Overhead mic's

[Sagmyr]

Hi guys
I was wondering..
Can a couple of overheads be used for the whole set?
I'm not sure which overheads.. Rode NT-5 perhaps?
I already have a D-112 for the kick, so that's covered at least.

[Chippy569]

if you're not close-micing toms, you'll want large-diaphragm condensers, and the nicest ones you can get.

what's your budget?

[Seafroggys]

I have two RODE NT2-A mics, and they're awesome.

They were also $400 apiece.

[billdrum]

They can do a good job, if you have good ones as Chippy said. You must mic the kick separately though. It's not ideal but will work.

[Sagmyr]

ok, thnx. My budget would be around 4000NKR, which i would belive would be around 700 USD or so. But that can't be directly compared to US prices, since mics are much more expensive over here in Norway. A couple of Rode NT5 costs aprox 4000NKR.
Buying used from the states would be nice though, but then I would have to pay customs and it still would be expensive :(

[CasB]

How about these?
http://www.thomann.de/nl/the_tbone_sc180_stereoset.htm

I've got them and am really happy with them. But I don't know if thomann ships to Norway...

[Chippy569]

ok, thnx. My budget would be around 4000NKR, which i would belive would be around 700 USD or so. But that can't be directly compared to US prices, since mics are much more expensive over here in Norway. A couple of Rode NT5 costs aprox 4000NKR.
Buying used from the states would be nice though, but then I would have to pay customs and it still would be expensive :(

but the USD is worth like nothing so you'd still probably do well! :amaze:

try looking at some Audio-Technica AT2020's or the AKG Perception 200's, just remember to get two.



the NT-5's are awesome if you have tom mics, but that's more $

[Damo]

The majority of your kit sound should come from overheads anyway, with close micing to fine-tune the balance of the drums.

AKG C414's are amazing for it, but expensive.

[Chippy569]

The majority of your kit sound should come from overheads anyway, with close micing to fine-tune the balance of the drums.

AKG C414's are amazing for it, but expensive.

mmmm, some of my faves. so purdy!

[Seafroggys]

Yeah, so true. My two overheads cover everything. I have a snare mic but the faders are like halfway as high as the overheads, it just adds some ooomph to the snare, and obviously one of the bass because overheads really only pick up a little of the attack.

[Sabian4015]

Two overheads and a kick mic are my ideal mic set-up. They need to be top quality and large diaphragm though. Sometimes I use an sm57 on the snare, but besides that I don't ever use any close micing.

[Chippy569]

close mikes can run into phase issues really quickly... imo close-micing toms is best saved for the stage

[Sagmyr]

Nice!
It seems i might just get the Perception 200's for about my budget too.
Are those mic's just about the same quality as the AT 2020's?

I'm running down to my local store today, hoping they have them there. Or else i'll have to buy them online.

[Chippy569]

the perception200's and the AT2020's are very similar. IIRC, the p200's come with the big shockmonts.

[Sagmyr]

Allrite, then I've been to my local store and the purchase is made.
Rode NT-5, matched pair. The seller didn't recommend the p200's since we're gonna play both medium and small gigs, mostly small gigs i guess. Also we don't use in-ear monitoring and could suffer lot's of feedback problems from large membran mics.

Now I gotta save up for a Beta56 for my snare, and i guess, over time some nice mics for my toms too, what do you recommend there?

[Panopticon]

For my rack-toms i'm using Audix D2's. I hear they're great. I haven't had a chance to try them out yet as i dont have a mixer/interface but i'll let you know how it goes.

As for Floor toms, you can use either bass drum mics or mics specifically for floor toms. I'll be using Audix D4's, which are floor tom mics.

[Chippy569]

Allrite, then I've been to my local store and the purchase is made.
Rode NT-5, matched pair. The seller didn't recommend the p200's since we're gonna play both medium and small gigs, mostly small gigs i guess. Also we don't use in-ear monitoring and could suffer lot's of feedback problems from large membran mics.

Now I gotta save up for a Beta56 for my snare, and i guess, over time some nice mics for my toms too, what do you recommend there?

be careful with the beta56, because it's a supercardioid, meaning it rejects sound on the sides of the capsule, but picks up behind the capsule. So, if you have a crash above and just behind your snare... guess what's gonna be in your snare mic!
for future reference, a cardioid mic (the SM series) has strong rear rejection but doesn't reject off the side as well.

for reference, here is the polar pattern for a typical supercardioid:
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:W990FXM7m0bGtM:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/e/eb/20070425175039!Polar_pattern_supercardioid_thumb.p ng

and here's a regular typical cardioid:
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:t2TpJTTAvZLWEM:http://www.astaticinstalled.com/files/930vp930vpw/930vp.polar_cardioid.gif


on either, imagine the mic being held straight upwards.

[Panopticon]

How exactly do you read those? I've always wondered.

[Chippy569]

all right, look at this one:
http://www.astaticinstalled.com/files/930vp930vpw/930vp.polar_cardioid.gif

pretend this is the pattern for an SM57. it's not, but just pretend.

The capsule of the mic, which is inside the end grill of the 57... that's smack in the center of the polar grid. The front of the mic points towards the 0 degrees mark, and the tail of the mic (where the XLR connection goes) is at 180 degrees.

this is the incorrect way to read it, but will explain what the graph means easier: notice in the center of the graph the -5. -10, etc. scale going towards the center. Pretend that is the dB cut.

now, go out in any direction from the capsule of the mic, like a radius. Say, the 30 degree mark on the left. You run into the red line at what looks like -1 or so. Think of that as, if your snare is off 30 degrees to that side, and is outputting 80dB, the mic interprets it as 79dB. again, this isn't how it actually works but it should help you understand the diagram.

