Slavery Reparations?

[g°®†]

What your position on SLAVERY REPARATIONS?


(The specific actions regarding reparations for slavery include the government apologizing to slave descendants for their hardships, and awarding them financial and/or other compensation.)



I call bullshit. A formal written and spoken apology may be acceptable, but financial compensation is crap.

[Mr. Ron]

It would have made sense to give them reparations looooooooong ago, but to do it now is silly. Plus, you would have to give every single race on this planet reparations, since pretty much every people has been enslaved (differing severities, of course) in history.

[GreyHam]

indeed

i dont see how financial reparation could do anything to make someone feel better about the slavery of their ancestors

not to mention the fact that noone alive today is responsible in any way for the actions of their ancestors. Hell, its not like we were around to stop them...

an apology is a gesture of goodwill, however it really is unneccesary

[Waldo]

I want my reparations.

[dei]

No.

[ThePinkPanther]

The government should not give anything special to the descendants of slaves.

[Berner]

No reparations. People need to quit being whiny pussies and blaming others for stuff that other people's ancestor did to their ancestors.

Why should someone whose family came the country after the civil war be required to pay reparations just because they are a certain race?

[lfantwister]

Use the reparations money to fund anti-discrimination programs

[g°®†]

Use the reparations money to fund anti-discrimination programs



:lol:

[Knifeboy]

Why are you laughing?

[g°®†]

Why are you laughing?



You know how mad these 'descendants' would be if they thought they were getting monetary reparations and it went to anti-discrimination programs instead of their pockets.


lol

[lfantwister]

I personally think it's a genius idea

no free money for being born! (hillary, that means you)

[JohnXDoe]

it's a bit late. i think really old people whose parents or grand parents had close ties to slavery and its effects could collect something on their behalf. but on a case by case basis. lawsuits, essentially. i'm sure its done. which is fine. but as said, really old people.

reparations is like a big class action lawsuit, really. if not quite, you know what i mean. but its late. and every black person doesn't need a rep.

i don't think it should be an issue that is used against black people and their history, however. or one we should forget about ourselves. race is still an issue in this country. its undeniable. are todays blacks slaves? no, of course not. but thats not the point, and many want to make it so. the point is BLACK people were slaves here. under this very same, albeit changed, government. no other race was. we may have (and i say "we" as a point of history and citizenship) kicked the shi.t out of the indians, beat back the mexicans, and fought off the red coats, but most people came here for freedom. blacks came here to be enslaved to it. and yeah, black. they're still black, coloered, negro, nigg.ers. to a lot of people. including themselves, it would seem.

maybe Africa would have been great. just maybe if not for that.

for those who say they don't deserve anything, it comes down to money just because thats what it comes down to. it always comes down to money. that is how we measure justice in this country. "got him on trail for murder? yeah? ok well if he has money, sue him, too."

money counts, so money it is....

[ringworm]

Use the reparations money to fund anti-discrimination programs
so just give it all to Al Sharpton? :)



Reparations is a silly idea, I dont even see the need for an apology, because, like, all those people responsible for it are kinda dead?

[Det_Nosnip]

Wow, you're hilarious.

[JohnXDoe]

gimme 40 acres lawd, 40 acres and a mule....

[ZapatoDiablo]

Isn't affirmative action an indirect form of reparations?

[ThePinkPanther]

affirmative action is also stupid

[Danger Bird]

Isn't affirmative action an indirect form of reparations?

No. Affirmative action is done to combat disproportionate poverty among minorities and to prevent businesses from not hiring minorities. Not saying I support it, but it's not in place because people feel guilty for slavery.

[JohnXDoe]

Isn't affirmative action an indirect form of reparations?
i suppose it could be construed that way, but i would say not exactly.

this country has come a ways with its race problems. and one has to remember this problem was most severe in our south. it spread out from there. sure, racism existed everywhere. most notably in government. but its roots were deep in the south. still are to some extent. the entire counrty didn't own slaves.

but to get back on point, we have come a ways as a nation. a black man might be president. something of a LARGE step for the county. more then symbolic to many, something very profound imo. so we have evidence things are going right somehow. but to have had segregation anywhere in this country as late as the 1960's, voter suppression, back of the bus style segregation, lynchings, etc? thats a scandal and a shame in my opinion. and racism still exists here to a sometimes damaging degree. its ingrained, part of our fabric.

we may never get it out :(

so yeah i'm for whatever fair advantage can be given a minority without hurting others. some education, low cost loans, some fair hiring practices. for those who want it. make it available and easy. other stuff, too. just little things that make a difference and help people who want and will use the help.

right now we have "welfare for work" crap. people cleaning rich peoples homes for welfare. that won't do for a better country down the road. we can do better i want us to do better.

[Mr. Ron]

again, I want my reparations as well if we're going to handing them out.

[Waldo]

No.
Racist.

[italic zero]

It would probably be just but I don't see it being worthwhile.

[ringworm]

Wow, you're hilarious.
why thank you

* does a curtsey

[dei]

Racist.

No.

[Det_Nosnip]

why thank you

* does a curtsey

That was actually meant for iwantwister, but you ninja-posted before mine went through and I didn't feel like editing it.

[g°®†]

but to get back on point, we have come a ways as a nation. a black man might be president. something of a LARGE step for the county. more then symbolic to many, something very profound imo. so we have evidence things are going right somehow. but to have had segregation anywhere in this country as late as the 1960's, voter suppression, back of the bus style segregation, lynchings, etc? thats a scandal and a shame in my opinion. and racism still exists here to a sometimes damaging degree. its ingrained, part of our fabric.

we may never get it out :(



This may sound retarded, but one of the reasons I'm rooting/voting for Obama IS because he is black. It's one of those things that is huge considering our country's history.

[ringworm]

That was actually meant for iwantwister, but you ninja-posted before mine went through and I didn't feel like editing it.
lol, :thumb:

[r1mbaud]

what would we pay who for?

[lfantwister]

That was actually meant for iwantwister, but you ninja-posted before mine went through and I didn't feel like editing it.

in that case, thanks

[Mr. Ron]

where exactly will this money come from?

[monkeysonmars.]

It would probably be just but I don't see it being worthwhile.

how so?

[Der Übermensch]

I'm sorry my great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather was a rich slave owner who made his living of the ownership and misery of others. I really am. And its not like I benefited, since they lost it all in the Civil War...
But how am I responsible for what they did? How is anyone alive responsible for it? I would be royally pissed to see something of the sort happen. The sins of the father shall not be visited upon the son, and all that crap...

[Danish]

I'm sorry my great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather was a rich slave owner who made his living of the ownership and misery of others. I really am. And its not like I benefited, since they lost it all in the Civil War...
But how am I responsible for what they did? How is anyone alive responsible for it? I would be royally pissed to see something of the sort happen. The sins of the father shall not be visited upon the son, and all that crap...

Because you have to own your privilege.

The entire society is responsible, and the deeply-entrenched racism that plagues your country will never be absolved until responsibility is taken, some real, honest collective soul-searching is done, and reparations are made.

[Der Übermensch]

No, the entire society that existed in the ante-bellum United States is responsible. I'm pretty sure that everyone alive is at least 2 or three generations removed from that era.
Giving black people money because of something that happened to their ancestors will help no one. The people who aren't in great need will not be helped, and as for those who do need the money... look how great welfare has worked in the past!
If we actually want to make a difference, working on education and opportunities for african americans would be a much better idea then just throwing money at them and saying "sorry some guy you are distantly related to suffered".

[McP3000]

Im against reparations and affirmative action. Monetary reparation is basically spitting on the black ancestors who actually felt the pain of slavery, while their descendants get money for bitching about something they didn't have to go through.

[chronopops]

Im against reparations and affirmative action. Monetary reparation is basically spitting on the black ancestors who actually felt the pain of slavery, while their descendants get money for bitching about something they didn't have to go through.

You didn't explain why you were against affirmative action.

[Der Übermensch]

I would assume because people should be granted positions on their own merit rather then out of empathy for the suffering of their forefathers?

[Against Miik!]

No because we can't afford it, as a country.

[chronopops]

I would assume because people should be granted positions on their own merit rather then out of empathy for the suffering of their forefathers?

Except the suffering of their forefathers and the structure of what is America pushes down minorities, and raises whites. It's just the way in which this country functions, and always has functioned.

You have to be blind to say that everyone is given an equal opportunity from day one; see white privledge.

Edit: I'm not arguing for slavery reparations, as I think handing out money does nothing but create a very momentary solution to a much larger problem

[Danish]

No, the entire society that existed in the ante-bellum United States is responsible. I'm pretty sure that everyone alive is at least 2 or three generations removed from that era.
Giving black people money because of something that happened to their ancestors will help no one. The people who aren't in great need will not be helped, and as for those who do need the money... look how great welfare has worked in the past!
If we actually want to make a difference, working on education and opportunities for african americans would be a much better idea then just throwing money at them and saying "sorry some guy you are distantly related to suffered".

Reparations don't have to be cheques cut to individuals; in fact, no activist I've ever heard has suggested that. Every black person in the US -- during the legal enslavement of an entire "race" and since -- has suffered the affects of slavery. We have to put an end to that suffering.

[Surtr]

Except the suffering of their forefathers and the structure of what is America pushes down minorities, and raises whites. It's just the way in which this country functions, and always has functioned.

You have to be blind to say that everyone is given an equal opportunity from day one; see white privledge.

Edit: I'm not arguing for slavery reparations, as I think handing out money does nothing but create a very momentary solution to a much larger problem

Whoa whoa whoa. You're saying it here as if black people are completely discriminated against.

Things aren't equal out there completely, but in almost all cases I'd say, where a black man and a white man apply for a job, they're each given a fair chance and look at.

[chronopops]

Whoa whoa whoa. You're saying it here as if black people are completely discriminated against.

Things aren't equal out there completely, but in almost all cases I'd say, where a black man and a white man apply for a job, they're each given a fair chance and look at.

And the white man is given preference, consciously or unconsciously, because he's white, and white is human. White is power.

That is the nature of our society.

I mean, it's great to be in a dream world and believe that everyone is equal regardless of race, gender, etc, but it's just not true at all.

[Danish]

Whoa whoa whoa. You're saying it here as if black people are completely discriminated against.

Things aren't equal out there completely, but in almost all cases I'd say, where a black man and a white man apply for a job, they're each given a fair chance and look at.

While direct discrimination and, frankly, overt racism are still prevalent, racial discrimination is largely systemic in our society. It's 'invisible', in a sense.

[Hababi]

We have to put an end to that suffering.

and how do you suppose we do that?

[chronopops]

While direct discrimination and, frankly, overt racism are still prevalent, racial discrimination is largely systemic in our society. It's 'invisible', in a sense.

very well put.

[Danish]

and how do you suppose we do that?

You wouldn't like it.

[Hababi]

You wouldn't like it.

well I don't like 90% of what you propose so there wouldn't exactly be anything new in that ;)

Come on, speak up.

[Der Übermensch]

Reparations don't have to be cheques cut to individuals; in fact, no activist I've ever heard has suggested that. Every black person in the US -- during the legal enslavement of an entire "race" and since -- has suffered the affects of slavery. We have to put an end to that suffering.

Jesse Jackson/Al Sharpton seem pretty bent on it from what I hear out of their mouths... Them and their damn '40 acres and a mule'

[Hababi]

Jesse Jackson/Al Sharpton seem pretty bent on it from what I hear out of their mouths... Them and their damn '40 acres and a mule'

Jackson and Sharpton simply exploit their followers and those they can leverage, much the way Pat Robertson does (or at least used to do till he became a total joke).

[Danish]

Jesse Jackson/Al Sharpton seem pretty bent on it from what I hear out of their mouths... Them and their damn '40 acres and a mule'

40 acres and a mule aren't the equivalent to money; they are economic security in the 1860s.

[monkeysonmars.]

Reparations don't have to be cheques cut to individuals; in fact, no activist I've ever heard has suggested that. Every black person in the US -- during the legal enslavement of an entire "race" and since -- has suffered the affects of slavery. We have to put an end to that suffering.

we being all of society not the american government

[Danish]

we being all of society not the american government

Oh no doubt. I see you are from the UK, a country that has it's own share of skeletons. But it isn't just about governments, it's about the ideologies that have been created to justify and perpetuate systems of inequality and oppression, systems still at work today. So ultimately, I think we need to break down those ideologies and their underlying systems of oppression.

[Hababi]

Oh no doubt. I see you are from the UK, a country that has it's own share of skeletons. But it isn't just about governments, it's about the ideologies that have been created to justify and perpetuate systems of inequality and oppression, systems still at work today. So ultimately, I think we need to break down those ideologies and their underlying systems of oppression.

You're still not giving specifics :o:smash:

[Smokey D]

how so?

Because black people were put in a position where they have continued to suffer various hardships because of slavery despite its formal abolishment.


It would probably be just but I don't see it being worthwhile.

Winner.

A similar debate is whether to give reparations for land taken from native minorities. Instinctively, and according to the logic that denies the descendants of slaves reparations, we say 'no, we took it from their ancestors, not from them. They haven't lost anything'. The law, however, recognises things like consequential loss and denied earning potential. In illegally depriving the native Americans (or Maori or Aborigines) from their land, white settlement destroyed the earning potential of future generations and no doubt caused other social problems. If your grandfather stole my grandfather's factory 2 generations ago, I could still pursue a claim. I don't understand why it's different here. If generally applicable human rights and individual responsibility are all that we should be worried about, then we need to abolish huge sections of the law as well.

However, I don't think you can pay for what 'society' has done, since that's far to dynamic and nebulous a thing on which to pin down culpability.

[Hababi]

Because black people were put in a position where they have continued to suffer various hardships because of slavery despite its formal abolishment.



Winner.

A similar debate is whether to give reparations for land taken from native minorities. Instinctively, and according to the logic that denies the descendants of slaves reparations, we say 'no, we took it from their ancestors, not from them. They haven't lost anything'. The law, however, recognises things like consequential loss and denied earning potential. In illegally depriving the native Americans (or Maori or Aborigines) from their land, white settlement destroyed the earning potential of future generations and no doubt caused other social problems. If your grandfather stole my grandfather's factory 2 generations ago, I could still pursue a claim. I don't understand why it's different here.

That's a palpable, material object that would have documented, tangible legal standing. So it's not a great analogy.

[Smokey D]

I assume you'd have to demonstrate some sort of consequential loss to be due any reparations.

[monkeysonmars.]

if a situation cannot be avoided then the question of justice isn't even relevant. if you could show a way in which the effects of decades of slavery can be removed hundreds of years after it occurred then i guess you would be showing a just solution.

[Smokey D]

What?

It would be just because it would be compensating people for the suffering and hardship they continue to endure as a result of slavery, not because of the hardship their ancestors suffered as slaves.

