Gender

[i am the robots]

What's the consensus here in PNWI on what's going on down in the pants in corrolation to what's going on up in the head?

Is it all black and white: you got a dong you're a dude, you got a cooch, you're a girl? Or does anybody else agree that gender role and sexual attraction have more to do with levels of masculinity and femininity, leaving everything muddled in gray?

[PerpetualBurn]

There's a clear distinction to be drawn between gender and sexuality.

[i am the robots]

What about gender role?

[1338 h4x0r]

Is it all black and white: you got a dong you're a dude, you got a cooch, you're a girl? Or does anybody else agree that gender role and sexual attraction have more to do with levels of masculinity and femininity, leaving everything muddled in gray?

Can I do you in the pooper before your operation? That's the only gender question I really need an answer to atm.

[Against Miik!]

This is probably an unnecessary post, but I'm just gonna stay away from this one. I don't know any people who suffer from this whole thinking they are the opposite sex thing, and I don't suffer from it. I can read everything I want about it, but I'm still not gonna get it. It's not being ignorant, its just knowing that I can't know.

[PerpetualBurn]

What about gender role?I think to some extent, given the difference in the physical make up of males and females, that there are some generalisations to be made about the differences in psychology of the sexes.

Having said that, given just how many people actually deviate from any such generalisations, it would be stupid to treat them with any real creedence.

Gender roles are social constructs. There is no reason why anyone should have to conform to them.

[i am the robots]

I think to some extent, given the difference in the physical make up of males and females, that there are some generalisations to be made about the differences in psychology of the sexes.

Having said that, given just how many people actually deviate from any such generalisations, it would be stupid to treat them with any real creedence.
there you go again, thinking everything that goes against what you say is stupid.

Gender roles are social constructs. There is no reason why anyone should have to conform to them.
Only to a certain extent, and trust me, you don't just grow up the way your parents intend.

[PerpetualBurn]

there you go again, thinking everything that goes against what you say is stupid.

What? So you think that we should all conform to some mysterious standard that our sex requires of us?

Only to a certain extent, and trust me, you don't just grow up the way your parents intend.

To what extent are gender roles not social constructs?

[i am the robots]

The roles of femininity and masculinity are somewhat inherent.

[PerpetualBurn]

Then why do they vary so massively between cultures?

[i am the robots]

Because almost everything varies between cultures, but there's still a basic backbone to what is male or female that's shared by every culture.

[PerpetualBurn]

I'd agree with that, I suppose.

But still, since the variance from any inherent gender role is so great, I hardly think it's very important.

[gregulus]

biological sex and gender are two separate things.

[i am the robots]

Very good.

[Spiritofmosa]

biological sex and gender are two separate things.

i don't understand

[i am the robots]

Gender's more based off of personality, body language, dress, etc.

[Against Miik!]

So a male can act like a female and a female can act like a male, but its quite strange for these people to actually believe they are the opposite sex

[i am the robots]

Why the hell is it strange?

[lfantwister]

So a male can act like a female and a female can act like a male, but its quite strange for these people to actually believe they are the opposite sex

have you heard about those intersex babies? (I know, sounds dirty, isn't)

[guitrguy]

The roles of femininity and masculinity are somewhat inherent.

lol no. Many cultures had a reversed gender role, thus proving its not inherent.

[-1up!-]

Roles of feminity and masculinity are not inherent at all. They are socially constructed. Aside from hormones and physical details, there aren't much natural differences between male and female, and hormones certainly can't explain the complexity of varying gender roles in different societies.

[Aklerc]

Gender =/= Sex

Gender is who you are. Be that male/female/genderqueer/pangender or whatever. Sex is your bits.

Gah gender is well complicated idk where to start. You've got your run of the mill cisgendered people (people whose gender is in accordance with their born sex) and your transsexuals which are really very similar. There is no 'grey' as such with transsexuals, they are simply born as the wrong sex. Then it gets messy. So transgenderism applies to anything astray of cisgender. The GREY bit. This doesn't usually include drag queens/kings, cross dressers or androgyny. Although they might be transgendered, it's not always the case. In between you have all your crazy names but I tend to refer to most as genderqueer... which is the bit that most people debate about really.

Either way it's definitely not black or white. You have guys that are effeminate and girls that are masculine in certain aspects and for society to depict everything they do because of what their downstairs equipment looks like is ridiculous. More recent androgynous trends reflect this. If you're a woman, you are expected to wear certain things, walk a certain way, talk a certian way, be interested in certain things and **** certain people. The same goes for men but often with harsher taboo. No one cares if a woman wears trousers (in western society) but if you are a man and decide you want to wear a skirt it's often seen as sick and freakish. I think however liberated we feel as a society there are still prejudices and expectations about that are silly.

I don't really know what you asking but as far as I'm concerned there are so many people that don't have a clue about gender and the amount of transphobia about is sickening. Gender reflects how you see yourself and to be restricted in whatever way because you have a **** or a cunt is ridiculous.

Gender roles are very much socially constructed. The only reasoning I ever hear is "cause you're a girl!" :-/

[guitrguy]

Gender = sex, but does not = gender identification.

[Brewing Up With]

Wouldn't testosterone naturally imply a male person to have male characteristics, thus implying them to be masculine?

[guitrguy]

females have testosterone, but that still has little play on societal views of gender roles.

[Aklerc]

Gender = sex, but does not = gender identification.
What?

[guitrguy]

Gender specifically refers to biological sex, however being a male gender does not necessarily equivocate in to male identification.

Just helping you strengthen your post. :)

[Aklerc]

Gender specifically refers to biological sex, however being a male gender does not necessarily equivocate in to male identification.

Just helping you strengthen your post. :)
No... gender is gender identification. So I could be female in terms of sex but my gender could be male.

[guitrguy]

eh, I tend to think gender is a bit ambiguous, definition wise.