If you notice closely, there's two lines, a red one for 1kHz and a dashed gray one for 100Hz. The pickup pattern is frequency-dependent.

So, say you have a bass cab 170 degrees to the right of center. notice that the mic will still pick up the bassier sounds from that cab, but reject the trebley sounds.


hope that helps, if you have questions feel free to ask.

[Sagmyr]

All hail the mighty Chippy!

Awesome post! I actually learned alot rite there.
And the sm57 is alot cheaper too :)
Thnx m8

[fastlane]

well why we're on the subject of mics ill ask my questions so i dont have to make a new thread. first off ive played all unmiced gigs. the latest one tho had a bass drum mic. i know its not required but is this the first thing u mic? the first unmiced gig i played the bass drum came through fine but the second time i couldnt hear it at all. how would i go about micing the bass drum. do i hook an amp to the mic or what? and what are some good bass drum mics to look into? its just something that im looking into. sorry if these are noob questions but i know nothing about sound equiptment.

[Chippy569]

well why we're on the subject of mics ill ask my questions so i dont have to make a new thread. first off ive played all unmiced gigs. the latest one tho had a bass drum mic. i know its not required but is this the first thing u mic? the first unmiced gig i played the bass drum came through fine but the second time i couldnt hear it at all. how would i go about micing the bass drum. do i hook an amp to the mic or what? and what are some good bass drum mics to look into? its just something that im looking into. sorry if these are noob questions but i know nothing about sound equiptment.

i'm assuming you're talking about live situations -- there is a HUGE difference between live and studio micing.

First, you have to analyze the room you're in. Do you really, really need mics? Bass drums produce low frequencies which can die out quicker than higher frequencies in open air (that's why an outdoor concert sounds bass-weak). However if you're playing small coffee shops and stuff you probably don't need one. Gigs large enough to require micing typically have their own (and their own staff to run the mixer).

so. do you really need a bass mic? go to one of your normal gigs and have a trusted buddy listen to see if you do, in fact, need one.

In the event you do, you buy yourself a mic. Cool. Now you would typically hook it to the front-of-house mixer via XLR cable (sometimes there's a snake on stage, which is a bunch of XLR jacks that all connect into one gigantic wire that runs from the stage back to the mixing desk). There, the signal runs through a preamp to bring the signal up to "line" level. (the signal from a microphone is very weak. Line level is the level an electric keyboard would output -- it's a lot stronger). After the preamp (which is sometimes included on the mixer) the signal works its way through the mixer, being sent possibly to auxiliary outputs (like a monitor mix) or to the main outputs (like the big PA speakers). Usually there's an equalizer on the mixer, too, to help clean up the sound.
Anyway, following the "main mix," the speaker moves to a high-powered amplifier (anywhere from 25 to 25,000 watts) and then out to the PA speakers.

your singer's vocal mic follows the exact same path, just to a different channel on the mixer.




So i'm not sure i understand your question. Do you think you need to purchase a kick mic, which in and of itself is rather useless, or do you need an entire PA system?

[Panopticon]

all right, look at this one:
http://www.astaticinstalled.com/files/930vp930vpw/930vp.polar_cardioid.gif

pretend this is the pattern for an SM57. it's not, but just pretend.

The capsule of the mic, which is inside the end grill of the 57... that's smack in the center of the polar grid. The front of the mic points towards the 0 degrees mark, and the tail of the mic (where the XLR connection goes) is at 180 degrees.

this is the incorrect way to read it, but will explain what the graph means easier: notice in the center of the graph the -5. -10, etc. scale going towards the center. Pretend that is the dB cut.

now, go out in any direction from the capsule of the mic, like a radius. Say, the 30 degree mark on the left. You run into the red line at what looks like -1 or so. Think of that as, if your snare is off 30 degrees to that side, and is outputting 80dB, the mic interprets it as 79dB. again, this isn't how it actually works but it should help you understand the diagram.

If you notice closely, there's two lines, a red one for 1kHz and a dashed gray one for 100Hz. The pickup pattern is frequency-dependent.

So, say you have a bass cab 170 degrees to the right of center. notice that the mic will still pick up the bassier sounds from that cab, but reject the trebley sounds.


hope that helps, if you have questions feel free to ask.

Okay so basically if im looking at the diagram like that, the mic is right in the center, with the screen facing towards me, or is it facing up with the screen towards the 0?

[CasB]

The front of the mic (where the grill is) is at 0 degrees.

[Panopticon]

ahh alright i understand now. And red is treblier and grey is bassier?

[CasB]

Yeah pretty much :)

[Panopticon]

Okay so assuming this is an SM57 (i know it isn't), if i put this on my snare, and its facing at say a 45 degree angle to the head, it will pick up pretty much everything.

Then if i have a cymbal behind it that is over 1khz, it won't pick it up at all? On the other hand, if i have a lower tom behind it, i'll get some bleed into the mic (not a lot but just a bit) from that tom?

[CasB]

Well...it will pick the cymbal up a bit, because of the reflections here and there. And you will get blood from the tom, but remember that it is 10dB more quiet (at 100Hz) than the snare.

You can't mic a kit without any bleed. It's the art to make it all sound like it's one.

[Panopticon]

Ah k...i understand now:)...thanks for the help:wave:

[fastlane]

chippy that helped. my friends have pa systems etc... but i really didnt know as in the mic itself. i wont have to worry about recording stuff for awhile it was just a question i had. and you answered it perfectly. thanks bro rep+

[Chippy569]

thanks for the rep :) good luck with everything.