Abortion Law

[Hababi]

Instead of arguing about the ethics of abortion, which has been done numerous times, what do you think the ideal legal status of abortion is?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_law

This gives a breakdown of abortion law as it stands in various nations, and gives a pretty good explanation of the varying codes.

At one far end, you have Sweden, Canada, and most of the US, who have what amounts to abortion on demand. Anyone can at any time have an abortion for any reason. 8.5 months in and tired of looking fat? They'll let you abort.

Then at the other end, you have a few nations, Chile, the Vatican, El Salvador and Malta, who have a blanket ban on abortion.

Many nations have something in between. Many limit availability to the first semester, or first two semesters.

So where do you think it should stand?

[Bordello]

Legal for rape, maternal life, health, mental health, socioecomic factors, and/or fetal defects.

[thedeadwalk!]

As long as they pay for it, legal on demand in the first trimester.

[Against Miik!]

I'd say illegal, unless the woman or baby's life is at risk. Rape maybe, but thats a tough case to prove sometimes. Beyond that, I think it is up to science to prove that a fetus is not comparable to a human life in any way. If they can do that, I'd be all for legal abortions, with a few restrictions of course.

[-1up!-]

Legal, period.

[thedeadwalk!]

Beyond that, I think it is up to science to prove that a fetus is not comparable to a human life in any way.
Science knows around what time body parts and organs form, even when the fetus can begin to feel. It's not up to them to decide when it becomes a "life."

Science doesn't deal with ethics.

[Against Miik!]

But ethics are subjective, and we need something concrete.

[thedeadwalk!]

And determining when it is "human life" is subjective. If you want when some particular organ or nerve system forms, then science can help you.

[Reaganista]

whenever
wherever

[Give me Beer]

Well, lets see, if you ban it then ... people are going to have illegal abortions which carry a lot more risks for the person involved ...so you're not really stopping anything, only making it more difficult and dangerous.

[Against Miik!]

Well we do give needles to drug users and condoms to 14 year olds, so I guess that makes sense.

[lunchforthesky]

Totally legal.

It's pretty nasty stuff after the first stage and I wouldn't really want it myself but it's still not my place to step in as far as I'm concerned.

[-1up!-]

Well we do give needles to drug users and condoms to 14 year olds, so I guess that makes sense.

Wait what exactly is the problem with giving condoms to 14 year olds?

[Iskandar]

On demand.

[gregulus]

Legal whenever. It's not the business of the state to know why you don't want a baby. Of course, there's more to the argument, but I guess it's an ethical argument.

[Mr. Ron]

I'm on the fence. I'm usually only for abortion in the first trimester, idk.

[Luc214]

Only in cases of rape, danger to the mother's help, or similar should it be legal imo.

[TheDarkHorse]

Illegal unless the mother's life is in danger.

Pregnancy by rape is very rare by the way.

[Elektrobank]

I agree with free choice.

I however do not agree with the "Abortion Sandwich" Act that I read about.

[Iskandar]

Appears abortion without restrictions is the dominant model worldwide.

[Valhall]

It is not the role of the government to step into such matters.

[Elektrobank]

It is not the role of the government to step into such matters.

I agree.

Unless they want to pay for the child to live happily.

[Iskandar]

People shouldn't have to pay for abortions, not when quite a lot of people who require them are likely to be poor.

[Iscariot]

Illegal except to save the woman's life, cases of rape, and the such.

[Iskandar]

I don't get that position.

[Iscariot]

I don't understand letting people kill babies on a whim, so I guess we differ.

[Iskandar]

I don't understand letting people kill babies on a whim, so I guess we differ.To prevent the child from being born.

[sweboy]

To prevent the child from being born.

Ah. See I thought it was a means of food production.

[Spiritofmosa]

i think people are taking life more lightly.. because sex has become more casual.

[Give me Beer]

People shouldn't have to pay for abortions, not when quite a lot of people who require them are likely to be poor.

You shold read Freakonomics, it asserts that the number one reason for the fall of crime in the 90s is Roe vs.Wade, when abortion became legal, it became affordable to many people of the lower classes, whose children were most in danger of entering in criminal activities. Because these started to get aborted, the children ever existed and thus crime started to fall just as these would have reached the age to enter in these activities.

So basically, abortion is a good way to fight crime. :0

[Hababi]

You shold read Freakonomics, it asserts that the number one reason for the fall of crime in the 90s is Roe vs.Wade, when abortion became legal, it became affordable to many people of the lower classes, whose children were most in danger of entering in criminal activities. Because these started to get aborted, the children ever existed and thus crime started to fall just as these would have reached the age to enter in these activities.

So basically, abortion is a good way to fight crime. :0

The number one flaw of Freakonomics is conflating correlation and causation.

And beyond that, it's a pretty illiberal and repellent argument to make--"Get the poor to kill their children, or else they'll become criminals and put the rest of us in danger!"

Of course, that is what's at the root of Planned Parenthood--carefully planned eugenics.

[DBoons Ghost]

Legal on demand whenever wherever.

Abortion is better then any alternative, outside of a child being born into a loving home of wanting parents.. but how often does that happen anymore?

[Hababi]

Appears abortion without restrictions is the dominant model worldwide.

I don't think you can make a global observation, as it depends entirely on region. Abortion on demand is in vogue in Western Europe and the former Soviet states. Outside of that, along with the US and Canada, opinion differs. AoD is not the trend in South America, Africa, or the Middle East.

[Give me Beer]

The number one flaw of Freakonomics is conflating correlation and causation.

And beyond that, it's a pretty illiberal and repellent argument to make--"Get the poor to kill their children, or else they'll become criminals and put the rest of us in danger!"

Of course, that is what's at the root of Planned Parenthood--carefully planned eugenics.

Have you read the book? He makes a pretty well argued argument. Nobody is actually making that argument though, at least, that's not the argument made by me or the author, it's the conclusion though.

It's not because the argument is shocking or repellent that it's untrue.

[PerpetualBurn]

Kill foetuses whenever.

[Hababi]

Have you read the book? He makes a pretty well argued argument. Nobody is actually making that argument though, at least, that's not the argument made by me or the author, it's the conclusion though.

Wait, he makes a well argued argument that no one's actually arguing but everyone's concluding?



It's not because the argument is shocking or repellent that it's untrue.

Prejudging a person because of their socioeconomic class, while the goal and motive of Planned Parenthood's founder, is not a morally or ethically defensible position today.

[Give me Beer]

Wait, he makes a well argued argument that no one's actually arguing but everyone's concluding?

Sorry, I worded that badly, I mean his argument that Roe vs. Wade is the number one reason for the decline in crime in the 90s is well argued, but nobody is arguing that we should kill poor peoples kids so that the crime rate will fall.

Prejudging a person because of their socioeconomic class, while the goal and motive of Planned Parenthood's founder, is not a morally or ethically defensible position today.

Err ... I was talking about the argument made in freakonomics, I'm not American, I have no clue as to what Planned Parenthood is or who founded it.

[Hababi]

Sorry, I worded that badly, I mean his argument that Roe vs. Wade is the number one reason for the decline in crime in the 90s is well argued, but nobody is arguing that we should kill poor peoples kids so that the crime rate will fall.

The thing is that if you're not really willing to make that point, or to take it all the way, then I don't see the point of making it at all.

If we prejudge people based on their socioeconomic standing, and assigned their worth as human beings based on that, then yes, we'd encourage the less well-off to not procreate, because poor people, overall, have a higher rate of criminality than middle class or rich people. But we don't prejudge people.



Err ... I was talking about the argument made in freakonomics, I'm not American, I have no clue as to what Planned Parenthood is or who founded it.

Ah, well PP is the leading voice for the abortion industry in America, and its founder was an out and out eugenicist and bigot.

