Ergonomics

[Aaron]

Thought I'd give you guys some information based on my experience in the field of workplace injury management.

Ergonomics uses science to minimise fatigue on people in workplace and leisure activities for the purpose of avoiding injury and increasing productivity. It's based around economy of movement and physiology. Ergonomics is not a "preference" thing; it is science. People's bodies are all individual however science is concrete and certain things should always be adhered to.

Although you may visualise your most comfortable setup to be low-flat toms and high cymbals, realistically they're the opposite of ergonomic and you need to realise that if you want to avoid injury. Visualisation is something that should be avoided in lieu of experimentation. Although you see something to be comfortable, that will always be based on things external to your body [ie a magazine cover with a nice setup]. The best way to find out an ergonomically-correct setup is to break down your kit and place things in relation to how your arms and legs move not how you play naturally.

Many people play in unnatural positions and have developed habits that are causing injury, although most probably they are asymptomatic in the most part. The longer you play using movements that are unnatural, the more long term damage you'll be doing to yourself.

This is a huge topic, and I am happy to bring home some information from work, however I won't be able to discuss the particulars of everything here. However if you need assistance with something specific, I am happy to chat on MSN. [For the record I am qualified by NSW WorkCover for RTW Programs].

Hope I've been of help!

[ace76543]

i'm learning about this in business class O_O

[Berk]

hardly anyone has "high cymbals" anymore imo, usually just a higher than normal ride.

[Fuzzy]

^ Fail.

Read: Most popular scene/emo bands, some indie bands, some hardcore.

[mullets suk]

is there some description of how people should place there cymbals and drums? (Pics be cool)

[Aaron]

It's based on how your body is shaped. If you're over-reaching to hit a crash, whether it's too high or too far away, then it's in the wrong place. Same with floor-toms if you have to reach right around, or a tom is too low and your tilting your shoulders forward. Ideally your core [chest] should not be moving.

Personally, I place all my cymbals in an arc so that they flow when my arm is extended about 60% out in all directions. My toms I have so that I don't have to move my core [chest] at all when I play.

Here's how I have the main cymbals for my kit setup:

http://a641.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/7/l_d7e76d50b7bd60aceb57ff8226f83c38.jpg

[maniac0796]

Wow.

To use Ergonomics in a general sense, you need to have access to Anthropometrics etc etc.

But I can see where Aaron is going here with the "Set it up to where your limbs are".

When I set up my kit, I do my throne, sit on it, and put my feet on the ground in their natural position. Then I put a little marker down, and thats where my bass drum pedals go. Obviously snare drum goes in between the legs at about an inch above leg level.

Then it's building up from there.

[Seafroggys]

When I first setup my drums when I first bought them, I set them up with ergonomics #1 in my mind. I then taped up everything, and have been playing with the exact same setup. It works beautifully.

[Carn]

When I set up my kit, I do my throne, sit on it, and put my feet on the ground in their natural position. Then I put a little marker down, and thats where my bass drum pedals go. Obviously snare drum goes in between the legs at about an inch above leg level.

That, and the rest of my kit can be reached while I keep my elbows to my body; which is pretty much good enough for me. I think posture & technique have more effect on your body than than the actual layout of your kit.

[mullets suk]

tomarrow ill check my kit out. its to late now to play.

thanks a lot
rep'd

edit:must spread.

[Aaron]

That, and the rest of my kit can be reached while I keep my elbows to my body; which is pretty much good enough for me.
That's what I aim for.

I think posture & technique have more effect on your body than than the actual layout of your kit.
Your setup effects your posture greatly though. In your case less so as you've got a sensibly layout for your kit, however if you had a strange setup it'd cause you to develop bad habits [postures].

[SgtPrimus]

On Billy Ward's big time DVD he goes over how to set up your kit Ergonomically.

[Drum Phil]

This is why ive started using smaller toms. I can get them into a comfy position without them spreading out too far on my right side.

[Retarded Chipple]

Same with floor-toms if you have to reach right around, or a tom is too low and your tilting your shoulders forward. Ideally your core [chest] should not be moving...
...My toms I have so that I don't have to move my core [chest] at all when I play.

Are you saying people like Mike Portnoy and Neil Peart aren't playing egonomic kits?

