of Maori concepts.


Hardly. If your allegiance is first to any other community than your country then you're not a loyal citizen of the country.


You can be loyal to more than one community dammit.

What do you mean in 'white' society? It's hardly 'white' to do well in school, to not commit crimes, to get good jobs, etc. That's no more white than it is black in the Seychelles (ok, the Seychelles have a Creole culture, but you get the point). Saying that anything outside of poverty is 'white' culture only contributes to the problems.

White culture is one based on European concepts of land use and ownership, spirituality and community, rather than Maori ones.

Ok so how have they succeeded? Where's the improvement?

In iwi which have successfully prosecuted cases under the Waitangi tribunal, there has been a positive increase in most statistics.

[McP3000]

There isn't going to be much point explaining it to you since you are unfamiliar with the terms and with the ideas behind them. However, the Maori idea of community is quite complex compared to the western one, and they don't line up very neatly. Maori society is divided into whanau (extended family), hapu (sub-tribe) and iwi (tribe). It should be noted these translations are approximations of Maori concepts.
Cool, but Canadians dont live in tribes

You can be loyal to more than one community dammit.
ok

White culture is one based on European concepts of land use and ownership, spirituality and community, rather than Maori ones.
Stop saying cultures are simply tied to race.

[Smokey D]

Cool, but Canadians dont live in tribes


What's this? An analogy?

Stop saying cultures are simply tied to race.

I'm not. I'm saying there are different cultures that happen to be along racial lines. Are you going to say there isn't a European culture or non-European cultures?

[Reaganista]

No it's not segregation.....
yes it is
are you dense?

[Cocaine]

It can be seen as segregation based on the definition of giving minority groups their own institutions but you're making the implication that it's wholly negative, when it's not.

I'm arguing that it's not segregation based on the negative implications of the word.

[Reaganista]

i think negative connotations are apt for something as stupid and racist as this

[Smokey D]

I don't see why teaching African history or literature (I assume they don't teach Afromathmatics or blackonomics or whatever) is any more racist or not than teaching English history or American literature.

[Reaganista]

segregation is racist

[Smokey D]

Are white kids not allowed to go to these schools?

[McP3000]

I don't see why teaching African history or literature (I assume they don't teach Afromathmatics or blackonomics or whatever) is any more racist or not than teaching English history or American literature.
If you live in America, you should be taught American Literature.

whats your point. If its relevant, it should be taught...if its not it should be an elective.

Are white kids not allowed to go to these schools?
If they aren't then its obvious where this discussion will go.

If they are, they won't want to so i dont see the difference.

[Hoyle00cdn]

yes it is
are you dense?
Just because America is incapable of recognizing the value of cultural difference without resorting to racial segregation doesn't mean other countries can't. Don't be so narrow minded.

Calling me dense without providing and argument explaining why you're right, is about the IQ level of a child.

[Hoyle00cdn]

If you live in America, you should be taught American Literature.

whats your point. If its relevant, it should be taught...if its not it should be an elective.

That's a racist comment in itself and it sounds very similar to American Journalist Saul Bellow who said:

"When the Zulu produce a Tolstoy, we will read him."

What you're basically saying is 'Until a minority group proves their worth there's no point in paying attention to them'.

Are white kids not allowed to go to these schools?
Probably Yes, but you have to live within the school's boundaries.

[Reaganista]

Are white kids not allowed to go to these schools?

I don't know if they're allowed but they probably wont
and if they dont
then it's a racist segregated school

Just because America is incapable of recognizing the value of cultural difference without resorting to racial segregation doesn't mean other countries can't. Don't be so narrow minded
i dont care about your country
racial segregation is always racist
this is fairly simple

Calling me dense without providing and argument explaining why you're right, is about the IQ level of a child.
lol IQ has nothing to do with age smart guy

That's a racist comment in itself and it sounds very similar to American Journalist Saul Bellow who said:

"When the Zulu produce a Tolstoy, we will read him."

What you're basically saying is 'Until a minority group proves their worth there's no point in paying attention to them'.

you misinterpretted that quote it's actually more racist than you let on

[Danish]

Are white kids not allowed to go to these schools?

Of course they are; anyone can go. Ontario has publicly funded Catholic schools, which are open to everyone as well.

I suggest you read the whole thread, I posted about this point earlier.

The media is really driving a lot of this misinformation. Advocates aren't really given a voice, which is the problem in the first place.

[Hoyle00cdn]

I don't know if they're allowed but they probably wont
and if they dont
then it's a racist segregated school
Yes because you live in Toronto, so you'd know....


i dont care about your country
racial segregation is always racist
this is fairly simple
It's been explained to you more then once how it's not segregation, if you can't see that then you're the one being dense. According to your logic, the Olympic games would be a form of segregation too.


lol IQ has nothing to do with age smart guy
You knew exactly what I meant there, don't hide behind the concept of "child prodigy" to hide your inability to formulate a real argument


you misinterpretted that quote it's actually more racist than you let on

I know exactly what the quote means, I've done extensive research on the topic....

[Reaganista]

Yes because you live in Toronto, so you'd know....
no i live in philadelphia but i can your logical fallacies from here


It's been explained to you more then once how it's not segregation,
it is segregation

if you can't see that they you're the one being dense. According to your logic, the Olympic games would be a form of segregation too.

olympic contestants are not divided by race


You knew exactly what I meant there, don't hide behind the concept of "child prodigy" to hide your inability to formulate a real argument
actually you're still demonstrating that you don't understand how IQ works

I know exactly what the quote means, I've done extensive research on the topic....
well your one sentence explanation of it was totally off

[Hoyle00cdn]

no i live in philadelphia but i can your logical fallacies from here


it is segregation


olympic contestants are not divided by race


actually you're still demonstrating that you don't understand how IQ works

well your one sentence explanation of it was totally off
Despite all this gibberish, I've yet to see you actually provide a valid argument.

You can self proclaim yourself to be as right as you want, but until you prove it with an argument you're doing nothing but blow hot air.

[Reaganista]

ive stated my argument several times nobody's really responded to it except to dismiss it with fallacies

you're welcome to actually respond to my post if you'd like

[Hoyle00cdn]

ive stated my argument several times nobody's really responded to it except to dismiss it with fallacies

you're welcome to actually respond to my post if you'd like

I did respond to it......very thoroughly I might add.

No it's not segregation.....

I understand exactly where Cocaine is coming from.

It's not that one of us are right and the other wrong. The reason why we're looking at this differently is because our two countries come from completely different backgrounds.

From the start of American history (as far as I have been taught) there has always been a nucleus or homogeneous identity. IOW if you travel to 15 different American states (with the exception of maybe Hawaii and Alaska) and asked someone what it meant to be America, the answers would slightly very but the general identity would be the same.

In Canada this is less commonly found. From elementary school all the way to university the question "what is our Canadian identity?" is a very complicated question. There really is no common answer because what it means to be Canadian can vary from province to province.

What you are trying to do is answer a Canadian question with an American answer of homogeneity. The birth of Canada had no homogeneous identity, instead it was founded by a duel identity of both French and English cultures trying to co-exist. IOW from the birth of Canada the topic of cultural recognition was already a predominant debate and this debate has never disappeared.

