I wish Ron Paul wasn't in the debates

[Smokey D]

Well I am no economist or anything. All I can do is use whatever common sense God gave me. So I look at this graph released by I forget who, and it showed the price over the years of oil in 3 currencies, those being the dollar, the euro, and gold. What I saw was the price sky rocketed around the, again I forget what year since I don't have it in front of me. It went up the most in dollars, and a little less in euros. In gold however, the price has stayed the same, even as we see it 100$ a barrel. That, to me, is empirical evidence that the problem isn't things getting more expensive, exactly, but that the dollar is losing its value at an alarming rate.

Conversion of gold to oil remains quite stable, but the problem is that gold is worth far more than the dollar it backs. This is why the gold standard was given up in the 70s.



Its true, that currently, there would not be enough gold to back the dollar. But that is the simple price we pay for, basically, having too many dollars. Are you insinuating, basically, that we have come to far to turn back now, as far as the currency goes?

No, I'm talking about the sheer value and output of the US economy.

[Against Miik!]

Well, again, I am no economist, so I don't pretend to be an expert. But if that is what you mean, then would that not be a sign that the US has grown to a point beyond sustainability? I mean, I in know way believe that a country should be in continuous. Thats how superpowers eventually fall.

I dunno. All I see is a massive deflation of our currency and a loss of purchasing power, that much you cannot dispute. Sure things go in cycles, a bit, but the overall trend for our currency is down. The Fed hasn't stabilized the currency since its inception, and I don't see it starting to now. I'm just thinking we might need to start taking things in a different direction in order to succeed as a nation.

[gregulus]

I know next to nothing about the gold standard and this may make me look really stupid, but wouldn't a drop in the influx of gold make the value of the dollar drop even more. Even then, where would we get gold from? Also, why did the amount of gold/barrel of oil remain consistent in the aforementioned study.

Sorry for my ignorance.

[Futue te Ipsum]

I also like the quote from your link. "I think it's important that we dig a bit deeper and learn more about exactly who, and what, he is: a vicious, contemptible racist" Sorry, but that made me laugh, considering the only vicious and contemptible people are the neo-cons. I never even heard of such blatantly slanderous allegations against Ron PaulIt's not slander.

[Against Miik!]

I know next to nothing about the gold standard and this may make me look really stupid, but wouldn't a drop in the influx of gold make the value of the dollar drop even more. Even then, where would we get gold from? Also, why did the amount of gold/barrel of oil remain consistent in the aforementioned study.

Sorry for my ignorance.

I'm guessing its because gold is a stable currency and the price of oil hasn't actually gone up. Might be wrong though.

[Kage]

That's what Ron Paul says.

[Smokey D]

Well, again, I am no economist, so I don't pretend to be an expert. But if that is what you mean, then would that not be a sign that the US has grown to a point beyond sustainability? I mean, I in know way believe that a country should be in continuous. Thats how superpowers eventually fall.

No, I mean that the US economy has grown beyond a point where it can realistically be backed by gold and is now, somewhat tautologically, backed by the value of its own output. But the important bit is that the real value of the US economy IS NOT measured in dollar terms, it is measured in output. Dollars now represent the value of participating in the economy, not the value of a commodity.

And I really don't see why gold (essentially a useless metal) is any more or less arbitrary than fiat currency.

I dunno. All I see is a massive deflation of our currency and a loss of purchasing power, that much you cannot dispute. Sure things go in cycles, a bit, but the overall trend for our currency is down. The Fed hasn't stabilized the currency since its inception, and I don't see it starting to now. I'm just thinking we might need to start taking things in a different direction in order to succeed as a nation.

But your purchasing power has increased since the dollar was floated. The currency doesn't need to keep stable as long as it keeps up with wages and output etc. It shouldn't be measured relative to gold, economic growth.

[Amit]

gold is extremely useful when it comes to nanotech fabrication, smokey d!

you should know

it's what keeps all of your processors running!

[Eliminator]

my testicles are solid gold and if y'all are sayin that this country shouldnt be run on some solid shiny testes then you can **** off okay

[Amit]

flap flap flap

[Hababi]

gold is extremely useful when it comes to nanotech fabrication, smokey d!

you should know

it's what keeps all of your processors running!

we need Peak Gold theory

[Amit]

unless technological advancement comes to the point where computers running on nanoprocessors can figure out how to produce more gold to produce more nanoprocessors with zomgs!