[monkeysonmars.]

i'm saying how is that possible in any conceivable way?

[Smokey D]

How is it possible that slavery still causes suffering?

I dunno, it entrenches poverty for one thing.

[monkeysonmars.]

how is it possible to give reparations in a manner that reverses the effects of slavery?

[Against Miik!]

It wouldn't cause any actual good. It would only be for the sake of making a statement. So even if we did give out reparations, there would still be those who would say it isn't enough. It would never be enough, so there would be no way to win. Might as well give nothing when giving everything would have the result.

[Smokey D]

Money makes people less poor?

I don't know if reparations could reverse the effects of slavery, as you put it, but that's not necessarily the point.

It wouldn't cause any actual good. It would only be for the sake of making a statement. So even if we did give out reparations, there would still be those who would say it isn't enough. It would never be enough, so there would be no way to win. Might as well give nothing when giving everything would have the result.

You guys should have like a Tribunal system and then place a time limit on when claims can be lodged. It'd be over in 20 years.

[italic zero]

how so?
It would probably be just because black America is still suffering from the repurcussions of slavery, but it wouldn't be worthwhile because monetary compensation wouldn't really solve any of those problems.

[south_of_heaven 11]

I've always kinda thought the Jews have had it worse than the African-Americans...:/

But I'm with Der Übermensch on this one. Reparations do not solve anything. It's not like we're going to give an African-American $100 bucks and expect everything to be super-dooper. It's a waste of time and money that could be spent on something to better the racism problem.

[McP3000]

Racism problem? Are you talking about affirmative action?

[Iskandar]

Racism problem? Are you talking about affirmative action?Blacks live in perfect equality with whites in America.

[lfantwister]

if anything affirmative action should be given to latinos

[McP3000]

Blacks live in perfect equality with whites in America.
It was a joke

And blacks do live in perfect equality, they are just too busy getting their welfare checks to notice




OH GOD IM BEING SERIOUS AGAIN SOMEONE SHOOT ME

[Iskandar]

It was a joke

And blacks do live in perfect equality, they are just too busy getting their welfare checks to notice




OH GOD IM BEING SERIOUS AGAIN SOMEONE SHOOT MEYou're a racist!

[McP3000]

You're a racist!

I KNOW CONVERT ME TO YOUR PAGAN BELIEFS

or maybe it is too late for me

[Iskandar]

Blacks can get themselves out of poverty. It's their fault they're poor, after all.

[1338 h4x0r]

I KNOW CONVERT ME TO YOUR PAGAN BELIEFS


You may partake in my next Julblót, fellow son of the North!

[Mr. Ron]

I'm still waiting for my reparations. I want my suffering to end too! Damn Roman Empire!

[1338 h4x0r]

I'm still waiting for my reparations. I want my suffering to end too! Damn Roman Empire!

LOL yes, I deserve a fat check from the governments of the United Kingdom, France, Sweden, Germany, Denmark, Italy, ...

[Mr. Ron]

Really though, its terrible what we did to blacks, but IF they want money (I've heard other suggestions for reparations that are not monetary) then they can forget it.

[1338 h4x0r]

Really though, its terrible what we did to blacks, but IF they want money (I've heard other suggestions for reparations that are not monetary) then they can forget it.

Just hide the checks somewhere away from the porch; then they won't find them, daaaawg

[McP3000]

Just hide the checks somewhere away from the porch; then they won't find them, daaaawg
what the hell

[1338 h4x0r]

what the hell

Or in their work boots. Cuz they don't work. LOL. :p

[Mr. Ron]

*slowclap*

[McP3000]

Or in their work boots. Cuz they don't work. LOL. :p
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT

...

[Smokey D]

I'm still waiting for my reparations. I want my suffering to end too! Damn Roman Empire!

Feasibility is irrelevant to justice.

[McP3000]

i love how Smokey D answers troll posts seriously

[Mr. Ron]

Feasibility is irrelevant to justice.

still though, I don't think money is a good way to do it. What other ways are there?

[ringworm]

Blacks can get themselves out of poverty. It's their fault they're poor, after all.
not at all thread related, but
its funny how poor white people never get brought up in discussions about social class, economic status etc.

[Iskandar]

its funny how poor white people never get brought up in discussions about social class, economic status etc.A far greater proportion of blacks are poor than whites, correct?

Though ultimately poverty is poverty.

[DBoons Ghost]

I'm dead against reperations in any capacity unless full and complete accountability is accurately represented in who actually has to pay. I'm American but my family came here in the 1920s and I have nothing to be held accountable for so if my tax dollars went to the blacks you could actually prove were ex-slaves I'd be pissed. I'm pissed about the money we have to give Native Americans. Is that the proper politically correct way to make conquering a people right?

Why can't we hold the tribal African leaders who sold the Dutch slaves responsible as well? Sue them and take their money? Make the Egyptians pay the Jews back for all eternity for every tourist who pays a penny to see the pyramids? Make the Romans give money to everyone in the Mediterannean? Where does it end?

The very idea of reperations is absurd to me.

[VomitStainedCretin]

The after-effects of slavery may have left black Americans in poverty but monetary reparations just breeds a sense of entitlement and does nothing positive to attempt to combat deprivation.

[Mr. Ron]

The after-effects of slavery may have left black Americans in poverty but monetary reparations just breeds a sense of entitlement and does nothing positive to attempt to combat deprivation.

^^^

[Jharaski]

I'm dead against reperations in any capacity unless full and complete accountability is accurately represented in who actually has to pay. I'm American but my family came here in the 1920s and I have nothing to be held accountable for so if my tax dollars went to the blacks you could actually prove were ex-slaves I'd be pissed. I'm pissed about the money we have to give Native Americans. Is that the proper politically correct way to make conquering a people right?

Why can't we hold the tribal African leaders who sold the Dutch slaves responsible as well? Sue them and take their money? Make the Egyptians pay the Jews back for all eternity for every tourist who pays a penny to see the pyramids? Make the Romans give money to everyone in the Mediterannean? Where does it end?

The very idea of reperations is absurd to me.

Sure your ancestors had nothing to do with it, but they can just argue that because OTHERS did it, you reaped the benefits from the improved economy. Then again, so did they, so that argument is defunct.

[DBoons Ghost]

Sure your ancestors had nothing to do with it, but they can just argue that because OTHERS did it, you reaped the benefits from the improved economy. Then again, so did they, so that argument is defunct.

How did southerners getting slaves to pick cotton and crack corn in the 1800s benefit me exactly?

[g°®†]

Precedents

Under the Civil Liberties Act of 1988, signed into law by President Ronald Reagan, the U.S. government apologized for Japanese American internment during World War II and provided reparations of $20,000 to each survivor, to compensate for loss of property and liberty during that period. For many years, Native American tribes have received compensation for lands ceded to the United States by them in various treaties. Other countries have also opted to pay reparations for past grievances see Holocaust reparations. Opponents argue that these precedents do not apply to the issue of African-American slave reparations, however, because the precedent cases were reparations given to the actual victims of those events rather than descendants removed from the victims by several generations.


Quoted from Wikipedia.org

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_for_slavery

[Berner]

The Japanese deserved reparations because they were the people who actually FIRST HAND experienced the loss. The Japanese Canadians also received reparations (if I remember that class I took correctly) for their internment during WWII.

[guitrguy]

Canada had internment camps also?

Sure your ancestors had nothing to do with it, but they can just argue that because OTHERS did it, you reaped the benefits from the improved economy. Then again, so did they, so that argument is defunct.

except no who lived then is alive today. reparation 150 years too late is utterly retarded and pointless.

[1338 h4x0r]

not at all thread related, but
its funny how poor white people never get brought up in discussions about social class, economic status etc.

Probably cuz they aren't educated.

[Berner]

Canada had internment camps also?

Yeah they did.

[guitrguy]

Learn something new everyday

[chronopops]

How did southerners getting slaves to pick cotton and crack corn in the 1800s benefit me exactly?

It further perpetuated the idea that whites are superior to blacks, and helped elevate whites in and even higher, untouchable, position of power.

The fact that you're white has everything to do with the benefits and privileges you receive, that black people don't, on a daily basis.

The only people who argue against white privilege are privileged whites who can't accept that the world is easier for them because of the color of their skin, and the privileges that come with that. For some reason they equate this to them having to disregard all their hardships and experiences because they were privileged, which isn't the case, bth.

[g°®†]

you have to admit though that the popular black image doesn't help them.


Too many people aspiring to be like soulja boi rather than Denzel Washington.


If we had more Denzel Washingtons, the black demographic would see less racism and be able to move up in society.

[Mr. Ron]

It further perpetuated the idea that whites are superior to blacks, and helped elevate whites in and even higher, untouchable, position of power.

The fact that you're white has everything to do with the benefits and privileges you receive, that black people don't, on a daily basis.

The only people who argue against white privilege are privileged whites who can't accept that the world is easier for them because of the color of their skin, and the privileges that come with that. For some reason they equate this to them having to disregard all their hardships and experiences because they were privileged, which isn't the case, bth.

Personally, I think class has more to do with that than race ever will.

[Dies Irae]

brb going to take a priviliged and white piss

[DBoons Ghost]

The fact that you're white has everything to do with the benefits and privileges you receive, that black people don't, on a daily basis.

Actually black people have more priviliges and benefits then I do, as well as Latinos and any other minority. The only ones who seem to use those benefits rather then work are black and latino people. Other minority groups seem to get jobs and work and do what they gotta do. It must be something else.

The only people who argue against white privilege are privileged whites who can't accept that the world is easier for them because of the color of their skin, and the privileges that come with that. For some reason they equate this to them having to disregard all their hardships and experiences because they were privileged, which isn't the case, bth.

Out of touch, untouchable positions of power are easily attainable by anyone who can run and win.

Black people make up 11% to 12% of the total population regardless of the fact that their own people sold them to Dutchmen to bring here. Either way, there are a similar amount of asians in this country and there are barely any asians in the senate. Ever hear them cry racism? What about Italians? Far and few between in Congress. Never an Italian President. We had us an Irish in Kennedy but they killed him.

Anyways I know civil rights came a long way in this country and we have a long way to go but this nonsense is not the answer.

I'm not white either, at least in the caucasion sense and I'll argue that till blue in the face, or fingers as it were.. My family came here in the 20s from Italy and Sicily. We are not white and never will be.

You seem to not know very much about this subject aside from the tired rhetoric I can find anywhere else.

[guitrguy]

If we had more Denzel Washingtons, the black demographic would see less racism and be able to move up in society.
I personally think that is just as "racist" as keeping the Soulja Boy culture down.

[Mr. Ron]

I personally think that is just as "racist" as keeping the Soulja Boy culture down.
this needs to be destroyed.

[Dies Irae]

yah trick yahhh

[ringworm]

The fact that you're white has everything to do with the benefits and privileges you receive, that black people don't, on a daily basis
wow :/

i wonder when this perception, or chip on your shoulder, will finally be too old of an argument to use for every downfall of non-whites, since the vast majority of even your most stereotypical racist areas of the country don't feel the way people did when your theory was even applicable, way back then?

I just don't see how holding onto such a backwards blaming philosophy constitutes a progressive movement towards positive change.

[chronopops]

Actually black people have more priviliges and benefits then I do, as well as Latinos and any other minority. The only ones who seem to use those benefits rather then work are black and latino people. Other minority groups seem to get jobs and work and do what they gotta do. It must be something else.
No they don't. They're getting jobs because it's necessary in order to help raise minorities from their status in the US.

Out of touch, untouchable positions of power are easily attainable by anyone who can run and win.

Black people make up 11% to 12% of the total population regardless of the fact that their own people sold them to Dutchmen to bring here. Either way, there are a similar amount of asians in this country and there are barely any asians in the senate. Ever hear them cry racism? What about Italians? Far and few between in Congress. Never an Italian President. We had us an Irish in Kennedy but they killed him.

Anyways I know civil rights came a long way in this country and we have a long way to go but this nonsense is not the answer.

I'm not white either, at least in the caucasion sense and I'll argue that till blue in the face, or fingers as it were.. My family came here in the 20s from Italy and Sicily. We are not white and never will be.

You seem to not know very much about this subject aside from the tired rhetoric I can find anywhere else.

You seem to cling to the fact that you don't get privilege for being white, and then try to make references to other white minorities that could more easily escape racism, but that's not applicable nor does it make sense.

Here's numerous examples of you, a Euro American, getting privilege that people of color don't:

-You, as a white person, at less likely to be arrested than a black person. Once arrested you are less likely to be convicted, and if convicted you're less likely to go to prison regardless of the crime or circumstances. Whites, constitute 85% of those who use illegal drugs, but less than half of those in prison on drug use charges are white.
-Although many superstar professional athletes are black, in general black players are held to higher standards than whites. It is easier for a "good but not great" white player to make a professional team that it is for a similar black.
-Whites are more likely than comparable blacks to have loan applications approved and less likely to be given poor information or the runaround during the application process
-Whites are charged lower prices for new and used cars than are people of color, and residential segregation gives whites access to higher-quality goods of all kinds at cheaper prices
-Whites can choose whether to be conscious of their racial identity or to ignore it and regard themselves as simply human beings without a race.
-Whites are more likely to control conversations and be allowed to get away with it and to have their ideas and contributions taken seriously, including those that were suggested previously by a person of color and ignored and dismissed.
-Whats can usually assume that national hereos, success models, and other figures held up for general admiration will be of their race.
-Whites can generally assume that when they go out in public, they won't be challenged and asked to explain what they're doing, nor will they be attacked by hate groups simply because of their race.
-Whites can assume when they go shopping, they'll be treated as serious customers not as potential shoplifters or people without the money to make a purchase. When they try to cash a check or use a credit card, they can assume they won't be hassled for additional identification and will be given the benefit of the doubt.
-White representation in government and the ruling of circles of corporations, universities, and other organizations is disproportionately high.
-Most whites are not segregated into communities that isolate them from the best job opportunities, schools, and community services
-Whites have greater access to quality educations and health care.
-Whites are more likely to be given early opportunities to show what they can do at work, to be identified as potential canidates for a promotion, to be mentored, to be given a second chance when they fail,. and to be allowed to treat failure as a learning experience rather than an indication of who they are and the shortcomings of their race.
-Whites can assume that race won't be used to predict whether they'll fit in at worm or whether teammates will feel comfortable working with them.
-Whites can succeed without other people being surprised
-Whites don't have to deal with an endless and exhausting stream of attention to their race. They can simply take their race for granted as unremarkable to the extent of experiencing themselves as not even having a race.