Out of this tension has come the concept of Niche Identity. Niche Identity is the idea of feeling proud of two identities simultaneously without the need to prioritize them along an axiom of importance. Most Quebecois citizen of Canada are just as proud to be Canadian as they are to be Quebecois, they just don't like it when you ask them to prioritize the two identities. Allowing black children to experience an Afro-centric curriculum is no different then the province of Quebec making it mandatory for French children in Quebec to attend French oriented schools. It's a way of preserving French Canadien culture and with it a sense of pride.

You can deny the applicability of this sort of thinking all you want, but the fact remains that it has worked relatively well for Canada for the past century. Denying that is sort of an insult to my country's history.

To which you replied.....

No it's not segregation.....
yes it is
are you dense?
So you'll have to forgive me if I don't full understand your point of view, but your reply pretty much said nothing that proved my argument to be fallacies.

[Cocaine]

Are white kids not allowed to go to these schools?

They're allowed, it just won't be encouraged.

If you live in America, you should be taught American Literature.

Why do I have to keep saying MELTING POT? Don't you realize that your country employs a very different ethnic and cultural ideology than ours?

Of course they are; anyone can go. Ontario has publicly funded Catholic schools, which are open to everyone as well.
I think the thing to emphasize is that these Afrocentric schools are Alternative schools. The Alternative programs in Toronto are outstanding, but beyond that, are purely optional. They're not always "last resorts", ad they're nobody's homeschools.

They can't force anyone to go, it's not anyone's homeschool. But they can deny anyone they feel wouldnt fit as well. My Alt. school had an interview process if you wanted to go there.

[Reaganista]

So you'll have to forgive me if I don't full understand your point of view, but your reply pretty much said nothing that proved my argument to be fallacies.
actually none of your post had any relevance whatsoever as to the question of whether it's segregation or not
except for the part i quoted

the rest of your post was a bunch of retarded assumptions about america and racist apologetics which were intended to justify segregation, not address whether this is segregation or not

[Amit]

Why do I have to keep saying MELTING POT? Don't you realize that your country employs a very different ethnic and cultural ideology than ours?

it doesn't matter

ours is better than yours you poutine eating freedom hater

[chronopops]

lol IQ has nothing to do with age smart guy
You're kidding, right?

[Hoyle00cdn]

actually none of your post had any relevance whatsoever as to the question of whether it's segregation or not
except for the part i quoted

the rest of your post was a bunch of retarded assumptions about america and racist apologetics which were intended to justify segregation, not address whether this is segregation or not
Once again, you tip toed around providing a real answer.

*Explain to me HOW my post had no relevance please? Because my argument wasn't made up, it was borrowed from MANY academic scholars....Particularly Charles Taylor.

*How is it a retarded assumption?

*How is it racist apologetics which intend to justify segregation?

Please explain yourself, you throw out some awfully big blanket statements without actually explaining how they are justified.

Have you studied how racial politics has been handled in various different countries, because from what you have been telling me it appears that you haven't? You seem to be universalizing the politics of race as if America is the center of the universe when it comes to intellectual thought. This is not the case. Many different countries have handled these issues in different ways with varying success, so the American model is not THE only model out there and certainly not the only model that works.

[Hoyle00cdn]

it doesn't matter

ours is better than yours you poutine eating freedom hater

LOL!!!!!!

You actually think we're all French don't you?

[Amit]

yes! i am being totally serious too!

[Hoyle00cdn]

yes! i am being totally serious too!

that's sad.

[monkeysonmars.]

Raeganista: you're not answering the question
Hoyle00: no you're not answering the question
Raeganista: no u

[chronopops]

it's more like,

raeganista: you're not answering the question.
Hoyle00: I did answer the question, (shows where he answered the question)
raeganista: that doesn't answer the question and im not going to say why im just going to say that because i have no counterargument.

[Reaganista]

You're kidding, right?
no im not but im also not surprised that you dont know what IQ is either

Once again, you tip toed around providing a real answer.

*Explain to me HOW my post had no relevance please?
like i said
it didnt address whether it was segregration or not

*How is it a retarded assumption?

because it's obviously not true


*How is it racist apologetics which intend to justify segregation?

because that's what you set out to do and that's the method you chose
this is a stupid line of questioning please respond to my post that you ignored

Please explain yourself, you throw out some awfully big blanket statements without actually explaining how they are justified.

Have you studied how racial politics has been handled in various different countries, because from what you have been telling me it appears that you haven't? You seem to be universalizing the politics of race as if America is the center of the universe when it comes to intellectual thought. This is not the case. Many different countries have handled these issues in different ways with varying success, so the American model is not THE only model out there and certainly not the only model that works.
i dont care if racist systems have allegedly been sucessful in other countries theyre still racist

[chronopops]

no im not but im also not surprised that you dont know what IQ is either
Dude, you are really stupid.

Your IQ has to do with your mental age/chronological age.

Your age has everything to do with your IQ. You think a 10 year old with an IQ of 180 answered the same amount of questions correctly as a 30 year old with an IQ of 180? Do you not understand that your age factors your IQ, because it is directly related to your age.

http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/IQBasics.aspx

hey guys uh, you're wrong, and you totally don't get it, ill just keep saying that, because if i say it enough maybe people will start believing me!

[monkeysonmars.]

it's more like,

raeganista: you're not answering the question.
Hoyle00: I did answer the question, (shows where he answered the question)
raeganista: that doesn't answer the question and im not going to say why im just going to say that because i have no counterargument.

what i've got so far is,
'this is segregation'
'no it's not because it's an option'
'optional segregation is still segregation'
'it's not segregation'

if anyone wants to finish that debate it would be cool

[Hoyle00cdn]

no im not but im also not surprised that you dont know what IQ is either


like i said
it didnt address whether it was segregration or not


because it's obviously not true


because that's what you set out to do and that's the method you chose
this is a stupid line of questioning please respond to my post that you ignored


i dont care if racist systems have allegedly been sucessful in other countries theyre still racist

For the last time it's not segregation or racists.....you obviously know nothing about Canada, it saddens me.

You argue from the perspective "The only way to resolve the issue of race is to pretend race doesn't exist"

Pretending race doesn't exist does not help minorities who feel subjugated or inferior because of who they are.

I posted this a while back. I hope this helps.
Afro-centric curriculum:
While many of you have raised very interesting points, the purpose of an afro-centric curriculum is mostly for aesthetic purposes. It's hardly about segregation, but more about the politics of recognition.

An afro-centric curriculum is about recognizing the aesthetic idea that "Black-is-Beautiful". Most black children grow up reading and studying a curriculum completely derived out of white male authors. Whether it be Newton, Galileo, Socrates, Historical Leaders(military/politicians), etc they are all predominantly white. To us this commonality means nothing, but to blacks it could appear as a sense of insignificance, unaccomplished, and the aesthetic image of "ugliness". Advocates argue that this can have a dual affect on the way black children see their education system.

1. The education has failed me.
2. The black culture has failed the education system.

Neither impression is inspiring for black children to try harder at school.

