Bassists - The most insecure and arrogant of the lot?! [Archive]

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Riouken

11-02-2007, 01:13 PM

First of all, I'm not bitching on anyone specific in the forum, it's just stuff I've noticed... IN REAL LIFE!

There is a huge increase in bass players being full of elitism and arrogance. Their arrogance is of weird nature though. They are actually arrogant about having no ego. Isn't that funny.

"The thing I like about being a bassist is that we have no ego you know. We just lay it down at the back. We don't think we are better or anything." - What? I AM THE MOST MODEST OF THEM ALL!! ...

Anyway, I really just wanna ask people about 'groove' and stuff. Since that is subject of a lot of elitism in the bass community. But just so I don't get annoying, I won't post all that much in the thread.

Basically, all the elitism in the bass community is centered around the 'groove'. If I said, "He's not a real bass player. He doesn't know his scales, he doesn't know any of his theory and his ear training is much to be desired. He can't even play with decent tehcnique. He's not a bass player." - I would be elitist. However, if you reverse it, "Sure he knows his theory and his scales, and he can play really well... but where's da gro000ve bro? The groove! He's not a bass player to me." - That is not elitsm, OH NO, it's MATURE MUSICIANSHIP. The guy didn't say anything good, hejsut said more 'groove'... wht does that even mean?! Pathetic.

Could you guys just list to me what objective points you think exist in a good 'groove' (time keeping, technique etc) just to see how this all works.

WOOO I am so bored!

Left Shoe

11-02-2007, 01:18 PM

sorry, but jesus christ riou
http://phpthumb.sourceforge.net/demo/images/pineapple.jpg

EDIT: pineapple detagged, just to let this thread deliver.

Akira

11-02-2007, 01:19 PM

There is definite elitism in the vein of your description, but that is people for you. I think it is unavoidable.

Understanding In a Crash

11-02-2007, 01:20 PM

I got the same vibe from reading that description as well... Theirs elitists in everything if you really think about it but to say that bassists are the most arrogant of all of the instruments is just wrong.

Riouken

11-02-2007, 01:23 PM

Understanding In a Crash

11-02-2007, 01:27 PM

...I said they were the most arrogant as a joke my friends!! I should really adjust the way I word things on the internet.

I simply wanna know what peoples objective points on groove are? Is there any objectivity in it?
That was my bad :thumb: . The title is sure to get hostility from most of the guys here :thumb:

I think for "groove" it's all about holding a groove. To carry out the bottom end of the low notes that people don't always need to hear but indefinitely feel. That goes without saying it doesn't make a bassist anything less to play lead riffs and soloing...

I hear alot of technique and style but some of the favorite musicians are so unorthodox in technique and know nothing about music theory and are still quite listenable.

Riouken

11-02-2007, 01:30 PM

That was my bad :thumb: . The title is sure to get hostility from most of the guys here :thumb:

I think for "groove" it's all about holding a groove. To carry out the bottom end of the low notes that people don't always need to hear but indefinitely feel. That goes without saying it doesn't make a bassist anything less to play lead riffs and soloing...

I hear alot of technique and style but some of the favorite musicians are so unorthodox in technique and know nothing about music theory and are still quite listenable.

That was kinda the point I was getting at.

What do you mean, for 'groove', it's about holding a 'groove'? That doesn't explain anything!

But, from what I gather, your objectivity on groove is a bass to be felt rather than heard?

To Phil: Buddy, grow up! Not everyone wants to talk about homoerotica cos it's super funny that we are guys and ar elike... comfortable about like... our... like seuxlaity like. I'm not trying to have a go at you or have anythign aginast you, but I think talking about what peoples views are on 'groove' it's an interesting discussion. Before you go on about, "It's subjective, you will get nothing from it." - Well the fact that it is subjective means I will get the most from it! So, please, just grow up a sec and enjoy a discussion!

Left Shoe

11-02-2007, 01:38 PM

To Phil: Buddy, grow up! Not everyone wants to talk about homoerotica cos it's super funny that we are guys and ar elike... comfortable about like... our... like seuxlaity like. I'm not trying to have a go at you or have anythign aginast you, but I think talking about what peoples views are on 'groove' it's an interesting discussion. Before you go on about, "It's subjective, you will get nothing from it." - Well the fact that it is subjective means I will get the most from it! So, please, just grow up a sec and enjoy a discussion!

we already had this conversation, and you obviously misunderstood. You are trying to get objective points on groove, which is completely subjective, the most this thread is going to deliver is "the groove is like...when im in the zone man, yeah".

Understanding In a Crash

11-02-2007, 01:39 PM

Well with a lot of bands the bass isn't something thats always heard but thrown into the mix for that type of back bone strength. The lower frequencies will always be able to be felt which is sometimes stronger then being able to hear it. The bass player in traditional ways always was meant to be hold up the backbone of a band.

Riouken

11-02-2007, 01:44 PM

we already had this conversation, and you obviously misunderstood. You are trying to get objective points on groove, which is completely subjective, the most this thread is going to deliver is "the groove is like...when im in the zone man, yeah".

You'd be suprised about how many people don't treat it that way though Phil. Of course everything in groove is subjective! That's why I lik ethese conversations. I hate it when people treat groove as fact (play simple i sjust... INSANT groove) and put others down for not doing so.

But yeah, I think it's interesting having these conversations, I wanna see what groove is to some people, if they think groove still exists in todays music and blah blah! It's just a gathering of opinions.

Pluperfect_Arson

11-02-2007, 03:58 PM

EADG

11-02-2007, 04:09 PM

Led_Zeppelin678

11-02-2007, 05:48 PM

Basically, all the elitism in the bass community is centered around the 'groove'. If I said, "He's not a real bass player. He doesn't know his scales, he doesn't know any of his theory and his ear training is much to be desired. He can't even play with decent tehcnique. He's not a bass player." - I would be elitist. However, if you reverse it, "Sure he knows his theory and his scales, and he can play really well... but where's da gro000ve bro? The groove! He's not a bass player to me." - That is not elitsm, OH NO, it's MATURE MUSICIANSHIP. The guy didn't say anything good, hejsut said more 'groove'... wht does that even mean?! Pathetic

123

You don't have to stay on the root to lock in with the drums. I don't really use the term a lot, but if I had to define groove it would be staying precisely on time and knowing what beats to play/not play on. Of course, it's not a percussion instrument so you still need a sense of melody, knowledge of chords and scales, and a decent ear (something I'm still working on) to be a complete musician. People stress groove a lot, and it is important, but it's not the entirety of the instrument, and it doesn't mean playing with a minimalist approach. Rocco Prestia, Jaco Pastorius, John Paul Jones, James Jamerson, and many others had/have crazy good groove but they add(ed) a lot melodically as well. Playing simple always seemed like cheating to me, because it's so easy and common with bass, but it's art. Everyone has a different view, so in the end this entire discussion doesn't really mean anything, I suppose.

irishslappop

11-02-2007, 05:56 PM

The groove is like....when im in the zone man, yeah.

fajitaben3

11-02-2007, 06:01 PM

Your initial post should not be taken seriously in any matter for the following reasons:

1. There are numerous amounts of spelling and grammatical errors.

2. "Isn't that funny." That should have a question mark, as well as it is not an appropriately formed sentence. Written in full, it would read as follows: Is not that funny? Correct? I think not.