[Panopticon]

^ Fail.

Read: Most popular scene/emo bands, some indie bands, some hardcore.

No, one thing i've noticed is that they are high in comparison to their rack/floor toms which happen to be very low.

If you look in the thread where that guy got his epiarch kit, his cymbals look high, but in reality, everything is below his belly button.

[crazyguy832]

etp2, he's not emo, he plays prog rock.

:chug:

There are still some stupid high cymbals out there, man. It's ridiculous on some kits.

Everything on my kit's nice and comfy, partiall because I sit high.

^_^

[Panopticon]

thats one example.

while there are SOME stupidly high cymbals out there...it's dumb to say all emo kits have cymbals in the sky simply because they don't.

[Drum Phil]

True dat

[Ill Mitch]

I agree with everything that Aaron has been saying.

A good way to set up your kit:

Set up your throne first. Then, with each individual piece: 1) Close your eyes. 2) Physically pretend like like you're hitting the piece you are about to set up by playing a stroke without anything set up. 3) Open your eyes. Where you end up is where you should set up that piece of your kit.

I used this method to set up my entire kit, and now it's as comfortable as it's ever been.

[Retarded Chipple]

1) Close your eyes. 2) Physically pretend like like you're hitting the piece you are about to set up by playing a stroke without anything set up. 3) Open your eyes. Where you end up is where you should set up that piece of your kit.


Do you not think though that your previous/current set-up would affect the way you'd play when you have your eyes closed?


Like if you had one of those kits with high flat cymbals and low flat toms, you'd "air-drum" as though you were playing that kit still.....

[Ill Mitch]

Do you not think though that your previous/current set-up would affect the way you'd play when you have your eyes closed?


Like if you had one of those kits with high flat cymbals and low flat toms, you'd "air-drum" as though you were playing that kit....

Perhaps. But if you're sitting comfortably on your throne, it would be quite a stretch to reach flat toms and high cymbals. The idea behind closing your eyes is that you don't think about how your set up will look, only how it feels. I think the majority of the kits today are set up for aesthetics and not ergonomics.

[PandaDrummer]

ok guys i made a picture to show what is "ergonomic" and what is not.
grey is "ergonomic" and red is obviously not.
what do you think.
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/corsicatx/ergonomics-1.png
that any better?

[Retarded Chipple]

I think it doesn't look anything like a drum kit....

[Killroy]

Panada i dislike your ergonomics picture, mainly for the snare. generally i see the snare tilted towards the throne than away from it, if it isnt even level. mind you, i seen a Buddy Rich solo where he had the snare tilted awsay from him... just my 2 cents

[gimp fest]

^yep.

there is nothing unhealthy about a flat snare(no angle) or indeed small angle towards the player.and some of those cymbal angles which are supposedly ok to you, are ridiculous.how is a nearly vertical cymbal ergonomic?

[Panopticon]

and how is a flat cymbal not ergonomic.

[maniac0796]

Because unless it's very low, you have to like, reach over the top of it to hit it correctly and not damage it.

If it's low, then it's okay. But if it were higher up, you'd be damaging the cymbal by playing ergonomically.

[ace76543]

^yep.

there is nothing unhealthy about a flat snare(no angle) or indeed small angle towards the player.and some of those cymbal angles which are supposedly ok to you, are ridiculous.how is a nearly vertical cymbal ergonomic?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/rancid_punk/IMG_6477-01.jpg

[Drum Phil]

How did my kit come into this?

[ace76543]

high, almost vertical cymbals. just needed an example

[Aaron]

and how is a flat cymbal not ergonomic.
Dependent on height it is not. If you're not naturally doing a glancing hit though, then it's too high.

[Drum Phil]

Not all of us use that technique though.

Some use the flick and pull back technique.

[Parradiddle Pete]

I used this method to set up my entire kit, and now it's as comfortable as it's ever been.

Does that mean that it's no more comfortable than before?

Or do you mean it's more comfortable than it's ever been?


My setup all feels fine, apart from the ride is a bit of a mission away, i have my arm almost fully extended to play it but if i move it any closer its in the way of everything esle

[crazyguy832]

^^^
123 (Phil)

Flat snare's the most comfortable for me, too. Having any other angle is unreasonable, imo.