[Dr Hooch]

Woman's body, her choice

[Give me Beer]

Well, they're more likely to enter into violent, street-level crime. While on the other hand white-collar workers are more likely to be involved in things like fraud ... and I don't see why it isn't an interesting fact to note that it is the major reason for the drop in crime. There is no need to attach any sort of policy to that fact.

[Dr Hooch]

The thing is that if you're not really willing to make that point, or to take it all the way, then I don't see the point of making it at all.


Unfortunately the world doesn't have to provide you with information that makes making ethical choices easy.


Ah, well PP is the leading voice for the abortion industry in America, and its founder was an out and out eugenicist and bigot.


Well they sound pretty uncool.

[DBoons Ghost]

i think people are taking life more lightly.. because sex has become more casual.

Abortion laws in America only starting being formed in the 1820s and the only reason they appeared were because women were dying due to unsafe procedures, not because of the babies being killed.

Birth control solved a lot of that with the feminist movement but since it's not 100% effective and people often don't even use it due to parent's laying their religious dogma at their children's feet, we have you thinking this absurd nonsense.

[PerpetualBurn]

Ah, well PP is the leading voice for the abortion industry in America, and its founder was an out and out eugenicist and bigot.

The personal beliefs of the founder are irrelevant.

[Hababi]

Abortion laws in America only starting being formed in the 1820s and the only reason they appeared were because women were dying due to unsafe procedures, not because of the babies being killed.

Prostitution wasn't banned until Victorian England, and even then it was due to a syphilis outbreak, not the moral objection to the practice.

Abortion was banned in part due to the increased casualties but also in part due to the increased practice. When it rarely happened, there wasn't a pressing need to legislate, but when it became more common, people recognized the offense.

[Reaganista]

making it legal only in cases of rape would of course lead to a big jump in false rape accusations and make it even more difficult for actual rapists to get convicted i hope someone has mentioned this already

[Shell]

illegal except to save the woman's life

[gregulus]

This thread is pointless without reasons, honestly.

[Mr. Ron]

Are the majority of you for abortions after the first trimester? Even abortions late into the development cycle?

[Shell]

There is really no way to determine when it would stop being an acceptable time to stop allowing abortions... in my opinion, by the time a woman realizes she's pregnant, the fetus has already developed enough that it's wrong to abort.

[Hababi]

This thread is pointless without reasons, honestly.

I was less interested in an argument about the (lack of) ethics of abortion than about finding out where people actually stand in terms of where they want the law to be.

[Permanent Solution]

The core question I come to in this issue is what makes us define something as human? Because if it is merely DNA, then all abortion would be illegal due to murder laws. But obviously this is not the case, so the question actually needing to be answered is when a fetus becomes a human.

The question is not the oft stated question of when life begins. Parasites are alive. Micro organisms are alive. A fetus is obviously alive.

[gregulus]

There is really no way to determine when it would stop being an acceptable time to stop allowing abortions... in my opinion, by the time a woman realizes she's pregnant, the fetus has already developed enough that it's wrong to abort.

On what grounds is it wrong?

[Shell]

in my mind... when it has a beating heart and developing brain, it's beyond being just a group of cells, so it shouldn't be killed

[Permanent Solution]

Having a beating heart and a developing brain is just a group of cells though =\

[gregulus]

in my mind... when it has a beating heart and developing brain, it's beyond being just a group of cells, so it shouldn't be killed
Why does that justify forcing someone to have a child that they don't want?

[Reaganista]

illegal except to save the woman's life

and you're a healthcare professional??????????????

[Dr Hooch]

Are the majority of you for abortions after the first trimester? Even abortions late into the development cycle?

I dunno, ask a doctor if he thinks it's what's right for the woman



Abortions a week before birth are a really terrible idea but there's no self-emergent reason why they would be unethical

[Shell]

Believe me, Tway... it can be really difficult at times when your personal beliefs contradict with something that is required by your job... or with the beliefs of your patient. But you have to put your own personal feelings aside and do your job.

Why does that justify forcing someone to have a child that they don't want?

Anyone who has sex knows that there is a possibility of pregnancy resulting from it. It's a chance you take when you choose to have sex.

In the case of rape, adoption is the best option. It's not the child's fault that it was conceived through a violent act, and that doesn't make it any less deserving of living.

Abortions a week before birth are a really terrible idea but there's no self-emergent reason why they would be unethical

How is that not unethical?

[Mr. Ron]

I dunno, ask a doctor if he thinks it's what's right for the woman



Abortions a week before birth are a really terrible idea but there's no self-emergent reason why they would be unethical

wouldn't that be killing a human, though? Since it is basically a fully formed baby a week before birth?

[PerpetualBurn]

Are the majority of you for abortions after the first trimester? Even abortions late into the development cycle?

I'm all for them.

[Mr. Ron]

I'm all for them.

I'm all for them in the first trimester, but late in the cycle? Thats a human being.

[IDEA]

I couldn't ask someone to have an abortion after the first trimester, so that's the option I went with.

[PerpetualBurn]

I'm all for them in the first trimester, but late in the cycle? Thats a human being.

How so?

[Permanent Solution]

I'm all for them in the first trimester, but late in the cycle? Thats a human being.
What makes it a human being than and not before or after then?

[Reaganista]

Believe me, Tway... it can be really difficult at times when your personal beliefs contradict with something that is required by your job... or with the beliefs of your patient. But you have to put your own personal feelings aside and do your job.
ok then
Are the majority of you for abortions after the first trimester? Even abortions late into the development cycle?
im for abortions up to 9 months after that i guess we would have to stop calling it abortion

wouldn't that be killing a human, though? Since it is basically a fully formed baby a week before birth?
and if it is
so what
it's not like it can value anything

[Dr Hooch]

What makes it a human being than and not before or after then?

This. The only clean lines one can really draw are "could survive outside mother" and "is actually out of mother". Outside that it's arbitrary.

[Mr. Ron]

How so?

Its a fully formed human baby. I don't see how that isn't a human.

[Reaganista]

why is that even important there is no god it doesn't matter if it's human or not

[gregulus]

Anyone who has sex knows that there is a possibility of pregnancy resulting from it. It's a chance you take when you choose to have sex.
Even if the quality of life resulting from the pregnancy will be less than ideal for both the mother and the child? I really hope you're more than willing to help pick up the tab required for the child to get the proper care it needs.

In the case of rape, adoption is the best option. It's not the child's fault that it was conceived through a violent act, and that doesn't make it any less deserving of living.
A 9 month long persistent reminder of a traumatizing event probably won't do much for the mother. Forcing a rape victim to actually have a child that resulted from such an act is an idea that boggles my mind. The consequences on the mother take precedent.

[PerpetualBurn]

Its a fully formed human baby. I don't see how that isn't a human.

Then I guess maybe there's a case that we should c-section it and have it adopted or something.

I don't see that we shouldn't kill it though.

[VomitStainedCretin]

wouldn't that be killing a human, though? Since it is basically a fully formed baby a week before birth?What is it to be 'human' ; as Permanent Solution stated earlier, if we considered humanity as based purely on DNA, we have ridiculous consequences (zygotes considered in same context as fully formed homo sapiens). If we considered to be 'human' and to be sentient to be equivalent, that validates infanticide.

[PerpetualBurn]

Either way we can get a few more frags in.

[Dr Hooch]

And just don't anyone even dare go on an "appeal to emotion" based logical fallacy

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

Legal on demand, but it should be up to the individual states to set their own abortion laws

[PerpetualBurn]

And just don't anyone even dare go on an "appeal to emotion" based logical fallacyBecause we're real men.

And real men don't have feelings.

it should be up to the individual states to set their own abortion laws

I don't see this as important since they should all make the same laws on the subject.

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

Still, it's not the federal government's role. Roe v. Wade's assertion that it violated the Right to Privacy is too much of a stretch in my opinion

[lunchforthesky]

But the idea that the federal or state government can tell a women what to do with her body is not an equal or larger infringement on liberty?