3. Ellipses are randomly placed throughout the writing.

4. Hyphens are randomly placed throughout the writing.

5. It is dumb.

Grammar pwns with grammatical errors in them are far worse than grammatical errors on their own.

Riouken

11-02-2007, 06:16 PM

Your initial post should not be taken seriously in any matter for the following reasons:

1. There are numerous amounts of spelling and grammatical errors.

2. "Isn't that funny." That should have a question mark, as well as it is not an appropriately formed sentence. Written in full, it would read as follows: Is not that funny? Correct? I think not.

3. Ellipses are randomly placed throughout the writing.

4. Hyphens are randomly placed throughout the writing.

5. It is dumb.

I made a few typos and some genuine errors absolutely!

But, having said that...

you can NOT be serious?

Do I sound like a TalkBass member a lot of the time btw? Just wondering.

Cause this forum is unbearably immature!!!

Nah just joking guys.

Riouken

11-02-2007, 06:19 PM

123

You don't have to stay on the root to lock in with the drums. I don't really use the term a lot, but if I had to define groove it would be staying precisely on time and knowing what beats to play/not play on. Of course, it's not a percussion instrument so you still need a sense of melody, knowledge of chords and scales, and a decent ear (something I'm still working on) to be a complete musician. People stress groove a lot, and it is important, but it's not the entirety of the instrument, and it doesn't mean playing with a minimalist approach. Rocco Prestia, Jaco Pastorius, John Paul Jones, James Jamerson, and many others had/have crazy good groove but they add(ed) a lot melodically as well. Playing simple always seemed like cheating to me, because it's so easy and common with bass, but it's art. Everyone has a different view, so in the end this entire discussion doesn't really mean anything, I suppose.

the discussion will not come to an absolute answer, that is true. But to say it doesn't mean anything is not true.

I like hearing other peoples opinions.

I know that's crazy!!!

Left Shoe

11-02-2007, 06:20 PM

The groove is like....when im in the zone man, yeah.

called it riouken, i ****ing called it

Riouken

11-02-2007, 06:25 PM

called it riouken, i ****ing called it

NNNOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

...Phil

....your power?

One Groovin Clown

11-02-2007, 06:41 PM

The groove is like....when im in the zone man, yeah.

This.

jollygiantchris

11-02-2007, 08:51 PM

i thought the groove was how well you locked in with the drummer or the pulse of the tune >:d

oh and there will always be elitism in any human endeavor that involves skill

Riouken

11-02-2007, 09:01 PM

i thought the groove was how well you locked in with the drummer or the pulse of the tune >:d

oh and there will always be elitism in any human endeavor that involves skill

Ah I see, well that's groove to you!

And, yes, I know... it should't have too though! But I wasn't qustioning whether it exists or not, I'm just pointing out that the bass community isn't as modest as everybody makes out.

Son of Magni

11-02-2007, 10:25 PM

I think, if you're holding the groove you know it. If you're not sure, then you gotta keep looking :)

HaVIC5

11-03-2007, 12:29 AM

Pluperfect_Arson

11-03-2007, 12:50 AM

Grammar pwns with grammatical errors in them are far worse than grammatical errors on their own.

My jokes work nicely. :cool:

Reasons for edit: Ben's a d-bag.

EADG

11-03-2007, 01:42 AM

Soulfly666

11-03-2007, 01:43 AM

Riouken

11-03-2007, 12:12 PM

How can you tell if a person's got groove?

If they get a steady, sizable payceck with a GB band or session gig.

How can you tell if a person doesn't?

They spend their time whining on internet forums about defining groove.

Why does nobody find conversation based on other peoples subjective opinions interesting?!?

Hahaha!

Disappointed Havic, you could have done better, I thinkyou rushed a bit!

Raiven

11-03-2007, 12:31 PM

Spaceman Spiff

11-03-2007, 12:49 PM

arguments on the internet.

Arguing on the internet is no less valid than arguing in real life.

Riouken

11-03-2007, 12:54 PM

arguments on the internet.

you have to realise you go to a music college now. EVERYONE there is arrogant and full of ego because it's that kind of environment, like a big boiler pot of conflicting opinions and false beliefs.

Just roll with it man. How're you finding the course anyway?

Dude, you realise you are arguing/debating with a real person here? It's not like the internet is a fake life or anything. We are real people. What difference does it make if I debate 'groove' with you over the net?

And I am FULLY aware there will be ego and stuff everywhere in a musical enviroment, but elitism shoudln't have to happen. It's the typical insecurity of a bassist... "Yeah man, guitar may look harder right, but... I can keep it groovin' k?".

I just think it's sad. Anyway, the main topic of debate was what is groove to you or anybody else.

And the course is serously AWESOME!! what about for you?

Son of Magni

11-03-2007, 01:01 PM

Arguing on the internet is no less valid than arguing in real life.

What are you trying to say nothing = nothing? ;)

Yeah, so arguing and debating are different things, no?

Anyways, I'll stick to my guns here. Groove is hard to define, but when you're in the pocket, you'll know it.

Riouken

11-03-2007, 01:04 PM

What are you trying to say nothing = nothing? ;)

Yeah, so arguing and debating are different things, no?

Anyways, I'll stick to my guns here. Groove is hard to define, but when you're in the pocket, you'll know it.

If you are meaning to imply that arguing = points being made of an agressive nature

Then, I don't see any of that happening anywhere :lol:!

It literally is just debating.

Confuzzled am I.

EADG

11-03-2007, 02:47 PM

Why does nobody find conversation based on other peoples subjective opinions interesting?!?

Because

1) They're about pointless ****

2) They go nowhere

Riouken

11-03-2007, 03:22 PM

Because

1) They're about pointless ****

2) They go nowhere

This thread is turning into an argument over whether it is pointless or not... BECAUSE of people like you!

You say "They go nowhere." asif we are expecting some absolute answer. It's just interesting debate and conversaiton... that's all!

Son of Magni

11-03-2007, 03:34 PM

...BECAUSE of people like you!...

lol

Riouken

11-03-2007, 03:36 PM

lol

You got me there Magni.

