How long

[Grazzum]

How long did it take some of you more veteran drummers to get a nice steady double stroke, I've been doing it for awhile but I still haven't reached a decent enough speed. Just curious as to how long it took you ppl so I can get a rough correlation, cheers

[Seafroggys]

I could do 'double strokes' but at a relatively low speed, I couldn't do open rolls until my freshman year in high school, so about two-two and a half years.

[dairyairman]

i started drumming when i was 11. i could do a fairly decent double stroke roll within a few months, but when i started all i had was a snare drum, and all i did was practice rudiments for a whole year.

[iamjoe2]

work on your rolls on a pillow, it helps immensely

just sit there for 5 min or so doing rolls as open as you can

[crazyguy832]

^^^
Bad idea.

Pillows are not good. Open rolls are all about rebound control.

I'm not the one saying this, JoJo is.

[Talos]

Yeah, its all about the 'bounce' of the stick off of the head on a real drum, so anything that makes the stick bounce/rebound like a normal head is good.
But I guess doing open rolls on a pillow is good for really building it up, if you can do it fast without bounce then youll be able to do it much faster with the rebound if you can control it.

If that makes sense?

[crazyguy832]

No, actually, that's horrible logic.

Learning something one way and then trying to relearn it... doesn't work.

There are two ways to play an open roll:

1) wrists
2) rebound

Playing with a pillow trains your wrist. This is, generally speaking, a bit more consistent. But, naturally, you can't get it nearly as fast or as smooth.

You must play on a kit or a pad to train with rebound and your fingers. Once you practice it for a long enough period of time, you can gain much higher speed than playing with your wrists. As well, the difference in constistency becomes incredibly small, so much so that it isn't even noticable (that's if there's any difference whatsoever).

[Seafroggys]

I have never practiced on a pillow, I don't see very much usage really.

[ace76543]

100 internets to whoever does a closed roll on a pillow

[crazyguy832]

lulz

Impossible.

XD

[iamjoe2]

Learning something one way and then trying to relearn it... doesn't work.


the whole point of practicing on a pillow is to build muscle

ask 9/10 rudimental drummers, rolls on a pillow=good

once you have the muscle its simply adjusting to the playing surface

you have to "relearn it", have you ever played on a marcing snare with a kevlar head? probably not, its like having someone throw the sticks back at you it has so much rebound. nothing can emulate that, its a matter of adjusting.

and whose to say you cant practice finger technique on a pillow? but honestly most beginners have little to no finger technique in the first place so there using the wrist anyway

[crazyguy832]

JoJo Mayer?

JoJo is incredibly against practicing on a pillow. As he's a famous drummer and a master of technique (he can do a roll on a suspended piece of paper and on a pizza... that was awesome \m/>_<\m/), I'm going to agree with him over you and these 9/10 rudimental drummers.

[ace76543]

you can't deny the facts though, it's simple logic. practicing on a pillow = building up muscles. are you guys honestly saying that if you roll on a pillow for a bit, you'll NEVER EVER BE ABLE TO PLAY ON A SNARE EVER AGAIN IN YOUR WHOLE LIFE BECAUSE YOU'RE SO USED TO THE PILLOW


?

[Retarded Chipple]

I'm not really for or against pillow practice...

Practicing on a pillow does build muscles but first you have to learn how to let the stick rebound and utilize it on an actual drum/pad.

If you don't know how to let the stick rebound, whats the point in practicing on something thats not gonna give you any rebound anyway!?

[ace76543]

Of course, but i don't think we're talking about someone who doesn't have a drumset. Practicing on a pillow can't hurt. Obviously if you don't practice on an actual drum it's going to be different; but that's beside the point.

[iamjoe2]

btw how is rolling on a peice of paper(wich ive done)or a pizza, that impressive?

[Grazzum]

What's the difference between open rolls, double stroke, and closed rolls?