[VomitStainedCretin]

Aborted foetuses can be put to good use by processing the carcasses into cattle feed.

[McP3000]

Legal up to the end of the first trimester

woop woop

[Iskandar]

Second.

[McP3000]

Second.
Do you mean that you second my statement, or that you only agree with it until the end of the second trimester?

[Iskandar]

Do you mean that you second my statement, or that you only agree with it until the end of the second trimester?Both, sort of.

[Mr. Ron]

What is it to be 'human' ; as Permanent Solution stated earlier, if we considered humanity as based purely on DNA, we have ridiculous consequences (zygotes considered in same context as fully formed homo sapiens). If we considered to be 'human' and to be sentient to be equivalent, that validates infanticide.
I'm pretty sure an infant is a human.

why is that even important there is no god it doesn't matter if it's human or not
I don't see what god has to do with this. From my point of view aborting an infant that is fully formed isn't right, personally.


Then I guess maybe there's a case that we should c-section it and have it adopted or something.

I don't see that we shouldn't kill it though.
Because its a fully formed baby? Would you mind me going up to your infant and blowing it's brains out with a .45?

Like i said, its not a human in the first trimester, and I'm totally fine with abortion then, but when its a regular baby, about to be born, then I don't see how you wouldn't call that murder.

[Reaganista]

I don't see what god has to do with this. From my point of view aborting an infant that is fully formed isn't right, personally.
what for no reason at all

Because its a fully formed baby? Would you mind me going up to your infant and blowing it's brains out with a .45?
uhhh could you come up with a more ridiculous way to illustrate a total lack of understanding of the situation

[PerpetualBurn]

Because its a fully formed baby? Would you mind me going up to your infant and blowing it's brains out with a .45?


There's just no way you can re-read this question and still think you're making a serious point.

[Dr Hooch]

Ron at the start it is blatatnly not a human

at the end it blatantly is

what we're saying is at no point does anything magic happen

so it's not FULLY human until it comes out

[VomitStainedCretin]

My point was that sentience is a relatively late development and occurs some time after birth so if the definition of 'human' is to be sentient, then infants are not.

Speaking of Human, currently listening to the album (by Death that it is)

[McP3000]

If the fetus can be extracted from the woman's womb and it can survive by the same means a normally birthed baby, then it is human.

Why do you people continue to ask all these ****ing "WAHT IS A HUMAN?" questions?

[sweboy]

Ron at the start it is blatatnly not a human

at the end it blatantly is

what we're saying is at no point does anything magic happen

so it's not FULLY human until it comes out

Well does something magic happen at the moment it comes out?

[Dr Hooch]

Well does something magic happen at the moment it comes out?

yes

It's no longer a part of the mother

[Mr. Ron]

Ron at the start it is blatatnly not a human

at the end it blatantly is

what we're saying is at no point does anything magic happen

so it's not FULLY human until it comes out


I agree that at the start it is not a human, but i just don't agree that a fully formed baby should be killed. imo. Even if it is part of the mother still, its still a fellow human being at that point.

[PerpetualBurn]

It's a good job you added "imo" otherwise I'd ask you to justify such a premise.

[DBoons Ghost]

This is the same arguement in every abortion thread ever. I am so tired of this retarded arguement that I just can't understand why people engage in it every single time there is a thread of this nature. Is it really the issue when life starts? Is it really a point of arguing when it becomes human?

Let's argue the facts we know. I'm really tired of college student armchair idiots trying to claim idiocy.

Here is a fact. 3700 Abortions a day in the US alone. 1.37 Million a year.

4.1 million children were born in 2006 which is great for lifers and God and joy.

Just under 900k kids every year are victims of abuse or neglect. The numbers grows steadily every year. These are kids born to families and not even those in the "system" as it's hard to compile those stats because they are buried in bureacracy.

Now, any logical ****ing person would see those stats and say "Hmm.. how amny of those kids that were neglected, abused and ignored should have been aborted.."

I find it hard to believe that this never comes into play. God cannot save these kids. Planned Parenthood can only do so much. They guilt these mothers into having their children and most if not all mothers who carry to full term end up keeping the kid because babies are cute and cuddly and then when it becomes obvious that the child requires more time then the parent is willing to give they neglect and abuse their child and sometimes kill their children.

I cannot find statstics on infanticide. Meaning, infants placed in trash bags by their mommies upon delivery. That seems so much more humane then abortion eh?

If you make abortion illegal mothers will still kill their children, and then our jails will be flooed with women who excersized their right to choose and that is a world I wouldn't live in.

Actually I don't care because I'm not a woman. Funny how the most vehement of arguements are presented by males.

[Mr. Ron]

It's a good job you added "imo" otherwise I'd ask you to justify such a premise.

I take it that you have this particular stance because of the kind of environment the baby is in, and that its still a part of the mother? Is that why?

[PerpetualBurn]

I take it that you have this particular stance because of the kind of environment the baby is in, and that its still a part of the mother? Is that why?

I think whether or not something should be killed is entirely circumstantial and not easily blanketed by some unjustifiable moral premise.

Is it really a point of arguing when it becomes human?

Yes.

[Ganondorf]

legal until the umbilical cord is cut. this way we can wait till its out then hit it with a hammer, a lot cheaper, and still painful for the woman haha

[DBoons Ghost]

Yes.

I can't see how considering the kids will die aware and miserable rather then in infancy even if that's the arguement.

Stats will prove this to be the case. I suppose it's about retribution? Someone paying for the murder of innocent babies?

If you let a woman choose free from scrutiny regardless of your selfish moral stance as it is right now, then when a parent kills their child they can and will go to jail as they should. If you take away woman's right to choose they will kill their unborn child any way they can.

What happens then? What would we as a society do to stop infanticide? Force women in shackles to be bedridden until the child is born and then take it away to be raised by monks?

Madness.

[Mr. Ron]

I think whether or not something should be killed is entirely circumstantial and not easily blanketed by some unjustifiable moral premise.



Yes.

Ok, I can see where you are coming from. Personally, I also think death and killing is purely circumstantial, but a part of me just cringes at ending a human's life that is fully formed. To me just ending human life (last stage of pregnancy) because it is unwanted is unethical.

[Ganondorf]

tbh, people who see abortion at any stage as ''wrong'' because of religious reasons should just not get abortiosn themslevs, and waited for everyone else to get sent to hell when they die...if that's what they believe in.

[sweboy]

yes

It's no longer a part of the mother

So if you put it back in there trough surgery it's cool to kill it again? (you could put swimming glasses on it to increase comfort)

[Mr. Ron]

tbh, people who see abortion at any stage as ''wrong'' because of religious reasons should just not get abortiosn themslevs, and waited for everyone else to get sent to hell when they die...if that's what they believe in.


I always thought it was funny to ask a christian where aborted babies and babies that die early go when they die. The generally say "they go to heaven", but when you pose the question of "if you think that, wouldn't an abortion be good if your directly sending a child to heaven?" they get a nice expression on their faces. :p

[PerpetualBurn]

I can't see how considering the kids will die aware and miserable rather then in infancy even if that's the arguement.

Stats will prove this to be the case. I suppose it's about retribution? Someone paying for the murder of innocent babies?

If you let a woman choose free from scrutiny regardless of your selfish moral stance as it is right now, then when a parent kills their child they can and will go to jail as they should. If you take away woman's right to choose they will kill their unborn child any way they can.

What happens then? What would we as a society do to stop infanticide? Force women in shackles to be bedridden until the child is born and then take it away to be raised by monks?

Madness.

The question is what distinction do we make between foetuses, and people that allows us to deny them basic human rights.

Ok, I can see where you are coming from. Personally, I also think death and killing is purely circumstantial, but a part of me just cringes at ending a human's life that is fully formed. To me just ending human life (last stage of pregnancy) because it is unwanted is unethical.