My cymbals are flat or slightly angled, dependant on height. Nothing wrong with low, flat cymbals.

[Parradiddle Pete]

Panada i dislike your ergonomics picture, mainly for the snare. generally i see the snare tilted towards the throne than away from it, if it isnt even level. mind you, i seen a Buddy Rich solo where he had the snare tilted awsay from him... just my 2 cents

A lot of people who play traditional grip tilt there snares away from them so they can rimshot more easily ;)

[Panopticon]

crazyguy did you just say angled snares are unreasonable?

[MisurCanavi]

A lot of people who play traditional grip tilt there snares away from them so they can rimshot more easily ;)

Beat me to it. Thats why you see all the old jazz guys doing it, if any of you know what jazz is :smash: .

Now all of you that say your set ups are super efficient and are bitching at others, just post a sound file of you playing, I personally don't take advice on kitsetup/playing style from people who I don't think can play their way out of a paper bag. So if you can post a killer clip, or show some scientific studies (I like that image that someone posted earlier) your opinion isn't backed.

Have a nice day.

[Panopticon]

http://media.putfile.com/Double-ride-groove
http://media.putfile.com/UFIP-ride-demo
http://media.putfile.com/MX-recording---Demo
http://media.putfile.com/Opeth---Demon-of-the-Fall-Drum-Cover
http://media.putfile.com/Opeth---Bleak-Drum-Cover
http://media.putfile.com/Fall-of-the-Archangel---First-song
http://media.putfile.com/Pantera---Im-Broken-Drum-cover
http://media.putfile.com/Atomship---Withered-Drum-cover-64
http://media.putfile.com/As-I-Am-drum-cover
http://media.putfile.com/Double-Bass-Improv---July-2007
http://media.putfile.com/Drum-Improv---July-07
http://media.putfile.com/Song-to-Break-The-Silence-Music-Video
http://media.putfile.com/Metal---Music-assignment

should i stop there?

nah not yet...

http://www.myspace.com/eclipsetheworld

now im done:)

[Carn]

Your setup effects your posture greatly though. In your case less so as you've got a sensibly layout for your kit, however if you had a strange setup it'd cause you to develop bad habits [postures].

Sitting straight has nothing to do with your setup. And there is a difference with a 'strange' setup and having an 'unhealthy' setup. There are more than enough (professional) drummers out there who have 'stange' setups pure for the fact that they LIKE it that way. There is 0% wrong with having high cymbals if you think that that position adds to your playing.

example: The drummer for the Dutch band Blof actually has his cymbals very high; so he can see the crowd better (and vice versa). And this guy has a degree in percussion.

[crazyguy832]

crazyguy did you just say angled snares are unreasonable?
For me.

:smash:

[PandaDrummer]

Panada i dislike your ergonomics picture, mainly for the snare. generally i see the snare tilted towards the throne than away from it, if it isnt even level. mind you, i seen a Buddy Rich solo where he had the snare tilted awsay from him... just my 2 cents
so if a popular guy uses it it makes it ergonomic?
^yep.

there is nothing unhealthy about a flat snare(no angle) or indeed small angle towards the player.and some of those cymbal angles which are supposedly ok to you, are ridiculous.how is a nearly vertical cymbal ergonomic?
but i thought if it was flat it wasnt ergonomic :confused:. im terrible at this. but doesn't danny carrey have his ride practically vertical? i guess he needs to learn ergonomics.
Sitting straight has nothing to do with your setup. And there is a difference with a 'strange' setup and having an 'unhealthy' setup. There are more than enough (professional) drummers out there who have 'stange' setups pure for the fact that they LIKE it that way. There is 0% wrong with having high cymbals if you think that that position adds to your playing.

example: The drummer for the Dutch band Blof actually has his cymbals very high; so he can see the crowd better (and vice versa). And this guy has a degree in percussion.
but if he raises his cymbals to see the crowd then he's doing it for "looks" and therefore is not the definition of ergonomics.


anyone want to continue on this stupid argument? about how it "has" to be a certain way to be ergonomic? I think we already proved it isn't that way, why? because everyone wants different things in a setup, and likes different heights for cymbals,toms,snares,thrones. Ergonomics will be defined by the person playing the kit. personally, i like my snare leaning forward, my floor tom completely flat, and my high tom completely flat.