[Aklerc]

eh, I tend to think gender is a bit ambiguous, definition wise.
Sex is genitals, gender is identification. Gender and gender identification are exactly the same thing :-/ You already have a word for sex (sex) so why confuse gender by calling it sex?

Gender, in common usage, refers to the differences between men and women. Encyclopædia Britannica notes that gender identity is "an individual's self-conception as being male or female, as distinguished from actual biological sex."

(wiki) It's the universal understanding of gender, ie. distinguishable from sex. Unless you live under a rock and are close minded enough to think that EVERYONE is cisgendered, that's the definition of gender.

[spitfirejunky]

I think the following question can clear this up easily:

Can a woman have testicles?

[Aklerc]

I think the following question can clear this up easily:

Can a woman have testicles?
What exactly are you attempting to clear up by that?

[spitfirejunky]

What being a woman means.

[Knifeboy]

Can a woman have testicles?


Sure she can! but if I posted pictures as proof, I'd be banned

[guitrguy]

hermaphrodites ftw.

[Knifeboy]

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-11/24/content_497556.htm first link on google for the query "woman with testicles"

(actually, technically that's a man with a vagina, but I don't see how that's much different)

[guitrguy]

lol, I'm at my school's internet cafe, so I can't look at it..... yet.

[Dies Irae]

lol i knew this would be a mappy thread

[Toaster]

i know a girl who dated another girl for over a year she has dated guys too though

14 months is a long time to be fishing forattention so i dont think she was faking it

[Aklerc]

What being a woman means.
:rolleyes:

[thedeadwalk!]

Can a woman have testicles?
Sure, it's just not very feminine.

And what being a woman means gets into gender, not sex.

[Iscariot]

females have testosterone, but that still has little play on societal views of gender roles.

But they have far less than males. And when they have the same or more it is a genetic defect.

I don't understand the loose-handed approach to sexual identity. If you have a penis you're a man. If you have a vagina you're a girl. Seems pretty straight-forward to me.

[thedeadwalk!]

And shemales?

[Iscariot]

And shemales?

it is a genetic defect.

‪‪‪

[thedeadwalk!]

And that makes them less of a woman?

[Iscariot]

It makes them expendable.

[Aaron]

This is probably an unnecessary post, but I'm just gonna stay away from this one. I don't know any people who suffer from this whole thinking they are the opposite sex thing, and I don't suffer from it. I can read everything I want about it, but I'm still not gonna get it. It's not being ignorant, its just knowing that I can't know.
It's called having an Adjustment-Disorder. It's mental illness in its most simplistic. Refer to 309.4 of the DSM-IV.

[Aklerc]

But they have far less than males. And when they have the same or more it is a genetic defect.

I don't understand the loose-handed approach to *sexual identity. If you have a penis you're a man. If you have a omnibus you're a girl. Seems pretty straight-forward to me.
*gender

So you define yourself as man purely by your penis? If a man wore a dress would you not describe him as dressing "like a woman"? If it was purely to do with our reproductive organs then we wouldn't have predisposed expectations and associations with masculinity and femininity. However futile it is, if a woman drinks beer, loves sports and lives in baggy boyish clothes they are thought of as being masculine. Just like if a man where's fitted clothes, likes shopping and reads fashion magazines they are seen to be feminine.

If it was a simple as "men have a penis have a vagina" then there wouldn't even be an issue. There would be no 'loose-handed approach" because people could act/wear/talk/like whatever they want and wouldn't even be associated with being masculine or feminine because being a man or a woman would be down to body alone.

Which is why I think cross-dressing is becoming more popular for both sexes. It doesn't matter so much anymore and people can do what they want without the stigma that used to be attached. You can be a totally comfortable heterosexual cisgendered person but like wearing clothes of the opposite sex for whatever reason you wish.

[Aaron]

^ just because it's becoming popular doesn't mean it's healthy for individuals or society. See drug-usage for an example of where your arguement is flawed.

[spitfirejunky]

You're right. But it's not unhealthy though.

[Aaron]

Anything, in my book, that is either [or both] detrimental to their communication and relationships with others within society, or affective of their mental state is unhealthy to me. Anyone who feels that "different" is going to have trouble within any family/workplace/group of friends/...

[Aklerc]

^ just because it's becoming popular doesn't mean it's healthy for individuals or society. See drug-usage for an example of where your arguement is flawed.
I wasn't saying "look it's okay because loads of people do it!" I was just saying why I think it's becoming more popular. I could give other reasons as to why I don't think it's a bad thing though.

Now you've brought it up though, do you think cross-dressing is unhealthy for the individual and society?

[Aaron]

See post above you.

[Aklerc]

Anything, in my book, that is either [or both] detrimental to their communication to others within society, or affective of their mental state is unhealthy to me. Anyone who feels that "different" is going to have trouble within any family/workplace/group of frieds/...
It used to be seen as 'different' if girls wore trousers. Now it's okay. Conflict helps society to evolve. It used to be different to think that women and black people should have the same rights as men, but now it would be different to think otherwise.

So what you're saying is that anything that could ever create conflict in any situation should be stopped? That's ridiculous. You may as well say that people can't have controversial opinions because it might cause trouble. What about things that are of no choice to the individual in question? I highly doubt that anyone would 'want' gender dysphoria... and so then you have a choice really. Try and stop them from being who they want to be and let them lead a depressed, repressed life, or face the conflict that may arise and let them be happy? Surely then you are placing the blame on society- and if society were more accepting of cross dressing then suddenly it would be okay?

[Aaron]

...or recognise it as a mental illness based on hormone imbalance and administer the appropriate medication just like depressive or attention based illnesses. There's a difference between racism/sexism and mental illness.

"She's a girl, she doesn't deserve a high paid job," is different to,
"he/she antisocial and acts oddly due to a chemical imbalance."

[Aklerc]

...or recognise it as a mental illness based on hormone imbalance and administer the appropriate medication just like depressive or attention based illnesses.
Yeah... it's not as simple as that. I don't know much [anything] about medicine but I'm pretty sure if you could 'fix' gender dysphoria by popping a few hormone pills then we'd know about it. Why would cross-dressing be a mental illness anyway? Like I said before you can have a heterosexual cisgendered male who just likes wearing skirts for reasons of his own. Remove society from the equation and there's nothing unhealthy about it.