An Afro-centric curriculum does not abandon the fundamental teaching of the standard curriculum, it simply adds courses and material that highlights black achievements. The end goal is to hopefully reverse any false image of insignificance, unaccomplished, "ugliness", and replacing it with the idea that "Black is Beautiful" therefore I can succeed.
It's not segregation, because it's the politics of recognition.

What you also have to understand is that the neighbourhood this afro-centric school will be placed, is in an area of Toronto that is predominantly made up of blacks already. It's not segregation because there's hardly any whites to segregate them from.

[Reaganista]

Dude, you are really stupid.

Your IQ has to do with your mental age/chronological age.

first of all mental age is a nonsensical concept
second he accused me of having the IQ of a child i corrected him

also the whole point of correcting for age that someone might do while calculating iq would be to remove the influencial of age thereby arriving at a result divorced from age


For the last time it's not segregation or racists.....you obviously know nothing about Canada, it saddens me.

it obviously is segregation just by definition
i suppose it could be debatable whether segregation is always racist but i think it is otherwise it wouldn't happen

You argue from the perspective "The only way to resolve the issue of race is to pretend race doesn't exist"

this is an excellent strawman


Pretending race doesn't exist does not help minorities who feel subjugated or inferior because of who they are.

I posted this a while back. I hope this helps.
you really stuck it to that strawman
you're welcome to start responding to any of the point i actually raised whenever you feel comfortable

[Amit]

that's sad.

sigh

[Reaganista]

It's not segregation, because it's the politics of recognition.

What you also have to understand is that the neighbourhood this afro-centric school will be placed, is in an area of Toronto that is predominantly made up of blacks already. It's not segregation because there's hardly any whites to segregate them from.
segregated school + segregated neighborhood = not segregation?
are you serious?

[Hoyle00cdn]

you're welcome to start responding to any of the point i actually raised whenever you feel comfortable

You're welcome to stop hiding behind ad hominems and red herrings and give a real argument whenever you feel comfortable.

[Reaganista]

ok i started 4 pages ago
or whenever i entered this thread
let's get on with it this is getting ridiculous

[Hoyle00cdn]

segregated school + segregated neighborhood = not segregation?
are you serious?

God it's not a segregated school......I don't know how many times I can explain this to you.....

the schools in this area are ALREADY made up of an overwhelming majority of black students. They're not bringing black students to an Afro-centric school, they're bring an Afro-centric curriculum to black students, there's a fundamental difference here that you're refusing to acknowledge because you trying to defend your ego and nothing else.

[Cocaine]

There's no reason to argue with Reaganista, he has no actual point.

[Hoyle00cdn]

There's no reason to argue with Reaganista, he has no actual point.

It's just sad....

because I thought he'd be willing to listen to the other side even if he doesn't agree with it.

[Smokey D]

To be honest, if they're discouraging white kids to attend and have a selection criteria based, in part or in full, on being blacked, it's moving towards racist.

[chronopops]

first of all mental age is a nonsensical concept
second he accused me of having the IQ of a child i corrected him

It's nonsensical because you're wrong, lol.

You are wrong, get over it bro.

[Reaganista]

God it's not a segregated school......I don't know how many times I can explain this to you.....

the schools in this area are ALREADY made up of an overwhelming majority of black students. They're not bringing black students to an Afro-centric school, they're bring an Afro-centric curriculum to black students, there's a fundamental difference here that you're refusing to acknowledge because you trying to defend your ego and nothing else.

an optional 'afrocentric' ciriculum is inherently segregationist

It's nonsensical because you're wrong, lol.

You are wrong, get over it bro.
you too are welcome to respond to what i said
but
if you actually think it makes sense to accuse someone of having the iq of a child then lmao u r retard

[Cocaine]

To be honest, if they're discouraging white kids to attend and have a selection criteria based, in part or in full, on being blacked, it's moving towards racist.

They aren't discouraging anyone but they're encouraging blacks. The biggest problem is that it's being marketed and called "black focused".

an optional 'afrocentric' ciriculum is inherently segregationist
then what's a mandatory eurocentric one?

[Hoyle00cdn]

To be honest, if they're discouraging white kids to attend and have a selection criteria based, in part or in full, on being blacked, it's moving towards racist.

I don't think they're discouraging white kids.....

What they don't tell you in that article is that this afro-centric curriculum is also meant to help battle another growing problem in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area)

Over the past 4 years, American gangs have been starting to set up shop in Toronto. Gang violence and gun violence has risen by something like 150%. American gangs like the Bloods and Cripts, and Oriental Blood Brothers have been spreading a strong influence among Toronto's youth in the less affluent areas.

It's not so much gang violence that is the major problem. The heart of the problem is that gang violence operates under a very profitable business sector. Drugs and prostitution may be illegal forms of business but they generate tons of money and LA centered american gangs have finally realized that the streets of Toronto are an untapped source of revenue. The past 4 years gang violence has been growing to alarming levels, largely because these gangs are fighting over influence in uncharted territories. Many Primary and secondary schools are slowly adopting mandatory school uniforms to help keep gang colors out of school classrooms. This is where true segregation can be found in the streets of Toronto. Gang colours.

Teenagers are constantly being taught to stay in school, but it's a hard message to sell when American street gangs setting up shop in Toronto are providing a dangerous yet empowering and profitable alternative to school.

An Afro-centric curriculum is meant to help combat and dissolve the segregation caused by gang violence, and show that the academic world can provide an empowering, profitable, and most of all safe future, for black youth caught up in the manipulation of gang violence. Gang violence is turning the black community of Toronto against itself. An Afro-centric curriculum, is one idea out of many, meant to help reunited the community.

[Reaganista]

They aren't discouraging anyone but they're encouraging blacks. The biggest problem is that it's being marketed and called "black focused".
encouraging one group and ignoring all others serves to discourage them

then what's a mandatory eurocentric one?
well it could be any number of things but if it's universal then it's obviously not segregationist

[Cocaine]

well it could be any number of things but if it's universal then it's obviously not segregationist
hypocrite.

encouraging one group and ignoring all others serves to discourage them
um. who is it discouraging? the standard curriculum is eurocentric. we have catholic schools. we have aboriginal schools. we have all kinds of schools. this is another option.

you really dont seem to understand the concept of multiculturalism.

[chronopops]

an optional 'afrocentric' ciriculum is inherently segregationist


you too are welcome to respond to what i said
but
if you actually think it makes sense to accuse someone of having the iq of a child then lmao u r retard

is that what i said? no.

i said IQ has everything to do with your age, and you said IQ had nothing to do with age.

you are wrong, you are an idiot.

[Reaganista]

is that what i said? no.

i said IQ has everything to do with your age, and you said IQ had nothing to do with age.

you are wrong, you are an idiot.

no it has nothing to do with age

[Cocaine]

it has nothing to do with this thread either

[chronopops]

no it has nothing to do with age

Uhm, i just proved to you that it does, you ****ing idiot.

your age is a determining factor in your IQ, you are a moron. gtfo.