I drew the picture to get people to talk, and maybe realize how much you have to flip flop to keep up the "limits for ergonomics" way for everyone

[Drum Phil]

Ergonomics are defined by biology, not personality.

Just because you like something flat, doesnt make it healthy.

Danny is 6"4, his ride isnt ergonomic in any way.

[PandaDrummer]

Ergonomics are defined by biology, not personality.

Just because you like something flat, doesnt make it healthy.

Danny is 6"4, his ride isnt ergonomic in any way.
its true that ergonomics are defined by biology but im going to have a different ergonomic setup then danny carrey, or even someone the same height as me if their arms are shorter, or if they hold thier sticks a different way. Yes if your kit is completely wack you can hurt yourself. look ill post a vid of something bad for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6vMrZj_R6Q
i would consider those cymbals to not be ergonomic. he looks uncomfortable playing them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLtjnG2NoHE
that guy^ doesn't look uncomfortable playing his kit. even though its flat.(except for the ride which he later lowered so he could play it as a ride and just not a crash.)

[Drum Phil]

Those were the same video.

You also tend to look quite uncomfortable on yours :-/

[PandaDrummer]

i fixed my vid, i don't think i look that uncomfortable, i just make stupid drumming faces.

[Panopticon]

i dont think panda looks uncomfortable at all.

He looks 100% relaxed and in control.

[Drum Phil]

See, isnt perception fun as well.

[Panopticon]

no but ignorance is.:)

[Parradiddle Pete]

As if someone didn't comment Panda's video saying 'I have a DW Iron Cobra Pedal' lol.

I hope it was one of you guys dicking around :)

xx

[Drum Phil]

no but ignorance is.:)

Ah yes. Im being ignorant.

Clearly.

[PandaDrummer]

As if someone didn't comment Panda's video saying 'I have a DW Iron Cobra Pedal' lol.

I hope it was one of you guys dicking around :)

xx
that vid isn't me, but i remember thinking of how uncomfortable the guy looks, thats why i linked it. im the second vid. :wave:

[Parradiddle Pete]

My bad.

Confundled.

xx

[Panopticon]

Ah yes. Im being ignorant.

Clearly.

note the smiley.

[Drum Phil]

My lord if only i hadnt tested out that setup myself to guage it before mouthing ;)

[Ill Mitch]

Does that mean that it's no more comfortable than before?

Or do you mean it's more comfortable than it's ever been?



Er, the latter.

I think what feels comfortable also heavily depends on your playing style more than anything else. If you play jazz with traditional grip, you'll want your snare angled a certain way so you can rimshot. If you play rock a snare angled that way will seem rediculous. A rock drummer would never set up his kit like a jazz drummer and vice versa.

[TTTSNB]

Not necessarily, that positioning is based far more on grip choice then musical style. Obviously a rock drummer could play trad grip and vice versa.

[Aaron]

Sitting straight has nothing to do with your setup. And there is a difference with a 'strange' setup and having an 'unhealthy' setup. There are more than enough (professional) drummers out there who have 'stange' setups pure for the fact that they LIKE it that way. There is 0% wrong with having high cymbals if you think that that position adds to your playing.

example: The drummer for the Dutch band Blof actually has his cymbals very high; so he can see the crowd better (and vice versa). And this guy has a degree in percussion.

Ergonomics is purely based on whether something is physically appropriate for your body type, shape and physical needs. It's not about feels or preference. It's about physicality.

There is something 100% wrong with setting up you kit and disregarding ergonomics and your body's needs and physical limitations. Why do you think you often read in magazines professional drummers saying "I like my cymbals high, and I know it's bad for me, but that's what I'm used to." It's because they've developed bad habits. Neil Peart has bad habits in playing; he's a professional and phenominal player, but ergonomically speaking his kit is hideous.

Doesn't matter if any drummer has a doctorate in music or a napkin; he's set his kit up unergonomically so he's likely to encounter injury.


i dont think panda looks uncomfortable at all.

He looks 100% relaxed and in control.