Soulfly666

11-03-2007, 03:44 PM

Just for the record, arguing and debating are the same thing. You make a point, and then you back it up. What most of us are doing in this thread is bickering. ;)

Anyway, the most objective thing that I could come up with for groove is that it is definitely something related to time keeping. I don't think it has too much to do with the amount of notes you play or don't play. A person can still groove if they are playing one note or sixteen notes as long as they play in good time....You know, I just realized something. You know those Victor Wooten videos on BPTV entitled "Ten Elements Of Music"? I'm going to go on and say that all of the things Vic presents = groove. Why? Because a good case can be built for every one of those things contributing to groove. It's really not just one thing. For those who don't know, it's the following things: notes, rhythm, feel, dynamics, technique, timbre, phrasing, listening, articulation, and space.

irishslappop

11-03-2007, 03:47 PM

ohhhhhhhhhhhhh myyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy goddddddddddddddddddddddd...

Riouken

11-03-2007, 03:50 PM

AcerbicCunnt77

11-03-2007, 03:50 PM

If we told you everyone would have it.
It's a notch on the belt you just have to finddddddd.

Soulfly666

11-03-2007, 04:13 PM

There is more to grovoe than playing simple and in time.

Indeed there is.

One of the reasons people probably think that playing simple and in time = groove is because it's a lot easier to incorporate a lot of the things that Wooten mentions in his video. It's a lot easier to play simple and play with feel, clean technique, articulation, dynamics, etc. than it is to play really busy and incorporate these things. For example, I'll see some things on here, or online in general, played really fast and busy, and while it is impressive, it lacks a lot of the elements that Wooten mentions, and generally, I don't like it. This happens more often with people that play fast and busy than people that like to keep slow and simple, so people tend to jump to the conlusion that playing slow and simple = groove.

Riouken

11-03-2007, 04:19 PM

Indeed there is.

One of the reasons people probably think that playing simple and in time = groove is because it's a lot easier to incorporate a lot of the things that Wooten mentions in his video. It's a lot easier to play simple and play with feel, clean technique, articulation, dynamics, etc. than it is to play really busy and incorporate these things. For example, I'll see some things on here, or online in general, played really fast and busy, and while it is impressive, it lacks a lot of the elements that Wooten mentions, and generally, I don't like it. This happens more often with people that play fast and busy than people that like to keep slow and simple, so people tend to jump to the conlusion that playing slow and simple = groove.

Yes! Absolutley! However, the danger with that is the eltiism that comes with it. People only ever associate slow and simpel with "groove" so they put down whoever incorporates naything else. Just as bad as a busy player putting down a simple player.

But... again, these elements that Wooten talks of is subjective (I am starting to get bored of that word :p). So good feel, good rhythm, good articulation etc. this is all subjective.

The point I was tyring to hit home all along is I kind of get isck of people syaing "Hmm, needds more groove" or "Where's the groove bro?".

It annoys me because as we have discovered, groove is full of many things... most of which is subjective!

Soulfly666

11-03-2007, 04:36 PM

Yes! Absolutley! However, the danger with that is the eltiism that comes with it. People only ever associate slow and simpel with "groove" so they put down whoever incorporates naything else. Just as bad as a busy player putting down a simple player.

Yea's that's true, but that's mostly just stupidity. (How do you like that elitism? Haha ;))

But... again, these elements that Wooten talks of is subjective (I am starting to get bored of that word :p). So good feel, good rhythm, good articulation etc. this is all subjective.

While they may be subjective, they are elements that most people would consider to be true. A person is more likely to listen to a person that is playing with good, and by good I mean what the majority of people would consider to be good, feel, rhythm, articulation, etc. than a person who isn't.

The point I was tyring to hit home all along is I kind of get isck of people syaing "Hmm, needds more groove" or "Where's the groove bro?".

Yea that can be pretty annoying, but everyone has their own opinion on what groove is, so there isn't much we can do about it. :-/

Riouken

11-03-2007, 04:38 PM

While they may be subjective, they are elements that most people would consider to be true. A person is more likely to listen to a person that is playing with good, and by good I mean what the majority of people would consider to be good, feel, rhythm, articulation, etc. than a person who isn't.

What is the general consensus of good feel, good rhythm and good artciulation?

Son of Magni

11-03-2007, 04:47 PM

...good feel, good rhythm and good artciulation...

That might be a good start of a definition, if you could only define "feel"...

A big part of it is repetition and how it's done. How much and what aspects of the phrase you modify each time you repeat it, and things like that. You have to keep it simple in some respects but make it interesting at the same time. So ya know, read "Gödel, Escher, Bach"...

Riouken

11-03-2007, 04:50 PM

That might be a good start of a definition, if you could only define "feel"...

A big part of it is repetition and how it's done. How much and what aspects of the phrase you modify each time you repeat it, and things like that. You have to keep it simple in some respects but make it interesting at the same time. So ya know, read "Gödel, Escher, Bach"...

Yeah, I agree, you have to first define 'feel'... another annoying subjectivity.

Soulfly666

11-03-2007, 05:27 PM

What is the general consensus of good feel, good rhythm and good artciulation?

Well first off notice that I said most people and not all people, so just for clarity, I'm basing what I say on my opinion and the many people that are around me.

Anyway, I often times hear people associate style or genre and emotion with feel, so maybe good feel is how convincing one is at playing the style or genre they are playing and playing with a certain amount of emotion. (Not that that's measureable).

Pulse, time, and tempo are often associated with rhythm, so maybe good rhythm is how well a person can manipluate time, while keeping a steady tempo and at the same time providing a distinctive pulse.

A person who has good articiulation is a person that knows when how to incorporate most, if not all, of different articultions (Accents, Staccato, Legato, Slurs, etc.)

Agree? Disagree?

Riouken

11-03-2007, 05:37 PM

Well first off notice that I said most people and not all people, so just for clarity, I'm basing what I say on my opinion and the many people that are around me.

Anyway, I often times hear people associate style or genre and emotion with feel, so maybe good feel is how convincing one is at playing the style or genre they are playing and playing with a certain amount of emotion. (Not that that's measureable).

Pulse, time, and tempo are often associated with rhythm, so maybe good rhythm is how well a person can manipluate time, while keeping a steady tempo and at the same time providing a distinctive pulse.

A person who has good articiulation is a person that knows when how to incorporate most, if not all, of different articultions (Accents, Staccato, Legato, Slurs, etc.)

Agree? Disagree?

You don't have to get defensive, I know what you meant man! "General"

Again all these things don't help to define what groove is or might be. How well you manipulate time? Another subjective term!

I am merely playing devils advocate of course, I am not having a go at you personally hahaha! Again, a person that knows when to incorpoate different articulations? At what point do we define that, "yes, THAT is the perfect time" for everybody?

I know you don't think this (the groove can be defined for eveyrbody), but the elitism srurrounding "groove" is surely apperant and surley unneccesary. It happens too often in the bass community and too often in this forum.

Son of Magni

11-03-2007, 05:45 PM

...someone is otr about elitism...

BenJammin

11-03-2007, 05:49 PM

http://www.hurleytom.com/images/DeadHorse400x231.jpg

Seriously man. Aren't you tired of this? We are (at least I am).