"She's a girl, she doesn't deserve a high paid job," is different to,
"he/she antisocial and acts oddly due to a chemical imbalance."
1. Who say they're anti-social?
2. Why is it deemed 'odd'?

[Aaron]

What is the difference then between depression and gender dysphoria from a clinical perspective? It's both psychologically and psychiatrically based. Counselling + appropriate medication = treatment.

Hardly. People act differently as a reaction to something. You can remove society from the arguement, but you can't remove society from a person's perspective on life. Based on my work [rehabilitation of psychological and physical injuries relating to workplace accidents/incidents] I can tell you that people act differently on the most part, as a reaction to something, not as a creative outlet, and those that state it is a creative outlet are utilising something concrete and from society as their muse and reference point. Everyone is unique, yes, however there is still certain things that are inappropriate.

[spitfirejunky]

What is the difference then between depression and gender dysphoria from a clinical perspective? It's both psychologically and psychiatrically based. Counselling + appropriate medication = treatment.

One is distinctly unhealthy and the other isn't.

If everyone agreed that red hair is distracting, weird and ugly, that wouldn't mean having red hair is a disease. Same follows for gender abnormalties.

[Aklerc]

What is the difference then between depression and gender dysphoria from a clinical perspective? It's both psychologically and psychiatrically based. Counselling + appropriate medication = treatment.
Yes. The treatment is giving them a body to match their gender. Yes it is seen as a mental illness but the best way of treating them is by fixing the physical to match the mental. If the best way was to counsel them out of it then I'm sure that's what they have tried in the past and it's failed.

Everyone is unique, yes, however there is still certain things that are inappropriate.
Tell me why it is inappropriate. it is pretty much complelety acceptable for women to cross dress yet virtually unacceptable in society's eyes for men to. Why do you have to fix someone to suit everyone else? If it causes no suffering to anyone then why stop them from being happy? How is it different to any other material preference?

Note: I am talking about gender dysphoria and cross dressing as two separate things. The first being an uncontrollable mental state, the second being a hoice of expression.

[Aaron]

Yes. The treatment is giving them a body to match their gender. Yes it is seen as a mental illness but the best way of treating them is by fixing the physical to match the mental.
That's quite an extreme view. Turning your argument on it's head. What if I feel that I shouldn't be able to walk. Should I be voluntarily crippled? What if ten years down the track my social and personal cirmcumstances change and my illness is less acute and I want to be the earlier gender?

If the best way was to counsel them out of it then I'm sure that's what they have tried in the past and it's failed.
I think you see counselling as chatting away feelings on a couch. There's a plethora of differing techniques professional utilise and often these are permamently in place to assist people. It's isn't a matter of exhausting a treatment and moving to the next, more radical one [with any injury] it's a matter of a professional assessing the injured person's medical needs and treating it effectively.

Tell me why it is inappropriate.

Anything, in my book, that is either [or both] detrimental to their communication and relationships with others within society, or affective of their mental state is unhealthy to me. Anyone who feels that "different" is going to have trouble within any family/workplace/group of friends/...

----

I'll agree to disagree at this point as I don't think you really understand the differing levels of mental illness that exist. I'm not meaning to be rude when I say that, I'm slowly getting more drunk. Google DSM-IV and have a read though.

[i am the robots]

why is it inappropriate though? or do you not even have a reason to believe so?
^ just because it's becoming popular doesn't mean it's healthy for individuals or society. See drug-usage for an example of where your arguement is flawed.

so you equate hormone replacement therapy to unhealthy drug abuse?

[PerpetualBurn]

That's quite an extreme view. Turning your argument on it's head. What if I feel that I shouldn't be able to walk. Should I be voluntarily crippled? What if ten years down the track my social and personal cirmcumstances change and my illness is less acute and I want to be the earlier gender?

Crippling you would be injuring you. Becoming transgendered would not be.

It wouldn't be impossible to return to your previous gender, though it would be tough. But it's not like transsexuals do this on a whim. Usually, to get the surgery, you have two spend around 2 years on hormone therapy, living your daily life as the sex you wish to become, before they'll perform anything surgical.

I think you see counselling as chatting away feelings on a couch. There's a plethora of differing techniques professional utilise and often these are permamently in place to assist people. It's isn't a matter of exhausting a treatment and moving to the next, more radical one [with any injury] it's a matter of a professional assessing the injured person's medical needs and treating it effectively.
----

I'll agree to disagree at this point as I don't think you really understand the differing levels of mental illness that exist. I'm not meaning to be rude when I say that, I'm slowly getting more drunk. Google DSM-IV and have a read though.

Except that the overwhelming view within psychology is that it is very damaging for people who genuinely have gender indentification disorder to be forced to live as their original sex.

It isn't just a hormone imbalance that can be treated. It's a very complex disorder and transgendered people aren't going to get better. There is no reason to stop them living the life of a transsexual. The only reason any hardship may come of being transsexual is that society may have a problem with them. But that's a problem of public understanding and acceptance, NOT a problem with the person's disorder.

why is it inappropriate though? or do you not even have a reason to believe so?


My religious beliefs...

[sweboy]

Gender roles are disgusting, and to defend them by refering to biological differences between men and woman is retarded. I think that every induvidual should be able to live his/her life as freely as possible, without being expected to behave or dress in certain ways or in any other way face prejudice because of their biological characteristics, which they didn't choose. Cross dressers are really freedom fighters, in the frontier of the moral progress of society, and to look down on them is morally repugnant and retrogressive.

EDIT: That's quite an extreme view. Turning your argument on it's head. What if I feel that I shouldn't be able to walk. Should I be voluntarily crippled?
Of course.
What if ten years down the track my social and personal cirmcumstances change and my illness is less acute and I want to be the earlier gender?
Then you obviously change back (though pay yourself).