Privledge, Power, and difference, Allan G. Johnson, Ph. D. (27)
Need I continue?

wow :/
i wonder when this perception, or chip on your shoulder, will finally be too old of an argument to use for every downfall of non-whites, since the vast majority of even your most stereotypical racist areas of the country don't feel the way people did when your theory was even applicable, way back then?

I just don't see how holding onto such a backwards blaming philosophy constitutes a progressive movement towards positive change.

It's not blaming, it's just the way it is. Our society is fashioned in a way that white=better, white=power, I have no control over that. It's institutionalized racism. You don't have to act out against people because of their race to be racist, you are inherently racist because you're white, and in America, white is power, white is privilege. The benefits you receive daily, unknowingly or knowingly, oppress people of color.

I'm white, btw.

It's easy to deny you get privilege, because it's hard to see something that is a positive. If you talk to a minority they can tell you what privileges they don't get because it has a negative effect on their life.

No one is blaming, more or less, you're denying.

[ringworm]

lol, wow

[DBoons Ghost]

But all of that is stereotypical and cannot be proven chrono. It's all crap to me and none of it is accurate or true. It's just one guy's opinions somehow made into fact. I appreciate what you're trying to do but just because you read some book by some guy doesn't make it fact.

Your power of assumption is astounding in this case. I'm sorry but I have to call bullshit on your entire post. I won't argue it of course or offer any retort but it's all so poorly put together bullshit that even your text wreaks of poop.

[Dies Irae]

-Whites can choose whether to be conscious of their racial identity or to ignore it and regard themselves as simply human beings without a race. lol

[DBoons Ghost]

lol

Exactly.. I mean.. it's absurd.

How is something like that a proven fact presented in this context regarding this arguement?

Absurd.

[chronopops]

But all of that is stereotypical and cannot be proven chrono. It's all crap to me and none of it is accurate or true. It's just one guy's opinions somehow made into fact. I appreciate what you're trying to do but just because you read some book by some guy doesn't make it fact.

Your power of assumption is astounding in this case. I'm sorry but I have to call bullshit on your entire post. I won't argue it of course or offer any retort but it's all so poorly put together bullshit that even your text wreaks of poop.

You are the archetypical white man, Dboon. It's easy to be white and play the racist card against the racist card (eg ;I'm white, and I'M suffering racism), but it really holds no water, and clearly you don't understand the structure in which this country, even this entire world, works.

I suggest you attempt looking at this from the perspective of a non-white person in the United States, try to understand their position and the privileges in which they denied, because as it stands you're too arrogant and prideful to do that.

[DBoons Ghost]

You are the archetypical white man, Dboon. It's easy to be white and play the racist card against the racist card (eg ;I'm white, and I'M suffering racism), but it really holds no water, and clearly you don't understand the structure in which this country, even this entire world, works.

I suggest you attempt looking at this from the perspective of a non-white person in the United States, try to understand their position and the privileges in which they denied, because as it stands you're too arrogant and prideful to do that.

Yeah just for the record I never said I was suffering racism. I merely said there are more programs to help poor minorities then there are to help poor caucasions. I know because I was once a po' white boy from the hood and the ghetto. We were all equal there. Everyone poor and no one cared. It's amazing what you can learn but I suppose I'm too arrogant and prideful and I clearly don't understand how the world works. Clearly!

So, as Mr Ron pointed out, it's more a class issue. You can ignore that though and take this opportunity to say that.. *ahem* "I don't understand the structure in which this country, even this entire world, works." That's brilliant. I bet you read that one back to yourself a few times and gave yourself a mental pat on the back. Even I chuckled aloud. It's good, but not true. I'll let it go. I'm arrogant and prideful but not so much in my heritage or even the color of my skin, but it's cool you stuck that in there.

My co worker who is black laughed at your bleeding heart and clueless arguement. Po is po kiddo. Everything else is just an excuse.

[chronopops]

Yeah just for the record I never said I was suffering racism. I merely said there are more programs to help poor minorities then there are to help poor caucasions. I know because I was once a po' white boy from the hood and the ghetto. We were all equal there. Everyone poor and no one cared. It's amazing what you can learn but I suppose I'm too arrogant and prideful and I clearly don't understand how the world works. Clearly!

So, as Mr Ron pointed out, it's more a class issue. You can ignore that though and take this opportunity to say that.. *ahem* "I don't understand the structure in which this country, even this entire world, works." That's brilliant. I bet you read that one back to yourself a few times and gave yourself a mental pat on the back. Even I chuckled aloud. It's good, but not true. I'll let it go. I'm arrogant and prideful but not so much in my heritage or even the color of my skin, but it's cool you stuck that in there.

My co worker who is black laughed at your bleeding heart and clueless arguement. Po is po kiddo. Everything else is just an excuse.

That may be true, but who is in bigger trouble as a group? Whites? Or people of color? I think the answer is obvious.

Not only that, but who has an easier time escaping poverty? :-\

You're arrogant and prideful because you can't admit that being white has helped you in this world. For you to admit that you feel you have to throw away every sacrifice and hardship you went through in your life. That's not true though, but that's what people like you think.

So, as Mr Ron pointed out, it's more a class issue
Classism and racism are totally seperate issues.


That's brilliant. I bet you read that one back to yourself a few times and gave yourself a mental pat on the back.
There's no need to be sarcastic and facetious, I'm not being a-hole to you- show me some respect.

My co worker who is black laughed at your bleeding heart and clueless arguement. Po is po kiddo. Everything else is just an excuse.
And this is why you are ignorant.

Should I even pursue this argument any further, with you, Dboon? You didn't even address my first post...you just wrote it off...seems like a cop out to me.

[DBoons Ghost]

Dude you have no idea what I endured in my life the same as I have no idea what anyone has endured, much less be judged on it based on a paragraph of text on a forum.

Learn to post for christ's sakes. Call it a cop out or whatever you want. You win. I don't argue with idiots because that makes me an idiot. I didn't even say that last part. My coworker did. Though I would.

This topic is about reperations for slavery. It's not about racism persay. I presented an argument and your retort was more about a soapbox than it was about addressing anything I or others have previously said.

You can win though. I bow down to your intellectual prowess on the subject of racism. You sure got the best of me. Oh whatever shall I do.

[chronopops]

Why are you so upset? Why are you so offended?

I didn't say I had an idea of what you went through, but you said you grew up poor, and I described the common mindset and misconception of that mindset that people who succeed in those conditions have.

You win. I don't argue with idiots because that makes me an idiot
Straight for the ad hominem, very classy.

You need to learn to post, not me. I'm engaging in a friendly argument, you're just being a dick.

This topic is about reperations for slavery. It's not about racism persay. I presented an argument and your retort was more about a soapbox than it was about addressing anything I or others have previoously said.
I can't control the tangential nature of topics on a web forum...You addressed my point, which was about racism. IF you didn't want to talk about racism you could have just ignored my post...

I still don't understand why you're being sarcastic and vile.

[DBoons Ghost]

Lol.. You want me to be upset and offended? Ok. Damn you! Rotton smarty pants kid! How dare you! Don't you know I know everything? blah blah etc etc..

How do people draw all that emotion from my posts? Why am I the target when I merely repeated what others have stated?

I'm being a dick because this is stupid and has nothing to do with why black folks.. rather.. ex slaves if we can even prove they exist.. don't deserve reperations. I'm not gonna post anymore chrono. I'm not mad or pissed or offended and I'm not even going to insult you. It's idiotic.

EDIT: Truly though I only have 20 mins of work left and I'd rather spend it lulzing in the GD then argueing this crap with you or anyone. Sorry for dismissing what you have to say but it's not even on topic.

[Hoyle00cdn]

Dude you have no idea what I endured in my life the same as I have no idea what anyone has endured, much less be judged on it based on a paragraph of text on a forum.

Learn to post for christ's sakes. Call it a cop out or whatever you want. You win. I don't argue with idiots because that makes me an idiot. I didn't even say that last part. My coworker did. Though I would.

This topic is about reperations for slavery. It's not about racism persay. I presented an argument and your retort was more about a soapbox than it was about addressing anything I or others have previously said.

You can win though. I bow down to your intellectual prowess on the subject of racism. You sure got the best of me. Oh whatever shall I do.

You can't point to an anomoly and claim it to be the norm....I fail to see how your life in the ghetto responds to what Chrono is arguing.

[chronopops]

Lol.. You want me to be upset and offended? Ok. Damn you! Rotton smarty pants kid! How dare you! Don't you know I know everything? blah blah etc etc..

How do people draw all that emotion from my posts? Why am I the target when I merely repeated what others have stated?

I'm being a dick because this is stupid and has nothing to do with why black folks.. rather.. ex slaves if we can even prove they exist.. don't deserve reperations. I'm not gonna post anymore chrono. I'm not mad or pissed or offended and I'm not even going to insult you. It's idiotic.

EDIT: Truly though I only have 20 mins of work left and I'd rather spend it lulzing in the GD then argueing this crap with you or anyone. Sorry for dismissing what you have to say but it's not even on topic.

Fair enough, dude. You just sounded extremely upset, if you weren't then so be it, but just don't hold any resentment towards me. I wouldn't like that. :(

[dei]

ex slaves if we can even prove they exist..

What?

[DBoons Ghost]

You can't point to an anomoly and claim it to be the norm....I fail to see how your life in the ghetto responds to what Chrono is arguing.

That's great but maybe you should go back and read it all over again before stepping in and saying I used my life in the ghetto as a means to defend a point.

[spitfirejunky]

Here's numerous examples of you, a Euro American, getting privilege that people of color don't:

-You, as a white person, at less likely to be arrested than a black person. Once arrested you are less likely to be convicted, and if convicted you're less likely to go to prison regardless of the crime or circumstances. Whites, constitute 85% of those who use illegal drugs, but less than half of those in prison on drug use charges are white.
-Although many superstar professional athletes are black, in general black players are held to higher standards than whites. It is easier for a "good but not great" white player to make a professional team that it is for a similar black.
-Whites are more likely than comparable blacks to have loan applications approved and less likely to be given poor information or the runaround during the application process
-Whites are charged lower prices for new and used cars than are people of color, and residential segregation gives whites access to higher-quality goods of all kinds at cheaper prices
-Whites can choose whether to be conscious of their racial identity or to ignore it and regard themselves as simply human beings without a race.
-Whites are more likely to control conversations and be allowed to get away with it and to have their ideas and contributions taken seriously, including those that were suggested previously by a person of color and ignored and dismissed.
-Whats can usually assume that national hereos, success models, and other figures held up for general admiration will be of their race.
-Whites can generally assume that when they go out in public, they won't be challenged and asked to explain what they're doing, nor will they be attacked by hate groups simply because of their race.
-Whites can assume when they go shopping, they'll be treated as serious customers not as potential shoplifters or people without the money to make a purchase. When they try to cash a check or use a credit card, they can assume they won't be hassled for additional identification and will be given the benefit of the doubt.
-White representation in government and the ruling of circles of corporations, universities, and other organizations is disproportionately high.
-Most whites are not segregated into communities that isolate them from the best job opportunities, schools, and community services
-Whites have greater access to quality educations and health care.
-Whites are more likely to be given early opportunities to show what they can do at work, to be identified as potential canidates for a promotion, to be mentored, to be given a second chance when they fail,. and to be allowed to treat failure as a learning experience rather than an indication of who they are and the shortcomings of their race.
-Whites can assume that race won't be used to predict whether they'll fit in at worm or whether teammates will feel comfortable working with them.
-Whites can succeed without other people being surprised
-Whites don't have to deal with an endless and exhausting stream of attention to their race. They can simply take their race for granted as unremarkable to the extent of experiencing themselves as not even having a race.

This is the ultimate wall of bullshit and half-assed statistical correlations.

At most a quarter of these are directly a consequence of the idea that populations of black people are more likely composed of "poor" people (which in itself is disputable and case-specific), and the rest are just malicious lies.

[DBoons Ghost]

Fair enough, dude. You just sounded extremely upset, if you weren't then so be it, but just don't hold any resentment towards me. I wouldn't like that. :(


C'mon with that nonsense. We could have had the same discussion face to face and walked away together like nothing and gone and had a beer and probably kept talking about it. I'm sure we misunderstood something in there as is often the case. Even so you made good points about racism overall but it still had no bearing on giving black people free money after all these years.

[DBoons Ghost]

What?

Don't even get involved now dei.

Prove a slave owner's blood line just the same as you could prove an ex slave's blood line for fact. Factually tie an ex-slave to a slave owning family proving they got rich on the backs of the black man so they could sue for reperations.

Go for it!

[Hoyle00cdn]

That's great but maybe you should go back and read it all over again before stepping in and saying I used my life in the ghetto as a means to defend a point.

You made it sound like you were pointing to your experience in the ghetto as proof that you can identify with the life of a poor black man.

[dei]

I understood that as if you're denying that slavery even happened.

[DBoons Ghost]

You made it sound like you were pointing to your experience in the ghetto as proof that you can identify with the life of a poor black man.

I did nothing of the sort. You wish to make it go that way I can't stop you. Context and all, you know.

I could never identify with a poor black man. I can identify with any poor man who doesn't choose to hide behind the color of his skin and blam society for it.

That I can identify with. I don't expect you to understand. Come to NYC I'm sure I can show you.

[DBoons Ghost]

I understood that as if you're denying that slavery even happened.

Lol.. slavery denial! It's like holocaust denial only even more asinine.

C'mon man. Is comprehension that low or are my posts really that bad?

Anyways I'm leaving work now. Smoochies to all of you.

[Hoyle00cdn]

That I can identify with. I don't expect you to understand. Come to NYC I'm sure I can show you.

Unfortunately, that argument leads no where. It's like a feminist saying..."You just don't understand, you're not a woman". You don't have to be poor, or been poor, to formulate an opinion on the topic.

I did nothing of the sort. You wish to make it go that way I can't stop you. Context and all, you know.

I could never identify with a poor black man. I can identify with any poor man who doesn't choose to hide behind the color of his skin and blam society for it.

This might be the source of why you and Chrono aren't seeing eye to eye. You appear to defending the position that liberalism is the ultimate tool for human equality; while Chrono appears to be arguing from the positions that liberalism itself, has become a new form of subjection.

[south_of_heaven 11]

-Although many superstar professional athletes are black, in general black players are held to higher standards than whites. It is easier for a "good but not great" white player to make a professional team that it is for a similar black.

Wait what? More like the other way around buddy. Blacks make up 90% of the NBA and 70% of the American NFL. Not only that, but it was brought under study last year that blacks have better genes to become athletes, hence the reason why there are so many in pro sports. In short, you've got to be a sick-nasty white boy to play with the black kids at the pro level. Take a look at the top high-school football prospects (example: top 10 defensive lineman)...yeup, all black.