[dairyairman]

a double stroke roll is played with exactly two drum hits per hand as in RRLLRRLLRRLL.... the idea is you stroke downward once with each hand alternately, but you let the stick bounce and hit twice per stroke.

an open roll is a double stroke roll played so you can clearly hear each drum hit.

a closed roll is a roll played in a way that the sound is a blur, where you can't hear individual drum hits. usually a closed roll is played in a "buzz" style where each hand does multiple hits per stroke.

[DxRocker]

Crazyguy, you act as if "rebound control" is all about fingers. That is certainly not true.
The way I see it, rebound countrol is about "rebound". Rebound by defenition implies an initial hit - off wich you "rebound". Guess what you use for that original hit...

That's right... the wrist.

The wrist alone = not enough, you want to hit and make the hit last for a couple more hits
The fingers alone = not enough, you want to have that initial power that makes it going, furthermore: good luck with accents with only the use of fingers.

It's a combination of both. So I'm quite positive that doing it on some non-trampoline surface from time to time won't be all bad. It's kind of obvious that it shouldn't be the most important aspect of your practice. You're trying to learn to play the drums, not the "phonebook"... :lol:

Anyway, if we consider what "rebound" actually is, then we might say that practicing on a pillow has nothing to do with rebound control whatsoever. It's only to strengthen the wrists. It doesn't help your "rebound control", it helps your force and wrist endurance, wich is just another aspect of your playing.

[iamjoe2]

Crazyguy, you act as if "rebound control" is all about fingers. That is certainly not true.
The way I see it, rebound countrol is about "rebound". Rebound by defenition implies an initial hit - off wich you "rebound". Guess what you use for that original hit...

That's right... the wrist.

The wrist alone = not enough, you want to hit and make the hit last for a couple more hits
The fingers alone = not enough, you want to have that initial power that makes it going, furthermore: good luck with accents with only the use of fingers.

It's a combination of both. So I'm quite positive that doing it on some non-trampoline surface from time to time won't be all bad. It's kind of obvious that it shouldn't be the most important aspect of your practice. You're trying to learn to play the drums, not the "phonebook"... :lol:

Anyway, if we consider what "rebound" actually is, then we might say that practicing on a pillow has nothing to do with rebound control whatsoever. It's only to strengthen the wrists. It doesn't help your "rebound control", it helps your force and wrist endurance, wich is just another aspect of your playing.


^^^QFT!!!!^^

[sichate]

get a pad and the heaviest sticks you can find, then use your normal sticks and a snare, you will be much better on the snare doing this then if you just practised on the snare, i wouldnt say practising on pillows is that good considering practising on pads works on wrists and rebound and developes the muscles involved much much quicker.

[FockerTheLopper]

If you really focus on technique you can develop amazing double strokes in maybe two three months. You just need to learn the right way of doing them and then use that open close method for every type of stroke you do (aside from wrist strokes of course)

[ace76543]

i started working on double stroke the day this thread was created, and i can about 100 bpm steadily

is that good progess or bad?

[White]

not too long, double stroke I'd say is the easiest, eventally you gain a nice feel for it and you'll be doin rolls in no time.

[FockerTheLopper]

i started working on double stroke the day this thread was created, and i can about 100 bpm steadily

is that good progess or bad?

No such thing as bad progress, just keep with it! If you really want a good double exercise (especially if you're starting) do an open roll, slow to fast and at the slower tempos use you're arms (really lose, you should be swing them up and down like olive in popeye) then as you go faster you go to only wrist and eventually only fingers, great for developing looseness, if I had a camera I'd show you the way

[ace76543]

yeah, i think i know what you're talking about. thanks a lot

[Carn]

No such thing as bad progress, just keep with it! If you really want a good double exercise (especially if you're starting) do an open roll, slow to fast and at the slower tempos use you're arms (really lose, you should be swing them up and down like olive in popeye) then as you go faster you go to only wrist and eventually only fingers, great for developing looseness, if I had a camera I'd show you the way

:thumb:

also, work on the 5/7/9/ etc groups in a musical context.

[FockerTheLopper]

:thumb:

also, work on the 5/7/9/ etc groups in a musical context.