[Hababi]

Gender roles are disgusting, and to defend them by refering to biological differences between men and woman is retarded. I think that every induvidual should be able to live his/her life as freely as possible, without being expected to behave or dress in certain ways or in any other way face prejudice because of their biological characteristics, which they didn't choose.


:confused: the desire to dress in ways inappropriate to your sex is a biological characteristic, too. And one that instead of being coddled, should be addressed.

[sweboy]

:confused: the desire to dress in ways inappropriate to your sex is a biological characteristic, too. And one that instead of being coddled, should be addressed.

Please show me what genes code for the desire to wear trousers or skirts, and/or elaborate on how these genes could have been selected for during human evolution.

EDIT: By the way remember that I'm talking about cross dressing, nothing else.

[Smokey D]

Gender roles are morally neutral. It's only attempting to enforce them that us disgusting.

the desire to dress in ways inappropriate to your sex is a biological characteristic, too.

Zero, what the hell?

[Hababi]

Please show me what genes code for the desire to wear trousers or skirts, and/or elaborate on how these genes could have been selected for during human evolution.


Genetic abnormalities are all about what evolution hasn't selected showing up again. Like walking on all fours.

[Hababi]

Gender roles are morally neutral. It's only attempting to enforce them that us disgusting.

That depends on what you mean by enforcing them. If you're talking about discriminating against hiring women then yeah.



Zero, what the hell?

Aberrant traits either have genetic or neurochemical roots, either way they should be addressed, not encouraged.

[Smokey D]

That depends on what you mean by enforcing them. If you're talking about discriminating against hiring women then yeah.



Any sort of coercion or discrimination.


Aberrant traits either have genetic or neurochemical roots, either way they should be addressed, not encouraged.

What about psychological roots? But more importantly, if a man wants to wear a dress, it's a) none of your business b) not unnatural.

[Hababi]

Any sort of coercion or discrimination.

Who's going to argue that coercion or discrimination is good? :confused:



What about psychological roots? But more importantly, if a man wants to wear a dress, it's a) none of your business b) not unnatural.

I don't think I ever used them term unnatural. It's a pretty silly term to use in talking about things which are the result of natural causes. That doesn't mean that it's positive or healthy or that it should be encouraged, though. But so far as a), yes, I don't care to know. If people want to cross dress, I'm sure not going to support legislation to stop them. They can do what they want. But that doesn't mean that we ought to be giving the :thumb: to the activity.

[i am the robots]

My religious beliefs...
har har :rolleyes:

you aren't good at debating or trolling, gtfo

[Smokey D]

Who's going to argue that coercion or discrimination is good? :confused:

You tell me.

I don't think I ever used them term unnatural. It's a pretty silly term to use in talking about things which are the result of natural causes. That doesn't mean that it's positive or healthy or that it should be encouraged, though. But so far as a), yes, I don't care to know. If people want to cross dress, I'm sure not going to support legislation to stop them. They can do what they want. But that doesn't mean that we ought to be giving the :thumb: to the activity.

You should encourage everything that isn't unhealthy, or at least encourage it as much as anything else. Especially if it makes people happy for whatever reason.

But seriously, 'inappropriate for their sex' implies that there is an essential and fundamental quality to one's gender and that there is therefore an immutably appropriate style of dress for either gender. Which is really really retarded. You may as well say people who dress like emos or punks 'shouldn't be encouraged'. And if you do, I'm going to lose all faith.

[Hababi]

You tell me. no one.



You should encourage everything that isn't unhealthy, or at least encourage it as much as anything else. Especially if it makes people happy for whatever reason.


That's the wrong outlook to have. It makes sense only to encourage what is best and most harmonious. Anything else undermines social order. I'm not saying ban it, I'm just saying that there shouldn't be any encouraging.

But seriously, 'inappropriate for their sex' implies that there is an essential and fundamental quality to one's gender and that there is therefore an immutably appropriate style of dress for either gender. Which is really really retarded. You may as well say people who dress like emos or punks 'shouldn't be encouraged'. And if you do, I'm going to lose all faith.

I'll give you that much of dress is cultural constructs at work, but let's use some common sense and admit that a bra and a dress are designed for women and make absolutely no sense on men.

The mixup that goes into longing for dressing in clothing of the opposite sex isn't merely a desire to dress differently, as punk or emo clothing is (and I'm not for encouraging that, either), it's rather a more serious mixup that involves being driven to undermine social order.

[Ganondorf]

If a man thought he was a dog, people would see it as a disease, but because he thinks he's a woman it's not?

[Smokey D]

That's the wrong outlook to have. It makes sense only to encourage what is best and most harmonious. Anything else undermines social order. I'm not saying ban it, I'm just saying that there shouldn't be any encouraging.

Whatever Uncle Joe.

Cetis paribus, it is better to encourage what makes people happy.

I'll give you that much of dress is cultural constructs at work, but let's use some common sense and admit that a bra and a dress are designed for women and make absolutely no sense on men.

How is a dress specifically female? It has no structural features that make it inherently more useful for a woman than a man.

On a man, I'd compare a bra to a hat, jewelry or any other piece of ornamentation.



The mixup that goes into longing for dressing in clothing of the opposite sex isn't merely a desire to dress differently, as punk or emo clothing is (and I'm not for encouraging that, either), it's rather a more serious mixup that involves being driven to undermine social order.

Society has survived far worse things than men wearing dresses.

Plus, we wouldn't have David Bowie if we let people like you run the world.

Also, do you think emo and punk are actually subversive of public order?

[Hababi]

If a man thought he was a dog, people would see it as a disease, but because he thinks he's a woman it's not?

Gender dysphoria is just as much a disease as species dysphoria. When you think you are something that your genetic code tells you that you are not, there's something wrong.

[Ganondorf]

That's what I was getting at.

[Smokey D]

Cross dressing isn't gender dysphoria.