Sure. But we're supposed to be beyond such simple appeals to emotion here.

I always thought it was funny to ask a christian where aborted babies and babies that die early go when they die. The generally say "they go to heaven", but when you pose the question of "if you think that, wouldn't an abortion be good if your directly sending a child to heaven?" they get a nice expression on their faces.

That question poses absolutely no problems for Christianity.

[Mr. Ron]

The question is what distinction do we make between foetuses, and people that allows us to deny them basic human rights.



Sure. But we're supposed to be beyond such simple appeals to emotion here.

I do admit a lot of it is comprised of emotion, or what have you. This is the only subject where I tend to feel this way though. I'm strange. But anyways, agree to disagree.

[PerpetualBurn]

I'll agree that I've reduced your argument to a point at which it is no longer defensible.

[Mr. Ron]

ok good job then.

[ringworm]

I always thought it was funny to ask a christian where aborted babies and babies that die early go when they die. The generally say "they go to heaven", but when you pose the question of "if you think that, wouldn't an abortion be good if your directly sending a child to heaven?" they get a nice expression on their faces. :p
lol

[Dr Hooch]

So if you put it back in there trough surgery it's cool to kill it again? (you could put swimming glasses on it to increase comfort)

what no

it'd be unethical to drown a baby by cutting open a woman and plunging it inside and then sewing it up

EDIT:

Best 2000th post i could ever have asked for

[Reaganista]

The question is what distinction do we make between foetuses, and people that allows us to deny them basic human rights.

they cant value the rights you're not allowing them

[gregulus]

they cant value the rights you're not allowing them

this raises the question of whether or not we should allow them said rights.

[Iskandar]

Fetuses don't have rights.

[GreyHam]

its a tough one this, but im certainly with the idea that it should only be 'on demand' up to 24 weeks, after which it should only be when there is serious health issues either to the mother or child

banning abortions will only mean more unwanted children, while personally id say having them after the foetus is viable is immoral

more importantly though is TEACHING SAFE SEX AND CONTRACEPTION IN SCHOOLS SO THERES NO EXCUSES ABOUT NOT KNOWING THE CONSEQUENCES OF YOUR ACTIONS!!!

[McP3000]

This thread makes me angry.

[VomitStainedCretin]

I always thought it was funny to ask a christian where aborted babies and babies that die early go when they die. The generally say "they go to heaven", but when you pose the question of "if you think that, wouldn't an abortion be good if your directly sending a child to heaven?" they get a nice expression on their faces. :pWell, you know what they say, abortions send babies to God faster.

[i am the robots]

I'm surprised I'm the only one who voted illegal, period.

To me, it's a human life, and if the mother dies giving birth, it's natural.

[Alcore]

I am anti abortion. However, I realise that if someone wants to do something, they tend to do it (the same goes for drugs, prostitution, etc) and so it should be legal to ensure if someone is going to have an abortion so it will be safe for the mother, and as humane as possible for the foetus.

[VomitStainedCretin]

To me, it's a human life, and if the mother dies giving birth, it's natural.Alexander Fleming was the antichrist man, he disturbed the natural order man; kids with whooping cough should be allowed to die not be given penicillen... :rolleyes:

[IDEA]

more importantly though is TEACHING SAFE SEX AND CONTRACEPTION IN SCHOOLS SO THERES NO EXCUSES ABOUT NOT KNOWING THE CONSEQUENCES OF YOUR ACTIONS!!!

Decrease in teenage pregnancies and abortions, yes?

[Mr. Ron]

I'm surprised I'm the only one who voted illegal, period.

To me, it's a human life, and if the mother dies giving birth, it's natural.

.......would you at least try to save the mother?

[gregulus]

.......would you at least try to save the mother?
IT'S NATURAL. WE SHOULDN'T USE MEDICINE EITHER. IT'S NOT NATURAL.

[Mr. Ron]

oh my bad. I'm so silly sometimes!

[IDEA]

Computers are not natural. Maybe you should stop using yours.

[Reaganista]

I'm surprised I'm the only one who voted illegal, period.

To me, it's a human life, and if the mother dies giving birth, it's natural.

it's also completely retarded

[Dr Hooch]

I'm surprised I'm the only one who voted illegal, period.

To me, it's a human life, and if the mother dies giving birth, it's natural.

I hear that everything natural is good

Just can't get enough of dysentery!

[McP3000]

I hear that everything natural is good

Just can't get enough of dysentery!
incomparable, even though i agree with you thoughts

[PerpetualBurn]

Incomparable?

He's rightly pointing out that whether it's natural is not an indication of any attitude we should have toward it.

[Smokey D]

they cant value the rights you're not allowing them

Nor can a baby, though.

[Hababi]

Here's a story on opinions on abortion from today:


The Growing Aversion to Abortion
By Steve Chapman

The abortion debate has raged since 1973, when the Supreme Court gave abortion constitutional protection, but the basic law of the land has proved immutable. Abortion is legal, and it's going to remain legal for a long time.

Laws often alter attitudes, inducing people to accept things -- such as racial integration -- they once rejected. But sometimes, attitudes move in the opposite direction, as people see the consequences of the change. That's the case with abortion.

The news that the abortion rate has fallen to its lowest level in 30 years elicits various explanations, from increased use of contraceptives to lack of access to abortion clinics. But maybe the chief reason is that the great majority of Americans, even many who see themselves as pro-choice, are deeply uncomfortable with it.

In 1992, a Gallup/Newsweek poll found 34 percent of Americans thought abortion "should be legal under any circumstances," with 13 percent saying it should always be illegal. Last year, only 26 percent said it should always be allowed, with 18 percent saying it should never be permitted.

Sentiments are even more negative among the group that might place the highest value on being able to escape an unwanted pregnancy: young people. In 2003, Gallup found, one of every three kids from age 13 to 17 said abortion should be illegal in all circumstances. More revealing yet is that 72 percent said abortion is "morally wrong."

By now, pro-life groups know that outlawing most abortions is not a plausible aspiration. So they have adopted a two-pronged strategy. The first is to regulate it more closely -- with parental notification laws, informed consent requirements and a ban on partial-birth abortion. The second is to educate Americans with an eye toward changing "hearts and minds." In both, they have had considerable success.

Even those who insist Americans are solidly in favor of legal abortion implicitly acknowledge the widespread distaste. That's why the Democratic Party's 2004 platform omitted any mention of the issue, and why politicians who support abortion rights cloak them in euphemisms like "the right to choose."

But some abortion rights supporters admit reservations. It was a landmark moment in 1995 when the pro-choice author Naomi Wolf, writing in The New Republic magazine, declared that "the death of a fetus is a real death." She went on: "By refusing to look at abortion within a moral framework, we lose the millions of Americans who want to support abortion as a legal right but still need to condemn it as a moral iniquity."

The report on abortion rates from the Guttmacher Institute suggests that the evolution of attitudes has transformed behavior. Since 1990, the number of abortions has dropped from 1.61 million to 1.21 million. The abortion rate among women of childbearing age has declined by 29 percent.

Those changes could be the result of other factors, such as more use of contraception: If fewer women get pregnant, fewer will resort to abortion. But the shift is equally marked among women who do get pregnant. In 1990, 30.4 percent of pregnancies ended in abortion. Last year, the figure was 22.4 percent.

Pro-choice groups say women are having fewer abortions only because abortion clinics are growing scarcer. But abortion clinics may be growing scarcer because of a decline in demand for their services and a public opinion climate that has gotten more inhospitable.

This growing aversion to abortion may be traced to better information. When the Supreme Court legalized abortion in 1973, most people had little understanding of fetal development. But the proliferation of ultrasound images from the womb, combined with the dissemination of facts by pro-life groups, has lifted the veil.

In the new comedy "Juno," a pregnant 16-year-old heads for an abortion clinic, only to change her mind after a teenage protester tells her, "Your baby probably has a beating heart, you know. It can feel pain. And it has fingernails."