Yeah, but even a couple of steps before that you should be able to play them on off beats. I've never done with 7's or 9's but 5's to a click starting on every 16th subdivision. Really good workout sounds really good. I haven't done it in probably a year and half so I'm actually not sure that I still can but it'll definately be something for me to practice now!

1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + a 4 e + a

The first 5 stroke roll is a rrllr (or llrrl) starting on the 1 ending on the 2, then starting on 3 ending on 4. Next you start the "e" of 1 land on the "e" of 2. Next you start on the "+" of 1 land on the "+" of 2. Next, you guessed it, start on the "a" of 1 land on the "a" of 2. Of course, 1=3 2=4, so you would play the entire measure.

Ways of doing this 4 measures each 8, 16, 2, 1 whatever. Then you can the sticking, singles doubles diddles, rrrll, rrrrl. Really anything even vary it within the execise (but make sure it isn't random).

The hardest thing to do is to add accents, singles are most effective for this. Once you have all the basics down (minus weird stickings and accents, I say stick to the big 3, doubles diddles singles) then you can start using it on you're kit coming up with fills. More interesting than any other rudiment in a fill because it has natural space that can be altered. A lot of people preach about flams but bleh, pra, okay now what? These are awsome!

Endless posibilities, 7 and 9 would probably give you some crazy over the barline phrasing, I'm not so sure they'd be good for improvising but hey, if super complex stuff if your thing I'm sure you can mix it in.

[NickC]

So is building up my muscles important then?

I fell I'm happy with doubles, open and closed rolls. However I've never bothered trying to build up my strength. Will me being stronger have any impact on my playing skills?


On the pillow front, I don't see how that could be bad practice if there is nothing else to play on, it'll help your brain get around the co ordination of different rudiments.
But to learn to play a drum roll, I'm not sure it'll do much good. I mean, it's not possible to play a drum roll on a pillow.

[FockerTheLopper]

So is building up my muscles important then?

I fell I'm happy with doubles, open and closed rolls. However I've never bothered trying to build up my strength. Will me being stronger have any impact on my playing skills?


On the pillow front, I don't see how that could be bad practice if there is nothing else to play on, it'll help your brain get around the co ordination of different rudiments.
But to learn to play a drum roll, I'm not sure it'll do much good. I mean, it's not possible to play a drum roll on a pillow.

Thats where you are wrong. and muscles don't help. I'm going to record the 5 excerise real quick and example of doubles to show you what you can do with them

[NickC]

OK, I'll take your word for it.
So does being able to play a drum roll on a pillow help your actuall drum playing? And how?

[fishbulb]

How long?

That's what she said!

[crazyguy832]

OK, I'll take your word for it.
So does being able to play a drum roll on a pillow help your actuall drum playing? And how?
It'll build up your muscles.

Thing is... do you want to build up your muscles?

Not really. Unless you have serious endurance issues after a year or two of playing, you don't want to build up your muscles. You'll actually slow yourself down doing so.

:smoke:

[NickC]

Right then!
What this person who needs help with his doubles needs to do is keep at it on a drum or practice pad.
As to length, everyones different, some people get thier heads and hands round things quicker than others.
One excercise I've found which really helps with my doubles is to practice alternating them.
eg.

RRLLRRLLRRLLRRLL RLLRRLLRRLRRLLR LLRRLLRRLLRRLLRR LRRLLRRLLRRLLRRL

Once your comfortable with that at a high speed, then your double open roll will come much easier, and you will be comfortable starting it on your weaker hand too!!

[Damo]

Im still trying to get them right...

[Charlie Daniels]

But to learn to play a drum roll, I'm not sure it'll do much good. I mean, it's not possible to play a drum roll on a pillow.

A point of clarifcation, buzz rolls can't be practiced on a pillow. The idea is for perfecting the wrist action to double strokes. I am a propenent for the idea pillow practices perfects technique.

[mattsmith]

It'll build up your muscles.