We're talking ergonomics, not enjoyment or control. Alot of injuries are sustained when people are in positions they percieve as natural. It only takes a knock though for symptoms to appear.

An Example: I have a client that had a badly set up desk at work for years. It was a matter of seat height which they ignored. They used it for 4 years. When she bent over to pick up a piece of paper off the ground she felt symptoms that severe that she had to have a spinal fusion [where they join two discs in your back together]. This wasn't as a result of the bending, it was the years of working with the same posture where although she felt comfortable, it was doing hidden damage to her back. Same thing can happen to drummers, and does regularly.

[Panopticon]

We're talking ergonomics, not enjoyment or control. Alot of injuries are sustained when people are in positions they percieve as natural. It only takes a knock though for symptoms to appear.

i appreciate what your doing and saying here but my comment there was specifically directed at phil who said panda did not look relaxed/comfortable behind his set.

[Panopticon]

Out of curiosity...would you say my basic setup (basically everthing minus the 8" tom and rotos) is ergonomic?

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u143/enemytopublic2/DSCN0252.jpg

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u143/enemytopublic2/DSCN0251.jpg

Now how about if you include the 8" and rotos?

This is out of pure curiosity, im not trying to prove a point or anything.

[Carn]

Ergonomics is purely based on whether something is physically appropriate for your body type, shape and physical needs. It's not about feels or preference. It's about physicality.

There is something 100% wrong with setting up you kit and disregarding ergonomics and your body's needs and physical limitations. Why do you think you often read in magazines professional drummers saying "I like my cymbals high, and I know it's bad for me, but that's what I'm used to." It's because they've developed bad habits. Neil Peart has bad habits in playing; he's a professional and phenominal player, but ergonomically speaking his kit is hideous.

Doesn't matter if any drummer has a doctorate in music or a napkin; he's set his kit up unergonomically so he's likely to encounter injury.

So, what is your point? If one can achieve his goals with his desired setup and not have any physical issues while playing one can do what he wants imho.

But if something is bad, it needs to be changed. Drummers who have crazy setups and play with pain are idiots anyways, and I'm not referring to those kind of players. If you want to debate ergonomics, I think it's better to not play the drums since all kind of things could happen.

I've had back problems myself through work related issues (and got treatments for it); sitting in a wrong position does more damage to your back than moving heavy furniture; in the end I think good posture and technique are more important than the height of your cymbals or the angle of your toms (ofcourse, not reffering to extremes here).

[Aaron]

..and you don't see a link between the two?!

[Carn]

well, I believe that people have common sense and set up their kits in a way that it feels correct and nice.

[Aaron]

Really? Haha. You'd think so wouldn't you, but with all things, people make decisions based on preference rather than medical evidence and logic.

[Fuzzy]

I just set my kit up based on how comfy it is to me. Everything else is an afterthought really. I'm not going to go traipsing about, setting my kit up with a medical book in one hand and a ride stand in the other.

[Aaron]

What I was discussing with this thread fuzzy is whether that comfortable position is actually good for you or not.

[Carn]

Really? Haha. You'd think so wouldn't you, but with all things, people make decisions based on preference rather than medical evidence and logic.

I'm not debating that. I'm not trying to argue AGAINST the fact that ergonomics are important.

Doesn't matter if any drummer has a doctorate in music or a napkin;

And yes, that does matter. A drummer with a degree in music has invested an amount of time into the instrument which he could not if he had a wrong set up which resulted to physical problems, and as far as I know you got taught quite a lot about posture, technique and it's effects on your playing.

My point is; there is a difference with an "unhealthy" setup and setups that arent harmfull but demand "more" of the player", for whatever personal reason.

[Fuzzy]

And in my opinion, comfort is everything. With comfort comes easy of playing, reassurance, and confidence (at least for me.) If A setup is ergonomic and not comfortable for me, then I'm not going to use it. Good for me or not.

[Carn]

What I was discussing with this thread fuzzy is whether that comfortable position is actually good for you or not.

again, I think with sitting straight and not having to overstretch/overturn/overreach you have 95% covered.