[Hoyle00cdn]

Not only that, but it was brought under study last year that blacks have better genes to become athletes, hence the reason why there are so many in pro sports.
I bet there are 10 scientists who argue this to be false for every one scientist who says it's true.

[chronopops]

Wait what? More like the other way around buddy. Blacks make up 90% of the NBA and 70% of the American NFL. Not only that, but it was brought under study last year that blacks have better genes to become athletes, hence the reason why there are so many in pro sports. In short, you've got to be a sick-nasty white boy to play with the black kids at the pro level. Take a look at the top high-school football prospects (example: top 10 defensive lineman)...yeup, all black.

It doesn't say that blacks don't make up the majority of the players in athletes in professional sports, read it again.

It comments on how they're held to a higher standard than the white players because here's expected to be good.

And no, genes don't have really anything to do with it.

[guitrguy]

Wait what? More like the other way around buddy. Blacks make up 90% of the NBA and 70% of the American NFL. Not only that, but it was brought under study last year that blacks have better genes to become athletes, hence the reason why there are so many in pro sports. In short, you've got to be a sick-nasty white boy to play with the black kids at the pro level. Take a look at the top high-school football prospects (example: top 10 defensive lineman)...yeup, all black.
umm black people aren't a different species.

[south_of_heaven 11]

Meh, I'll stick with genes still having a lot to do with it.

I know your post wasn't talking about the number of blacks in pro sports. I just used that as a reference to show that if you're white, and you want to compete in the pros, your skills better equal those of a black player because they dominate. And coming from someone who plays football in college, I can tell you right now that if you had two players who played the same position, same strength/speed/weight/height, the black player would get more looks simply because they're regarded as better athletes.

So in a way, they are held to higher standards, and 8/10 they are able to meet those standards. But to say that "good not great" gets a white guy into pro sports is crazy talk. As a white guy and someone who plays college ball, I am not ashamed to say that blacks are superior in athletics.

EDIT: Ok forget all of this. I'm railroading this thread and turning it into a topic of blacks being in sports. This has nothing to do with slavery reparations.

[guitrguy]

thats quite a vague response.

[Smokey D]

The after-effects of slavery may have left black Americans in poverty but monetary reparations just breeds a sense of entitlement and does nothing positive to attempt to combat deprivation.

You'd have to administer it properly, but this isn't the automatic result. Lots of countries have reparation schemes for things done in the past that manage to avoid entitlement. In fact, in New Zealand, it's avoiding the issues of Treaty reparation that breed entitlement mentalities far more than their successful resolution.

Whether this could be translated to the unique case of American slavery and whether it would be worthwhile I don't know, but that's not a reason not to look into it.

[r1mbaud]

Here's numerous examples of you, a Euro American, getting privilege that people of color don't:

-You, as a white person, at less likely to be arrested than a black person. Once arrested you are less likely to be convicted, and if convicted you're less likely to go to prison regardless of the crime or circumstances. Whites, constitute 85% of those who use illegal drugs, but less than half of those in prison on drug use charges are white.
How the **** would you know how the percentage of whites who use drugs, other than what arrests are. Even then that doesnt mean anything. Thats a worthless statistic that cannot be proven.
-Although many superstar professional athletes are black, in general black players are held to higher standards than whites. It is easier for a "good but not great" white player to make a professional team that it is for a similar black.
says who? this is stupid you cannot prove this you would never get any drafter to ever admit that ever. stop fooling yourself with this nonsense.
-Whites are more likely than comparable blacks to have loan applications approved and less likely to be given poor information or the runaround during the application process
i want an exact source real statistics from a real book, using a real scientific method.
-Whites are charged lower prices for new and used cars than are people of color, and residential segregation gives whites access to higher-quality goods of all kinds at cheaper prices
uhhh.. price is based on quality, not who they're selling it to. that doesnt even make sense, all chain stores/restaurants charge the same in the same state.
-Whites can choose whether to be conscious of their racial identity or to ignore it and regard themselves as simply human beings without a race.
its cooler to be black now than it ever was, they made it that way, it was the whole cultures choice. I'm sorry for any individual black person who wants to ignore skin color and can't thats a psychological problem they need to deal with themselves. More black people pressure black people to act like a stereotypical black person than any white man
-Whites are more likely to control conversations and be allowed to get away with it and to have their ideas and contributions taken seriously, including those that were suggested previously by a person of color and ignored and dismissed.
prove it. in my experience, black people are the ones yelling and being obnoxious, there are some white football players. They yell too but theres only so many white obnoxious people as there are only so many football players (and screenplay writers who talk really loud about nietzsche) as opposed to the whole culture of rampant gangster rap.
-Whats can usually assume that national hereos, success models, and other figures held up for general admiration will be of their race.
??? just as black can usually assume national heroes successful models and other figures held up for general admiration will be of THEIR race! You are so racist, it's insane, i dont care if youre white, you are a racist.
-Whites can generally assume that when they go out in public, they won't be challenged and asked to explain what they're doing, nor will they be attacked by hate groups simply because of their race.
WHAT?! are you more likely to be attacked being white and going to harlem, or going to alabama being black?
-Whites can assume when they go shopping, they'll be treated as serious customers not as potential shoplifters or people without the money to make a purchase. When they try to cash a check or use a credit card, they can assume they won't be hassled for additional identification and will be given the benefit of the doubt.
This all depends on their dress, whenever i go into a walmart late at night they say stuff like "Lucy send diane to turn all security cameras on"
-White representation in government and the ruling of circles of corporations, universities, and other organizations is disproportionately high.
its a shame but true
-Most whites are not segregated into communities that isolate them from the best job opportunities, schools, and community services
-Whites have greater access to quality educations and health care.
-Whites are more likely to be given early opportunities to show what they can do at work, to be identified as potential canidates for a promotion, to be mentored, to be given a second chance when they fail,. and to be allowed to treat failure as a learning experience rather than an indication of who they are and the shortcomings of their race.same point
-Whites can assume that race won't be used to predict whether they'll fit in at worm or whether teammates will feel comfortable working with them.
wrong. try joining a black church. sometimes people segregate themselves. Thats what happens with whites. it's not always forced.
-Whites can succeed without other people being surprised
what the **** is this youre ABSURD!
-Whites don't have to deal with an endless and exhausting stream of attention to their race. They can simply take their race for granted as unremarkable to the extent of experiencing themselves as not even having a race.
are you kidding me!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!? you make me sick. this is the most racist declaration of despicable and unfounded nonsense based on stereotypes of white people which in turn contradicts EVERYTHING YOUR SAYING ABOUT WHITE RACE BEING IGNORED JUST BY SAYING THIS. IM BEING REDUNDANT SO YOU'LL GET IT!

Privledge, Power, and difference, Allan G. Johnson, Ph. D. (27)

OH KEWL, NICE BOOK HOW LEGITIMATE
Need I continue?



It's not blaming, it's just the way it is. Our society is fashioned in a way that white=better, white=power, I have no control over that. It's institutionalized racism. You don't have to act out against people because of their race to be racist, you are inherently racist because you're white, and in America, white is power, white is privilege. The benefits you receive daily, unknowingly or knowingly, oppress people of color.

youre wrong, youre brainwashed by this disgusting book, talk about POPULAR DELUSIONS AND THE MADNESS OF CROWDS, you exemplify it.

I'm white, btw.

It's easy to deny you get privilege, because it's hard to see something that is a positive. If you talk to a minority they can tell you what privileges they don't get because it has a negative effect on their life.

No one is blaming, more or less, you're denying.
pathetic.
this is a popular delusion psuedo intellectual "well-read" and "tolerant" things have.

[Hababi]

You'd have to administer it properly, but this isn't the automatic result. Lots of countries have reparation schemes for things done in the past that manage to avoid entitlement. In fact, in New Zealand, it's avoiding the issues of Treaty reparation that breed entitlement mentalities far more than their successful resolution.

Whether this could be translated to the unique case of American slavery and whether it would be worthwhile I don't know, but that's not a reason not to look into it.

Honestly, not even looking at whether it's right, it'd do more harm than good. There's already some hostility between some Latin American and black communities (one reason why Obama won't win Florida), and this would only increase those hostilities, not to mention what it would do to relations between whites and blacks.

America needs to move, as a country, into a post-race era. We need to stop thinking of people in terms of their skin color. That means that a lot of whites need to move beyond racially discriminating tendencies, but it also means that some black leaders need to stop with the politics of self segregation.

[Roy.]

What your position on SLAVERY REPARATIONS?


(The specific actions regarding reparations for slavery include the government apologizing to slave descendants for their hardships, and awarding them financial and/or other compensation.)



I call bullshit. A formal written and spoken apology may be acceptable, but financial compensation is crap.


i agree. although i could use the money...sooo...if they wanna give i'll take it. guilt money is the best money :smash:

but really there are more important things they could do with the money.

[Hoyle00cdn]

Here's numerous examples of you, a Euro American, getting privilege that people of color don't:

-You, as a white person, at less likely to be arrested than a black person. Once arrested you are less likely to be convicted, and if convicted you're less likely to go to prison regardless of the crime or circumstances. Whites, constitute 85% of those who use illegal drugs, but less than half of those in prison on drug use charges are white.
How the **** would you know how the percentage of whites who use drugs, other than what arrests are. Even then that doesnt mean anything. Thats a worthless statistic that cannot be proven.
-Although many superstar professional athletes are black, in general black players are held to higher standards than whites. It is easier for a "good but not great" white player to make a professional team that it is for a similar black.
says who? this is stupid you cannot prove this you would never get any drafter to ever admit that ever. stop fooling yourself with this nonsense.
-Whites are more likely than comparable blacks to have loan applications approved and less likely to be given poor information or the runaround during the application process
i want an exact source real statistics from a real book, using a real scientific method.
-Whites are charged lower prices for new and used cars than are people of color, and residential segregation gives whites access to higher-quality goods of all kinds at cheaper prices
uhhh.. price is based on quality, not who they're selling it to. that doesnt even make sense, all chain stores/restaurants charge the same in the same state.
-Whites can choose whether to be conscious of their racial identity or to ignore it and regard themselves as simply human beings without a race.
its cooler to be black now than it ever was, they made it that way, it was the whole cultures choice. I'm sorry for any individual black person who wants to ignore skin color and can't thats a psychological problem they need to deal with themselves. More black people pressure black people to act like a stereotypical black person than any white man
-Whites are more likely to control conversations and be allowed to get away with it and to have their ideas and contributions taken seriously, including those that were suggested previously by a person of color and ignored and dismissed.
prove it. in my experience, black people are the ones yelling and being obnoxious, there are some white football players. They yell too but theres only so many white obnoxious people as there are only so many football players (and screenplay writers who talk really loud about nietzsche) as opposed to the whole culture of rampant gangster rap.
-Whats can usually assume that national hereos, success models, and other figures held up for general admiration will be of their race.
??? just as black can usually assume national heroes successful models and other figures held up for general admiration will be of THEIR race! You are so racist, it's insane, i dont care if youre white, you are a racist.
-Whites can generally assume that when they go out in public, they won't be challenged and asked to explain what they're doing, nor will they be attacked by hate groups simply because of their race.
WHAT?! are you more likely to be attacked being white and going to harlem, or going to alabama being black?
-Whites can assume when they go shopping, they'll be treated as serious customers not as potential shoplifters or people without the money to make a purchase. When they try to cash a check or use a credit card, they can assume they won't be hassled for additional identification and will be given the benefit of the doubt.
This all depends on their dress, whenever i go into a walmart late at night they say stuff like "Lucy send diane to turn all security cameras on"
-White representation in government and the ruling of circles of corporations, universities, and other organizations is disproportionately high.
its a shame but true
-Most whites are not segregated into communities that isolate them from the best job opportunities, schools, and community services
-Whites have greater access to quality educations and health care.
-Whites are more likely to be given early opportunities to show what they can do at work, to be identified as potential canidates for a promotion, to be mentored, to be given a second chance when they fail,. and to be allowed to treat failure as a learning experience rather than an indication of who they are and the shortcomings of their race.same point
-Whites can assume that race won't be used to predict whether they'll fit in at worm or whether teammates will feel comfortable working with them.
wrong. try joining a black church. sometimes people segregate themselves. Thats what happens with whites. it's not always forced.
-Whites can succeed without other people being surprised
what the **** is this youre ABSURD!
-Whites don't have to deal with an endless and exhausting stream of attention to their race. They can simply take their race for granted as unremarkable to the extent of experiencing themselves as not even having a race.
are you kidding me!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!? you make me sick. this is the most racist declaration of despicable and unfounded nonsense based on stereotypes of white people which in turn contradicts EVERYTHING YOUR SAYING ABOUT WHITE RACE BEING IGNORED JUST BY SAYING THIS. IM BEING REDUNDANT SO YOU'LL GET IT!

Privledge, Power, and difference, Allan G. Johnson, Ph. D. (27)

OH KEWL, NICE BOOK HOW LEGITIMATE
Need I continue?



It's not blaming, it's just the way it is. Our society is fashioned in a way that white=better, white=power, I have no control over that. It's institutionalized racism. You don't have to act out against people because of their race to be racist, you are inherently racist because you're white, and in America, white is power, white is privilege. The benefits you receive daily, unknowingly or knowingly, oppress people of color.

youre wrong, youre brainwashed by this disgusting book, talk about POPULAR DELUSIONS AND THE MADNESS OF CROWDS, you exemplify it.

I'm white, btw.

It's easy to deny you get privilege, because it's hard to see something that is a positive. If you talk to a minority they can tell you what privileges they don't get because it has a negative effect on their life.

No one is blaming, more or less, you're denying.
pathetic.
this is a popular delusion psuedo intellectual "well-read" and "tolerant" things have.

If you take away all the belligerent comments you made, you really added nothing significant to the thread in that post.

It seems silly to ask for someone to provide a bibliography to back up his arguments, when your own response is filled with nothing but vague hearsay.

[chronopops]

this is a popular delusion psuedo intellectual "well-read" and "tolerant" things have.

Are you ****ing stupid?

Did you miss where I cited it at the bottom? I didn't write this, a person with a doctorate in ****ing sociology did.

Any somehow your professional, MXer opinions refutes it simply because you don't AGREE?

If you're going to argue with published, respected materials written by people with credentials you'd best have more to say than, "LOL THAT'S ABSURD". You're brainwashed by the ****ing delusion that all people are born equal, and treated equal, regardless of their race.

[Danish]

What the hell...

[Jharaski]

How did southerners getting slaves to pick cotton and crack corn in the 1800s benefit me exactly?

I dunno, something like the economy was boosted, and you're around today to see what it did almost 200 years later? It's something someone pro-reparation would say, so it's not like it even has to make much sense.

[spitfirejunky]

Are you ****ing stupid?

Did you miss where I cited it at the bottom? I didn't write this, a person with a doctorate in ****ing sociology did.