Thing is... do you want to build up your muscles?

Not really. Unless you have serious endurance issues after a year or two of playing, you don't want to build up your muscles. You'll actually slow yourself down doing so.

:smoke:

I think most drummers have endurance issues. In fact it's probably the number one reason for why we drummers drag tempos on gigs. I think 90% of the drummers I've ever run into could very much use some wrist muscle. Too much is seldom ever a problem because most guys are too much arm while seldom developing their wrists to proper levels. And to localize fingers to get the maximum effect, wrists have to be strong.

As for Mayer being against the pillow thing, he's actually taken a stand because he says he got tired of seeing beginner and some veteran drummers obsessing on it. Alongside this opinion, Dennis Chambers, Jim Chapin, Morello and others see it's value as long as it's in moderation. You don't go all one way or the other. But as we all know, there are always guys who just take the part of what someone says that interests them and go crazy.

BTW- Being able to play rolls on a piece of paper or a pizza demonstrates incredible control, and would be an amazing skill for pinpoint shading and dynamics.

[crazyguy832]

The paper was more impressive, but that pizzas effing hilarious.

XD

Eh, endurance has never been a problem for me, to be honest. To be perfectly, honest, though, I do isolate my fingers (individually! love that one finger exercise JoJo gave, so useful \m/>_<\m/) and wrists during practice and perform exercises as such. My legs get tired way faster than my hands do, and that's the same with most drummers I know. I use a fair bit of arm in my playing (note: metal; if I'm playing jazz, acoustic, or even church drumming, I use mostly fingers and a bit of wrist) and I don't really have endurance issues. I did when I started, naturally, but not anymore. I'm also a fairly big guy (read: fat XD), so if I don't have trouble, other people shouldn't either.

[mattsmith]

Eh, endurance has never been a problem for me, to be honest.

Me neither, but for most drummers it really is.

In fact I'm always amazed at the number of really good drummers who have time problems because they can't keep doubles up consistently at 160-180 (both hands) for up to 25-30 seconds without falling apart, or even being able to keep up singles for half that time. That's an endurance problem for sure, and I don't think guys today pay as much attention to all that as did the old schoolers back in the day.

And unless you're injecting your wrists with steroids, wrist strength is never a bad thing. It's almost always an advantage.

So to answer your question: do you want to build up your (wrist) muscles? 99% of the time the answer is yeah you do.

But if you and your friends are able to avoid all that, then that's great. You guys must be in great condition. Do you play a lot of 4-5 hour gigs?

BTW: just one other point, guys who isolate their finger skills with precision are pulling that off because they have stong wrists. I don't think you can have one without the other.

[crazyguy832]

No, I don't play any 4 hour gigs. I have 4 hour practices... not on drums, though, that's on bass. My drummer doesn't have a problem during these practices, though.

V_V

I'm gonna say fingers/wrists are easier for me cause I've been playing piano since I was 4. So, I've got a bit of a head start on the whole endurance thing.

At 160... I can go for at least a few minutes, I've never really bothered trying. For my hands it's a very comfortable speed. Doubles, though... ergmzlz... my doubles are a lot weaker than they should be.

:smash:

I could paradiddle it for sure, but straight doubles... hmm... I've gotta try that.

Most of my endurance work right now is with my legs (16ths at 130 for as long as possible, right now; hands do all kinds of variants overtop... great way to practice polyryhthms).

[mattsmith]

No, I don't play any 4 hour gigs. I have 4 hour practices... not on drums, though, that's on bass. My drummer doesn't have a problem during these practices, though.

V_V

I'm gonna say fingers/wrists are easier for me cause I've been playing piano since I was 4. So, I've got a bit of a head start on the whole endurance thing.

At 160... I can go for at least a few minutes, I've never really bothered trying. For my hands it's a very comfortable speed. Doubles, though... ergmzlz... my doubles are a lot weaker than they should be.

:smash:

I could paradiddle it for sure, but straight doubles... hmm... I've gotta try that.