[Reaganista]

hypocrite.

no but good try i guess


um. who is it discouraging?
everyone who it doesn't encourage
again fairly simple


the standard curriculum is eurocentric. we have catholic schools. we have aboriginal schools. we have all kinds of schools. this is another option.

you really dont seem to understand the concept of multiculturalism.
here's a bunch of things that are bad, let's have another one

Uhm, i just proved to you that it does, you ****ing idiot.

your age is a determining factor in your IQ, you are a moron. gtfo.
no it isn't

[chronopops]

dude reaganista you are an idiot, seriously, learn how to argue. you haven't provided one counterargument in this thread you just throw red herrings and ad hominems and think that it proves your point.

just because you say somebody is wrong or that something is segregationalist or racist doesn't mean it's so. you have to PROVE it. or provide support and commentary about why you believe it.

[Cocaine]

here's a bunch of things that are bad, let's have another one

how are they bad?

the country aims to represent everyones culture fairly and let them be proud about it rather than crush their spirits, revoke their culture and call them american.

you're arguing based on your complete ignorance.

[Reaganista]

dude reaganista you are an idiot, seriously, learn how to argue. you haven't provided one counterargument in this thread you just throw red herrings and ad hominems and think that it proves your point.
actually i havent
although ironically this is exactly what you are doing

how are they bad?

the country aims to represent everyones culture fairly and let them be proud about it rather than crush their spirits, revoke their culture and call them american.

you're arguing based on your complete ignorance.
catholic school is bad because religion is bad
aboriginal school is bad because it's segregationist and racist

[Hoyle00cdn]

Reaganista i left you a long reply at the bottom of page 7......

[Cocaine]

actually i havent
although ironically this is exactly what you are doing

all you've done is go THAT'S SEGREGATION BECAUSE I THINK EACH CULTURE BEING ABLE TO LEARN A CANADIAN CURRICULUM WITH A RELEVANT CULTURAL SLANT IS WRONG.

[chronopops]

actually i havent
although ironically this is exactly what you are doing

Uhm...yes you have...you moron, go read the thread again.

And I have offered you evidence to support my claim, and all you had to say was "uh...well you said , this." wherein i showed you i did not say that, and you were still wrong. and now you're just saying age has nothing to do with someone's IQ all over again.

You are an idiot.

[Reaganista]

all you've done is go THAT'S SEGREGATION BECAUSE I THINK EACH CULTURE BEING ABLE TO LEARN A CANADIAN CURRICULUM WITH A RELEVANT CULTURAL SLANT IS WRONG.
http://images.buycostumes.com/mgen/merchandiser/27257.jpg
go back and try again

Uhm...yes you have...you moron, go read the thread again.

And I have offered you evidence to support my claim, and all you had to say was "uh...well you said , this." wherein i showed you i did not say that, and you were still wrong. and now you're just saying age has nothing to do with someone's IQ all over again.

You are an idiot.
it doesnt

[Hoyle00cdn]

here's a bunch of things that are bad, let's have another one

actually the graduation rate is higher in Catholic high schools then in Public high schools, so they must be doing something right in Ontario.

[Cocaine]

http://images.buycostumes.com/mgen/merchandiser/27257.jpg
go back and try again

Good job, you took an intro to critical thinking course. The irony of that post was great though.

[Reaganista]

Reaganista i left you a long reply at the bottom of page 7......

actually it was a reply to smokey d and it was pretty ridiculous are you sure you want to avoid addressing my response to that too?

[chronopops]

http://images.buycostumes.com/mgen/merchandiser/27257.jpg
go back and try again


it doesnt

i just proved that it does, and you saying "it doesn"T and nothing else does not refute or even counter my PROOF.

jesus christ. someone ban this kid.

[Reaganista]

actually the graduation rate is higher in Catholic high schools then in Public high schools, so they must be doing something right in Ontario.

this is of staggering irrelevance

[Hoyle00cdn]

catholic school is bad because religion is bad
aboriginal school is bad because it's segregationist and racist

Actually there are no aboriginal schools in Ontario, and CBC did a 2 hour documentary of Aboriginal students attending public schools, and how their grades are among the worst in the province, because most of the kids feel that the education system is white-centric so they lose hope.

[Hoyle00cdn]

this is of staggering irrelevance

Say's who you?

please provide an argument proving why it is? don't just claim something to be fact without proving it.

[Reaganista]

i just proved that it does, and you saying "it doesn"T and nothing else does not refute or even counter my PROOF.

jesus christ. someone ban this kid.

the only proof you've ever offered was your own insistance that you'd proven something

[Cocaine]

Actually there are no aboriginal schools in Ontario, and CBC did a 2 hour d0cumentary of Aboriginal students attending public schools, and how their grades are among the worst in the province, because most of the kids feel that the education system is white-centric so they lose hope.

When I brought them up, I meant that it's been at least partially instituted. There is at least one that I know of, though.

I was merely saying that there's an attempt (a failed one or not) being made. Not that I think they're adequately representing anyone, but it's a start.

[Hoyle00cdn]

actually it was a reply to smokey d and it was pretty ridiculous are you sure you want to avoid addressing my response to that too?

It's was addressed to you to.

You're the pure definition of a neo-bigot.

[Hoyle00cdn]

When I brought them up, I meant that it's been at least partially instituted. There is at least one that I know of, though.

I was merely saying that there's an attempt (a failed one or not) being made. Not that I think they're adequately representing anyone, but it's a start.

I wasn't arguing against you. They are trying to implement aboriginal-centric curriculums to battle this growing problem. so in a way you are correct.

[Reaganista]

Say's who you?

please provide an argument proving why it is? don't just claim something to be fact without proving it.
religion is bad for reasons other than the graduation rate of studets in religious schools
surely you must understand the concept of irrelevance

Actually there are no aboriginal schools in Ontario, and CBC did a 2 hour documentary of Aboriginal students attending public schools, and how their grades are among the worst in the province, because most of the kids feel that the education system is white-centric so they lose hope.
maybe stop raising aboriginals who feel the need to be segregated

It's was addressed to you to.

You're the pure definition of a neo-bigot.
no im not
and no it was a response to something smokey d said not me

[Cocaine]

maybe stop raising aboriginals who feel the need to be segregated
yeah **** their culture, millions of years on this land, heritage. let's just turn 'em all white.

[Reaganista]

yeah **** their culture, millions of years on this land, heritage. let's just turn 'em all white.

http://images.buycostumes.com/mgen/merchandiser/27257.jpg

[Cocaine]

http://images.buycostumes.com/mgen/merchandiser/27257.jpg

You brought it up, it's not a strawperson if I'm replying to what you unearthed. Well, I brought it up as a supporting point to my argument. You brought it up because you have no argument.

You want to talk strawperson you should also talk about all the diversionary tactics you've used. You know, like the post I just quoted.

[Hoyle00cdn]

religion is bad for reasons other than the graduation rate of studets in religious schools
surely you must understand the concept of irrelevance
Well we're not talking about the existence of god or the truth of religion, we're talking about segregation remember. You've been throwing that point down my throat for 4 pages now.

The fact is you don't have to be Catholic to attend a Catholic highschool in Ontario. I had many friends who weren't Catholic.

They teach the fundamentals of Every religion by the 11th grade, so no they don't brainwash you to be one specific religion.


maybe stop raising aboriginals who feel the need to be segregated

that is the most racist thing I've heard in this thread.

[Hoyle00cdn]

http://images.buycostumes.com/mgen/merchandiser/27257.jpg

I love it when you post this image, because you use whenever you can't formulate a real argument.