[Fuzzy]

^ This

[Aaron]

We're talking about the same thing [Carn and Fuzz] if that's the case. What you're describing IS ergonomic so this thread probably doesn't apply to you. Glad you know what cha doin' :cool:

[Fuzzy]

And I realize that the "Tone" of my text sounded kind of condescending and dickish. I apologize for that! Keep kickin' *** Aaron. <3

[raz0r]

Danny is 6"4, his ride isnt ergonomic in any way.
I'd disagree.

[Panopticon]

I'd disagree.

i'll agree with raz0r. He doesnt have to outstrech his arms to play it at all. He can play every part of the cymbal pretty much with his elbows against his body.

[Talos]

This thread is waste.

[Panopticon]

no...its really not.

[Retarded Chipple]

Yeah...and giving up drums isn't a waste:rolleyes:


Aaron, you never actually answered my question on the first page...

Are you saying people like Mike Portnoy and Neil Peart aren't playing egonomic kits?

[Talos]

Im not giving up, just not playing at the minute.
One of the main reasons I played was to keep up with the band and stuff, but now the band is dead and I dont have any real motivation.
When I stopped playing drums, I stopped visiting here.
I need to start playing again, same with guitar, but unfortunately I actually have a sprained wrist, so I cant do either if I wanted to.

[Aaron]

Aaron, you never actually answered my question on the first page...
From the video's I've seen, Portnoy has to often stand to hit things, which is far from ergonomic nor ideal as far as economy of motion; that twisting/pivoting movement he does whilst doing a sit-stand-hit-sit will neither be good for his mid and lower back, as he's shifting his weight around and putting stress on certain levels quite quickly, as well as may injure his knees.

Excluding Peart's highest toms [those above and to the left of his the hi-hats] and his piccolo-snare, I'd call ergonomic as it's a natural arc of movement.

To be honest I thought that your original post was trying to cause an arguement to get over-zealous fans involved and ignored it. I'll say this though; doesn't matter what level of drummer, some can have bad techniques and ergnomics and cause injury to themselves.

[TTTSNB]

Really? Haha. You'd think so wouldn't you, but with all things, people make decisions based on preference rather than medical evidence and logic.
Yeah, haha. I think Carn has too high an opinion of people.

[Carn]

Yeah, haha. I think Carn has too high an opinion of people.

We Dutch just tend to be a little bit smarter ;)

[MisurCanavi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfFFAzPCANQ

zomg flat toms ftl

Seriously though, ergonomics don't HURT you, that much we can agree on ;-).

[AndyEdwardsMusic.com]

It's all a question of balance (in both senses lol)

[Ollie The Drumming Legend]

Thanks Aaron, that is actually very helpful. Although I try to set up my kit as comfortably as possibly, I don't experiment with setup and positioning very often but this has made me think I probably should sometime soon. However, I wouldn't say that all visualising should be replaced with experimentation because it certainly helps your experimentation if you have some ideas about what might be comfy before you try them out - otherwise you would take even longer to do it (see scientific method below).

However:

People's bodies are all individual however science is concrete and certain things should always be adhered to.

"Science is concrete". In that it is objective, yes. In that it is rational, yes. In that it is certain, no. Science is theory that is backed up by empirical evidence, and scientific theory is accepted rather than proved - even if there was evidence that was totally certain. Theories can only ever be disproved with certainty. That is the difference between induction and deduction. One is basing conclusions around you available evidence, and is not used due to the ever-constant possibility of evidence being totally limited. The other, which is used, is where a theory is made and then evidence is collected to test it, until evidence appears that works against it - in which case the theory is modified or replaced. Just so as you know. That said, science is still the most rational and reliable way of understanding the world with any degree of certainty (even if a certain theory is later proved to be incorrect). But yes, that was a little OT. And a not good description at all I realise reading it back. I've been doing too much work and reading :\

Also what Aaron says pretty much still stands. I was just being pedantic.

[Aaron]

I know exactly what you mean, and lucky for us, it's a topic that has been extensively researched and discussed by the leading medical practitioners around the world; the fact is, bodies naturally move in certain ways and we should change our habits and tasks according to those movements. Backs are not meant to twist, arms are not meant to overextend and legs need to be positioned to support the body. Keep those things in mind, if nothing else, and you'll realise how often us drummers do things that are harmful and should be corrected. As much as we love the instrument and the music we make, we should always have health and long-term in mind.