And disease is very dangerous term to be throwing around. Disease means there's something wrong in the sense that it's preventing you from living a normal life. Trans-sexuals and transgendered people can live perfectly normal lives, insofar as anyone can be 'normal'.

[Hababi]

How is a dress specifically female? It has no structural features that make it inherently more useful for a woman than a man.

Its design is for the female frame, not the male.

On a man, I'd compare a bra to a hat, jewelry or any other piece of ornamentation.


A hat serves a functional purpose, so I think that comparison is off base. Jewerly is ornamentation, yes, but a bra is not. It's a functional piece, the same as boxers or briefs. Also, bras are designed to be worn inside of other clothes, unseen, beyond bra commercials. So again, the comparison is off.


Society has survived far worse things than men wearing dresses.

That doesn't mean it's a good thing.


Plus, we wouldn't have David Bowie if we let people like you run the world.

Sure we would. He'd be just as free to have worn a dress in a society run by me as anyone else's. He just sure as heck wouldn't get encouragement for choosing to do so.

Also, do you think emo and punk are actually subversive of public order?

Subversive is a bit of a strong word. They do betray social order and in an ideal society no one would choose to dress that way.

[Ganondorf]

In an ideal society no one would be judged on what they looked like.

[Hababi]

Cross dressing isn't gender dysphoria.

You're right, but I'm not saying that it is. That was a specific response to actually wanting to be a woman, which is a separate but often interlocked thing.


And disease is very dangerous term to be throwing around. Disease means there's something wrong in the sense that it's preventing you from living a normal life.

Yes, and this is absolutely the case! They can live a normal life if they get treatment to suppress the urge to change their genetic makeup. Or they can spend thousands of dollars receiving all sorts of invasive surgery and harmful hormone treatments, trying to change their genes. Wanting to do that is an illustration of a disease.

[Hababi]

In an ideal society no one would be judged on what they looked like.

People shouldn't be judged on physical traits which they have no control over. But they deserve to be judged for some lifestyle choices.

[Smokey D]

Its design is for the female frame, not the male.

No it's not.

A hat serves a functional purpose, so I think that comparison is off base. Jewerly is ornamentation, yes, but a bra is not. It's a functional piece, the same as boxers or briefs. Also, bras are designed to be worn inside of other clothes, unseen, beyond bra commercials. So again, the comparison is off.

A man wearing a bra is using it as a piece of ornamentation (or support if he's a fatty). What bras are designed for is really quite irrelevant since lots of stuff gets used for things other than their intended purpose.

That doesn't mean it's a good thing.

You haven't shown why it's bad.

Sure we would. He'd be just as free to have worn a dress in a society run by me as anyone else's. He just sure as heck wouldn't get encouragement for choosing to do so.


Okay, I'll rephrase. It's people like you that make David Bowie.

Subversive is a bit of a strong word. They do betray social order and in an ideal society no one would choose to dress that way.

Lol, Adolf.

Dang kids and their crazy fashions! You talk about Islamofascists, but this is ****ing terrifying.

You're right, but I'm not saying that it is. That was a specific response to actually wanting to be a woman, which is a separate but often interlocked thing.


No, most cross dressers are straight.

Yes, and this is absolutely the case! They can live a normal life if they get treatment to suppress the urge to change their genetic makeup. Or they can spend thousands of dollars receiving all sorts of invasive surgery and harmful hormone treatments, trying to change their genes. Wanting to do that is an illustration of a disease.

But a man who wants to be a woman isn't harmed by it, nor is a man wanting to dress like a woman. The very best you've come up with is that it's subversive to the social order which means is not a disease.

I'd question the your ability to live a normal life constantly having to challenge strong and largely unexplained urges or the associated depression and **** that comes along with that.

[guitrguy]

People shouldn't be judged on physical traits which they have no control over. But they deserve to be judged for some lifestyle choices.
Until they judge the you, then its not okay.

[1338 h4x0r]

Subversive is a bit of a strong word. They do betray social order

Who cares? Form your own opinions next time.

[i am the robots]

That doesn't mean it's a good thing.
now tell me why its a bad thing?

and in response to what ive read a lot in this thread:

gender dysphoria is a mental illness, okay cool, but look, if people dont get a chance to express themselves in a way that they feel, "right," theyll just end up horribly depressed and wondering, "what if?" for the rest of their life. thats so much more healthy than transitioning. :rolleyes:

[irishslappop]

Sex is biological, Gender is a Mindset. thats why some people are gay. Sex influences gender obviously, but it doesn't define it.

[i am the robots]

Gays still identify as males. :)

[irishslappop]

and being a male is being a certain sex, not a gender. Gender is Defined through culture and is pretty variable. ex. In American culture the male is usually the "bread winner" but this is not always so, and it's changing all the time as well. Gender is defined and redefined every day, mainly by popular culture.

[i am the robots]

very good!

[irishslappop]

has this already been said? i never read threads...

[Ganondorf]

Gays still identify as males. :)

No they don't, males don't wanna bone other males? :confused:

[irishslappop]

just so we can agree on some general terms here, the term male, is not gender specific. its a biological term.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/male

[pedro durruti]

People shouldn't be judged on physical traits which they have no control over. But they deserve to be judged for some lifestyle choices.
Who gives a damn if someone wants to wear pink socks a white shirt and buttons for earrings
Gender is Defined through culture and is pretty variable. ex. In American culture the male is usually the "bread winner" but this is not always so, and it's changing all the time as well. Gender is defined and redefined every day, mainly by popular culture.
I wouldn't say that's a question of gender identification, but gender roles and the distinction between masculinity and femininity, which are just personality characteristics often belonging to one sex or the other, where anyone deviating from them wouldn't be thought of as having gender identification issues, just a gender deviant.

[irishslappop]

I wouldn't say that's a question of gender identification, but gender roles and the distinction between masculinity and femininity, which are just personality characteristics often belonging to one sex or the other, where anyone deviating from them wouldn't be thought of as having gender identification issues, just a gender deviant.

this is pretty good ^^

[Ganondorf]

How are people arguing that gender is a social concept then saying people want to switch sex to fit these stereotypes...?