Soulfly666

11-03-2007, 05:50 PM

You don't have to get defensive, I know what you meant man! "General"

Sorry man, it's hard to distinguish how a person says certain things when you don't actually hear how they say them. :p

Again all these things don't help to define what groove is or might be. How well you manipulate time? Another subjective term!

:(

I am merely playing devils advocate of course, I am not having a go at you personally hahaha! Again, a person that knows when to incorpoate different articulations? At what point do we define that, "yes, THAT is the perfect time" for everybody?

Yea those things were no joke to define, if they can even be defined.

I know you don't think this (the groove can be defined for eveyrbody), but the elitism srurrounding "groove" is surely apperant and surley unneccesary. It happens too often in the bass community and too often in this forum.

I agree, but as long as there are people that are insecure and can't think for themselves, it's not going to go away.

EADG

11-03-2007, 05:50 PM

http://www.hurleytom.com/images/DeadHorse400x231.jpg

This sums up most of Riouken's "discussions"

Spaceman Spiff

11-03-2007, 05:52 PM

I don't see why people can't just discuss it without going off topic about how useless it is to discuss, blah blah blah.

If you don't care, YOU DON'T ****ING POST.

Riouken

11-03-2007, 05:59 PM

Guys, grow up. You are all immature pathetic people. Just be more secure with who you are and grow the hell up!

We were havnig decent discussion and then your lack of security and immaturity throws it off. It's quite frankly sad.

I agree with Spiff, just don't post if you find "oh so" pointless. Or perhaps you liek the attention?

EADG

11-03-2007, 07:24 PM

I didn't say what I said for attention

I said it because I don't understand why this forum always has to argue and discuss the same old **** that's been done to death for the past few years

Spaceman Spiff

11-03-2007, 07:30 PM

Whatever. Would you mind holding your tongue when you don't care about a thread? It's just a discussion, if people want to participate, let them, it's not hurting anyone.

Spamming and crap just makes more work for me. Less of it plz. That's all I axe.

HaVIC5

11-03-2007, 07:42 PM

Yeah, I agree, you have to first define 'feel'... another annoying subjectivity.
No, no, no, no.

I'm really tired of you saying that "time," "feel," and "groove are all entirely subjective, and this is probably the straw that broke the camel's back. There is a level of subjectivity, of course, but if it was entirely subjective, then nobody would work towards improving timesense, or improving articulation, or whatever. Nobody would do this, because, hey, it would be subjective, and it would be rather pointless to "improve" something that doesn't need to be improved because its already 100% valid in and of itself.

No, feel and timesense are subtleties, but EXTREMELY important subtleties that help define the energy, the direction, the flow and the entire musicality of a given musical situation. How well you define the objective pulse (objective stuff we're talking about here) and play in and around it (in front, behind, on top, more objective stuff), plays into feel. The fact that there isn't much English language to describe it doesn't take away from the fact that it is something that is very important and something that can indeed be measured (to an extent). My private teacher here at school recently said to me after I was walking a line "No, that sounds bad. I can't tell you why, I can only show you," and proceeded to play it in the correct feel, and contrasted it with the way I played it. "You see? That's what you're looking for when you want to get the gig."

Which is another thing. If I know all my theoretical and technical **** cold (which I do, to an extent), and I'm playing with different people practically every day, why I am not working yet? Why wouldn't I get calls from people looking for subs, or session engineers, or whatever? Why am I not getting any of that? Because my feel isn't where it's supposed to be. It's getting there, I know it, but its a subtlty that needs to be worked on and can only be achieved through lots and lots of playing, practice and listening.

Again, you can sit and whine about the "elitism" of groove. But if you dismiss that concept, you sure as hell aren't going to be the one people call.

Riouken

11-03-2007, 07:52 PM

No, no, no, no.

I'm really tired of you saying that "time," "feel," and "groove are all entirely subjective, and this is probably the straw that broke the camel's back. There is a level of subjectivity, of course, but if it was entirely subjective, then nobody would work towards improving timesense, or improving articulation, or whatever. Nobody would do this, because, hey, it would be subjective, and it would be rather pointless to "improve" something that doesn't need to be improved because its already 100% valid in and of itself.

No, feel and timesense are subtleties, but EXTREMELY important subtleties that help define the energy, the direction, the flow and the entire musicality of a given musical situation. How well you define the objective pulse (objective stuff we're talking about here) and play in and around it (in front, behind, on top, more objective stuff), plays into feel. The fact that there isn't much English language to describe it doesn't take away from the fact that it is something that is very important and something that can indeed be measured (to an extent). My private teacher here at school recently said to me after I was walking a line "No, that sounds bad. I can't tell you why, I can only show you," and proceeded to play it in the correct feel, and contrasted it with the way I played it. "You see? That's what you're looking for when you want to get the gig."

Which is another thing. If I know all my theoretical and technical **** cold (which I do, to an extent), and I'm playing with different people practically every day, why I am not working yet? Why wouldn't I get calls from people looking for subs, or session engineers, or whatever? Why am I not getting any of that? Because my feel isn't where it's supposed to be. It's getting there, I know it, but its a subtlty that needs to be worked on and can only be achieved through lots and lots of playing, practice and listening.

Again, you can sit and whine about the "elitism" of groove. But if you dismiss that concept, you sure as hell aren't going to be the one people call.

Perhaps there are certain objectivities that people can run to when it comes to a certain tyle. i.e. a wlaking bass line in jazz. If you did a reggae line in bebop... maybe won't go down so well. So, I agree in that respect.

However, how mcuh we liken to an artist that is not trying to be a sesison player, who is simply jamming with a drummer... how do we define their "good use of articulation/time" etc.? We define with our own subjectivity.

I appreciate that you might get sick of the word "subjectivity" being banded about (so am I), but I am pretty much sick of everyone refering to all bass playing as a session job. Maybe I don't care if I don't get the call? I am talking about bass as an art and where do we define it. How do you think music evolved if the studio producer/engineer always had one formula for one thing... there had to be submjectivity in there, a lot of it!

So, while I agree with you that there are certain topics that must be risen in a given genre, this still does not mean that those thigns are no longer subjective. Other than a style beiung put upon them, they are still subjective.

Things that I do not think are subjective is good time. Good time can be measured. Even if you are playing and flipping around time, you know if someone is in time. I don't think "feel" can be measured, unless you are chuckinginto a genre, of which it begs some objectivity to sound authentic.

P.S. Just liek to point out that I actually DO care if I get the call :p Since I want to be professional teacher, I want to know as much as I can.

HaVIC5

11-03-2007, 11:59 PM

Things that I do not think are subjective is good time. Good time can be measured. Even if you are playing and flipping around time, you know if someone is in time. I don't think "feel" can be measured, unless you are chuckinginto a genre, of which it begs some objectivity to sound authentic.