[Smokey D]

gold is extremely useful when it comes to nanotech fabrication, smokey d!

you should know

it's what keeps all of your processors running!

Yeah, but that doesn't make it worth $900+ an ounce.

we need Peak Gold theory

Actually, the insights of peak oil apply to all non-renewable commodities.

[Amit]

honey, you're selling yourself short <3

[McP3000]

They have a lot in common, actually. Both are liberal and strongly anti-war. They share a common enemy in the neo-cons. They simply disagree on economics.
I know. Its quite crazy how similar they are.

Not as crazy as Kucinich's economic policies though.

[Iskandar]

I know. Its quite crazy how similar they are.

Not as crazy as Kucinich's economic policies though.Yeah um abandoning NAFTA is crazy but leaving the UN? Nah.

[McP3000]

Yeah um abandoning NAFTA is crazy but leaving the UN? Nah.
Leaving the UN isn't economic :confused:

and he would never be able to do it anyway. He is just showing that he dislikes the illegitimacy of the UN.

*wikis NAFTA

[Iskandar]

Leaving the UN isn't economic :confused:

and he would never be able to do it anyway. He is just showing that he dislikes the illegitimacy of the UN.

*wikis NAFTAFine, then. Abolishing the Fed.

Also, explain to me how the UN is illegitimate.

[McP3000]

Fine, then. Abolishing the Fed.

Also, explain to me how the UN is illegitimate.
SHHHHHH YOUR MAKING ME LOOK BAD K?


Edit: Another thing to rally Libertarians, but he would never be able to do on his own.

[Iskandar]

SHHHHHH YOUR MAKING ME LOOK BAD K?Not my fault you're a right-winger.

Anything government ever does is inherently bad and restricts freedom. Nothing government does can ever have a positive effect and provide freedom, ignoring the fact that government is what ensures our freedom in the first place.

You got all that? Good.

[Hababi]

Yeah um abandoning NAFTA is crazy but leaving the UN? Nah.

how is nafta crazy?

[Iskandar]

how is nafta crazy?Never said it was. But wanting to pull out from it isn't crazy, not compared to leaving the UN. It's just a trade agreement.

[Hababi]

Never said it was.

ok


Hillary wins New Hampshire. How stupid are New Hampshire democrats?

[Smokey D]

I laugh at ITV, who were making it out like Obama was now invincible and had already won the candidacy.

[Hababi]

I laugh at ITV, who were making it out like Obama was now invincible and had already won the candidacy.

That was the CW.

That being said, Obama should still win South Carolina. But Hillary's going to win the uncontested Michigan primary, and possibly Florida.

I dread the potential of a Clinton presidency.

[Smokey D]

Meh, I don't think she'd be too bad. You just hate women.

[gregulus]

Meh, I don't think she'd be too bad. You just hate women.

I laughed.

[Hababi]

Meh, I don't think she'd be too bad. You just hate women.

There are a few women who I think would make wonderful candidates. Hillary's not one of them. She's the female, Democrat version of Richard Nixon (more like Nixon and Bush, rolled into one). Maybe the meanness, pettiness, vendictiveness, and opportunism of her public career doesn't play out internationally :(

[Smokey D]

I think most of that is much more a reflection of the successful character assassination perpetrated on her during the 90s after she tried to reform healthcare. Well, at least partly anyway.

[McP3000]

What were the republican percentages?

[Hababi]

I think most of that is much more a reflection of the successful character assassination perpetrated on her during the 90s after she tried to reform healthcare. Well, at least partly anyway.

Honestly I don't buy into most of the stuff that's said about her. Eg Hillary's a communist, Hillary's this Hillary's that. But Time magazine just did a story on her, detailing, in part, what a hotheaded, unpleasant person she is, and the New Republic has covered the arrogance and rancor of her crew, in relation with the press.

And Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton just makes me sick to my stomach.

[Smokey D]

That last bit I can agree with.

But I don't necessarily think Clinton is herself a bad candidate. Would she make a good veep? I reckon she'd be alright, since she's all about policy and ideas and less about personality. Kinda like Cheney but less evil and poised to die of a heart attack.

[Illmatic]

ok


Hillary wins New Hampshire. How stupid are New Hampshire democrats?

pretty funny that the "Live Free or Die" state would go for big-government types like her and McCain.

Ron Paul got less tan 10% in a pretty libertarian state. should he just give it up at this point?

