NAFTA, WTO, and other trade agreements.

[gregulus]

Just out of general curiosity, do you find such agreements to be more detrimental than they are worth, or do you support them?

[Danish]

Only those with the most devout faith in the market support free trade, and business. It has clearly gutted the industrial base of North America and accelerated inequality. And let's not forget the detrimental effects on the South.

But I think it's more appropriate to look at "free trade" as part of a larger neoliberal project.

[lfantwister]

ohno! a neoliberal conspiracy project!!

free trade is beneficial to everyone. NAFTA and WTO shouldnt exist because they infringe on nations' soverignties. But I think it's better to have them and free trade than neither

[griftadan]

well not everyone always benefits from markets that's kind of the point

Only those with the most devout faith in the market support free trade, and business.

not really, most people i talk to pretty much see it as the way of the future. i'd be willing to bet that even on this forum most people support at least some free trade.

[dei]

I am completely against free trade.

[thedeadwalk!]

I have not read good things about them. But I dare not venture too far into Economics lest I be devoured by the beast.

[Kage]

Down with trade agreements.

[Aaron]

Down with trade agreements.
Aye aye.

If Australia's economy was as dependent on the US economy as it was in the mid to late 80s, we'd be slipping much quicker into recession than we are now. Thanks Keating for fixing that. Thanks Howard for attempting to bring it back and fail putting Rudd in power.

[Smokey D]

But... the only reason Australia's less dependent on the US is because it's opened trade with Asia... And you'd still be going into recession. Haven't you heard of 1929?

Also, free trade is awesome. Only people who want to preserve a white proletarian aristocracy hate them. Free trade makes everyone richer in the long run, and it especially makes people from poor countries richer.

[gregulus]

What impact do you think free trade has on things like outsourcing?

[Independent_CA]

I am completely against free trade.

I'm against trade. And freedom for that matter...


In all seriousness though, these agreements are part of the larger trend towards a globalized economy. Personally I don't think globalization is quite as bad as some make it out to be. However, it does need to be done in a responsible manner.

[Smokey D]

What impact do you think free trade has on things like outsourcing?

It obviously enables it, but I don't see why American workers are entitled to jobs while Chinese workers aren't.

[McP3000]

It obviously enables it, but I don't see why American workers are entitled to jobs while Chinese workers aren't.
Because they are American owned companies :confused:

Its not so much an entitlement, but rather the idea that American birth companies should be loyal to their country and main source of income.

[Smokey D]

Because they are American owned companies

so?



Its not so much an entitlement, but rather the idea that American birth companies should be loyal to their country and main source of income.

I don't see why.

[pedro durruti]

Outsourcing's not such a bad thing... unless it leads to blatant exploitation of course... Besides, there are companies from other countries that produce in America.

[McP3000]

so?



I don't see why.
I dont think it should be mandatory

its just good natured...

[Smokey D]

No more so than giving starving Chinese people work.

[McP3000]

No more so than giving starving Chinese people work.
No more so than giving starving unemployed Americans work

[Smokey D]

Hah! You guys don't starve.

[Aaron]

No more so than giving starving unemployed Americans work
Racism veiled in patriotism, right there.

[gregulus]

Do you think there should be some sort of wage regulation?

[Iskandar]

If we're going to have free trade agreements, they should include provisions about working conditions, fair wages, right to unionization etc. And limit trade with undemocratic or authoritarian regimes. If they want in on trade, they have to reform their political systems.

[shaqadelic]

Increased trading for political reforms may sound like a nice policy but it gets so abused for interest and political agenda that it makes a bad image for democracy.

Nobody is gonna say less trade with China till they introduce political reform. However, if there is a less economically important undemocratic country, trade ties can be lessened and the West can become patronising.

That makes a mockery of the policy. Either you apply it equally or you don't at all.

About the topic.

Free trade is good in an ideal world. WTO sucks at implementing it though.

[1338 h4x0r]

Racism veiled in patriotism, right there.

I'm not an ultra-patriotic American by any stretch of the imagination, but tbh we have an all-around better situation than in China. It seems that everything there is about maximizing profit, and damn the real human costs. Granted, you could say similar things about America but we still have (some) right to criticize the status quo, even though the mainstream media usually won't carry such criticism.

/rant off - I saw a documentary about factory conditions in China and it made me sick :angry:

[Iskandar]

Quite simply, China receives a lot of press about its economic boom but relatively little about its lack of political freedom and democratic government.

[1338 h4x0r]

Quite simply, China receives a lot of press about its economic boom but relatively little about its lack of political freedom and democratic government.

Comments like that distinguish the thinking leftist. REP'D! :chug:

[Iskandar]

Comments like that distinguish the thinking leftist. REP'D! :chug:Oh. Sup brah.

Well, I certainly don't hear the right talking about the political situation in China, aside from this demented idea that "economic freedom (which is right-wing Newspeak for 'capitalism') will bring political freedom to the developing world."

[1338 h4x0r]

Oh. Sup brah.

I'm up at 4:09 for some reason.

As you might have already guessed, I only pretend to be a hardline racist right-winger for the shock value.

dipset

[Iskandar]

I'm up at 4:09 for some reason.

As you might have already guessed, I only pretend to be a hardline racist right-winger for the shock value.

dipsetI wasn't aware you ever pretended to be a hardline racist right-winger.

[1338 h4x0r]

I wasn't aware you ever pretended to be a hardline racist right-winger.

You missed out on my numerous black people jokes and template anti-Semitic blather in R&M.

[Iskandar]

You missed out on my numerous black people jokes and template anti-Semitic blather in R&M.I don't post in R&M.

[1338 h4x0r]

I don't post in R&M.

Oh yeah, word. Well I did that in General, too. nvm :)

[Smokey D]

Do you think there should be some sort of wage regulation?

Wage regulation (in the form of minimum wages) appears to have a beneficial affect on employment and growth, so yes. But only up to a point.

If we're going to have free trade agreements, they should include provisions about working conditions, fair wages, right to unionization etc. And limit trade with undemocratic or authoritarian regimes. If they want in on trade, they have to reform their political systems.

I think these should be introduced, but somewhat slowly because China would rather withdraw from the world (or open up to other markets, see Prisoners' Dilemma) then face the destablization caused by wholesale democratisation. Also, do you think small economies (like NZ for example) are bound by the same obligations as the US, considering New Zealand is far more affected by a free trade deal with China than China is?


I'm not an ultra-patriotic American by any stretch of the imagination, but tbh we have an all-around better situation than in China. It seems that everything there is about maximizing profit, and damn the real human costs. Granted, you could say similar things about America but we still have (some) right to criticize the status quo, even though the mainstream media usually won't carry such criticism.


The thing is without trade you get the same **** labour laws and less incentive to change. The Eastern bloc collapsed because of engagement with the west, not withdrawal.