Any somehow your professional, MXer opinions refutes it simply because you don't AGREE?

If you're going to argue with published, respected materials written by people with credentials you'd best have more to say than, "LOL THAT'S ABSURD". You're brainwashed by the ****ing delusion that all people are born equal, and treated equal, regardless of their race.

All of those points are hilariously trivial to the argument of equality.

[Jharaski]

It doesn't say that blacks don't make up the majority of the players in athletes in professional sports, read it again.

It comments on how they're held to a higher standard than the white players because here's expected to be good.

And no, genes don't have really anything to do with it.

They're expected to be good, because so many others are. Which logically, applies to the white boys as well. No team manager or whatnot is stupid enough to let racism get in the way of his team's performance, and in effect, possibly his paycheck or even job.

[chronopops]

All of those points are hilariously trivial to the argument of equality.

Uhm, not really. Dboon said, as a white male, he doesn't get privileges that people of color don't...I gave a list of many from a book written by a sociologist who deals with these things and speaks about them regularly....

:-\

All you people spew are personal attacks, I've not heard one counterargument or even an attempt at a counterargument.

[Jharaski]

Uhm, not really. Dboon said, as a white male, he doesn't get privileges that people of color don't...I gave a list of many from a book written by a sociologist who deals with these things and speaks about them regularly....

:-\

All you people spew are personal attacks, I've not heard one counterargument or even an attempt at a counterargument.

Well, I for one, don't know who the **** wrote that book. Never heard of him. And I know plenty of idiots with doctorates. They're my professors. The man wants to make a point, and simply grasped every tiny fiber that could connect his feelings to anything applicable. Unless I see HIS sources, I too, call bullshit on about 90% of what was posted.

[chronopops]

Well, I for one, don't know who the **** wrote that book. Never heard of him. And I know plenty of idiots with doctorates. They're my professors. The man wants to make a point, and simply grasped every tiny fiber that could connect his feelings to anything applicable. Unless I see HIS sources, I too, call bullshit on about 90% of what was posted.

Uhm, that's great. I listed the title of the book, the author and the page number. It's not my job to do your research. Educate yourself then form a counterargument.

I gave you the book, if you want to question the validity of the information in it I suggest you find the book, and check them, because as it stands you cannot refute the information.

This textbook is used by numerous professors in intro to multicultural studies classes...I'm sure it's utter bullshit, and is full of misinformation.

Really.

Get real, bro.

Edit: if you're belly aching I can write every resource listed in the god damn book, but I'm sure that's not satisfactory for you :)

[spitfirejunky]

Uhm, not really. Dboon said, as a white male, he doesn't get privileges that people of color don't...I gave a list of many from a book written by a sociologist who deals with these things and speaks about them regularly....

:-\

All you people spew are personal attacks, I've not heard one counterargument or even an attempt at a counterargument.

Choose a point from that list that you think best addresses a lack of equality, and I'll tell what's wrong with it.

[Iscariot]

If you weren't a slave, your parents weren't slaves, and your grandparents weren't slaves, you don't deserve reparations.

/my $0.02

[Hoyle00cdn]

Well, I for one, don't know who the **** wrote that book. Never heard of him. And I know plenty of idiots with doctorates. They're my professors. The man wants to make a point, and simply grasped every tiny fiber that could connect his feelings to anything applicable. Unless I see HIS sources, I too, call bullpoop on about 90% of what was posted.

Just because you've never heard of him, doesn't make him an idiot, or his work nonsense. I've never read this book either, but the argument he's making is a very Post-Modern argument that is accepted in many academic circles.

Carole Pateman - "The Sexual Contract"
Charles Taylor - "Politics of Recognition"
Charles Mills - "The Racial Contract"
Iris Marion Young - "Polity and Group Difference"

These are all highly accomplished political thinkers who argue very similar post-modern arguments. Their work is considered scholarly and widely accepted among the academic world, so if you want to give this subject more interest I highly recommend those reads. Even if you don't agree with the argument, that's ok, but you can't claim it to be bullpoop because your opinion says so. You're denying an entire academic circle of the credentials they have earned.

If you're interested in reading scholarly material that defends the liberal position, which is what most of you seem to be arguing, look up....

John Rawls - "A Theory of Justice"
John S. Mill - "On Liberty"

[chronopops]

Choose a point from that list that you think best addresses a lack of equality, and I'll tell what's wrong with it.

Of course you'll tell me what's wrong with it you're a white male who refuses to accept that he receives privilege for his position in the world. You can make an argument against anything you please, but it doesn't refute it.

Again, I'm inviting you to challenge my argument- any of those points listed are fair game.

[spitfirejunky]

Of course you'll tell me what's wrong with it you're a white male who refuses to accept that he receives privilege for his position in the world. You can make an argument against anything you please, but it doesn't refute it.

Again, I'm inviting you to challenge my argument- any of those points listed are fair game.

Reason I ask you to choose one is so that I don't have to address each and every single point. I'm not here to type papers.

And I'm about as white as Anwar Sadat.

[Hoyle00cdn]

Choose a point from that list that you think best addresses a lack of equality, and I'll tell what's wrong with it.

*The probability of a black child being born in the ghetto is much higher then the probability of a white child. This is a fact that liberalism can not address because it ignores history and strips all people of their unique identity of who they are.

[spitfirejunky]

*The probability of a black child being born in the ghetto is much higher then the probability of a white child. This is a fact that liberalism can not address because it ignores history and strips all people of their unique identity of who they are.

Textbook post hoc fallacy. 100% of the time I get cancer, water is transparent.

And the point completely neglects history.

[JohnXDoe]

racism, structured and otherwise, exist in this country and its effects can be extremely damaging. you don't need a degree or book to figure that out or see its still showing roots.

[Hoyle00cdn]

Textbook post hoc fallacy. 100% of the time I get cancer, water is transparent.

And the point completely neglects history.

Prove it...you cannot claim it to be fallacy and provide no argument. It seems like that's what everyone in here does when they read something they don't like.

[spitfirejunky]

Prove it...you cannot claim it to be fallacy and provide no argument. It seems like that's what everyone in here does when they read something they don't like.

I stated a specific fallacy, reread the post.

The fact that black people are more likely born impoverished, by itself, has no implications on the current status of equality. It could be due to the after-effects of slavery or any number of reasons that have no bearing on equality.

You need to show that there is a direct relationship between the lack of equality and this phenomenon.

[Smokey D]

Are you actually going to argue that plantation slavery and the society which has spawned it does not have long term effects of immiseration and poverty.

[spitfirejunky]

I'm arguing the opposite, so no?

[Smokey D]

The causal direction of this conversation is very stange. I'm confused.

Personally, I think class has more to do with that than race ever will.

What do you think slavery is?

[Hoyle00cdn]

I stated a specific fallacy, reread the post.

The fact that black people are more likely born impoverished, by itself, has no implications on the current status of equality. It could be due to the after-effects of slavery or any number of reasons that have no bearing on equality.

You need to show that there is a direct relationship between the lack of equality and this phenomenon.

I'm trying to highlight the distinct difference between de jure equality and de facto equality. The judicial system as liberalism understands it can only provide equal representation under the law, it has no baring on social behavior outside the law itself.

Example 1:
"In 1990, for example, two former employees of one of New York City's largest employment agencies divulged that discrimination was routinely practiced against blacks applications, though concealed behind a number of code words. Clients who did not want to hire blacks would indicate their preference for applicants who were 'All American'. For its part the agency would signal that an applicant was black by reversing the initials of the replacement counselor."
-Steinberg, Turning Back. p 152.

Example 2:
Throughout the history of U.S. capital punishment over one thousand people have been executed for murder, but very rarely is capital punishment dispensed when a white kills a black.

"According to the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund in New York, of the 380 people executed since the reinstatement of capital punishment, only 5 were whites convicted of killing blacks"
- Charles Mills, The Racial Contract, p 151-152.

Example 3:
The English philosopher John Locke is often credited as the father of the most fundamental concepts that make up American democracy. However the same man who claimed "All men are created equal", was also the same man who helped co-author the Carolin slave constitution; which makes one wonder....just who was Locke referring to when he said 'all men are created equal'?

The law treats white and nonwhites equally under the law, but social behavior continuously treats nonwhites as cognitively inferior, and therefore less important.

Example 4:
School curriculum continue to teach the discovery of the Americas as the "New World", as if Native Americans are still treated like they never had the cognitive capacity to legitimately claim their land.

The Holocaust seen the unfortunate deaths of 6 million European Jews (for argument sake we can considered Jews as white). European expansion and migration across the Americas seen the inhumane death of nearly 100 million natives through genocide, unbalanced warfare, and disease. While the Holocaust is treated with such sensitivity (which it rightfully should), the near extermination of native Americans is hardly given any sensitive attention at all.
- Charles Mills, The Racial Contract, p98.

There are more examples, but it's getting late and I'm tired of this. I hope this helps. I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right. All I'm trying to do is show you a different perspective or horizon for looking at this issue.

[spitfirejunky]

I'm trying to highlight the distinct difference between de jure equality and de facto equality. The judicial system as liberalism understands it can only provide equal representation under the law, it has no baring on social behavior outside the law itself.

This former is the only equality that's enforceable, unfortunately.

The law treats white and nonwhites equally under the law, but social behavior continuously treats nonwhites as cognitively inferior, and therefore less important.

The examples you have mentioned are not heavy enough to represent a systematic practice of inequality.

Example 1: I can list thousands of companies that do not practice discrimination.

Example 2: What span of US history are we dealing with? How many whites were convicted of killing blacks?

Example 3: No one is denying the US's history of inequality.

Example 4: The Armenian genocide as well as others are also under-taught. This is a problem of plain ignorance, not even racial inequality.

There are more examples, but it's getting late and I'm tired of this. I hope this helps. I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right. All I'm trying to do is show you a different perspective or horizon for looking at this issue.

I appreciate this.

[i am the robots]

The law treats white and nonwhites equally under the law, but social behavior continuously treats nonwhites as cognitively inferior, and therefore less important.

:lol:

there's such rampant racism EVERYWHERE

fact is, plenty of blacks look down on whites, plenty of hispanics look down on blacks AND whites, asians, etc. everybody thinks they're better than one another, it's human nature, but luckily things are so mixed these days that aside from some isolated cases, it's not really an issue.

[chronopops]

:lol:

there's such rampant racism EVERYWHERE

fact is, plenty of blacks look down on whites, plenty of hispanics look down on blacks AND whites, asians, etc. everybody thinks they're better than one another, it's human nature, but luckily things are so mixed these days that aside from some isolated cases, it's not really an issue.

Sure. But you have to understand what when a minority looks down upon the power (white) there is no consequence. You can't oppress the oppressor, the oppressor can only oppress you.

Just the same as minority-minority racism isn't really anything compared to white people being racist towards minorities. Why? Because minorities hold no power against each other, they're at the same level. And anything they do to bring the other down brings them all down as a group.

[Hoyle00cdn]

This former is the only equality that's enforceable, unfortunately.



The examples you have mentioned are not heavy enough to represent a systematic practice of inequality.

Example 1: I can list thousands of companies that do not practice discrimination.

Example 2: What span of US history are we dealing with? How many whites were convicted of killing blacks?

Example 3: No one is denying the US's history of inequality.

Example 4: The Armenian genocide as well as others are also under-taught. This is a problem of plain ignorance, not even racial inequality.



I appreciate this.
Ignorance is the problem I'm trying to highlight here. Post-moderns who argue this perspective are not trying to point the finger of blame at any particular group of people, that's not the point. The point is to acknowledge a social practice that remains disguised under the fabrics of society.

You're right, the legal system cannot fix most of the problems I pointed out, but that's not really the point here. In order to truly resolve racism and inequality you have to go beyond simply discussion of justice and explore racism on an epistemological level. What are the limitations to the ways we currently study racism.

Pointing the blame at American history is tedious, because the intricacies of racism goes far beyond that. Post-moderns argue that under the dense language of democracy/equality/justice in the world, there is this hidden categorization of person and sub-person. All races and genders are treated as equal human beings (freedom from), but only certain races are seen as being endowed with the cognitive capacity to be great (freedom to). In order to fully grasp the scope of this argument one must first be willing to accept that these categorizations are not deliberate, but subconscious influences that affect social behavior. These influences convey certain messages into the fabrics of society that most are completely unaware of.....

- No race should ever be persecuted or harmed, but only certain races have the capability to be smart.
- If a subperson shows signs of brilliance, they are simply an anomoly from the norm and worthy of praise and patronizing.
- The value of human life is universal, but the quality of cognition is not.

Most people would outright deny that these messages have any influence on their lives, but that is precisely what makes these subconscious categorizations so affective. They're most effective when people don't even notice they are there.

*In the movie Apocalypse Now, the more Martin Sheen travels into Cambodia the more irrational and barbaric he becomes, as if the Asian cultures of Cambodia were primal and savage.

*The song "Devil went down to Georgia" has a striking comparison to "Cross Roade Blues". Both songs entail a pop culture story about an interaction between a musician and the devil. However there is also a striking difference between the two songs. Robert Johnson (black) must sell his soul to the devil before he is endowed with the gift of musicianship, but little Johnny (white) is already seen as being endowed with the gift of musicianship and even outwits the devil himself.

I got the flu right now so I'm going to leave thread for now.

Some of the greatest political thinkers of the western world (Hobbes ENG, Locke ENG, Rousseau FRN, Kant GER, Rawls USA) have all been shown to have possible

[Illmatic]

*In the movie Apocalypse Now, the more Martin Sheen travels into Cambodia the more irrational and barbaric he becomes, as if the Asian cultures of Cambodia were primal and savage.

this has everything to do with the fact that his character is an Asia and nothing to do with the fact that his character is fighting in the Vietnam War

*The song "Devil went down to Georgia" has a striking comparison to "Cross Roade Blues". Both songs entail a pop culture story about an interaction between a musician and the devil. However there is also a striking difference between the two songs. Robert Johnson (black) must sell his soul to the devil before he is endowed with the gift of musicianship, but little Johnny (white) is already seen as being endowed with the gift of musicianship and even outwits the devil himself.

Robert Johnson wrote the song though. what the hell does this have to do with anything?

I hate it when these kind of discussions come up. you always get worthless academic opinions and bleeding heart college kid rhetoric.

[Hoyle00cdn]

this has everything to do with the fact that his character is an Asia and nothing to do with the fact that his character is fighting in the Vietnam War
I don't understand what you're getting at here?

Robert Johnson wrote the song though. what the hell does this have to do with anything?
It suggests that the subconscious influence of these messages affect both whites and nonwhites. It instills a superiority complex in whites and an inferiority complex among nonwhites (at least that's how the argument goes). For example, when a black man says "I can't succeed in this world because I'm black".