[PerpetualBurn]

Only a racist would want to integrate the races.

I love it when you post this image, because you use whenever you can't formulate a real argument.

Sometimes it's hard to express how much I love irony. But I really do.

[Hoyle00cdn]

Only a racist would want to integrate the races.



Sometimes it's hard to express how much I love irony. But I really do.

smooth words from someone who has yet to provide and argument himself.

[Reaganista]

Well we're not talking about the existence of god or the truth of religion, we're talking about segregation remember. You've been throwing that point down my throat for 4 pages now.
ill talk about whatever the **** i want religion is bad because everything about it is a lie

The fact is you don't have to be Catholic to attend a Catholic highschool in Ontario. I had many friends who weren't Catholic.

again optional segregation is still segregation

They teach the fundamentals of Every religion by the 11th grade, so no they don't brainwash you to be one specific religion.

except for the ones who wind up as lifelong catholics

that is the most racist thing I've heard in this thread.
well i guess except for all the people who thought it was a good idea to make a seperate school for the blacks
apparently in order to keep them from joining those dangerous LA based street gangs!


http://images.buycostumes.com/mgen/merchandiser/27257.jpg
I love it when you post this image, because you use whenever you can't formulate a real argument.
if we had sigs this would be mine
You brought it up, it's not a strawperson if I'm replying to what you unearthed. Well, I brought it up as a supporting point to my argument. You brought it up because you have no argument.

You want to talk strawperson you should also talk about all the diversionary tactics you've used. You know, like the post I just quoted.
it's a stawman because you turned my argument into something completely different so that it would be easier for you to attack

[chronopops]

Only a racist would want to integrate the races.

Only a racist would want to erase the cultural identity of every ethnic group and make them act "like us" because it's "how it should be".

[Cocaine]

well i guess except for all the people who thought it was a good idea to make a seperate school for the blacks
apparently in order to keep them from joining those dangerous LA based street gangs!
It's to address the obvious issue that a lot of black youth, in gangs or not, aren't interested in learning within a course that's not geared towards their interests or culture at all, something that greatly conflicts the most primary element of Canada's ethnic policies.

Why is it wrong to have an afrocentric curriculum yet the eurocentric one is clearly not bad at all?

The key is to note it's "afrocentric" and not black focused. Black focused is how it was handled in the media, and that's what I took issue with.

[Hoyle00cdn]

ill talk about whatever the **** i want religion is bad because everything about it is a lie


again optional segregation is still segregation


except for the ones who wind up as lifelong catholics


well i guess except for all the people who thought it was a good idea to make a seperate school for the blacks
apparently in order to keep them from joining those dangerous LA based street gangs!

You just don't get it, it's really sad.

Have you studied racial politics?

[chronopops]

of course its because the eurocentric one isn't eurocentric at all its just "Regular".

again white=human

[PerpetualBurn]

smooth words from someone who has yet to provide and argument himself.

Lol.

Only a racist would want to erase the cultural identity of every ethnic group and make them act "like us" because it's "how it should be".

Reaganista already posted the appropriate link.

[Cocaine]

not a melting pot.

[Hoyle00cdn]

it's a stawman because you turned my argument into something completely different so that it would be easier for you to attack

NO!!!!! this is what YOU'RE doing.....

We've provided you with several explanations as to how/why this curriculum is being implemented.

And all you keep doing is twist our words so you can recycle the same "voluntary segregation is still segregation"....

I don't even think you know what voluntary segregation is.
I guess if you had your way, China-town and Little-Italy regions wouldn't exist.

Have you ever thought that forced integration causes immigrants to lose their cultural identity?

[Reaganista]

It's to address the obvious issue that a lot of black youth, in gangs or not, aren't interested in learning within a course that's not geared towards their interests or culture at all, something that greatly conflicts the most primary element of Canada's ethnic policies.
that is in no way a black only issue

Why is it wrong to have an afrocentric curriculum yet the eurocentric one is clearly not bad at all?

this strawman routine is getting old
everyone should learn the same cirriculum regardless of what race they identify as
whether or not that cirriculum could use improvements isnt relevant to this

The key is to note it's "afrocentric" and not black focused. Black focused is how it was handled in the media, and that's what I took issue with.
are you saying there's a substantial difference between 'afrocentric' and 'black focused'?
besides saying something like 'not all africans are black'

[Cocaine]

everyone should learn the same cirriculum regardless of what race they identify as
whether or not that cirriculum could use improvements isnt relevant to this

Everyone should learn a curriculum that's totally irrelevant to their culture and heritage, even though our country says that should never, ever be the case? Everyone should learn under a curriculum that's relevant to everyone. But right now, the standard curriculum is Eurocentric. The idea behind this is the Eurocentric slant is changed to a more pertinent one. Everyone still learns the same basic facets of Canadian history, maths, sciences, etc.

are you saying there's a substantial difference between 'afrocentric' and 'black focused'?
besides saying something like 'not all africans are black'

Place the value on culture, not race. Semantics play a pretty big role.

this strawman routine is getting old
I may not always address your point, but that's because you rarely have one. I've always posted and argued in relation to the greater issue, while all you've done is attempt to fault me with your elementary knowledge of critical thinking and lack of an actual point.

[Hoyle00cdn]

that is in no way a black only issue
How do you know?

You don't live here, and after listening to the things that come out of your mouth for the last several pages, you know nothing about Canada, even though you act as if you do.

You're a typical neo-bigot.

neo-bigot: someone who hides behind liberalism to suppress the cultural identity of minorities.

[Cocaine]

that is in no way a black only issue
It isn't. And that's why there are other schools being created and other curriculums being tested.

But the issue with "blacks" is the most pressing. An alarming number of them are not graduating.

Have you not been paying attention this whole time? Too busy googling Wizard of Oz costumes?

[Reaganista]

Everyone should learn a curriculum that's totally irrelevant to their culture and heritage,
everyone should learn the same circiculum

even though our country says that should never, ever be the case?

no you obviously dont think that otherwise you wouldnt have a ciriculum 'irrelevant' to so many student's cultures

Everyone should learn under a curriculum that's relevant to everyone. But right now, the standard curriculum is Eurocentric.
the obvious answer is to fix that
if the goal is to teach everyone a curriculum relevant to everyone's culture then segegration is the most counterproductive thing possible

The idea behind this is the Eurocentric slant is changed to a more pertinent one. Everyone still learns the same basic facets of Canadian history, maths, sciences, etc.

seperate is inherently unequal

Place the value on culture, not race. Semantics play a pretty big role.

ya but it is a racist policy so isn't race the proper place to put emphasis?

I may not always address your point, but that's because you rarely have one. I've always posted and argued in relation to the greater issue, while all you've done is attempt to fault me with your elementary knowledge of critical thinking and lack of an actual point.
im going to point out whenever you try to refute my arguments with logical fallacies regardless of how elementary it is

[Cocaine]

everyone should learn the same circiculum
not a melting pot, irrelevant.

no you obviously dont think that otherwise you wouldnt have a ciriculum 'irrelevant' to so many student's cultures
it's a fault that's being addressed with schools such as this, but nice try.

if the goal is to teach everyone a curriculum relevant to everyone's culture then segegration is the most counterproductive thing possible
you can't work in an untested curriculum.

im going to point out whenever you try to refute my arguments with logical fallacies regardless of how elementary it is
you've yet to actually provide an argument. a conclusion is not an argument.