If gender is a human construct then how can someone be ''born'' in the wrong body? It's bs.

[irishslappop]

in my opinion, they aren't born into the wrong body, but along with horomone levels and their social upbringing, they could be "shaped" into the wrong body. is that clear? or not?

[Ganondorf]

Well obviously if it's just a hormonal issue science should be able to readress the balance without need for risk surgery.

[irishslappop]

well theres the social upbringing part too, which is probably just as important.

[i am the robots]

No they don't, males don't wanna bone other males? :confused:

theres plenty of meatheads who attracted to masculinity :/

[irishslappop]

theres plenty of meatheads who attracted to masculinity :/

UFC ring any bells? I love the strikers, but i really cant stand the wrestling. UFC is a huge outlet for homoerotic tendancies.

[i am the robots]

no, like, meatheads who are into all of that and like it in the ***, its not all black and white

[McP3000]

I always thought Gender was the same thing as sex...ah well...

[pedro durruti]

Well obviously if it's just a hormonal issue science should be able to readress the balance without need for risk surgery.
Should science do that? It's not up to anyone but the individual under consideration to inject chemicals that will affect their biopsychology or whatever the scientists are saying these days! And it's not up to others to normalize people for being 'different', especially the medical establishment.

[Aaron]

Er. I think doctor's are quite qualified to be doctors.

[pedro durruti]

Half the time, but they're not qualified to decide what's right and what's wrong.

[thedeadwalk!]

Psychological evaluations are carried out beforehand.

[Aaron]

Half the time, but they're not qualified to decide what's right and what's wrong.
Err. How? Doctor's are in place within society to make decisions on what medical treatment is or isn't appopriate dependent on their assessments, not on a patients views in the most part.

This, contrary to your view on the world, does not happen:
Doctor: What's up?
Patient: I feel sick.
Doctor: What treatment would you like. You can choose.

[McP3000]

Err. How? Doctor's are in place within society to make decisions on what medical treatment is or isn't appopriate dependent on their assessments, not on a patients views in the most part.

This, contrary to your view on the world, does not happen:
Doctor: What's up?
Patient: I feel sick.
Doctor: What treatment would you like. You can choose.
Patients have the right to choose treatment or not as long as they are deemed able to make their own decisions.

[Aaron]

Doctor's assess the range of treatments that are appropriate and administer this treatment as they are trained to do. In the event that multiple treatments are appropriate then a doctor has an obligation to outline both and discuss which they feel in their professional opinion is more appropriate.

[pedro durruti]

Err. How? Doctor's are in place within society to make decisions on what medical treatment is or isn't appopriate dependent on their assessments, not on a patients views in the most part.

This, contrary to your view on the world, does not happen:
Doctor: What's up?
Patient: I feel sick.
Doctor: What treatment would you like. You can choose.
Exactly, they're working within society, and therefore many of them carry the same assumptions. For example, homosexuality was classified as a mental disorder until the 70's.

And I'm not sure how that corresponds to my 'view of the world'. What I'm saying is not everyone wants to get hormonal injections just because they are acting 'other than what they are'.

[Aaron]

Stop being so aloof in your analysis of the issue. Doctor's a trained specialists and at the end of the day are in a better position to make decisions on medical issues.

[pedro durruti]

Why is it a medical issue?

[Aaron]

med·i·cal
–adjective .of or pertaining to the science or practice of medicine: medical history; medical treatment. .curative; medicinal; therapeutic: medical properties. .pertaining to or requiring treatment by other than surgical means. –noun something done or received in regard to the state of one's health, as a medical examination.

[pedro durruti]

A lot of children who were medicalized because of intersexualism or gender dysphoria actually reacted adversely, having the opposite effect of 'treatment'.

[thedeadwalk!]

Why is it a medical issue?
Because turning a penis to a vagina is medically complicated? And the other way round even more so.

A lot of children who were medicalized because of intersexualism or gender dysphoria actually reacted adversely, having the opposite effect of 'treatment'.
Medicalized meaning? And also, they're children! Hardly prime candidates.

[VomitStainedCretin]

Because turning a penis to a omnibus is medically complicated? And the other way round even more so."Am I a man yet?"

[Iskandar]

From a transsexual's point of view, he was always a man. He now merely has the body to match his gender.

[i am the robots]

A lot of children who were medicalized because of intersexualism or gender dysphoria actually reacted adversely, having the opposite effect of 'treatment'.

sources?

[lfantwister]

http://www.isna.org/faq/concealment

[Aklerc]

I have a really good example in a book I have about an intersex person who was assigned a gender at birth and wasn't told until much later. I have lost my book though... it's 'Assume Nothing', a set of photos by Rebecca Swan.

[i am the robots]

http://www.isna.org/faq/concealment

note the difference between intersexed children and transsexuals?

[thedeadwalk!]

Those cases are rife with problems and do not deal with gender dysphoria.

[Aklerc]

Those cases are rife with problems and do not deal with gender dysphoria.
Unless I am mistaken he said "A lot of children who were medicalized because of intersexualism or gender dysphoria actually reacted adversely." This topic is 'gender' not 'gender dysphoria' and intersex issues come into that.

[thedeadwalk!]

Unless I am mistaken he said "A lot of children who were medicalized because of intersexualism or gender dysphoria actually reacted adversely." This topic is 'gender' not 'gender dysphoria' and intersex issues come into that.
Intersex doesn't concern gender. It deals only with the ambiguous genitalia (small penis, large clitoris) and not of any identity the child has of itself. A child has no idea of gender at that age.

Because we were talking about gender dysphoria earlier, I was simply pointing out the fallacy in grouping it with intersex.

[Smokey D]

Gender is informed upon by biological characteristics such as ambiguous genitalia or the presence of hormones associated with either sex.

[thedeadwalk!]