[Det_Nosnip]

Ron Paul is mostly called a racist b/c he's accepted campaign donations from neo-Nazis TBH.

[Valhall]

Ron Paul is mostly called a racist b/c he's accepted campaign donations from neo-Nazis TBH.

Did he knowingly do this? Or was it something that happened and he was just informed of it after the fact by his campaign coordinators or whatever they're called?

[ringworm]

how is nafta crazy?
couldnt it be the reason why the US looses job after job and company after company and manufacturing plant after manufacturing plant?

my states textile industry has been obliterated by companies that had no choice but to close all plants and move to Mexico due to nafta and greed

[Danger Bird]

Ron Paul is mostly called a racist b/c he's accepted campaign donations from neo-Nazis TBH.

Plus those newsletters he put out in the 90s

[Against Miik!]

Did he knowingly do this? Or was it something that happened and he was just informed of it after the fact by his campaign coordinators or whatever they're called?

Its not like he went to the guys house and he handed Ron a 500$ check and they shook hands and had a drink and chatted or anything. It was something discovered after the fact, and I think it was blown way out of proportion. If a neo nazi gave me 500$ I would probably take it, because I need money. Doesn't make me a racist. The only reason people give back campaign contributions is because it looks good. There are no moral implications at all.

[gmoneyguy]

Its not like he went to the guys house and he handed Ron a 500$ check and they shook hands and had a drink and chatted or anything. It was something discovered after the fact, and I think it was blown way out of proportion. If a neo nazi gave me 500$ I would probably take it, because I need money. Doesn't make me a racist. The only reason people give back campaign contributions is because it looks good. There are no moral implications at all.

As much as I don't like RP, I agree.

[Hababi]

couldnt it be the reason why the US looses job after job and company after company and manufacturing plant after manufacturing plant?

my states textile industry has been obliterated by companies that had no choice but to close all plants and move to Mexico due to nafta and greed

A lot of manufacturing didn't go to Mexico, but rather has gone to southeast Asian nations, eg Cambodia.

Nafta hasn't been a benefit for labor unions or workers in that industry, which is why they hate it, but I think that free trade is still better for the nation at large. It benefits those countries with a competitive advantage, and helps us concentrate on areas with our competitive advantage.

[Iskandar]

A lot of manufacturing didn't go to Mexico, but rather has gone to southeast Asian nations, eg Cambodia.

Nafta hasn't been a benefit for labor unions or workers in that industry, which is why they hate it, but I think that free trade is still better for the nation at large. It benefits those countries with a competitive advantage, and helps us concentrate on areas with our competitive advantage.What about fair trade?

[Hababi]

What about fair trade?

Fair trade is harmful to the nation. All it does is cause protectionist policies from other countries, which drives up the price of everything. So, maybe you keep some labor jobs in the states, but at diminished wages, and with imports costing more. It can be a bitter pill to swallow, but the more you try to artificially engineer international trade relations, the worse it's going to get.

[Iskandar]

Fair trade is harmful to the nation. All it does is cause protectionist policies from other countries, which drives up the price of everything. So, maybe you keep some labor jobs in the states, but at diminished wages, and with imports costing more. It can be a bitter pill to swallow, but the more you try to artificially engineer international trade relations, the worse it's going to get.What's your empirical basis for stating this?

[Hababi]

What's your empirical basis for stating this?

Well, amongst other things, the tariff that was passed under the Taft administration. Hawley-Smoot or something, I forget the precise name of it, but it was very harmful and contributed to the Great Depression.

Remember, I'm a complete economic pragmatist. Whatever works best is what I'm for, and unfortunately, fair trade just doesn't work best, for our nations or others.

[Iskandar]

Well, amongst other things, the tariff that was passed under the Taft administration. Hawley-Smoot or something, I forget the precise name of it, but it was very harmful and contributed to the Great Depression.Tariffs are a protectionist measure. Fair trade is distinct from protectionism.

I'm not really a fan of protectionism where it's not necessary.

[Hababi]

Tariffs are a protectionist measure. Fair trade is distinct from protectionism.

I'm not really a fan of protectionism where it's not necessary.

Well what policies are you speaking of, specifically? There are certain things that I think are beneficial--Clinton tied textile imports from Cambodia to conditions of workers there, and it helped the workers and the nation at large.

[gmoneyguy]

Cambodian workers and Cambodia?

[Hababi]

Cambodian workers and Cambodia?

yes. I suppose in that case it's redundant, since they're close to a single-industry nation (and a very poor one), but in most cases, it's not.