"Juno" has been faulted as a "fairy tale" that sugarcoats the realities of teen pregnancy. But if it's a fairy tale, that tells something about how abortion violates our most heartfelt ideals -- and those of our adolescent children. Try to imagine a fairy tale in which the heroine has an abortion and lives happily ever after.

The prevailing view used to be: Abortion may be evil, but it's necessary. Increasingly, the sentiment is: Abortion may be necessary, but it's evil.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/01/post_11.html

[Dr Hooch]

Some surprises in there, but then i guess america is quitea religious country, hence the disapproval amongst young people...


I still don't understand why people think abortion should be exempt from doctor-patient confidentiality. Mandatory informing of parents is simply going to lead to young girls hiding these things for longer until options that might have been most appropriate are gone, or to 15 yr old girls who clearly understand the situation and the negatives being blocked by parents who I don't feel should have a say if the person involved does not want them to be.

[beso negro]

yea abortion sucks, everyone agrees with that, but it's not a good idea to make it illegal.

[Iskandar]

Abortion isn't going away.

[Hababi]

Abortion isn't going away.

Changing the legal status of something isn't based on the presumption that you can completely eradicate it.

[Iskandar]

Changing the legal status of something isn't based on the presumption that you can completely eradicate it.No, I mean its legal status is not going to change.

[Hababi]

No, I mean its legal status is not going to change.

As in, will it be banned in all circumstances? Not likely, at least not for a while.

But will it become more restricted in the coming years? I think there's a good chance of that. The amount of die hard abortion lobby people is going to continue to drop, and the broad based support for abortion law reform will continue.

That entails, most likely, limiting abortion to the first term.

[Iskandar]

As in, will it be banned in all circumstances? Not likely, at least not for a while.

But will it become more restricted in the coming years? I think there's a good chance of that. The amount of die hard abortion lobby people is going to continue to drop, and the broad based support for abortion law reform will continue.

That entails, most likely, limiting abortion to the first term.First of all, it never will be banned because people like having control over their own reproductive systems.

Secondly, name me one country that legalized abortion with few or no restrictions, then drastically reversed its position. And a democracy please; insane dictatorships don't count.

[Hababi]

First of all, it never will be banned because people like having control over their own reproductive systems.

I'll remind you that the illegality of prostitution, amongst other things, is a nascent development on the historical map. The belief that people move perpetually move toward more liberty, in the broadest sense, is errant. Indifference to abortion was strongest before the progress of sonography and broader based knowledge of fetal development.


Secondly, name me one country that legalized abortion with few or no restrictions, then drastically reversed its position. And a democracy please; insane dictatorships don't count.

tbh I don't know the history of abortion law, only the current standing, in countries other than the US. But I know that the evidence is pretty clear that the public tide is reversing on abortion. Drastically? That depends on what you consider drastic.

[Iskandar]

I'll remind you that the illegality of prostitution, amongst other things, is a nascent development on the historical map.Huh? What the hell does that have to do with anything?

The belief that people move perpetually move toward more liberty, in the broadest sense, is errant. Maybe, but I don't see any reason to believe the status quo on abortion is going to change. You probably have a couple of damned studies from ten years ago though.
tbh I don't know the history of abortion law, only the current standing, in countries other than the US. But I know that the evidence is pretty clear that the public tide is reversing on abortion. Drastically? That depends on what you consider drastic.Maybe it is in America. Not anywhere else, except maybe Poland.

[Dr Hooch]

I think the thing is, the anti abortion groups are aggressively anti abortion, whereas the opposing side is merely pro choice; so it is going to seem to legislators and to the public that more people are against than for.

[Hababi]

Huh? What the hell does that have to do with anything?

Views on what precisely constitutes proper liberty hardly constantly move in one direction.

Um, compare liberal democracy to five thousand years ago.

Appears we have a ton more liberty.

In some areas, but not in others. Sexuality is much more governed today than it was in many older societies, who had no problem with adult men having relationships with children, prostitution, etc.


Maybe it is in America. Not anywhere else, except maybe Poland.

Are you talking about the laws or the sentiment? I don't have good data on the sentiment regarding abortion, but the laws are more restricted in many countries, not just Poland. In all of South America, most of Asia, and almost all of Africa. Even in New Zealand. And, in Europe, in Ireland, Luxembourg, Poland, Slovakia, Spain, Portugal, Malta, San Marino, Monaco, and several more countries.


I think the thing is, the anti abortion groups are aggressively anti abortion, whereas the opposing side is merely pro choice; so it is going to seem to legislators and to the public that more people are against than for.

Honestly I've seen some people rabidly pro choice, as vocal and exreme as the most avid pro-lifer. For instance, when the partial birth abortion ban was up, pro choice extremists lined up in Washington and accused the politicians of wanting to rape women, basically.

There's a very loud 10-15% that utterly oppose any restrictions on abortion, and another 10% that's basically in that camp. And, there's about 30% that are utterly against abortion. Then there's the rest of the country, that believes that abortion should be legal but under greater restrictions than it is now.

[Iskandar]

I don't have good data on the sentiment regarding abortion

There's a very loud 10-15% that utterly oppose any restrictions on abortion, and another 10% that's basically in that camp. And, there's about 30% that are utterly against abortion. Then there's the rest of the country, that believes that abortion should be legal but under greater restrictions than it is now.You're right, you don't.

[Hababi]

You're right, you don't.

I meant in regards to other countries, you nob:smash::smash:

[Iskandar]

I meant in regards to other countries, you nob:smash::smash:You don't have good data on America either. You just made all that tosh about percentages up.:)

[Hababi]

You don't have good data on America either. You just made all that tosh about percentages up.:)

Not really. Check the article. Virtually 3 in 4 Americans view abortion as wrong, morally, and almost all of them support greater restrictions on it.

[Iskandar]

Not really. Check the article. Virtually 3 in 4 Americans view abortion as wrong, morally, and almost all of them support greater restrictions on it.I don't give a crap about some article you found, tbh. Don't mean to sound harsh but it's true. It means nothing.

[Hababi]

I don't give a crap about some article you found, tbh. Don't mean to sound harsh but it's true. It means nothing.

Dude, I know much more about the status of abortion in America than you do. I don't get why you've chosen to embrace the radical pro abortion fringe...

[Dr Hooch]

:lol:

[Hababi]

:lol:

http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

Those who support abortion without restrictions are basically in the fringe, representing at most 1/5 of the population.

[Iskandar]

Dude, I know much more about the status of abortion in America than you do. I don't get why you've chosen to embrace the radical pro abortion fringe...Uh, being pro-abortion is mainstream in Canada, and quite a few other countries as well.

There is no debate over abortion here. Everybody accepts it, except maybe the occasional fringe Conservative and the Christian Heritage Party.

[Hababi]

Uh, being pro-abortion is mainstream in Canada, and quite a few other countries as well.

:confused:

When did I say it's not? I'm talking about abortion in America. You guys have the single most lax abortion law in the world.

[dei]

Serenity, you should have been aborted.

[guitrguy]

must spread.

[VomitStainedCretin]

Sentiments are even more negative among the group that might place the highest value on being able to escape an unwanted pregnancy: young people. In 2003, Gallup found, one of every three kids from age 13 to 17 said abortion should be illegal in all circumstances. More revealing yet is that 72 percent said abortion is "morally wrong."And 13-17 years olds have a highly developed moral philosophy... :rolleyes:

[PerpetualBurn]

http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

Those who support abortion without restrictions are basically in the fringe, representing at most 1/5 of the population.

That poll says that a majority of people are in favour of abortion a majority of the time.

And that's before I even complain about how crappy the poll is.

[Waldo]

But my bff Stacey said that abortion is wrong!

[Hababi]

That poll says that a majority of people are in favour of abortion a majority of the time.
..but not in favor of abortion on demand.