But the child has no conception of this.

[irishslappop]

Gender is informed upon by biological characteristics such as ambiguous genitalia or the presence of hormones associated with either sex.

? care to expain this further? are we talking about gender in general or are we talking about trannies now?

[i am the robots]

no, i think were just saying that not all cases of hrt go wrong, and that hrt from the start probably ISNT the right way to treat intersexed children (personally i think they should let the kids decide when they're ready)

however, in the case of transgendered folk, well, hrt isnt a bad thing by any means
Those cases are rife with problems and do not deal with gender dysphoria.

exactly

[pedro durruti]

There's no need to turn gender incongruency into a pathology of the mind or physiology. To be honest, I just got carried out on a limb after getting all riled up and so I don't know any children with gender dysphoria by itself who have been given hormone therapy in order to repress their current hormonal regulation which is supposedly the cause of their dysphoria. There's David Reimer, although he's sort of a bad example. He was given estrogen in addition to his sex reassignment surgery after a botched circumcision, so he was a sort of male (both his testes and penis were removed) in a cosmetically female body, who did not respond positively to his medicalized condition or socialization as a girl (he reverted back to being a male, and eventually killed himself when he was 38).

As far as I am concerned most transgendered children do not want to become normalized through medical intervention nor socialization else they would not be transgendered. If the child prefers to identify as the opposite sex, and prefers to behave according to its associated gender role, then let them be. Who are we to say what they are? Besides, we live in a society with very rigid gender boundaries. You are either male or female, masculine or feminine, and if you diverge from this binary system, then you will be rejected and possibly labeled mentally ill. As has been said many times before in here, gender is a social construct that has in mainstream society clearly defined boundaries.

I think that if it is a question of changing the body or the mind because of gender incongruency, then it should always be the body first, because it is in the mind where our individuality and our sense of self first projects, and in the body where the transgendered person finds most dissatisfaction.

[Aklerc]

Intersex doesn't concern gender. It deals only with the ambiguous genitalia (small penis, large clitoris) and not of any identity the child has of itself. A child has no idea of gender at that age.

Because we were talking about gender dysphoria earlier, I was simply pointing out the fallacy in grouping it with intersex.
Um just because their physical sex is ambiguous doesn't mean they can't understand the concept of gender identity... they do after all grow up- normally forced into a specific gender. The person in question will probably face mega gender issues.

I think children have ideas about gender- just very narrow minded ones. Girls do this boys do that. And most transsexuals know from a very early age that they are the wrong sex.

[i am the robots]

herbert is my hero

[thedeadwalk!]

Um just because their physical sex is ambiguous doesn't mean they can't understand the concept of gender identity... they do after all grow up- normally forced into a specific gender. The person in question will probably face mega gender issues.

I think children have ideas about gender- just very narrow minded ones. Girls do this boys do that. And most transsexuals know from a very early age that they are the wrong sex.
I'm not saying they can't understand it because their genitals are ambiguous, I'm saying the can't understand it because they just can't think that way yet. Such concepts have no meaning to them at an early age, let alone at infancy, when the surgery is done.

Also, we mustn't confuse intersexed with transgendered. Transgendered individuals believe they are the wrong sex, while intersexed individuals are forced in to the opposite sex because parents and doctors don't believe them adequate to fulfill the role with what they're born with. It is the intersexed individual who is being converted at infancy to, and raised as, the opposite sex, without his consent. It is the transgendered individual who is seeking out treatment, as an adult, to be turned in to the opposite sex.

[pedro durruti]

Transgendered is a pretty catchall term for anyone that doesn't fit into the typical gender system, including intersexual people.

[thedeadwalk!]

Except transgendered people want to be the other sex, while intersexed people just have ambiguous genitalia.

[i am the robots]

for all intensive purposes in this debating lets just clarify when we're talking about intersexed

[Aklerc]

I'm not saying they can't understand it because their genitals are ambiguous, I'm saying the can't understand it because they just can't think that way yet. Such concepts have no meaning to them at an early age, let alone at infancy, when the surgery is done.
You think deciding a gender for an intersex child won't have an effect on the rest of their life? Wrong. I have a perfect example but I can't find my damn book.

Also, we mustn't confuse intersexed with transgendered. Transgendered individuals believe they are the wrong sex, while intersexed individuals are forced in to the opposite sex because parents and doctors don't believe them adequate to fulfill the role with what they're born with. It is the intersexed individual who is being converted at infancy to, and raised as, the opposite sex, without his consent. It is the transgendered individual who is seeking out treatment, as an adult, to be turned in to the opposite sex.
I am perfectly aware of the difference, thank you. I am purely talking about intersex and not TG.

Also, transgender is a general term for anyone who is not cisgendered, ie. does not conform to their birth roles. So that includes genderqueer and could very easily encompass intersex people as well.

[thedeadwalk!]

You think deciding a gender for an intersex child won't have an effect on the rest of their life? Wrong. I have a perfect example but I can't find my damn book.
I've be saying that exact thing from the start. That post was using simple child psychology saying they have no concept of gender identity at that age, not that they won't ever, or subsequently be unharmed by having one forced on them.

I've seen numerous cases of children being forced into a gender with bad results.

Also, transgender is a general term for anyone who is not cisgendered, ie. does not conform to their birth roles. So that includes genderqueer and could very easily encompass intersex people as well.
Sure, it can be used as a general term, like narcotics, but within a psychological discourse, has a more specific definition. Although it still changes across time and context.

[PerpetualBurn]

You think deciding a gender for an intersex child won't have an effect on the rest of their life? Wrong. I have a perfect example but I can't find my damn book.


There was a documentary a while back (probably on Channel 4) about intersex people. They had several older people on (about 40+) whom had been born at a time when it was considered that nurture would override nature in gender identity. They found it easier to reassign the sexes as female, and raised these intersex people as such. It of course completely ruined many who now wish they had been raised male. They were pretty much all massively depressed and a few committed suicide.