Most of my endurance work right now is with my legs (16ths at 130 for as long as possible, right now; hands do all kinds of variants overtop... great way to practice polyryhthms).

Congratulations on your endurance. When you say you're going at 160 for a few minutes, are you meaning that you can play doubles continuously for that length of time without stopping? I ask because the continuously part is where the wrist strength is developed.

Part of my training when I was 12 or so surrounded around my Romanian teacher Vlad Popescu .........

video of Vlad here:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=glLHamkLo_U

...making me play singles continuously at medium tempos for ten minutes or more without stopping. My endurance picked up considerably and it was instant.

You're right about the piano cross training. Jack DeJohnette is a great piano player and he's also got outstanding endurance.

[crazyguy832]

For 10 minutes? Hmm... I doubt I could do it.

For two, three, possibly four minutes, yes.

I'm not sure I could with doubles, but I could with singles and probably paradiddles. Doubles are a weak point in my technique right now that I'm working on.

A lot of people "conk out" cause they're just playing faster than they can handle. I know the limits for my hands are 180 and I know the limit for my feet is 140 (straight singles for a minute). I never play past that. I am both progressing because of this and stopping bad habits from ever forming (both my hands have feet have gotten faster by around 10 bpm each over the past month and a bit, I'd say that's progress).

Just because it almost sounds like it, I'm not getting faster for the sake of getting faster. I'm simply saying as such because it's something I'm interested in (knowing my limits).

[mattsmith]

Just because it almost sounds like it, I'm not getting faster for the sake of getting faster. I'm simply saying as such because it's something I'm interested in (knowing my limits).

All the guys I know who are known for speed stuff got involved for the same reasons you describe, which are to solidify the evolution of fundamentals that are acheived in practice. And I think it's OK to mention speed in this context without feeling like someone is going to attack you. I get completely what you're trying to do with the speed exercises.

See, you've got a lot of guys out there who really don't practice very seriously, so when they hear some guy at the Pepsi machine, bitching about drummers and speed, they think it means speed in any and all contexts. I mean after all, how do you tell a guy that the sky is blue when he doesn't know what the color blue looks like? It's the same with those guys who scream the word musicality when they don't even understand what it means...otherwise they'd be using the correct word for the context they're describing...musicianship. IMO that's where most of the stereotypes and misperceptions come from.

Louie Bellson told me once about how he used to run into Joe Morello a few times a year about 50 years ago, and they would do a practice workout together, then have a friendly singles and doubles speed contest for fun. Then they would mark the scores with a pencil on the wall of the same practice room. Then they'd come back a couple of months later to the same practice room, compare and critique their routines, then have another contest, mark those scores with a pencil etc...Jim Chapin says Moeller used to do stuff like that with his students too.

Then Jim Kilpatrik the great pipe band drummer came to my first WFD, and we were discussing all this hatred that a small but very vocal group have about speed in any context, including practice. The first thing he said was Those lads either don't practice or they're slow from the start, cause they shouldn't say such things.

Anyway, not to get off track or make this a speed defense thread, but I did want to clarify the value of doing such things in organized practice, and how how that properly strengthens wrist muscles, that in turn improves endurance.

[Aaron]

Im still trying to get them right...
^ this. 8 years and I'm still not happy with mine...

[trysthedrummer]

Beginner questions? Beginner answers?! :D

Good read though. I saw steve white, and he practiced on a pad, isolating each fingers and doing some of the basic rudiments. I've never had anyone disagree with the pillow thing, I do it and it's helped immensely. But yes, to control the rebound on a kit/pad is important too.

[oliv_da_skinmasher]

How longs a piece of string?

Basicly there is no level where you should feel content with any aspect of drumming, push yourself.(of course this applys to anything of this nature)

[Imperial Star]

Lately I've playing doubles at slow medium tempos (around 100) but making sure with each double I get as much stick height as possible and hitting reasonable hard to. This has helped lots because before I was practicing doubles at almost ghostnote levels.

Really helps you play controlled relaxed doubles.