[PerpetualBurn]

It depends precisely what you mean by "on demand".

But I don't really care.

That poll is of 1,130 adults nationwide

Wiki gives the population in America at the last census as 281,421,906.

Should I calculate that as a percentage for you?

[VomitStainedCretin]

..but not in favor of abortion on demand.Yes but not in favour of abortion on demand=//=pro-life.

Tbh, maybe America wouldn't require so many abortions if its government's sex education programme didn't teach kids not to use contraception.

Edit: the accuracy of a poll does not improve to any large degree once a sample passes a certain size. A sample of 1,000-1,500 is usually fairly acceptable for precision. As long as those questioned were chosen via an unbiased randomised system, the poll should be reasonably accurate.

[PerpetualBurn]

1,300 isn't a good representation of 300,000,000.

And yes sample size improves the accuracy of the poll.

Otherwise we'd use N=1 and assume everyone agreed with ourselves.

[McP3000]

1,300 isn't a good representation of 300,000,000.

And yes sample size improves the accuracy of the poll.

Otherwise we'd use N=1 and assume everyone agreed with ourselves.
wow you're so smart you're using rudimentary statistics lingo


Anyway, i personally think that abortion is an abhorrent activity and i would discourage any one from getting it done. If someone has unprotected sex and gets pregnant then they should have to pay the consequences.
However, i also think that this is not the government's decision to make for us, and that the choice of abortion should be left legal.

[PerpetualBurn]

wow you're so smart you're using rudimentary statistics lingo

What?

If someone has unprotected sex and gets pregnant then they should have to pay the consequences.

When things go badly we take measures to control the damage, so to speak.

[Ganondorf]

wow you're so smart you're using rudimentary statistics lingo


Anyway, i personally think that abortion is an abhorrent activity and i would discourage any one from getting it done. If someone has unprotected sex and gets pregnant then they should have to pay the consequences.
However, i also think that this is not the government's decision to make for us, and that the choice of abortion should be left legal.

Why should someone be punished in such a ridiculous way? And if the person really can't aford to have the baby, will you feel so good when the child is negelcted/unloved, so long as their mum got ''taught her lesson''?

[Dr Hooch]

http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

Those who support abortion without restrictions are basically in the fringe, representing at most 1/5 of the population.

You refer to it as a fringe when your data that you chose shows it as having more support than those who want abortion illegal...

1/5 is not a fringe.

[PerpetualBurn]

I was going to get to that, Hooch.

Don't ruin the fun by throwing it all out at once.

Little jabs.

[Hababi]

ITT PB shows ignorance of polling and rhetoric

[PerpetualBurn]

But not really.

[Smokey D]

Even in New Zealand

It's really not.

[Dr Hooch]

I was going to get to that, Hooch.

Don't ruin the fun by throwing it all out at once.

Little jabs.

I was thinking more "jabbing all his kidneys at once"

[Illmatic]

If someone has unprotected sex and gets pregnant then they should have to pay the consequences.

so having a child should be a punishment. wow. I love pro-life rhetoric.

[Dr Hooch]

so having a child should be a punishment. wow. I love pro-life rhetoric.

I thought that too.

[1338 h4x0r]

This issue is mired in moral ambiguity.

On the one hand, allowing abortion means that foeti can be dismembered on command.

On the other hand, outlawing abortion means that most any abortions performed will be incredibly gory, unsanitary and pose grave risk to the mother's life and well-being.

There's no clear answer here.

[PerpetualBurn]

There's no clear answer here.

Yes there is.

Hint: abortion is cool

[1338 h4x0r]

Yes there is.

Hint: abortion is cool

Will I have to use DeMorgan's Laws in the solution? I'm only asking for one more hint.

[McP3000]

Why should someone be punished in such a ridiculous way? And if the person really can't aford to have the baby, will you feel so good when the child is negelcted/unloved, so long as their mum got ''taught her lesson''?
What?
When you have unprotected sex you assume the risks of pregnancy. Obviously this isn't a government/legal matter, but a moral one.
Abortion seems like a cop-out to me.

[McP3000]

so having a child should be a punishment. wow. I love pro-life rhetoric.
Im not pro-life
im pro-get the **** out of my business government

And not, having a child isn't necessarily punishment, but it is the consequences to unprotected sex. To some people its a blessing, to some its a burden.

[Ganondorf]

What?
When you have unprotected sex you assume the risks of pregnancy. Obviously this isn't a government/legal matter, but a moral one.
Abortion seems like a cop-out to me.

So would you be opposed to abortion when people get pregnant in the small minority of cases when condoms aren't effective?

[VomitStainedCretin]

This issue is mired in moral ambiguity.

On the one hand, allowing abortion means that foeti can be dismembered on command.

On the other hand, outlawing abortion means that most any abortions performed will be incredibly gory, unsanitary and pose grave risk to the mother's life and well-being.

There's no clear answer here.Must Spread Reputation.Why should someone be punished in such a ridiculous way? And if the person really can't aford to have the baby, will you feel so good when the child is negelcted/unloved, so long as their mum got ''taught her lesson''?Yes, but aborted baby souls are unrefined so it's better if they are allowed to live so their souls can be better processed by some good ole suff'ring... :rolleyes:

[PerpetualBurn]

And not, having a child isn't necessarily punishment, but it is the consequences to unprotected sex.

It doesn't have to be.

[gregulus]

the "you assumed the risks" argument never made sense to me. at all. that seems like one of the worst reasons to have a child to be honest.

"son, i only had you because i had sex and the condom broke. i didn't really want you. sorry."

[lfantwister]

the "you assumed the risks" argument never made sense to me
It would make a lot more sense if we had comprehensive sex ed

[ringworm]

yep, quit treating sex like some closed door, icky act only married people can have

treat it like any other bodily function, quit trying to hide it from kids (who obviously LOVE sex just like everyone else and are going to continue to have sex) and EDUCATE people on how to be responsible instead of scaring them into bad decisions

only bad things can happen to people if they are shielded from whats going to occur in life

[lfantwister]

only bad things can happen to people if they are shielded from whats going to occur in life
...que?

[PerpetualBurn]

The assumed risk is that you might have to have an abortion if things go tits up.

[McP3000]

So would you be opposed to abortion when people get pregnant in the small minority of cases when condoms aren't effective?
No
what

you're putting words in my mouth. i don't think abortion is right in the slightest, and you should love and care for your child no matter if you intended to have it or not. But as i said earlier, i think abortions should be legal (well, until a certain stage in the pregnancy, but im not up to snuff on trimester schematics so ill stay out of that).

It doesn't have to be.
No it doesnt, but that's not the point. Stop giving a negative connotation to the term "consequences".

the "you assumed the risks" argument never made sense to me. at all. that seems like one of the worst reasons to have a child to be honest.

"son, i only had you because i had sex and the condom broke. i didn't really want you. sorry."
You're a heartless abomination to society if you are shallow enough to abort a baby because you are too lazy to raise it.

The assumed risk is that you might have to have an abortion if things go tits up.
lolpun
anyway, stop trolling

[PerpetualBurn]

Sweet zombie Jesus.

Just because there's a risk to an action doesn't mean you shouldn't take action to reduce the damage should the unfortunate occur.

I hate to resort to analogies but there's an assumed risk in driving a car.

But I'll still want to go to hospital if I crash.

[3rdplanet]

At first sight, I'd say I would plump for the legal on demand option; although my own personal policy would be to only have an abortion in the early stages of a pregnancy. Those two views seem kinda inconsistent...I'll have to think about this issue a bit (or lot) more.

You're a heartless abomination to society if you are shallow enough to abort a baby because you are too lazy to raise it.

What do you mean by baby?

[i am the robots]

probably what's made by two humans getting it on
Sweet zombie Jesus.

Just because there's a risk to an action doesn't mean you shouldn't take action to reduce the damage should the unfortunate occur.