[McP3000]

Reaganista is making a complete *** out of himself

but he's right.

All the curriculums taught in public schools should be the same, and all the public schools should have the same electives.

not a melting pot, irrelevant.
What are you talking about. Please expand on why teaching kids the same thing is "irrelevant"
and how are kitchen utensils relevant at all

[chronopops]

everyone should learn the same circiculum
The only reason you say this is because the current ciriculum is eurocentric, therefore you have no reaction to it, because it's always about your culture. You refuse to acknowledge the impact such things have on ethnic groups.

Saying "fix it" doesn't fix it. We've been trying to fix it for decades, and it hasn't worked, this is the alternative.

[Reaganista]

How do you know?

You don't live here, and after listening to the things that come out of your mouth for the last several pages, you know nothing about Canada, even though you act as if you do.

You're a typical neo-bigot.

neo-bigot: someone who hides behind liberalism to suppress the cultural identity of minorities.
because no one is interested in learning a curiculum not geared to their culture or interests

stop with this idiotic empiricism some things are logically self evident

The only reason you say this is because the current ciriculum is eurocentric, therefore you have no reaction to it, because it's always about your culture. You refuse to acknowledge the impact such things have on ethnic groups.

Saying "fix it" doesn't fix it. We've been trying to fix it for decades, and it hasn't work, this is the alternative.
it's not an alternative it's completely contrary to the stated purpose

[Cocaine]

All the curriculums taught in public schools should be the same, and all the public schools should have the same electives.

Curriculums are very broad and open ended. The afrocentric curriculum would only vary in historical and sociological (and perhaps philosophical) aspects.

This provides the option to learn in a slant more relevant to you.

Should the grand curriculum appeal to all cultures? Yeah. But that's easier said than done, given the cultural variation of a city like Toronto.

it's not an alternative it's completely contrary to the stated purpose
No it's definitely an alternative.

[Smokey D]

The only reason you say this is because the current ciriculum is eurocentric, therefore you have no reaction to it, because it's always about your culture. You refuse to acknowledge the impact such things have on ethnic groups.

Saying "fix it" doesn't fix it. We've been trying to fix it for decades, and it hasn't worked, this is the alternative.

More relevant question. How are current black people in North America in any way culturally African?

[chronopops]

it's not an alternative it's completely contrary to the stated purpose
No it isn't.

If schools have failed to provide a multicultural cirriculum in this expanse of time what is going to make them do it now? What is different now? Nothing.

Therefore, the only option to provide such an experience is THIS.

[chronopops]

More relevant question. How are current black people in North America in any way culturally African?

Are you suggesting African Americans are not culturally African? What would you say they were then, culturally?

[McP3000]

More relevant question. How are current black people in North America in any way culturally African?
i know

they think that defining peoples races and giving them assigned cultures isn't racist

[Reaganista]

not a melting pot, irrelevant.

not learning the same curriculum is inherently disadvantageous to someone
it has nothing to do with a melting pot

it's a fault that's being addressed with schools such as this, but nice try.

except this school doesnt cater to all blacks and other minorities have no special school
thus
it's not something you think should never ever happen since it's happening right now

you can't work in an untested curriculum.

what
then test it
how the **** is that relevant


you've yet to actually provide an argument. a conclusion is not an argument.
unless im just posting to laugh at someone, all of my posts contain arguments or are part of arguments
often several

[McP3000]

Are you suggesting African Americans are not culturally African? What would you say they were then, culturally?
American

because they aren't African American. They're black.

[Cocaine]

How are current black people in North America in any way culturally African?
This is one of the issues at hand. You can still simplify it down to the point of a black person wanting to learn about Martin Luther King than Christopher Columbus.

I know that's a horrible example (you should learn about both), but hopefully you sort of get what I'm saying.

then test it
how the **** is that relevant
That's what they're doing.

American

because they aren't African American. They're black.
Melting pot says they're American, yeah. Canada isn't a melting pot so it has nothing to do with this particular issue.

[Reaganista]

Are you suggesting African Americans are not culturally African? What would you say they were then, culturally?
american
is this is a serious question

[Hoyle00cdn]

All the curriculums taught in public schools should be the same, and all the public schools should have the same electives.

I understand your point here and it's very valid and optimistic.

But the question we also need to ask ourselves is....

"How does forced integration help preserve the unique cultural identity of minorities?"

[Amit]

Are you suggesting African Americans are not culturally African? What would you say they were then, culturally?

they're culturally african american

are you retarded

[Cocaine]

they're culturally african american

are you retarded

That's the point these schools are trying to make here (replace American with Canadian).

They feel an African Canadian might be unintested in a Euro-Canadian curriculum, and that it might be why there's such a low success rate.

[Amit]

That's the point these schools are trying to make here (replace American with Canadian).

They feel an African Canadian might be unintested in a Euro-Canadian curriculum, and that it might be why there's such a low success rate.

wait so is there a lot of african canadian culture out there or what or will they be learning about kunta kinte lolol

[Cocaine]

I meant a blend of African and Canadian history/culture.

[chronopops]

american
is this is a serious question

and this is why you do not understand anything in this fred.

[chronopops]

they're culturally african american

are you retarded

had to drop in for the ad hominem, huh amit?

do you have anything to add to the discussion or are you just being an annoying bastard as usual>?

[chronopops]

American

because they aren't African American. They're black.

No uh, they're african american...bro...you can call them black, and they won't mind, but it means the same thing.

[Smokey D]

Are you suggesting African Americans are not culturally African? What would you say they were then, culturally?

Given that the vast majority of black people in America are descended from slaves shipped over before 1807 and that a similar amount do not speak any African languages, practice African religions or live according social norms African, I'd say that for the most part they're not culturally African. What they are, I'm not so sure. Broadly speaking, most blacks in North America are westerners. They speak western languages, are constantly barraged with and subsequently repeat western philosophy, media, technology and societal norms. More narrowly, however, it could be argued (probably quite rightly) that there is a specific sub-set of western culture practiced by a significant proportion of black Americans, and that this culture is, in effect, African-American.

This is one of the issues at hand. You can still simplify it down to the point of a black person wanting to learn about Martin Luther King than Christopher Columbus.


But you're saying being black makes you culturally African. I don't think so. Being black makes you black, and it might make you more likely to affiliate with a black sub-culture, whatever that is.

Melting pot says they're American, yeah. Canada isn't a melting pot so it has nothing to do with this particular issue.

I don't know what melting pot says, but history says they are not African. Unless they've come from Africa within the past few generations and haven't had their culture destroyed by a slave state.

[Reaganista]

and this is why you do not understand anything in this fred.

what i gather from this is you do not know what culture is or how it is transmitted

[Cocaine]

I think part of the idea is to restore their cultural identity. Obviously the Canadian multicultural ideology gets a little messy with blacks.

[chronopops]

Smokey, unexamined cultural identity doesn't mean you're not part of a culture, or connected to it.