I hate it when these kind of discussions come up. you always get worthless academic opinions and bleeding heart college kid rhetoric.
Please don't insult my degree or education. Like I said, I'm not advocating the post-modern argument on race to be gospel, I'm simply stating the position they take. If you'd like to discuss the accuracy of this argument then I'd gladly engage in a debate about it, but simply claiming everything I said to be nonsense without actually taking the time to understand it is a form of ignorance.

[r1mbaud]

If you take away all the belligerent comments you made, you really added nothing significant to the thread in that post.

It seems silly to ask for someone to provide a bibliography to back up his arguments, when your own response is filled with nothing but vague hearsay.
I'm stating no facts in declaring HIS arguement hearsay! so how can i be using "hearsay", when im adding no claims of factual information, more just my opinion on his attempt at creating "facts", or using created "facts"

Are you ****ing stupid?

Did you miss where I cited it at the bottom? I didn't write this, a person with a doctorate in ****ing sociology did.

Any somehow your professional, MXer opinions refutes it simply because you don't AGREE?

If you're going to argue with published, respected materials written by people with credentials you'd best have more to say than, "LOL THAT'S ABSURD". You're brainwashed by the ****ing delusion that all people are born equal, and treated equal, regardless of their race.
just because he was taught doesnt mean he can teach and he has no way of gathering 3/4ths of this information. What he's saying is just a huge generalization about how some white people treat a lot of black people, for money. Because white people who want to be down with this current black struggle and black people who use their race as an excuse for them to not do as well. granted there are anomalies, but they are certainly not as common as your media is portraying it as.

Uhm, that's great. I listed the title of the book, the author and the page number. It's not my job to do your research. Educate yourself then form a counterargument.

I gave you the book, if you want to question the validity of the information in it I suggest you find the book, and check them, because as it stands you cannot refute the information.

This textbook is used by numerous professors in intro to multicultural studies classes...I'm sure it's utter bullpoop, and is full of misinformation.

Really.

Get real, bro.

Edit: if you're belly aching I can write every resource listed in the god damn book, but I'm sure that's not satisfactory for you :)
ok, BRO, you source it all you want, it doesn't matter because unless you have a written testimony from some real census worker or legitimately non obscure sociologist with how his experiment was gone about, and of EXACTLY the percentage out of EVERYONE WHO DOES ILLEGAL DRUGS IN AMERICA, are white? All of the other " FACTS " are equally and unequivocally silly. You're just sourcing some guys opinion who has happened to go to college before me, it doesn't make him NOT stupid?! You ignore any questioning of your so called facts, and claim US to be ad hominem in our approach, but by questioning the very essence of our rebuttals, you are the ad hominem one.


*In the movie Apocalypse Now, the more Martin Sheen travels into Cambodia the more irrational and barbaric he becomes, as if the Asian cultures of Cambodia were primal and savage.
jungle+killing=primal and savage...
*The song "Devil went down to Georgia" has a striking comparison to "Cross Roade Blues". Both songs entail a pop culture story about an interaction between a musician and the devil. However there is also a striking difference between the two songs. Robert Johnson (black) must sell his soul to the devil before he is endowed with the gift of musicianship, but little Johnny (white) is already seen as being endowed with the gift of musicianship and even outwits the devil himself.

thats just how they wrote it,
just as
http://www.allthelyrics.com/lyrics/apache/kill_dwhite_people-lyrics-614302.html
that guy wrote that(black)
http://www.musicmademe.com/show_sng.php?d=59780
that guy wrote that (white)

[chronopops]

I can't play fast enough to intelligently improvise over that.
The information isn't in question. It's written by someone with a PhD in a sociology, and numerous references to every statistic listed.

If you want to argue against it you need more than "lol, that's stupid" "that wrong" to refute what I've presented.

[VomitStainedCretin]

*In the movie Apocalypse Now, the more Martin Sheen travels into Cambodia the more irrational and barbaric he becomes, as if the Asian cultures of Cambodia were primal and savage.Apocalypse Now is largely derived from Joseph Conrad's 'Heart of Darkness', much of which contains elements of Conrad's disgust at the inhuman treatment by Belgium under King Leopold of the Congolese. The journey upriver and into the jungle are a metaphor for a journey into the primal, violent ugliness that lies at the proverbial 'heart of darkness' that is the foundation of human nature. If anything 'Heart of Darkness' and Apocalypse Now deliberately present the colonial powers as being ignorant, misinterpreting and more savage and uncivilised than those they so label.

[Illmatic]

It suggests that the subconscious influence of these messages affect both whites and nonwhites. It instills a superiority complex in whites and an inferiority complex among nonwhites (at least that's how the argument goes). For example, when a black man says "I can't succeed in this world because I'm black".

yeah its an inferiority complex that is manifested in all the rappers who talk about how great they are

Please don't insult my degree or education. Like I said, I'm not advocating the post-modern argument on race to be gospel, I'm simply stating the position they take. If you'd like to discuss the accuracy of this argument then I'd gladly engage in a debate about it, but simply claiming everything I said to be nonsense without actually taking the time to understand it is a form of ignorance.

I'm not saying they didn't work hard, that they're quacks, or even that any of it is wrong. I find that for the most part the work of academics only benefits other academics. it's great for academic purposes but doesn't really help anyone else out.

[Hoyle00cdn]

Apocalypse Now is largely derived from Joseph Conrad's 'Heart of Darkness', much of which contains elements of Conrad's disgust at the inhuman treatment by Belgium under King Leopold of the Congolese. The journey upriver and into the jungle are a metaphor for a journey into the primal, violent ugliness that lies at the proverbial 'heart of darkness' that is the foundation of human nature. If anything 'Heart of Darkness' and Apocalypse Now deliberately present the colonial powers as being ignorant, misinterpreting and more savage and uncivilised than those they so label.

Hmm interesting, but it's not just Martin sheen's character that inquires about racial overtones, but Marlon Brandow's character as well. Is it just a coincidence that Brandow's character, the only "civilized" man in the tribe, becomes their leader and center of rationality for all the native savages he is among?

This does not imply that Joseph Conrad is a racist, that would be completely missing the point. The point here, is to identify what could be an epistemological blindness to racial stereotyping that all people fail to see. Whenever white literature makes reference to savages, whether it be literal or metaphorical, nonwhite races are most commonly used as the example. This is found in both academic literature (like Thomas Hobbes' account of the state of nature) and pop western culture.

You could argue that this is reading too much into the definition of "savage" and that this is merely a coincidence, but the history of warfare has shown that the lives of those races who are commonly used as examples of savages, are also undervalued.

*The crossbow was originally outlawed by the Roman Catholic church, except for use against non Europeans.
*The machine gun was first used in Africa and considered to be inhumane to use on fellow Europeans. (Prior to WWI)
*Racial genocide was practiced long before the WWII, but the Holocaust was the first time Genocide was committed by Europeans on fellow Europeans.
*The Atomic bomb was approach as a decision of great caution when referring to Germany, but approached as a decision of efficiency when referring to Japan.

[Hoyle00cdn]

yeah its an inferiority complex that is manifested in all the rappers who talk about how great they are.
Many people argue that most rap is just another form of black-face minstrelsy.

so you be the judge.

[Hababi]

this has everything to do with the fact that his character is an Asia and nothing to do with the fact that his character is fighting in the Vietnam War


Also the fact that it was Heart of Darkness transplanted to a different era.

[Hoyle00cdn]

thats just how they wrote it,
just as
http://www.allthelyrics.com/lyrics/apache/kill_dwhite_people-lyrics-614302.html
that guy wrote that(black)
http://www.musicmademe.com/show_sng.php?d=59780
that guy wrote that (white)
these examples don't apply. You're referencing blatant racist literature. I wasn't accusing Charlie Daniel's Band or Robert Johnson of being racist.

[r1mbaud]

The information isn't in question. It's written by someone with a PhD in a sociology, and numerous references to every statistic listed.

If you want to argue against it you need more than "lol, that's stupid" "that wrong" to refute what I've presented.

okay give me the references to the statistic and how the experiment was preformed, about how you got the truthful percentage of all people who use illegal drugs and their race. You just ignore what im saying because youre so caught up in this so called race war.

these examples don't apply. You're referencing blatant racist literature. I wasn't accusing Charlie Daniel's Band or Robert Johnson of being racist.
then what? inherent superiority? you mean, to the devil right.

[chronopops]

okay give me the references to the statistic and how the experiment was preformed, about how you got the truthful percentage of all people who use illegal drugs and their race. You just ignore what im saying because youre so caught up in this so called race war.
I don't know which references correlate to the statistics, but I'll write out every single one if you want.

I'm ignoring what you're saying because you'd making grandiose claims with absolutely no backing, and claim that they refute my argument.

I don't need to understand how a statistic was obtained in order to present it.

[Hoyle00cdn]

then what? inherent superiority? you mean, to the devil right.

Try to think of the superiority/inferiority complex as a psychological form of racism and not necessarily a deliberate form.

Ummm, I can't really think of another way of putting it. Post moderns tend to attack Racism, the same way Nietzsche attacked Morality. It has a lot to do with expanding your intellectual horizons and point of reference. Epistemology tends to become a cliche word thrown around in these sorts of discussions.

[r1mbaud]

Try to think of the superiority/inferiority complex as a psychological form of racism and not necessarily a deliberate form.

Ummm, I can't really think of another way of putting it. Post moderns tend to attack Racism, the same way Nietzsche attacked Morality. It has a lot to do with expanding your intellectual horizons and point of reference. Epistemology tends to become a cliche word thrown around in these sorts of discussions.

i understand the complex, im just saying you cant say that charlie daniels heard that song and was like ill rewrite it, except this time ill beat the devil at his own game. Then to call that inherent subconcious superiority...

[McP3000]

The last 4 pages are quite laughable

i hate bleeding hearts...i really do

[Jharaski]

Uhm, that's great. I listed the title of the book, the author and the page number. It's not my job to do your research. Educate yourself then form a counterargument.
Totally irrelevant. Just because some shmuck with a PhD said it doesn't make it true. Why do so many people with doctorates in economics disagree about what to do with the economy?


I gave you the book, if you want to question the validity of the information in it I suggest you find the book, and check them, because as it stands you cannot refute the information.

This "information" is biased when written by a single person. Information can be tweaked into any new information you want.


This textbook is used by numerous professors in intro to multicultural studies classes...I'm sure it's utter bullpoop, and is full of misinformation.

Really.

Get real, bro.


So is the Communist Manifesto.


Edit: if you're belly aching I can write every resource listed in the god damn book, but I'm sure that's not satisfactory for you :)

Knock yourself out, but some of those things are pretty ****ing hard to claim.

[Jharaski]

Just because you've never heard of him, doesn't make him an idiot, or his work nonsense. I've never read this book either, but the argument he's making is a very Post-Modern argument that is accepted in many academic circles.

Carole Pateman - "The Sexual Contract"
Charles Taylor - "Politics of Recognition"
Charles Mills - "The Racial Contract"
Iris Marion Young - "Polity and Group Difference"

These are all highly accomplished political thinkers who argue very similar post-modern arguments. Their work is considered scholarly and widely accepted among the academic world, so if you want to give this subject more interest I highly recommend those reads. Even if you don't agree with the argument, that's ok, but you can't claim it to be bullpoop because your opinion says so. You're denying an entire academic circle of the credentials they have earned.

If you're interested in reading scholarly material that defends the liberal position, which is what most of you seem to be arguing, look up....

John Rawls - "A Theory of Justice"
John S. Mill - "On Liberty"

No, just the specific points. Just because I don't think blacks are at a disadvantage to being on sports team doesn't mean I think the entire academic circle is wrong.

[pedro durruti]

So is the Communist Manifesto.
Because even if it is partially a work of propaganda (it was more political than scientific), it still serves as an important work in sociological thought.

[Jharaski]

Because even if it is partially a work of propaganda (it was more political than scientific), it still serves as an important work in sociological thought.

And so does that other book. Even if 100% of a book is wrong, it could belong in a class to show what OTHERS think.

[pedro durruti]

Qualified others who are more knowledgeable than most..

[Smokey D]

Goddammit when did appeals to authority become good arguments? X thinks Y, therefore you should believe Y is not proving anything.

And trying to sue society for being racist is patently absurd and should not be confused with the issue of slavery reparations.

[pedro durruti]

Goddammit when did appeals to authority become good arguments? X thinks Y, therefore you should believe Y is not proving anything.
I don't know, are you talking to me? I don't understand the last sentence.

[Smokey D]

I'm talking to anyone who cites academia without actually giving insight into their argument.

The last sentence is saying that 'If John Raws believes in liberalism, then you should believe in liberalism' is not a good reason for me to actually believe liberalism. So people should stop saying 'well, academics have said it'. Academics have said a lot of things, and often they're arguing with one another, so it doesn't actually mean a lot.

[chronopops]

Totally irrelevant. Just because some shmuck with a PhD said it doesn't make it true. Why do so many people with doctorates in economics disagree about what to do with the economy?
The shmuck with the PhD has more credentials and knowledge then you, therefore; what he says holds more water.

And what does economics have to do with sociology? Oh right, nothing.

This "information" is biased when written by a single person. Information can be tweaked into any new information you want.

Please explain how the information is misleading.

So is the Communist Manifesto.
I'm sure you know this reply is not only illogical, but stupid. So I don't know you posted it.

Knock yourself out, but some of those things are pretty ****ing hard to claim
Is that a yes or a no?

[chronopops]

No, just the specific points. Just because I don't think blacks are at a disadvantage to being on sports team doesn't mean I think the entire academic circle is wrong.

Refuting one point isn't refuting white privilege. :'(

But you haven't even done that...

[Jharaski]

The shmuck with the PhD has more credentials and knowledge then you, therefore; what he says holds more water.

And what does economics have to do with sociology? Oh right, nothing.

Opinions.

There are many people with economics degrees that disagree with each other. Therefor, some of them are wrong, even though they have a doctorate.


Please explain how the information is misleading.

Couldn't tell you anything specific, but I know for a fact that a lot of it is exaggerated, as is almost anything by someone trying to make a point.


I'm sure you know this reply is not only illogical, but stupid. So I don't know you posted it.

To show that just because it's used in a classroom doesn't mean it's right?


Is that a yes or a no?

It's a "good luck proving any of it and I'll be astounded if you do."


Refuting one point isn't refuting white privilege. :'(

But you haven't even done that...

I was just saying that just because I disagree with the specific points, it doesn't mean I disagree with white privilege. Sure it exists. But so does minority privilege. Why can't I quality for a grant, when my mom makes 18,000 dollars a year and I have a 3.2 GPA, but my Mexican friend whose family rakes in six figures and has a 2.0 can?