[Iskandar]

Fair trade is intervention that's designed not to restrict trade (which is what protectionism is) but to deliver benefits to those further down the line. Look at how exploited coffee growers are, for example. Fair trade would aim to increase their share of the profits from trade.

I'm not really a fan of protectionism. I think it's an often well-intentioned but generally ineffective way to achieve certain economic goals. But it does have some uses, such as sheltering fledgling industries.

[gmoneyguy]

yes. I suppose in that case it's redundant, since they're close to a single-industry nation (and a very poor one), but in most cases, it's not.

yeah, I was a little confused to what the pronouns where referring to.

[Hababi]

Look at how exploited coffee growers are, for example. Fair trade would aim to increase their share of the profits from trade.

They really need to take the initiative there in cutting out the middle men. I saw a documentary in my history of Africa class, Black Gold, which dealt with the Ethiopian coffee trade and was pro fair trade. Obviously it'd be better if the localized presences had greater control and income, but I don't see where our role comes in. I mean, if there's enough support, then some people should organize a multi-national to break the monopoly of four or five coffee importers, and give the workers a decent share. But that'd be a natural market solution.

[Iskandar]

They really need to take the initiative there in cutting out the middle men. I saw a d0cumentary in my history of Africa class, Black Gold, which dealt with the Ethiopian coffee trade and was pro fair trade. Obviously it'd be better if the localized presences had greater control and income, but I don't see where our role comes in. I mean, if there's enough support, then some people should organize a multi-national to break the monopoly of four or five coffee importers, and give the workers a decent share. But that'd be a natural market solution.I've seen Black Gold too.

Fair trade isn't necessarily associated with the government. The fair trade movement often operates without government support at all. You can choose to buy fair trade products, and many cafes sell or have switched completely to fair trade coffee (including a couple in my town). It's usually more expensive, but it does help out the producers a lot.

[Hababi]

I've seen Black Gold too.

Fair trade isn't necessarily associated with the government. The fair trade movement often operates without government support at all. You can choose to buy fair trade products, and many cafes sell or have switched completely to fair trade coffee (including a couple in my town). It's usually more expensive, but it does help out the producers a lot.

Yeah I've seen a few fair trade coffees at my favorite coffee joint. Unfortunately they're not my favorite kind, so I don't get them :p

I don't see why anyone would object to that notion, really...

[gmoneyguy]

there's some coffee company that advertises in gmail that carries a line of free trade coffee.

[Iskandar]

Yeah I've seen a few fair trade coffees at my favorite coffee joint. Unfortunately they're not my favorite kind, so I don't get them :p

I don't see why anyone would object to that notion, really...Yeah. Well, if I have a choice between regular and fair trade goods, obviously I'd go for it, provided the quality is the same and the price isn't outrageous.

It's about helping the producers of the most exploited industries, coffee being one, cocoa being another I think.

[Hababi]

Yeah. Well, if I have a choice between regular and fair trade goods, obviously I'd go for it, provided the quality is the same and the price isn't outrageous.

I'm still going to go for what tastes best :p

Unfortunately, much of this fair trade stuff is more for the fairly well off, because the stuff is out of the price range for working class people.

[Iskandar]

I'm still going to go for what tastes best :p

Unfortunately, much of this fair trade stuff is more for the fairly well off, because the stuff is out of the price range for working class people.I'm not rich, dude. Both of my parents are working-class.

It can be expensive, but not always. Sometimes it's cheaper.

[Against Miik!]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=I-16u9x3tfE

Apparently I'm not the only one who recognizes a upcoming economic crisis. Watch a little bit into the video. There is an interview. Glenn Beck is an idiot, so watch that about 4 minutes in.

[Valhall]

I dunno about Glenn Beck being an idiot, but it seems to be the mentality of everyone on the forums that anybody remotely conservative is a racist, facist moron, so I'll stay outta this one....

[ringworm]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=I-16u9x3tfE

Apparently I'm not the only one who recognizes a upcoming economic crisis. Watch a little bit into the video. There is an interview. Glenn Beck is an idiot, so watch that about 4 minutes in.
i like glenn, most of the time, he talks about issues most others deem not important, or not good for ratings, allthough they are extremely important for the average american to know about, just like that video, you'll never see it on mainstream outlets or the 6:00 news, and you'll never see politicians address it

its frightening how everything functions, IF you can call our gvnt functional at all