I hate to resort to analogies but there's an assumed risk in driving a car.

But I'll still want to go to hospital if I crash.

there's a difference between getting hurt in a car crash and killing somebody before they're even born

[PerpetualBurn]

Yeah that wasn't really the relevant aspect of the analogy.

The point is that if you've taken a calculated risk, you don't forfeit the right to damage control should the unfortunate happen.

If abortion were indeed immoral, it wouldn't be because it was dodging the consequences of the risk.

[i am the robots]

*amoral

and it's still taking a life, regardless of how you want to rationalize it

[PerpetualBurn]

No, I meant immoral.

And my point is, if abortion is in fact wrong (immoral, not amoral) then because it dodges the consequences is not the reason.

[i am the robots]

and im saying theres a difference between killing a baby that youre going to have because you didnt wear a condom or go on birth control and going to the hospital after a carcrash, your comparison doesnt work

[PerpetualBurn]

I'm not saying the two are the exactly the same...

[3rdplanet]

probably what's made by two humans getting it on

There are lots of other things produced by two people getting it on (semen, noise, orgasms); would you call those products babies too?

What I really want to know is a better working definition of baby and maybe why a baby should be valued. From there hopefully I may get a better understanding of their view.

[Illmatic]

Im not pro-life
im pro-get the **** out of my business government

and yet you have no problem telling women what they can and can't do to their bodies.


And not, having a child isn't necessarily punishment, but it is the consequences to unprotected sex. To some people its a blessing, to some its a burden.

when someone who isn't ready and doesn't want to be a parent has a child it's a blessing to no one.

[i am the robots]

There are lots of other things produced by two people getting it on (semen, noise, orgasms); would you call those products babies too?
There's clearly a difference between your listings and a fetus. In most cases, a fetus will develop to become an infant, unless there's a miscarriage, which is an unfortunate, natural death, or if some asshole decides, "well they're not born yet so i can kill em!"

What I really want to know is a better working definition of baby and maybe why a baby should be valued. From there hopefully I may get a better understanding of their view.
If you need to ask why a baby should be valued, you're a sad excuse for a human being.

[PerpetualBurn]

Or maybe he's asking for an objective argument rather than an irrational appeal to human sentiment?

[r1mbaud]

There's clearly a difference between your listings and a fetus. In most cases, a fetus will develop to become an infant, unless there's a miscarriage, which is an unfortunate, natural death, or if some spatula decides, "well they're not born yet so i can kill em!"


If you need to ask why a baby should be valued, you're a sad excuse for a human being.

have you ever seen spun? The cook's final words.. potent straightforwardness in the tone of his voice and the words expressed through it.

[Iskandar]

If you need to ask why a baby should be valued, you're a sad excuse for a human being.A fetus isn't a baby.

[Hababi]

A fetus isn't a baby.

Actually the term baby encompasses fetus'.

"The fetus is kicking"
"WTF??"
"Oh, I mean the baby. The baby is kicking"
"ah"

[PerpetualBurn]

God dammit, Steve.

You must know as well as I do that that doesn't make the two things the same.

[Iskandar]

Actually the term baby encompasses fetus'.

"The fetus is kicking"
"WTF??"
"Oh, I mean the baby. The baby is kicking"
"ah"If you want to get bogged down in semantics, sure.

[Hababi]

If you want to get bogged down in semantics, sure.

That's what you were trying to do. But you were wrong.

[Iskandar]

That's what you were trying to do. But you were wrong.You're wrong on abortion, so it's irrelevant.:)

[Hababi]

You're wrong on abortion, so it's irrelevant.:)

Do you favor abortion on demand or not?

[Iskandar]

Do you favor abortion on demand or not?For the first two semesters. What we have in Canada right now.

[r1mbaud]

have you ever seen spun? The cook's final words.. potent straightforwardness in the tone of his voice and the words expressed through it.

"tell ya, I remember a time when I was about... I was little, I don't know... 4, 5 something like that. We had this old dog that had a litter of puppies. And I walked in the bathroom one day and my Mother was standing there, kneeling down... Dog had a litter of about 8, and my Mother was bending over killing each one of these little puppies in the bathtub. I remember I said 'why?'... She said 'Im just killing what I can't take care of' - Then my momma said to me, she looked at me and she said 'I wish I could do that to you'. - Maybe she, maybe she shoulda. "
from the cook
-Spun




since nobody has any clue what i was talking about had to clear it up, a bit.

[Hababi]

For the first two semesters. What we have in Canada right now.

So in other words you favor restrictions on abortion.

[Iskandar]

So in other words you favor restrictions on abortion.The only restriction being that you can't have one during the third term.

This is little different from abortion on demand.

Actually, I may just say I favour abortion on demand. Canada's laws are pretty close to it anyway.

[Hababi]

The only restriction being that you can't have one during the third term.

This is little different from abortion on demand.

It's significantly different than abortion on demand. You support something that the radical pro abortion lobby people rigidly oppose.

Also, this says that you believe that somewhere along the line, the baby in the womb gains human status.

[i am the robots]

Or maybe he's asking for an objective argument rather than an irrational appeal to human sentiment?

It's an irrational to feel horrified that people are actually like "lol a fetus isn't even a baby kill the kid!"

So many genetic females take it for granted that they can have kids, and don't even realize how much better it would be to simply put the kids on adoption for those of us who want to be mothers but can't give birth.

[Iskandar]

It's significantly different than abortion on demand. You support something that the radical pro abortion lobby people rigidly oppose.

Also, this says that you believe that somewhere along the line, the baby in the womb gains human status.Fine then. Abortion on demand it is.

It's a human when it's born. Nothing else makes sense to me.

[PerpetualBurn]

So many genetic females take it for granted that they can have kids, and don't even realize how much better it would be to simply put the kids on adoption for those of us who want to be mothers but can't give birth.

That's so disgustingly selfish.

It wouldn't be better for them to go through pregnancy and give up a baby at all.

Much better to kill it at a stage when it lacks all the valuable traits of a human.

[i am the robots]

Yeah, its selfish to want to raise a child that would otherwise be killed by its own mother. Good point.

[Hababi]

Fine then. Abortion on demand it is.

It's a human when it's born. Nothing else makes sense to me.

hmmm so you just completely changed your policy on abortion?

Supporting the slaughter of an eight month old child in the womb is heinous. People who are ok with that are no better than nazis.

[PerpetualBurn]

hmmm so you just completely changed your policy on abortion?

Supporting the slaughter of an eight month old child in the womb is heinous. People who are ok with that are no better than nazis.

Straight for the ad hominem. You can surely do better than that.

[i am the robots]

Good job at ignoring my post.

[Illmatic]

It's an irrational to feel horrified that people are actually like "lol a fetus isn't even a baby kill the kid!"

So many genetic females take it for granted that they can have kids, and don't even realize how much better it would be to simply put the kids on adoption for those of us who want to be mothers but can't give birth.

well there's already plenty of kids out there who need a home. what are you waiting for.

and leave it to a teenage boy to talk about how great pregnancy and childbirth are.

Supporting the slaughter of an eight month old child in the womb is heinous. People who are ok with that are no better than nazis.

that's pretty pathetic steve.

[i am the robots]

im not adopting until i have guy im settled down with and were completely stable

edit: ray what the hell does my birth gender have to do with anything of me feeling the way i feel?

[Hababi]

well there's already plenty of kids out there who need a home. what are you waiting for.

and leave it to a teenage boy to talk about how great pregnancy and childbirth are.

Ray you of all people should not be pro choice. At least not totally. After all, the founder of Planned Parenthood was a proponent of eugenics who wanted poor minorities to stop breeding and figured that getting them to abort their children would solve things.


that's pretty pathetic steve.


Aborting a child who would live if birthed is pathetic. And morally reprehensible.