Ah, backtracking on the subjective of groove. You first said that its entirely subjective, now you're admitting that there are two elements here which are objective - timesense and stylistic feel. Two very definite things that can be quantified. The rest I suppose is a subjective thing, but if you have those two down (and a big if, very few people master these two complex subtlties), the general consensus is that you groove.

The word "chucking" by the way takes away from the importance of style, which I feel is wrong. Stylistic elements are incredibly important in defining feel, and contrary to what I know you're going to say (style is limiting, break the boundries! etc etc, yawn), 99.9% of what you play can be categorized into some sort of previously defined aesthetic, whether it be rock, funk, R&B, metal, bebop, afro-cuban, afro-brazilian, whatever whatever. Previously defined aesthetic notions are very objective, just not well-verbalized. Theres a difference there. Show me an example of something you feel can't be categorized by previous aesthetic and I'll relent, but its rare. Extremely rare.

P.S. Just liek to point out that I actually DO care if I get the call Since I want to be professional teacher, I want to know as much as I can.

Honestly? If you wanted to learn as much as you can, stop with this nonsense about feel being subjective and thus unimportant to stress. It is THE most important thing to stress. As a Victor Wootenite, you should know.

So, while I agree with you that there are certain topics that must be risen in a given genre, this still does not mean that those thigns are no longer subjective. Other than a style beiung put upon them, they are still subjective.

See above. You're diminishing the importance of style. Style is everything. You can play quarter notes in time in about 50 different styles with about 50 different feels.

However, how mcuh we liken to an artist that is not trying to be a sesison player, who is simply jamming with a drummer... how do we define their "good use of articulation/time" etc.? We define with our own subjectivity.

By stylistic aesthetic. By time sense. That's how you define it. Subjective notions of feel go into it a bit in all situations, but thats more "I like his stylistic interpretation" rather than "I like his feel" or "I don't like his feel".

Riouken

11-04-2007, 12:30 AM

Ah, backtracking on the subjective of groove. You first said that its entirely subjective, now you're admitting that there are two elements here which are objective - timesense and stylistic feel. Two very definite things that can be quantified. The rest I suppose is a subjective thing, but if you have those two down (and a big if, very few people master these two complex subtlties), the general consensus is that you groove.

The word "chucking" by the way takes away from the importance of style, which I feel is wrong. Stylistic elements are incredibly important in defining feel, and contrary to what I know you're going to say (style is limiting, break the boundries! etc etc, yawn), 99.9% of what you play can be categorized into some sort of previously defined aesthetic, whether it be rock, funk, R&B, metal, bebop, afro-cuban, afro-brazilian, whatever whatever. Previously defined aesthetic notions are very objective, just not well-verbalized. Theres a difference there. Show me an example of something you feel can't be categorized by previous aesthetic and I'll relent, but its rare. Extremely rare.

Honestly? If you wanted to learn as much as you can, stop with this nonsense about feel being subjective and thus unimportant to stress. It is THE most important thing to stress. As a Victor Wootenite, you should know.

See above. You're diminishing the importance of style. Style is everything. You can play quarter notes in time in about 50 different styles with about 50 different feels.

By stylistic aesthetic. By time sense. That's how you define it. Subjective notions of feel go into it a bit in all situations, but thats more "I like his stylistic interpretation" rather than "I like his feel" or "I don't like his feel".

For the most part of the entire argument I have been playing nothign but devil's advocate. It may suprise you but I am more inclined to agree with everything Jeff Berlin says than what Wooten might have to say.

I was not back tracking at all. There ARE objective points, to me being in time is ONE objective point (I think I mentioned it early on) but there are whole lot of others which beg subjectivity.

I never meant to "diminish" style or feel at all. What on earth put that in your mind I don't know. I think I worded it in a certain way and you too kit out of context, to which I apologise most sincerely.

I am so sick and damn tired of someone jamming with a drummer and saynig they don't "groove" or they need more "groove".

Check out that video I put up about Tal, I think that drummer grooves heavily, others did not. Style is not everything, but it is certianly unbearably important, I understand this and did not try to invalidate it at all.

I think you have a huge misunderstanding of where I myself am coming from, so I will clear it up.

I believe there are a few things in groove which you could define as objective, but there is always subjectivity in there. Telling someone who needs more "groove" solves nothing.... why? BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HELP A GOD DAMN THING. Why? Because for the most part it is subjective. You have to break it down however...

You COULD say, "Swing it." or, "add some more funky mutes in there" or, "Lay back before the beat."

(within a particular context of course)

These are objective things (to you.... maybe I don't want it to be swung?) that have been placed upon the player. If groove was completley objective, we could all say "Add some groove" and hey presto, you are done.

HaVIC5

11-04-2007, 01:09 AM

I simply wanna know what peoples objective points on groove are? Is there any objectivity in it?

I was not back tracking at all. There ARE objective points, to me being in time is ONE objective point (I think I mentioned it early on) but there are whole lot of others which beg subjectivity.

You're constant doubting of the objectivity of feel and groove is what caused me to say you're backtracking. Which you are. One moment you're challenging people to find objectivity, then you admit to objectivity. Backtracking.

[/quote]For the most part of the entire argument I have been playing nothign but devil's advocate. It may suprise you but I am more inclined to agree with everything Jeff Berlin says than what Wooten might have to say. [/quote]

What does Jeff Berlin have to do with this conversation? All Jeff Berlin says is that metronomes are useless for developing timefeel. He doesn't say that timefeel is subjective, and if you believed that his preaching against metronomes is evidence for your viewpoint, you're completely misunderstanding. His entire argument is that metronomes don't give you any information beyond teaching you to play mechanically, which completely goes against what you want in time feel. He argues that the way that you get steady rhythm is by listening to your internal clock and playing with others who already have a very good timefeel. That's how all of the greats learned how to play and develop their specific interpretations in the way of rhythm, not by playing with a metronome all day. This goes along with what Victor Wooten teaches - focusing in on the drummer rather than your bass playing. If you completely ignore your bass playing and instead focus in on what the other rhythm instruments are doing, then you're taking your playing to another level. Instead of focusing in on the mechanics and technique, which you already should know, you're removing that element and taking it up another notch.

I am so sick and damn tired of someone jamming with a drummer and saynig they don't "groove" or they need more "groove".

Maybe they don't? If you honestly can't tell how a drummer feels, and when it feels good for an appropriate stylistic situation, and whether or not their time is solid, then you have some maturing to do as a musician. Simple truth. Again, like Wooten says, the drummer is who you have to lock in with. If you can't make that feel how its supposed to given a style and good time, then yeah, you're not grooving.

I believe there are a few things in groove which you could define as objective, but there is always subjectivity in there. Telling someone who needs more "groove" solves nothing.... why? BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HELP A GOD DAMN THING. Why? Because for the most part it is subjective. You have to break it down however...