[chronopops]

what i gather from this is you do not know what culture is or how it is transmitted

You have a very deep misunderstanding of what "American" means and what it is perceived as meaning to other ethnic groups. There's a reason people that aren't of European descent in America like to be referred to as Japanese Americans, African Americans, etc. It's because American is interpreted as and means "white".

Again, you really have no knowledge about anything discussed in this thread so I'm not sure why you're still here.

[Smokey D]

Smokey, unexamined cultural identity doesn't mean you're not part of a culture, or connected to it.

Yeah, but so what? I'm willing to bet that 95% of black people in America do not think like Africans in Africa. This means they aren't culturally African.

[Hoyle00cdn]

I just want one question answered....

"How does forced integration help preserve the unique cultural identity of minorities?"

[Reaganista]

You have a very deep misunderstanding of what "American" means and what it is perceived as meaning to other ethnic groups. There's a reason people that aren't of European descent in America like to be referred to as Japanese Americans, African Americans, etc. It's because American is interpreted as and means "white".

no
it doesn't

Again, you really have no knowledge about anything discussed in this thread so I'm not sure why you're still here.
actually i do but you are very stupid

[chronopops]

no
it doesn't
Yes it does.

Ask Hoyle about it, he has a masters political science and wrote his thesis about this ****.

You have no knowledge of this topic, and it shows.

actually i do but you are very stupid
You have demonstrated for 11 pages that you do not.

[Reaganista]

No it's definitely an alternative.

No it isn't.

If schools have failed to provide a multicultural cirriculum in this expanse of time what is going to make them do it now? What is different now? Nothing.

Therefore, the only option to provide such an experience is THIS.
if your purpose is to further segregate society by race then yeah sure it's an alternative

it's completely contrray to your goals if they are as you claim to give everyone an education relevant to all cultures

[chronopops]

if your purpose is to further segregate society by race then yeah sure it's an alternative
It's not segregation as many people have explained multiple times throughout the thread...

You seem to be clinging to this like your baby blanket...

[Reaganista]

Yes it does.

Ask Hoyle about it, he has a masters political science and wrote his thesis about this ****.

You have no knowledge of this topic, and it shows.

sweet appeal to authority

also it would be hilarious if the guy who's been ragging on me this whole time for not being from toronto wrote his thesis on america that would be amazing plz let it be true

It's not segregation as many people have explained multiple times throughout the thread...

You seem to be clinging to this like your baby blanket.
i have utterly refuted all 'explainations'

[chronopops]

sweet appeal to authority

also it would be hilarious if the guy who's been ragging on me this whole time for not being from toronto wrote his thesis on america that would be amazing plz let it be true

sweet ignorance.

i can tell from everything you've said in this thread that you've never taken a course or read a book about race issues in America, or any country for that matter.

it's really sad that you attempt to speak with such authority about something you have no clue about.

[chronopops]

sweet appeal to authority

also it would be hilarious if the guy who's been ragging on me this whole time for not being from toronto wrote his thesis on america that would be amazing plz let it be true


i have utterly refuted all 'explainations'

You haven't refuted anything, you've yet to provide a counterargument to any argument in this thread.

[Cocaine]

it's an appeal to authority but he only pointed it out because you've completely ignored everything Hoyle has said.

[Smokey D]

So guys, what about my question?

[Anglachel]

its awesome that chronopops is still stupid enough to continue this when hes convinced tway is talking out of his *** and wont change

[chronopops]

i have nothing better to do, im trying to put off writing an english paper.

[Reaganista]

sweet ignorance.

i can tell from everything you've said in this thread that you've never taken a course or read a book about race issues in America, or any country for that matter.

it's really sad that you attempt to speak with such authority about something you have no clue about.
yes anyone who evaluates your arguments and rejects them is clearly uneducated this is hardly a novel tactic
You haven't refuted anything, you've yet to provide a counterargument to any argument in this thread.
i have also utterly refuted this allegation

[Cocaine]

So guys, what about my question?

Which? I thought I answered one?

[chronopops]

yes anyone who evaluates your arguments and rejects them is clearly uneducated this is hardly a novel tactic

Hey im ragapasta i respond to any point i cant counter by saying it's wrong, and not even explaining WHY i think that, it's just true! it's true, i swear it is!

i have also utterly refuted this allegation
oh, you're so witty. you told me you refuted my allegation there you did! but wait...you didn't...but i suppose saying you did is good enough.

ok, i see what you did there.

[Reaganista]

it's an appeal to authority but he only pointed it out because you've completely ignored everything Hoyle has said.
ive responded to and refuted dozens of his posts

[Smokey D]

Where I said 'how many blacks in North America are culturally African?' I suppose I should add 'If the number is, as I suspect, very small, what good is an Afrocentric (rather than black-focused, as you have repeatedly made clear there is a distinction) education since it will teach very few things relevant to either Canadians or black people living in North America?

[Hoyle00cdn]

Yeah, but so what? I'm willing to bet that 95% of black people in America do not think like Africans in Africa. This means they aren't culturally African.

French Canadians from Quebec do not think like the French in France, this does not mean they are not culturally unique.

Second of all not all of Africa is one culture, just like how Europeans aren't just one culture either.

[chronopops]

ive responded to and refuted dozens of his posts

no you haven't.

saying "that's wrong" is not refuting.

[Hoyle00cdn]

ive responded to and refuted dozens of his posts

no you haven't.

[Cocaine]

Where I said 'how many blacks in North America are culturally African?' I suppose I should add 'If the number is, as I suspect, very small, what good is an Afrocentric (rather than black-focused, as you have repeatedly made clear there is a distinction) education since it will teach very few things relevant to either Canadians or black people living in North America?

Well I still think the idea is to teach them about "black culture". Tyat's why I said it gets messy, because as you point out much of their afrocentric culture was and has been eradicated. You have to find the point of reference to go from and that's where I start to get lost on how I feel.

But arguing purely out of the fact that Canada is multicultural, I'm for it. Hope this makes sense, I'm running out of things to say at this point, hah.

[Smokey D]

French Canadians from Quebec to not think like the French in France, this does not mean they are not culturally unique.

Yeah, I know. That's not the point.

See: 'If the number is, as I suspect, very small, what good is an Afrocentric (rather than black-focused, as you have repeatedly made clear there is a distinction) education since it will teach very few things relevant to either Canadians or black people living in North America?'

Second of all not all of Africa is one culture, just like how Europeans aren't just one culture either.

Irrelevant because pretty much no one in America thinks like any African, except those that have been thoroughly westernised.

Well I still think the idea is to teach them about "black culture". Tyat's why I said it gets messy, because as you point out much of their afrocentric culture was and has been eradicated. You have to find the point of reference to go from and that's where I start to get lost on how I feel.

That's cool. I just want to make it clear that learning about Maya Angelou and Martin Luther King is not Afrocentric.

[Amit]

I meant a blend of African and Canadian history/culture.

except most african americans (canadians included) aren't interested at all in african culture

had to drop in for the ad hominem, huh amit?

i'm only following your lead with what you've said to tway

do you have anything to add to the discussion or are you just being an annoying bastard as usual>?

oh great i'm annoying because i'm right ok well that's really mature

[chronopops]

i'm only following your lead with what you've said to tway
What's a tway?