[GreyHam]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

i did an essay on this chap in second year

the impact that transsexuality has on the debate of wether gender identity is independent of sexed characteristics

http://fileho.com/download/f2703b674548/Does-the-phenomenon-of-transsexuality-indicate-that-gender-identity-is-independent-of-sexed-characteristics.doc.html

[i am the robots]

you need IE to dl that? rofl fail

[Danish]

I would be willing to bet that every one of you knows an intersex person and you don't even know it.

The level of general ignorance here is pretty sobering after spending the week in an Anti-Racism Anti-Oppression training course...

[Against Miik!]

a what now?

[RockAndRoll]

I would be willing to bet that every one of you knows an intersex person and you don't even know it.

What percentage of the population do you think is intersex?

[i am not a hat]

estimates range from 40 to 60 percent of humans have tiny vaginas on the tips of their penis

[GreyHam]

I would be willing to bet that every one of you knows an intersex person and you don't even know it.

The level of general ignorance here is pretty sobering after spending the week in an Anti-Racism Anti-Oppression training course...

its possible, but gien that most are given allignment surgery at birth chances are they dont even know it

the percentage that remain intersex is miniscule

[i am the robots]

you're so ignorant omg!

let's ignore that the intersexed folk are ignorant as well!

[PerpetualBurn]

I would be willing to bet that every one of you knows an intersex person and you don't even know it.


If I remember correctly, something like 0.02% of the population is intersex.

So not really.

[Scuba_Steve]

The level of general ignorance here is pretty sobering after spending the week in an Anti-Racism Anti-Oppression training course...

Do Tell.

[i am the robots]

If I remember correctly, something like 0.02% of the population is intersex.

So not really.

:lol:

[thedeadwalk!]

Here's something from the Intersex Society of North America:

To answer this question in an uncontroversial way, you’d have to first get everyone to agree on what counts as intersex —and also to agree on what should count as strictly male or strictly female. That’s hard to do. How small does a penis have to be before it counts as intersex? Do you count “sex chromosome” anomalies as intersex if there’s no apparent external sexual ambiguity?

Here’s what we do know: If you ask experts at medical centers how often a child is born so noticeably atypical in terms of genitalia that a specialist in sex differentiation is called in, the number comes out to about 1 in 1500 to 1 in 2000 births. But a lot more people than that are born with subtler forms of sex anatomy variations, some of which won’t show up until later in life.

Below we provide a summary of statistics drawn from an article by Brown University researcher Anne Fausto-Sterling. The basis for that article was an extensive review of the medical literature from 1955 to 1998 aimed at producing numeric estimates for the frequency of sex variations. Note that the frequency of some of these conditions, such as congenital adrenal hyperplasia, differs for different populations. These statistics are approximations.

Not XX and not XY - one in 1,666 births
Klinefelter (XXY) - one in 1,000 births
Androgen insensitivity syndrome - one in 13,000 births
Partial androgen insensitivity syndrome - one in 130,000 births
Classical congenital adrenal hyperplasia - one in 13,000 births
Late onset adrenal hyperplasia - one in 66 individuals
Vaginal agenesis - one in 6,000 births
Ovotestes - one in 83,000 births
Idiopathic (no discernable medical cause) - one in 110,000 births
Iatrogenic (caused by medical treatment, for instance progestin administered to pregnant mother) - no estimate
5 alpha reductase deficiency - no estimate
Mixed gonadal dysgenesis - no estimate
Complete gonadal dysgenesis - one in 150,000 births
Hypospadias (urethral opening in perineum or along penile shaft) - one in 2,000 births
Hypospadias (urethral opening between corona and tip of glans penis) - one in 770 births

Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female - one in 100 births
Total number of people receiving surgery to “normalize” genital appearance - one or two in 1,000 births

http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

[McP3000]

1% ?

thats strange...so theoretically theres a good chance one of my close friends had a sex procedure of some sort

but its not like they would admit it

[i am the robots]

omg omg no no everybodys either solidly male or female

going across the line naturally or by choice isnt possible and is disgusting

[McP3000]

omg omg no no everybodys either solidly male or female

going across the line naturally or by choice isnt possible and is disgusting

dammit

i hate it when it gets to the point when i never take mxer's posts seriously, even though they might ACTUALLY be serious

its such a dilemma

[i am the robots]

that post was clearly a joke

[Danish]

1% ?

thats strange...so theoretically theres a good chance one of my close friends had a sex procedure of some sort

but its not like they would admit it

They might not have had a "procedure" of any sort. And they would likely never admit it because people who don't fit clearly into "male" or "female" face some pretty intense barriers. They would need a safe space.

And it isn't strange at all. It's normal.

[Ganondorf]

They might not have had a "procedure" of any sort. And they would likely never admit it because people who don't fit clearly into "male" or "female" face some pretty intense barriers. They would need a safe space.

And it isn't strange at all. It's normal.


Stop making stuff up.

[Danish]

Stop making stuff up.

I'm not.

[Iskandar]

Stop making stuff up.What's made up?:confused:

[i am the robots]

ur maed up

[Ganondorf]

Anyone can say loads of people in the world are intersexed or whatever then not back it up.

[Pop music sucks]

There's been a 'third' gender in eastern cultures for hundreds, if not thousands of years. Those where their societal gender role did not identify with male or female were revered as a symbol of perfect duality.

Sex means strictly physical identification, while gender means psychological identification. You can identify physically or identify mentally. Gender roles are becoming blurred as western society gradually accepts transgender.

[Smokey D]

Following on from that,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fafafini


And it isn't strange at all. It's normal.

But also, 1% isn't normal.

But there's nothing wrong with being abnormal.

[pedro durruti]

Sex means strictly physical identification, while gender means psychological identification. You can identify physically or identify mentally. Gender roles are becoming blurred as western society gradually accepts transgender.
Yeah, the thing about psychological identification as female or male is that as rooted partly in identifying with the role those genders confer within cultural boundaries they are fairly tenuous.