You COULD say, "Swing it." or, "add some more funky mutes in there" or, "Lay back before the beat."

(within a particular context of course)

Read what I said about my recent experience with my private teacher here at Berklee (his name is Dave Buda, a ****ing badass player, but never seemed to get above the radar. Tight guy too). English only does so much to describe it, and just because English can't explain it or doesn't have the correct capacity to fully define it doesn't mean it isn't defined. That's ridiculous. That would be like saying if you didn't have a word for "rocks" then there wouldn't be such thing as rocks. Style is an incredibly nuanced study, and it, unlike theory, can't entirely be quantified in the English language (nor should it need to).

I never meant to "diminish" style or feel at all. What on earth put that in your mind I don't know. I think I worded it in a certain way and you too kit out of context, to which I apologise most sincerely.

By saying "feel is another annoying subjectivity", and "other than a style being put upon them, they are still subjective," and talking about how you're "chucking" music into a genre, you really can't blame for thinking that you don't 1) care about style or 2) know enough to know its importance. Again, theres a LOT of different ways to play quarter notes.

These are objective things (to you.... maybe I don't want it to be swung?) that have been placed upon the player. If groove was completley objective, we could all say "Add some groove" and hey presto, you are done.

Several things, one, the whole english language bit. Two, if you didn't want a bebop bassline with quarter notes to be swung, that's entirely your artistic perogative, but know that it sure as hell is not going to groove. You might not want it to for whatever reason (it could be for effect, who knows), but given the style, its not going to groove, period. We're not talking about whether or not its going to be good music, because that bit is a lot more subjective, but its not going to fit the aesthetic in the slightest, and its not going to be good bebop.

Three, if groove were entirely subjective, that means we couldn't analyze it. It would mean that we wouldn't be able to see and understand the underlying structures and nuance, and attempt to internalize that for ourselves, because if it were subjective, that would mean that there WOULDN'T be any underlying structure, just something to like or dislike. Four, your analogy is misleading, its an oversimplification of a topic that does not deserve to be oversimplified at all. It would be like saying to an architect who's designs weren't structurally sound, "make them more structurally sound!" Or telling a student who just wrote a lousy paper, "write a better paper!" Or telling a business owner who's close to bankrupcy, "make more money!" You're just stating the obvious in all situations, which is what you're doing by telling somebody who can't groove to groove more. You're not voicing an opinion, you're simply telling the truth. Now again, there is a level of subjectivity to it, yes, but that subjectivity is based upon comparing to a defined aesthetic, not an overarching level of like or dislike that would make talking about groove invalid.

Riouken

11-04-2007, 01:24 AM

Left Shoe

11-04-2007, 01:37 AM

Havic, I completely agree with you - this is why you think I am back tracking. It's not back tracking. I'm not an idiot. The reason I mentioned Jeff Berlin is because Jeff Berlin says things such as, "If you can't play the right notes in a given style, you won't get the gig." - "If you can't play in time, you won't get the gig." - "you need to know the facts of music".

argumentum ad verecundiam

You were under the impression I was some hippie, preaching everyone to break boundaries. I'm not. I focus on music from an educational standpoint and want to know as much as I can. My whole argument was against people who said nothing but, "It needs more groove." - This was not my own example, I've heard counltess people say it. I mean, go on youtube for christ's sake.
strawman

We all need maturing as a musicain, yes... yes even YOU Havic. We all do. This whole discussion was against the elitism that comes with the vague, pointless (as you said yourself, stating the obvious) use of the word "groove". I will tell you now, the word groove means NOTHING. The word groove ammounts to the same as "I like that" What makes the difference? The stating of the facts of music.
argumentum ad hominem

"This needs more groove." - That's nothing
strawman

"No no no dude, this is the blues. It would probably have a more authentic feel/groove if you played a shuffle and did a walking line. Yeah, throwing in the flat won't hurt either."
reductionism

The second one you have stated the facts of music to suit the 'groove' - which I completley agree with! I begged people for objectivity as a means of discussion, not for my own personal attack.
argument ad miseracordiam

This whole argument is against people who say nothing but "Needs more groove." - Because the word 'groove' ammounts to nothing but "good".
strawman

omg fallacy. =P

HaVIC5

11-04-2007, 01:41 AM

No no no, absolutely not. I was not back tracking. I was begging people to find objectivity to simply play devil's advocate amongst the discussion. I wanted to challenge all points so we could have a nice open minded discussion and hopefully a healthy and educational one.

OK, I'm getting tired of this claim that you're "only playing devil's advocate!" Playing devil's advocate is a technique used to prove a point. What the hell is the point you're trying to make? That you're tired of people on YouTube? That groove is subjective? What exactly is it that you want people to agree with you on? Can you tell me that? Or are you just being a dick and arguing just for the sake of arguing?

I this entire time was (apparently mistakenly) thinking that you were saying that groove was entirely subjective...but since you were *cough* "only playing devil's advocate!"....

Havic, I completely agree with you - this is why you think I am back tracking. It's not back tracking. I'm not an idiot. The reason I mentioned Jeff Berlin is because Jeff Berlin says things such as, "If you can't play the right notes in a given style, you won't get the gig." - "If you can't play in time, you won't get the gig." - "you need to know the facts of music".

OK, you first introduce Jeff Berlin to contrast him with Victor Wooten, "I am more inclined to agree with everything Jeff Berlin says than what Wooten might have to say." I then show you that you were erroneous in contrasting the two, showing that they acutally are preaching the same thing, and all of a sudden you're saying you agreed with me all along? I don't get it.

You were under the impression I was some hippie, preaching everyone to break boundaries. I'm not. I focus on music from an educational standpoint and want to know as much as I can. My whole argument was against people who said nothing but, "It needs more groove." - This was not my own example, I've heard counltess people say it. I mean, go on youtube for christ's sake.

That's not an argument. You're just saying "I don't like people who say something needs to groove more."

We all need maturing as a musicain, yes... yes even YOU Havic. We all do. This whole discussion was against the elitism that comes with the vague, pointless (as you said yourself, stating the obvious) use of the word "groove". I will tell you now, the word groove means NOTHING. The word groove ammounts to the same as "I like that" What makes the difference? The stating of the facts of music.

"This needs more groove." - That's nothing.

Yeah, I know I need to mature as a musician, and if you can find a post in the past four years of me being here that speaks to the contrary, I'll rescind every one of my words here. That doesn't mean that I'm not experienced, though, and it doesn't mean that I don't know what I'm talking about.

And if you've been reading any of my posts, any of it at all, you'd see that saying "this needs more groove" is stating the obvious, it's NOT SAYING THAT IT MEANS NOTHING. It means EVERYTHING. Not liking something because it doesn't groove isn't elitist. That's like saying that not investing in a failing company is elitist, or avoiding the bad part of town late at night because its dangerous is elist. Saying "I'm not going through the bad part of town at night because its dangerous" is obvious; its not elitist, nor does it not mean anything. Some people don't know what they're talking about when they say something doesn't groove (see: all of YouTube), but you can indeed have something which quantifyable doesn't have good timesense nor sylistic sense, and be entirely justified in saying "this doesn't groove".