And you know better than to act like me, Amit. I'm a shreddie, you should know better.

oh great i'm annoying because i'm right ok well that's really mature
You're not right...though...you're just being annoying. Got anything to add to the topic or are you just dropping in again to be irrelevant and confrontational?

[McP3000]

I understand your point here and it's very valid and optimistic.

But the question we also need to ask ourselves is....

"How does forced integration help preserve the unique cultural identity of minorities?"
What? Have you ever been to an American public school. The kids don't give a flying **** what is taught. They do what they want when they go home.
"Hey mom! I learned about Europeans today, IM GOING TO BE WHITE NOW"

This is absurd that you think people are so impressionable and stupid.

they're culturally african american

are you retarded
Technically yes, but i dislike the use of American at the end of other country's to describe people.
Am i a European American? No. Im an American who is white.

That's the point these schools are trying to make here (replace American with Canadian).

They feel an African Canadian might be unintested in a Euro-Canadian curriculum, and that it might be why there's such a low success rate.
There is a low success rate because they are ascribing to a subculture's mindset who dislikes school. I has nothing about whats being taught.
I took a Chinese History course earlier last year an got an A-.
This is absurdity.

wait so is there a lot of african canadian culture out there or what or will they be learning about kunta kinte lolol
I know. Because the "African Canadian" has been such a prominent figure in Canada's history.

No uh, they're african american...bro...you can call them black, and they won't mind, but it means the same thing.
See, it doesn't. Because "African American" appeals to nationality and "black" appeals to race.

I think part of the idea is to restore their cultural identity. Obviously the Canadian multicultural ideology gets a little messy with blacks.
First off, the government is responsible for restoring their cultural identity.
Secondly, they have a cultural identity...the blatant disregard for education

Smokey, unexamined cultural identity doesn't mean you're not part of a culture, or connected to it.
You cant be part of a culture you know nothing about
AM PART OF THE GERMAN CULTURE BECAUSE IM 25% GERMAN

Yeah, but so what? I'm willing to bet that 95% of black people in America do not think like Africans in Africa. This means they aren't culturally African.
Agreed.

I just want one question answered....

"How does forced integration help preserve the unique cultural identity of minorities?"
How does integration affect cultural identity at all?

[Hoyle00cdn]

Yeah, I know. That's not the point.

See: 'If the number is, as I suspect, very small, what good is an Afrocentric (rather than black-focused, as you have repeatedly made clear there is a distinction) education since it will teach very few things relevant to either Canadians or black people living in North America?'

You mean how many Canadians are African ethnic?

I think it's a small percentage, but most of them are concetrated in Southern Ontario, particularly in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area).

so in terms of population density, yeah it's significant.

[chronopops]

Technically yes, but i dislike the use of American at the end of other country's to describe people.
Am i a European American? No. Im an American who is white.
But American is white that's why the european label is superfluous.

See, it doesn't. Because "African American" appeals to nationality and "black" appeals to race.
It actually appeals to both, tbh.

You cant be part of a culture you know nothing about
AM PART OF THE GERMAN CULTURE BECAUSE IM 25% GERMAN
Yes actually.

How does integration affect cultural identity at all?
It forces it out of the people that are forced to integrate.

[Amit]

What's a tway?

reaganista

And you know better than to act like me, Amit. I'm a shreddie, you should know better.

oh look now you're trying to be irrelevant

You're not right...though...you're just being annoying. Got anything to add to the topic or are you just dropping in again to be irrelevant and confrontational?

i like how you're calling me annoying, irrelevant, and confrontational when you post a non sequitur to try and back out of your previous actions and declare that i'm not right without even setting out to prove me wrong

contradiction != proper argument

Technically yes, but i dislike the use of American at the end of other country's to describe people.
Am i a European American? No. Im an American who is white.

you can dislike it as much as you want, but i'm simply using what they themselves refer to their own culture as

and err

AFRICA IS NOT A COUNTRY

[McP3000]

Well I still think the idea is to teach them about "black culture". Tyat's why I said it gets messy, because as you point out much of their afrocentric culture was and has been eradicated. You have to find the point of reference to go from and that's where I start to get lost on how I feel.

But arguing purely out of the fact that Canada is multicultural, I'm for it. Hope this makes sense, I'm running out of things to say at this point, hah.
When you get down to the nuts and bolts, the canadian government is singling out a single "race" of people, and trying to cater to them with a new race-oriented curriculum.
Sounds like the South before 1950 to me.

[chronopops]

oh look now you're trying to be irrelevant
This entire exchange is irrelevant so I don't see how becoming more irrelevant when it's already irrelevant is an issue.

[Reaganista]

no you haven't.

saying "that's wrong" is not refuting.

no it's correcting
ive had to do that a lot too

[McP3000]

you can dislike it as much as you want, but i'm simply using what they themselves refer to their own culture as

and err
AFRICA IS NOT A COUNTRY
i know that
i just didn't feel like pointing out semantics because im lazy

happy?

oh and they say black a lot more than "african american"

[chronopops]

no it's correcting
ive had to do that a lot too

rofl. you're kidding right?

you understand that saying "you're wrong" is not refuting, nor is it correcting because you haven't provided the correction or the the refutation you've just said "that's wrong."

...you have not refuted anything in this thread....

[Amit]

oh and they say black a lot more than "african american"

yeah that's very true

but when they code switch, they call it african american instead of black

[McP3000]

But American is white that's why the european label is superfluous.
No
you think that because you're a presumptuous racist.

It actually appeals to both, tbh.
No. If you look at the words closely one has to deal with nationality and countries "African" and "American". While "black" has to do with their skin color.
Would i be an African American if i were white and born in South Africa? (assuming i moved to America later)

Yes actually.
Enlighten me. How am i part of the germanic culture if i do not participate in it.

It forces it out of the people that are forced to integrate.
This is a false assumption. First off, they don't have to live in Canada and be zoned to Canadian schools. Secondly, they aren't forced to do anything in school except learn. And that's even up for discussion.
Thirdly, I COULD SAY THE SAME THING AGAINST INTEGRATING ALL WHITE AND ALL BLACK SCHOOLS

[Cocaine]

When you get down to the nuts and bolts, the canadian government is singling out a single "race" of people, and trying to cater to them with a new race-oriented curriculum.
Sounds like the South before 1950 to me.

Well, thats because they're the ones with the most alarming statistics. I'm not disagreeing though.

[Hoyle00cdn]

How does integration affect cultural identity at all?

Hmm it does....

This is how Canadian and American history differ.

In Canada, Quebec identity has been a hug issue. The province has threatened to separate twice on protest that the integrity of their unique French culture was being threatened. By threatened I mean, they feared that economic, political and social forces by English Canada would slowly dissolve the French language, culture and tradition in Quebec, until their French identity was nothing more then a last name.

In response to this there are many French laws in Quebec that are meant to help preserve their unique culture. All French children in Quebec MUST attend french schools, and this law has existed for decades....and it's never created much segregation.

[McP3000]

yeah that's very true

but when they code switch, they call it african american instead of black
Code switch?
You mean those racist labels in standardized tests?
Those things shouldn't exist.