[RockAndRoll]

Sure. But you have to understand what when a minority looks down upon the power (white) there is no consequence. You can't oppress the oppressor, the oppressor can only oppress you.

Just the same as minority-minority racism isn't really anything compared to white people being racist towards minorities. Why? Because minorities hold no power against each other, they're at the same level. And anything they do to bring the other down brings them all down as a group.

Except that whites, blacks, hispanics asians.... whatever are not monolithic entities. They're not monolithic entities and they're not "all at the same level". There are no white people meetings or black people meetings where they all get together and decide upon a strategy for bringing down the hispanics. Racism causes problems regardless of which group the perpetrator is a part of. Just as a woman who discriminates against other women is problematic.

[pedro durruti]

I'm talking to anyone who cites academia without actually giving insight into their argument.

The last sentence is saying that 'If John Raws believes in liberalism, then you should believe in liberalism' is not a good reason for me to actually believe liberalism. So people should stop saying 'well, academics have said it'. Academics have said a lot of things, and often they're arguing with one another, so it doesn't actually mean a lot.
Word

[Hababi]

:confused: Wait everyone's bothering to talk about some 'authority' who apparently didn't even know that Apocalypse Now was a retelling of Heart of Darkness?

I don't even get what everyone is debating but whatever.

[chronopops]

There are many people with economics degrees that disagree with each other. Therefor, some of them are wrong, even though they have a doctorate.
Ok, that's well and good, but economics=/=sociology.

Couldn't tell you anything specific, but I know for a fact that a lot of it is exaggerated, as is almost anything by someone trying to make a point.
Ok, you're entitled to that, but are you suggesting white privilege does not exist?

To show that just because it's used in a classroom doesn't mean it's right?
Except you're comparing apples and oranges....

It's a "good luck proving any of it and I'll be astounded if you do."
Again, is that a yes or no? I'm not going to waste my time typing the references out if you don't actually want to research them.

I was just saying that just because I disagree with the specific points, it doesn't mean I disagree with white privilege. Sure it exists. But so does minority privilege. Why can't I quality for a grant, when my mom makes 18,000 dollars a year and I have a 3.2 GPA, but my Mexican friend whose family rakes in six figures and has a 2.0 can?
Minority privilege can't exist because they're minorities. They are denied privilege, they are oppressed.

Quotas like that are meant to level the playing field between the dominant culture and the minority cultures, and in no way do they signify oppression to whites. Whites cannot be oppressed as whites because they are the oppressors, and there is nobody in our society with more power than them, thus they cannot be oppressed- it's a balance of power.

"To be white in America means not having to think about it."

Affirmative action, and what not, are an attempt to remedy the past by giving opportunities to minorities, who as a group, have had less privilege in pursuing a good education, and jobs since the beginning of this country. It's an attempt to try and equalize the power, but it's commonly countered with the "Woe is me" oppressed white man argument, which I already explained, makes no sense.

Except that whites, blacks, hispanics asians.... whatever are not monolithic entities. That's the problem they're not monolithic entities they're not "all at the same level". There are no white people meetings or black people meetings where they all get together and decide upon a strategy for bringing down the hispanics. Racism causes problems regardless of which group the perpetrator is a part of. Just as a woman who discriminate against other women is problematic.
I didn't say it wasn't a problem I simply put it in perspective. White racism is MUCH MORE impactful, and damaging than racism between POC's.

[RockAndRoll]

I didn't say it wasn't a problem I simply put it in perspective. White racism is MUCH MORE impactful, and damaging than racism between POC's.

But it's simply a misleading way of putting it. There are more whites in America so if 60% of whites in america are racist aginst blacks then that is numerically a bigger problem than if 60% of some minority being racist. However if 60% of the overall populations is racist against some group it doesn't really matter what ethnicity that 60% is. It's misleading to apply terms like white racism.

[chronopops]

But it's simply a misleading way of putting it. There are more whites in America so if 60% of whites in america are racist aginst blacks then that is numerically a bigger problem than if 60% of some minority being racist. However if 60% of the overall populations is racist against some group it doesn't really matter what ethnicity that 60% is. It's misleading to apply terms like white racism.

It doesn't have to do with numbers, it has to do with power.

The consequence of privilege to one group is the oppression of another. Whites are slowly becoming a "minority" (notice the quotations) in the sense that there are fewer, in relation to the other ethnicities in America, however, they are still the dominant group, regardless of size.

Who runs this country? Who runs all the big businesses? Who has control? Almost exclusively whites...

[RockAndRoll]

It doesn't have to do with numbers, it has to do with power.

The consequence of privilege to one group is the oppression of another. Whites are slowly becoming a "minority" (notice the quotations) in the sense that there are fewer, in relation to the other ethnicities in America, however, they are still the dominant group, regardless of size.

Who runs this country? Who runs all the big businesses? Who has control? Almost exclusively whites...

But now you're just confusing the issue by treating these groups as monolithic entities again. The is not some confederation of white people who are all in power opressing other groups. If the problem is people in power being racist then the problem is people in power being racist, not white people being racist. It's useless to confuse the issue by treating those things as the same. Besides opressed people acting in opressive ways towards other opressed people is a problem as well.

[McP3000]

It doesn't have to do with numbers, it has to do with power.

The consequence of privilege to one group is the oppression of another. Whites are slowly becoming a "minority" (notice the quotations) in the sense that there are fewer, in relation to the other ethnicities in America, however, they are still the dominant group, regardless of size.

Who runs this country? Who runs all the big businesses? Who has control? Almost exclusively whites...
Hahaha, you sound EXACTLY like this jew conspiracy theorist at my school

[chronopops]

But now you're just confusing the issue by treating these groups as monolithic entities again. The is not some confederation of white people who are all in power opressing other groups. If the problem is people in power being racist then the problem is people in power being racist, not white people being racist. It's useless to confuse the issue by treating those things as the same. Besides opressed people acting in opressive ways towards other opressed people is a problem as well.

I think you're sort of missing the point.

I am not saying all white people, or the white people in power, are necessarily racist on a conscious level. The idea of privilege doesn't have to do with people actively oppressing POCs, or recognizing that they have privilege, it is simply the way in which our society is, and has always been.

The biggest issue here, from what I can tell, is a misunderstanding of the word "racist".

[chronopops]

Hahaha, you sound EXACTLY like this jew conspiracy theorist at my school

Do you have anything constructive to add to this discussion or are you just popping your head in the door for comedic effect?

[McP3000]

Do you have anything constructive to add to this discussion or are you just popping your head in the door for comedic effect?
No
im relating you to a jewish conspiracy theorist

which means youre wrong

[chronopops]

No
im relating you to a jewish conspiracy theorist

which means youre wrong

So basically.. you have no counterargument, you're just trolling?

Thought so.

[RockAndRoll]

I think you're sort of missing the point.

I am not saying all white people, or the white people in power, are necessarily racist on a conscious level. The idea of privilege doesn't have to do with people actively oppressing POCs, or recognizing that they have privilege, it is simply the way in which our society is, and has always been.

The biggest issue here, from what I can tell, is a misunderstanding of the word "racist".

No, I think the problem is that there's no such thing as "white racism" but you continue to refer to it as if there is.

But furthermore I think your point about the way our society "is and always has been" is once again wrong. There is still racism in society, but it's not at all of the same nature that it was 200 years ago.

[McP3000]

So basically.. you have no counterargument, you're just trolling?

Thought so.
If i was a white conspiracy theorist, i would also be a troll

so by that logic YOURE THE TROLL

[chronopops]

Of course you don't think there's white racism you're white.

I'm pretty much done with this topic so don't bother replying to this. You can, but you won't get a response.

It's hard to argue with people who aren't open minded enough to even understand the opposing argument, but it's another thing to be continually insulted for not having a popular opinion.

Anyway, enjoy.

[chronopops]

If i was a white conspiracy theorist, i would also be a troll

so by that logic YOURE THE TROLL

Mmm....no you're a troll because you add nothing to the conversation you simply pop in to drop ad hominem bombs and make obscene comparisons.

I'm engaging in a discussion, and respecting the opposition. I am not a troll by any measure.

Good night.

[RockAndRoll]

Of course you don't think there's white racism you're white.

I'm pretty much done with this topic so don't bother replying to this. You can, but you won't get a response.

It's hard to argue with people who aren't open minded enough to even understand the opposing argument, but it's another thing to be continually insulted for not having a popular opinion.

Anyway, enjoy.

I'm not saying white people aren't racist or that there isn't such a thing as institutionalized racism. And I don't remember ever insulting you.

However if you've bowed out of the discussion then.... well that's that I guess.

But if by chance you do return to this discussion....

then I just have a quick question for you: I'm white?

[McP3000]

Mmm....no you're a troll because you add nothing to the conversation you simply pop in to drop ad hominem bombs and make obscene comparisons.

I'm engaging in a discussion, and respecting the opposition. I am not a troll by any measure.

Good night.
Victory at last

now our KKK meeting can resume

[Jharaski]

Ok, that's well and good, but economics=/=sociology.

Ok but you're the one who says the doctorate = authoritative opinion. Does that only apply to sociology? I was just refuting that a doctorate doesn't make your opinion fact.


Ok, you're entitled to that, but are you suggesting white privilege does not exist?

Not at all, but it's not as HUGE as it's made out to be. There are other factors.


Except you're comparing apples and oranges....

No I'm comparing "it's used in the classroom so it must be right" to "this is also used in the classroom." It's a perfect analogy. It just shows that a book being used in a classroom doesn't make it entirely valid. Do classes actually teach what's in there as fact? Can you prove that? No, just like I can't prove my belief that it's used to show varying opinions, as well as advised to take with a grain of salt.


Again, is that a yes or no? I'm not going to waste my time typing the references out if you don't actually want to research them.

Don't bother, honestly. It's not that I don't believe white privilege exists, but the individual claims are ridiculous and not provable. They're there to make a point, and a very valid one at that. But it's like saying "Hitler was an evil man because he raped babies." The big picture is certainly true, but the supporting evidence is off. I in no way refute the studies about blacks being passed over for employment. That is an easy thing to prove and I am satisfied with the example posted.


Minority privilege can't exist because they're minorities. They are denied privilege, they are oppressed.

Quotas like that are meant to level the playing field between the dominant culture and the minority cultures, and in no way do they signify oppression to whites. Whites cannot be oppressed as whites because they are the oppressors, and there is nobody in our society with more power than them, thus they cannot be oppressed- it's a balance of power.

But in the process of leveling the field, I am... well not oppressed, but passed over, based on being white. Grants are supposed to go to low income and/or high GPA students. I am both, and it went to someone who was neither because she's Mexican, and didn't deserve a penny of it.


"To be white in America means not having to think about it."

Affirmative action, and what not, are an attempt to remedy the past by giving opportunities to minorities, who as a group, have had less privilege in pursuing a good education, and jobs since the beginning of this country. It's an attempt to try and equalize the power, but it's commonly countered with the "Woe is me" oppressed white man argument, which I already explained, makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense if qualified whites are passed over just to fill quotas. The system is all fubar, but that's a separate topic really.


I didn't say it wasn't a problem I simply put it in perspective. White racism is MUCH MORE impactful, and damaging than racism between POC's.

I never said this wasn't true, don't get me wrong. I agree with this.


edit to fix quote boxes

[Hoyle00cdn]

i understand the complex, im just saying you cant say that charlie daniels heard that song and was like ill rewrite it, except this time ill beat the devil at his own game. Then to call that inherent subconcious superiority...

If you that's what you think I was trying to say about Charlie Daniel's Band, then, no, you still don't understand the complexity of what I was trying to say.

[Hoyle00cdn]

At the beginning of the 20th century "race mattered", but unfortunately it mattered in the most negative way. The color of one's skin and gender of one's sex played an influential role in what privileges you had or did not have in society. Voting, job opportunity, power, wealth, etc were all dependent on your group particularities (race, gender, religion, age, etc). This train of thought didn't just dominate social practice, but the academic world as well. There was extensive work and research being done on the significance of race. Unfortunately the objective of this research was to establish scientific proof of racial hierarchy, which ultimately lead Fascist/Nazi doctrine.

The Second World War had shown mankind just how ugly racial politics can become, but what many people fail to accept even today is that there is a difference between racial politics of segregation and racial politics of recognition. The Aftermath of the Holocaust and WWII prompted the abandonment of racial politics throughout the western world, and gave rise to the institutional embracing of liberalism. Racial segregation and WWII had tarnished the image of racial politics so bad that the mere idea of talking about the importance of race was seen as Nazi ideology and completely shunned upon.

Instead, liberalism promoted a universal approach to human rights, and rightfully so. While racial politics focused on one's group particularities, liberalism did the opposite. Liberalism strips individuals of their group particularities and defines laws independent of race, gender, religion, age, etc. The end result has been a doctrine full of Universal rights that can be used to protect the life and integrity of all people, something racial politics failed to do for so long.

However, stripping individual's of their group particularities does not address the politics of recognition. When you strip individuals of their group particularities you also ignore any concerns that are unique to the group.

*Legislation concerning breast cancer research is much more alarming and necessary for women then it is for the overwhelming majority of politicians in Congress who are men.
*The right to an education continues to threaten the survival and integrity of Amish communities across North America.
*Schools with a high concentration of immigrant students may require different approaches to providing an education that help bridge various cultural and/or language barriers.
*Certain minorities may need the workforce to accommodate for their unique religious practices.

These are just a few concerns that are unique to the group. Liberalism only addresses the concerns of all human beings, while ignoring the private concerns that are unique to various groups. To make matters more complicated, liberalism itself has become a form of racial oppression despite all the good it has done. Whenever people try to talk about politics of racial recognition they are often labeled racist, anti-democratic, bleeding heart, leftist-extremist, because racial politics has been so badly tarnished by the negative affects of racial segregation.

It is much easier to ignore the unique concerns of groups because the language of liberal-rights allows one to do so.
-Why should I support affirmative action? I believe all people are equal.
-Why should I support the idea of consociational states? I believe all people are equal.
-Why should I support slavery reparations for something that happened more than a 100 years ago? Everyone born today is treated equal.

The argument can be made that equal rights do not necessarily translate over into equal recognition. Today race still matters, but it matters in a positive manner. Liberalism fails to provide proper equal recognition of groups. If it did, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Anyways, I've made my piece here so cheers and support whatever point of view you like more.