"No no no dude, this is the blues. It would probably have a more authentic feel/groove if you played a shuffle and did a walking line. Yeah, throwing in the flat won't hurt either."

The second one you have stated the facts of music to suit the 'groove' - which I completley agree with! I begged people for objectivity as a means of discussion, not for my own personal attack.

I've adressed the issue of English being insufficient to explain stylistic sense a total of three times now, so I'd suggest you'd start reading about it, and either a) understanding and agreeing or b) understanding and disagreeing, instead of ignoring it and going on as if I didn't make any point at all.

If you were teaching a person who was playing a blues line piss poorly, haven't never done correctly in their life, and you told them "It would probably have a more authentic feel/groove if you played a shuffle and did a walking line. Yeah, throwing in the flat won't hurt either," that wouldn't amount to anything. If you described in excruciating detail the mathematical relationships defining shuffle ryhthms as being somewhere inbetween dotted eighths/sixteenth and triplet, depending on tempo, and gave an extensive theoretical seminar covering every single aspect of walking lines you could ever want to know, and then gave a history and complete overview of blue notes, the blues, evolution of the blues into rock music and applications of root movement evolution into basslines, that still wouldn't mean anything, they'd still play with an inauthentic, incorrect feel. But if you didn't tell them anything except that "it doesn't groove (telling it how it is)", play it correctly for them, then throw them in with a seasoned blues drummer and guitar player and make them play a 4 hour gig, they'll have it in no time.

Why? Because English doesn't work.

This whole argument is against people who say nothing but "Needs more groove." - Because the word 'groove' ammounts to nothing but "good".

NO. NO. READ MY POSTS. I have given you two undeniably objective and complex items that make up groove - timefeel, and stylistic aesthetic, and yet you continue to say that the word "groove" amounts to nothing but "good?" If you contest these things, fine, go ahead and contest them, but you say you agree with me and STILL are arguing your point? I don't understand. Enlighten me.

Left Shoe

11-04-2007, 01:44 AM

adam, do you want to run to store 24? im thirsty and out of water in my room

Sablate McNuff

11-04-2007, 01:48 AM

ITT: HaVIC5 pwns Riouken, Phil needs water, and Joe posts random sh*t that is completely unrelated.

HaVIC5

11-04-2007, 02:13 AM

adam, do you want to run to store 24? im thirsty and out of water in my room
Yeah, meet you downstairs in a minute.

Sablate McNuff

11-04-2007, 02:15 AM

This isn't fair. I don't go to Berklee. I feel so left out.

:upset:

Left Shoe

11-04-2007, 02:26 AM

ITT: HaVIC5 pwns Riouken, Phil needs water, and Joe posts random sh*t that is completely unrelated.

nah not water, a tiny *** bottle of water up here is a dollar, where as this gigantic liter and a half of lipton tea is also a dollar, phil survives on tea.

Riouken

11-04-2007, 09:33 AM

OK, I'm getting tired of this claim that you're "only playing devil's advocate!" Playing devil's advocate is a technique used to prove a point. What the hell is the point you're trying to make? That you're tired of people on YouTube? That groove is subjective? What exactly is it that you want people to agree with you on? Can you tell me that? Or are you just being a dick and arguing just for the sake of arguing?

I this entire time was (apparently mistakenly) thinking that you were saying that groove was entirely subjective...but since you were *cough* "only playing devil's advocate!"....

I wasn't making a point, I was encouraging conversation. I think a Berlin thread recently I preached avery similar thing to what you are preaching. My is not that groove is totally subjective or totally objective, my point is that the word 'groove' is unbearably vague when it comes to critisism. Look at my initial post in the thread, the story I gave shows that. I wasn't back tracking my first post for christ's sake. I wanted to have discussion. You may find that hard to believe, but you can believe what you want.

OK, you first introduce Jeff Berlin to contrast him with Victor Wooten, "I am more inclined to agree with everything Jeff Berlin says than what Wooten might have to say." I then show you that you were erroneous in contrasting the two, showing that they acutally are preaching the same thing, and all of a sudden you're saying you agreed with me all along? I don't get it.

From speaking to Wooten a few tiems it seems they don't completley agree on the same thing. I brought up a Victor Wooten as an example fo your misunderstanding of me. Jeff Berlin is known to have a more conservative approach to the bass, unliek that of Victor Wooten. As I said, you were under the impression I was some hippie guy who wanted everyone to break boundaries... THINK OUTSIDE THEBOOXX MAAN. That is truley not how I am. So I used Jeff Berlin as an example to give you the kind of idea of where I'm coming from.

That's not an argument. You're just saying "I don't like people who say something needs to groove more."

No, MY argument TO those people is the word 'groove' ammounts to absoltuely nothing (I don't take that back) when it comes to critisism, because the word groove is far too vague. Like your private tutor showed you. He could have said, "Damn, Adam.... it needs more groove." - it means nothing However, as a kind of... hint of musicianship it means a lot. It's still the same as saying, "you need to get better." I just don't think it offers the player an appoach or a path to get there. Also, often people will simply say "It needs more groove." to make themselves look like mor mature musicians. Usually the guys who do not do this are the ones who can offer precise and accurate critisism and back up what they say.

Yeah, I know I need to mature as a musician, and if you can find a post in the past four years of me being here that speaks to the contrary, I'll rescind every one of my words here. That doesn't mean that I'm not experienced, though, and it doesn't mean that I don't know what I'm talking about.

And if you've been reading any of my posts, any of it at all, you'd see that saying "this needs more groove" is stating the obvious, it's NOT SAYING THAT IT MEANS NOTHING. It means EVERYTHING. Not liking something because it doesn't groove isn't elitist. That's like saying that not investing in a failing company is elitist, or avoiding the bad part of town late at night because its dangerous is elist. Saying "I'm not going through the bad part of town at night because its dangerous" is obvious; its not elitist, nor does it not mean anything. Some people don't know what they're talking about when they say something doesn't groove (see: all of YouTube), but you can indeed have something which quantifyable doesn't have good timesense nor sylistic sense, and be entirely justified in saying "this doesn't groove".

Your analogy isn't working at all with what where I am coming from. You have identified the appropiate advice in each quote, "Bad part of town" , "failing company" - Your example ammounts to this, "It doesn't groove man. Out of time and bad technique. Work on it with a metronome." - Which I have absoltuely NO problem with.

I've adressed the issue of English being insufficient to explain stylistic sense a total of three times now, so I'd suggest you'd start reading about it, and either a) understanding and agreeing or b) understanding and disagreeing, instead of ignoring it and going on as if I didn't make any point at all.