[Iskandar]

hmmm so you just completely changed your policy on abortion?No, I clarified it. Stfu.
Supporting the slaughter of an eight month old child in the womb is heinous. People who are ok with that are no better than nazis.Thank you for notifying me of this. Sieg Heil!
Aborting a child who would live if birthed is pathetic. And morally reprehensible.According to your morals.

[r1mbaud]

Good job at ignoring my post.
accept it. I do.

[i am the robots]

Aborting a child who would live if birthed is pathetic. And morally reprehensible.

agreed, thorougly

[PerpetualBurn]

Yeah, its selfish to want to raise a child that would otherwise be killed by its own mother. Good point.

Yes it is.

You're putting your own personal desire above the welfare of another person.

All because of a foetus which lacks essential traits of what we think of as a child.

im not adopting until i have guy im settled down with and were completely stable

edit: ray what the hell does my birth gender have to do with anything of me feeling the way i feel?

Because you're acting like a silly little woman that goes weak at the knees when she thinks of tiny clothes. Now belt up and be objective.

[Illmatic]

Ray you of all people should not be pro choice. At least not totally. After all, the founder of Planned Parenthood was a proponent of eugenics who wanted poor minorities to stop breeding and figured that getting them to abort their children would solve things.



why should that affect how I feel about abortion?

Aborting a child who would live if birthed is pathetic. And morally reprehensible.

yeah but do you need to compare everything to nazis?

[Hababi]

No, I clarified it. Stfu.

You said that you don't support abortion on demand, that you support restricting it to the first two trimesters. Then you said you support AoD. Which is it? Do you support slaughtering viable children or not?

According to your morals.

Yeah and according to my morals, what Hitler did was wrong. Morals. You either have them or you don't. If you support abortion on demand in the third trimester, you don't have them. No, that doesn't mean that you want to kill Jews. But it shows a basic disrespect for human life.

[Iskandar]

Death can be a mercy.

Haven't these people ever read Harry Potter
You said that you don't support abortion on demand, that you support restricting it to the first two trimesters. Then you said you support AoD. Which is it? Do you support slaughtering viable children or not?Stop using loaded words like "slaughtering" or shut up.
Morals. You either have them or you don't. If you support abortion on demand in the third trimester, you don't have them.Thank you for informing me that I do not have morals.

I find your morals questionable as well.

[Hababi]

why should that affect how I feel about abortion?

Because if it wasn't for people pushing to leverage minorities to not reproduce, we wouldn't have abortion on demand.



yeah but do you need to compare everything to nazis?

I've tried to cut back my Nazi comparisons as of late :p

[r1mbaud]

Death can be a mercy.

Haven't these people ever read Harry Potter

OR SEEN SPUN!? grr...:angry:

[Iskandar]

You've compared me to Nazis twice in the past fifteen minutes, so no you haven't.

[PerpetualBurn]

The Nazis would've disagreed with me.

Steve disagrees with me.

You see what I'm getting at?

[i am the robots]

Yes it is.

You're putting your own personal desire above the welfare of another person.

The welfare of another person who maybe should've gone on birth control if they wanted to have unprotected sex.

And unwanted pregnancy these days is so inexcusable.
Because you're acting like a silly little woman that goes weak at the knees when she thinks of tiny clothes. Now belt up and be objective.
No, it's human life we're talking about.

[Hababi]

Stop using loaded words like "slaughtering" or shut up.


Do you know what abortion actually does? It constitutes slaughter.


Thank you for informing me that I do not have morals.


So that means you support abortion demand for an eight month old child in the womb?

[Iskandar]

The Nazis did not allow gay marriage.

Steve doesn't want to allow gay marriage.

Steve is no better than a Nazi.
Do you know what abortion actually does? It constitutes slaughter.It kills the fetus. "Slaughter" is not the medical term for this.
So that means you support abortion demand for an eight month old child in the womb?Now that I think of it, I do.
The welfare of another person who maybe should've gone on birth control if they wanted to have unprotected sex.Nobody makes mistakes. Unplanned pregnancies never happen. Birth control is foolproof.

[1338 h4x0r]

Reductio Ad Nazium arguments are really lame, period

[Hababi]

The Nazis did not allow gay marriage.

Steve doesn't want to allow gay marriage.

Steve is no better than a Nazi.

The violation of human life was the supreme atrocity of the Nazi regime. And the murder of a child eight months in the womb is a violation of human life.

[Hababi]

Now that I think of it, I do.


Why?

[Illmatic]

Because if it wasn't for people pushing to leverage minorities to not reproduce, we wouldn't have abortion on demand.

why should I base my opinion of abortion on the politics of the founders of a pro-choice lobbyist group? that would just be stupid.

[PerpetualBurn]

The welfare of another person who maybe should've gone on birth control if they wanted to have unprotected sex.

And unwanted pregnancy these days is so inexcusable.

Contraceptives fail, you mong.

No, it's human life we're talking about.

Not in any way that means we shouldn't kill it.

You should get back to the kitchen or something. You really aren't good at the whole objective thing.

[Iskandar]

Why?Doesn't seem any different from aborting at 5 months.
The violation of human life was the supreme atrocity of the Nazi regime. And the murder of a child eight months in the womb is a violation of human life.Is it still murder at 3 months?

Is it murder the morning after?

[Illmatic]

The welfare of another person who maybe should've gone on birth control if they wanted to have unprotected sex.

And unwanted pregnancy these days is so inexcusable.

considering the sad sad state of sex education in this country I have to disagree with this.

[Hababi]

Doesn't seem any different from aborting at 5 months.

A child at eight months has a functioning brain, heart, and nervous system. It will survive outside the womb. Its termination is homicide, more specifically infanticide.

Is it still murder at 3 months?

Is it murder the morning after?

I believe that it is, but I can at least understand arguments for the morning after pill.

[i am the robots]

considering the sad sad state of sex education in this country I have to disagree with this.
I don't know about the nation as a whole, but in the state of Pennsylvania, they thoroughly emphasize sex education, 1338-h4xx0r can vouch for me on this as well, we went to the same school.
Contraceptives fail, you mong.
I said birth control, you know, the pill!

[Iskandar]

I said birth control, you know, the pill!The pill is a contraceptive.

You're an idiot.

[lfantwister]

I believe that it is, but I can at least understand arguments for the morning after pill.
Steve, at least stick to your convictions! Abortion is murder, or it's birth control. You can't pick an arbitrary point at about 3 months when you somehow declare that a fetus "is alive and human."

[Illmatic]

I don't know about the nation as a whole, but in the state of Pennsylvania, they thoroughly emphasize sex education, 1338-h4xx0r can vouch for me on this as well, we went to the same school.


well it's not nearly as good in other parts of the country. remember that the idea of an "abstinence-only" sex education is actually taken somewhat seriously and that should give you enough info.

Steve: not going to answer my question?

[PerpetualBurn]

I said birth control, you know, the pill!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Hababi]

Steve, at least stick to your convictions! Abortion is murder, or it's birth control. You can't pick an arbitrary point at about 3 months when you somehow declare that a fetus "is alive and human."

I'm moreso going with where the American opinion lies. A majority of Americans support these restrictions.

[1338 h4x0r]

I don't know about the nation as a whole, but in the state of Pennsylvania, they thoroughly emphasize sex education, 1338-h4xx0r can vouch for me on this as well, we went to the same school.

Sorry, dude, I ignored everything Squirrel Carper said. I don't know.

[Hababi]

why should I base my opinion of abortion on the politics of the founders of a pro-choice lobbyist group? that would just be stupid.

It should say something about the mindset behind it.

[Iskandar]

I'm moreso going with where the American opinion lies. A majority of Americans support these restrictions.The opinion of a majority of Americans means jack **** here.

[Hababi]

The opinion of a majority of Americans means jack **** here.

No this is about your ostensible support for infanticide.

[lfantwister]

The opinion of a majority of Americans means jack **** here.
agreed. majority rule=/=truth