[VomitStainedCretin]

Hahaha, you sound EXACTLY like this jew conspiracy theorist at my schoolYes, of course if x thinks Y and also Z, which is acknowledged to be bad, therefore Y is bad... :rolleyes:

[Smokey D]

Race still matters, and people still treat people of other ethnicities like ****. But 'white racism' is a misnomer. Historically, whites can and often have been incredibly racist to other whites (noticeably, Aryans versus Jews, but also against Irish, Italians, Poles, Russians, Spanish, Hispanics etc). The racism of the most dominant group (however it defines itself) is always the most dangerous (in potentia), but not always the most virulent or the most harmful. And there is no essential quality to 'whiteness' or 'white racism to compare against minorities and to avoid that issue is a complete cop out.

[spitfirejunky]

The information isn't in question. It's written by someone with a PhD in a sociology, and numerous references to every statistic listed.

No you see, you've failed to connect those points to a practice of inequality.

[spitfirejunky]

then I just have a quick question for you: I'm white?

You know it's funny, I'm white too.

I'm gonna go tell my friends and see how convinced they'll be.

[i am the robots]

Sure. But you have to understand what when a minority looks down upon the power (white) there is no consequence. You can't oppress the oppressor, the oppressor can only oppress you.
There's so many issues of white on black racism!

Just the same as minority-minority racism isn't really anything compared to white people being racist towards minorities. Why? Because minorities hold no power against each other, they're at the same level. And anything they do to bring the other down brings them all down as a group.
Stop looking for problems that aren't there.

[guitrguy]

Stop looking for problems that aren't there.

I do believe he was stating how its not much of a "problem".

[lfantwister]

Just the same as minority-minority racism isn't really anything compared to white people being racist towards minorities.
you seem to be forgetting about the much more harmful and prevalent forms of minority-minority rivalry: gangs

[YDload]

so i see this thread right next to the one about a new tax rebate, and it appears that the government is fine with giving away money but they want to make sure white people get it too. so the black people have their reparations but they wont be able to enjoy it cause everyone else is getting they $300-$600 too

[i am the robots]

I do believe he was stating how its not much of a "problem".

I do believe I said that to minority-minority racism, I was trying to be retarded but I guess a spic wouldn't know the difference. :p

[guitrguy]

I do believe I said that to minority-minority racism, I was trying to be retarded but I guess a spic wouldn't know the difference. :p
I'll shank you.

[i am the robots]

nigga i suck you dick

[GreyHam]

the way i see it, part of equality is, funnily enough, treating people equally, and not giving preferential treatment to any one race, belief, or sexuality

im probably naive, but id like to think were past the stage where people are rejected from employment due to any of the above, in which case continuing a tradition where people are treated differently (even positively) is detrimental to peace and love y'all

[McP3000]

the way i see it, part of equality is, funnily enough, treating people equally, and not giving preferential treatment to any one race, belief, or sexuality

im probably naive, but id like to think were past the stage where people are rejected from employment due to any of the above, in which case continuing a tradition where people are treated differently (even positively) is detrimental to peace and love y'all
hi5

true equality means that you all piss me off regardless of your race

[Gizmo69]

I think its horrible how slaves were treated.. However i dont feel we need to apologise of compensate people as that was a past generation and not us. ive done nothing to knowone so i dont want anyone apolgising on my behalf..

most people look back as mistakes throughout history and learn from them, rather than dwell and demand compensation.

[RockAndRoll]

Race still matters, and people still treat people of other ethnicities like ****. But 'white racism' is a misnomer. Historically, whites can and often have been incredibly racist to other whites (noticeably, Aryans versus Jews, but also against Irish, Italians, Poles, Russians, Spanish, Hispanics etc). The racism of the most dominant group (however it defines itself) is always the most dangerous (in potentia), but not always the most virulent or the most harmful. And there is no essential quality to 'whiteness' or 'white racism to compare against minorities and to avoid that issue is a complete cop out.

Thank you, that's what I was trying to get across.

[McP3000]

I think its horrible how slaves were treated.. However i dont feel we need to apologise of compensate people as that was a past generation and not us. ive done nothing to knowone so i dont want anyone apolgising on my behalf..

most people look back as mistakes throughout history and learn from them, rather than dwell and demand compensation.
I agree.

It seems like its just lazy black people trying to get a free hand out instead of respecting what horrible times their relatives went through.

[The Mickey Finn Special]

you got somethin to say about white people?

say it to my face

[Sleep]

im probably naive, but id like to think were past the stage where people are rejected from employment due to any of the above

you are naive. why else would it be such a huge deal that barack obama may become the next president? and there have been numerous studies done in a variety of places where dummy resumes with black-sounding names and white-sounding were distributed and the white-sounding names were always called back more frequently.

If we had more Denzel Washingtons, the black demographic would see less racism and be able to move up in society.

...you're kind of proving the point here. it tends to be that black people are presumed guilty until proven innocent. nobody says "if we had more more pierre trudeaus and less dick cheneys, white people would be hated less." what i mean is, a white man can fail without his actions punishing his entire race.

and let me clarify before some of you got nuts on me, im speaking of course very generally. not every white man is more priveleged than every black man, it is just that statistically they tend to be.

[DBoons Ghost]

you are naive. why else would it be such a huge deal that barack obama may become the next president? and there have been numerous studies done in a variety of places where dummy resumes with black-sounding names and white-sounding were distributed and the white-sounding names were always called back more frequently.

If he's naive, you're crazy. I believe we wrecked that arguement the last time you presented it. The study was conducted with 2 corporations in Boston and Chicago if I recall. No criteria was provided other then the nonsense about names. Either way, Chicago and Boston are two cities. 2 companies in 2 cities hardly presents any indication of a nationwide racist stance. It's absurd to cite that study.


it tends to be that black people are presumed guilty until proven innocent. nobody says "if we had more more pierre trudeaus and less dick cheneys, white people would be hated less." what i mean is, a white man can fail without his actions punishing his entire race.

and let me clarify before some of you got nuts on me, im speaking of course very generally. not every white man is more priveleged than every black man, it is just that statistically they tend to be.

In the first paragraph you use biased statistics and in the next one you say white men have stastic tendencies to be more privileged..

I'm curious if you can prove this? Mostly white people are on welfare in America. That can be proven. If they were all so privileged, wouldn't it be the other way around?

[Give me Beer]

Phew, I'm glad I don't live in the USA, you guys have issues.

I would however like to say that saying that minorities acting racist isn' a big deal is really an idiotic point. The way of thinking is wrong, by default it's a ****ing problem, even if there aren't any "consequences". I know some black people that immigrated to the USA, and they got treated like **** by the so called "authentic African-Americans" and told to go back to Africa and all that ****. There was no monetary consequence, but I need not tell you that it was a ****ing horrible experience for them.

Racism is always bad people.

Turks are a minority here, but there racist attitude towards Kurds caused a big riot that resulted in stores being burned and people getting hurt. I'm sure those Kurds will love to hear that the Turkish racism is no real problem 'cause they're not in a position of "power" and thus can't hold them down. :rolleyes:

Hey, I'll tell that 70 year old German guy that got kicked half to death a while ago while some "minority" kids were yelling "Scheisse Deutscher" at him that he shouldn't feel bad. Their racism is not a real problem since they are only a minority.

:rolleyes:

[spitfirejunky]

^ Damnit man, read the thread. None of this **** that chrono and Sleep are spewing is commonplace.

[guitrguy]

I went to a high school that was 50% black, but being called white boy and cracker, and hearing snide comments when they see a white man doing manual labor is definitely not racist.

[DBoons Ghost]

Even if that is the case though GMB, what solution? Racism is the norm. Some people blame America historically but racism has existed as long as mankind has.

Just because some people have developed tolerance and are able to desensitize any personal effect racist comments might have on someone, doesn't change anything. It's always the USA but plenty of countries Germany and Albania come to mind, with racial intolerance worse then ours currently is. I'm not defending the great melting pot experiment but even if black people weren't dragged out of their huts and brought over here in chains, we'd still have racism. The first 2 generations of my family were treated like garbage by the Irish who ran NYC back in those days. Nothing for it. Suck it up, know you're better and move on. To blame entire other races and bicker about who is priviliged and who isn't is absurd.

Legislation toward hate crime only crowds prisons. You can't legislate people's feelings away. There is no solution aside from tolerance and understanding. Patience and education only go so far. You can't force anyone to love anyone. You can't force a man to love a woman, and y ou can't force a white man to love a black man. It's either there or it isn't.

Somethings you just have to let be so they work themselves away by default. Interacial breeding over time will wipe away any division away but it's gonna take time. Who knows if it will even break the mold.

[Give me Beer]

I did read the thread, I'm not even touching that with a six foot pole. I just got pissed of by that little part of his argument 'cause I even know people that got beaten up by "minorities" for being "Belgian". I also have friends that have the audacity to date outside of their "minority" group and they catch all sort of **** for it (like this Turkish girl I know). So it pisses me off when it is termed as "non-important racism".

Most of them aren't that racist, but claiming racism isn't a problem when it comes from minorities is just a piss *** weak argument.

EDIT: Your argument doesn't seem to be responding to mine at all DBoon. I'm not proposing solutions, since I indeed do not believe in legislating attitudes. I'm saying that saying it's not a problem is almost giving a green light for it and excusing it. It's not excusable. I'm not tolerant of racist behavior, no matter who it comes from.

[spitfirejunky]

Oh OK. Well DBoons Ghost pretty much nailed it.

[Give me Beer]

Oh OK. Well DBoons Ghost pretty much nailed it.

There's a difference between saying "racism is not a problem" and "we can't legislate it".

You can't legislate it, but that's no reason to be "tolerant" of it. That's being part of the problem. I'd advise you to call anybody out on it, regardless of who it is or what type of racism it's supposed to represent. Race is a ****ing dumb card and ethnicity is so artificial it hurts.

[DBoons Ghost]

There's a difference between saying "racism is not a problem" and "we can't legislate it".

You can't legislate it, but that's no reason to be "tolerant" of it. That's being part of the problem. I'd advise you to call anybody out on it, regardless of who it is or what type of racism it's supposed to represent. Race is a ****ing dumb card and ethnicity is so artificial it hurts.

You believe that very passionately. So do I. So do a lot of people. I admire anyone who can rise above petty skin color and language to see we all bleed red and have the same brain that works the same way.

That's about it though. I have black friends who would punch you in the face if you claimed the establishment kept them down and they were too weak to defeat it. If we all claimed that to be the case no single entity of race who came to this country would have anything to show for it. Could we all blame each other for that?

Racism will be a problem as long as we use it for an excuse.

[guitrguy]

Its amazing how far the realization that the actions and injustices of the few do not represent the whole.

[Give me Beer]

You believe that very passionately. So do I. So do a lot of people. I admire anyone who can rise above petty skin color and language to see we all bleed red and have the same brain that works the same way.

That's about it though. I have black friends who would punch you in the face if you claimed the establishment kept them down and they were too weak to defeat it. If we all claimed that to be the case no single entity of race who came to this country would have anything to show for it. Could we all blame each other for that?

Racism will be a problem as long as we use it for an excuse.

Dude, didn't I just say that I wasn't touching the whole "establishment" discussion with a six foot pole? I didn't post a single argument about it, nor do I intend to it. It's great that your friends believe that, but honestly, I don't care, I'm not American. I don't live there, I don't know if any of it is true or not and I don't even want to argue it, it's really secondary for me anyway.

I'm just saying that anybody that gives in to racism has a problem, and I don't give two shits what race they are. I really don't care about that, it's a wrong attitude no matter who it comes from, and that was my only point. I saw somebody claim that minorities being racist is not really a problem, and I responded that it was because they're all part of the same problem, and that's racism in the first place. I don't care who perpetrates it against who, whoever perpetrate it is wrong.

That said, I do not believe in legislating any of it either. People can't be forced to think like me. That doesn't mean I can't set an example and call them out when I believe they are wrong. I don't mean you should do anything more than that, just don't accept it as being a fact of life and excuse it because it will happen. Disapproval can be shown, even if there needs not be a punitive action attached to it.

[DBoons Ghost]

Dude, didn't I just say that I wasn't touching the whole "establishment" discussion with a six foot pole? I didn't post a single argument about it, nor do I intend to it. It's great that your friends believe that, but honestly, I don't care, I'm not American. I don't live there, I don't know if any of it is true or not and I don't even want to argue it, it's really secondary for me anyway.

I'm just saying that anybody that gives in to racism has a problem, and I don't give two poops what race they are. I really don't care about that, it's a wrong attitude no matter who it comes from, and that was my only point. I saw somebody claim that minorities being racist is not really a problem, and I responded that it was because they're all part of the same problem, and that's racism in the first place. I don't care who perpetrates it against who, whoever perpetrate it is wrong.

That said, I do not believe in legislating any of it either. People can't be forced to think like me. That doesn't mean I can't set an example and call them out when I believe they are wrong. I don't mean you should do anything more than that, just don't accept it as being a fact of life and excuse it because it will happen. Disapproval can be shown, even if there needs not be a punitive action attached to it.


So we agree on pretty much all counts as I know from just how you are for the last couple of years.. I wasn't trying to drag you into the black people versus Uncle Sam arguement either.. I guess I misundertood the intention of your statement.

It's great that this little back and forth at the very least drove the point further home.

[Give me Beer]

:) I agree with you most of the time yeah.

Y'know, I just saw a bunch of Spike Lee movies, all about the subject. Kind of got an overdose on it. I still like P.E. though.

Here the whole race debate is really different though, it's about immigrantion, and most importantly, not really immigration but Islam and Islamophobia. I don't feel qualified to judge about the situation there, it's really completely different from here. Even our relation with the Congolese is a lot different fom the Afro-American / Ex-slaveowner thing. (Half of the Congolese hate Belgium and the other half want them BACK.) My aunt worked there and she either got spat on or she got greeted as a long lost half-sister.

P.S. Just to make a little factual correction. When Leopold ruled Congo, it was his private Colony, it was not property of the Belgian state and his company was an international company, even though most of the people in it were in fact Belgian.

P.P.S. My people were oppressed by the Belgian state as well :( my grandfather even got beatings in primary school for having the audicity to speak in his own language.

[ringworm]

Oh OK. Well DBoons Ghost pretty much nailed it.

yep, thats DBoon for ya :)

[Iskandar]

P.P.S. My people were oppressed by the Belgian state as well my grandfather even got beatings in primary school for having the audicity to speak in his own language.Was he supposed to be speaking French or Dutch?

[Give me Beer]

French, you got beatings for speaking Flemish.

[Danish]

I think you're sort of missing the point.

I am not saying all white people, or the white people in power, are necessarily racist on a conscious level. The idea of privilege doesn't have to do with people actively oppressing POCs, or recognizing that they have privilege, it is simply the way in which our society is, and has always been.

The biggest issue here, from what I can tell, is a misunderstanding of the word "racist".

You are a breath of fresh air!:chug:

[chronopops]

You are a breath of fresh air!:chug:

Ya, unfortunately all the fresh air gets stomped out of me by the majority of this forum.