If you were teaching a person who was playing a blues line piss poorly, haven't never done correctly in their life, and you told them "It would probably have a more authentic feel/groove if you played a shuffle and did a walking line. Yeah, throwing in the flat won't hurt either," that wouldn't amount to anything. If you described in excruciating detail the mathematical relationships defining shuffle ryhthms as being somewhere inbetween dotted eighths/sixteenth and triplet, depending on tempo, and gave an extensive theoretical seminar covering every single aspect of walking lines you could ever want to know, and then gave a history and complete overview of blue notes, the blues, evolution of the blues into rock music and applications of root movement evolution into basslines, that still wouldn't mean anything, they'd still play with an inauthentic, incorrect feel. But if you didn't tell them anything except that "it doesn't groove (telling it how it is)", play it correctly for them, then throw them in with a seasoned blues drummer and guitar player and make them play a 4 hour gig, they'll have it in no time.

Why? Because English doesn't work.

I've never seen either situation happen, as I have no experience to that matter. So I can't agree with you or disagree with on you on that. However, I will say one thing. In either example you have educated them in some manner and have them move forward. I, again, have no problem with someone showing/educating/telling soemone HOW to improve their 'groove', but simply saying it does not groove doesn't help anybody. It is merely saying, "It's just not good enough yet." - Which is, yes, valuable in itself, but it doesn't help in any immediate effect whatsoever.

NO. NO. READ MY POSTS. I have given you two undeniably objective and complex items that make up groove - timefeel, and stylistic aesthetic, and yet you continue to say that the word "groove" amounts to nothing but "good?" If you contest these things, fine, go ahead and contest them, but you say you agree with me and STILL are arguing your point? I don't understand. Enlighten me.

The word groove, in a means of crit against another player still means nothing to me. I, as a player, would get nothing from it (other than some kind of enlgihtenment, which even then might not be sincere) than "This isn't good yet." - I don't see how you can deny it. You haven't really denied it at all.

Again, I stress, the word groove... as a means of critisising and improving other musicians... just doesn't cut it.

I'd also like to stress that if the word "groove" contains those two objective features - timefeel and stylistic aesthetic, then it still solves nothing in means of educaiton. Because if you already knew those two features, your groove would be settled.

Mr. Pickle

11-04-2007, 09:48 AM

Riouken

11-04-2007, 09:48 AM

Ohhh darrrnn it :p

Mr. Pickle

11-04-2007, 09:50 AM

I just want to feel like I'm part of the group.

Sablate McNuff

11-04-2007, 10:58 AM

nah not water, a tiny *** bottle of water up here is a dollar, where as this gigantic liter and a half of lipton tea is also a dollar, phil survives on tea.

I work in a grocery store. I could probably get you even a better deal on the tea than that (even though that's a bomb deal), but shipping to you would outweigh the savings.

Left Shoe

11-04-2007, 11:43 AM

I work in a grocery store. I could probably get you even a better deal on the tea than that (even though that's a bomb deal), but shipping to you would outweigh the savings.

what if you shipped like a ton of it at a time, we need to figure this out dude, hit me up on aim phelixwithoutYou

Left Shoe

11-04-2007, 03:14 PM

from bv/justin on line:

dude
tell riouken BV told him to shut the **** up
and stop making threads

Riouken

11-04-2007, 03:17 PM

from bv/justin on line:

dude
tell riouken BV told him to shut the **** up
and stop making threads

Havic is debating just as much as I! I am genuinally learning a lot from this, leave me alone! Insecurities, bandwagons etc.

BV was always the most mature of the forum members though :p

BassVirtuoso

11-04-2007, 11:10 PM

Suck my tar baby cotton gremlin **** you ****ing jew.

fajitaben3

11-04-2007, 11:13 PM

Riouken why are you even trying, you've lost.

YDload

11-04-2007, 11:16 PM

if you dont know what the groove is then you dont have it. if you think it can be explained in words then you dont have it. just admit that you're too white to be a good bassist.

i mean i'm white too but i dont act all arrhythmic about it. groove baby.

fajitaben3

11-04-2007, 11:20 PM

^^^pbf ftw

Riouken

11-04-2007, 11:29 PM

BV - Touche

Fajita - What good is debate if you are only in it to "win"? I don't think anybody has lsot or anybody has won. I'm simply learning from discussion, which I honeslty have. If all you care about is "wiining" then quite frankly, you're missing half the picture :)

fajitaben3

11-04-2007, 11:31 PM

Why are you debating with me? ACCEPT DEFEAT!

O'DOYLE RULES!

Riouken

11-04-2007, 11:32 PM

Oh wait! Aren't you that super famous dude from TFA that all the kids on here love?

SHEEET!!!

;)

fajitaben3

11-04-2007, 11:33 PM

Oh wait! Aren't you that super famous dude from TFA that all the kids on here love?

SHEEET!!!

;)

...I don't get it :upset:

Riouken

11-04-2007, 11:35 PM

Faj, just jump the bandwagon and be funny

QUICK GUY! QUICK!

Nah just joking dude, let's go to my videos thread and laugh heartily, whaddya say?

fajitaben3

11-04-2007, 11:36 PM

I really don't get it though.

Left Shoe

11-05-2007, 01:49 AM

I really don't get it though.

(you arent alone)

EADG

11-05-2007, 08:01 AM

(you arent alone)

this

Raiven

11-05-2007, 08:29 AM

Hey ben. Yeah I know but people treat the two as seperate things. I'm digging BIMM though, easy atm though which is good for practise, some people in my class shouldnt be on the course though as they are lost already which is worrying.

so exactly which year are you on mr? ive tried to find you but too no avail

fajitaben4

11-05-2007, 10:46 AM

Me?

Pluperfect_Arson

11-05-2007, 11:02 AM

lulz @ you being banned, again.

fajitaben4

11-05-2007, 12:05 PM

lulz @ you being banned, again.

Haha, only for two more days.... and fajitaben2 isn't banned anymore, but there was so much hype around fajitaben4's appearance I decided to make him now.

Riouken

11-05-2007, 12:28 PM

Haha, only for two more days.... and fajitaben2 isn't banned anymore, but there was so much hype around fajitaben4's appearance I decided to make him now.

You just don't stop!!

fajitaben4

11-05-2007, 12:36 PM

Nope, I'm a madman

Left Shoe

11-05-2007, 12:48 PM

You just don't stop!!

irony ftw

ThisIsDefinitelyNotSade

11-05-2007, 12:49 PM

wtf@fajita getting banned 3 times.

has the world gone mad?

Pluperfect_Arson

11-05-2007, 12:49 PM

irony ftw

:lol: times a thousand

Pluperfect_Arson

11-05-2007, 12:50 PM

wtf@fajita getting banned 3 times.

has the world gone mad?

Apparently so!

I am surprised that I have yet to be banned with how much I have spammed lately.

/will now be banned

Left Shoe

11-05-2007, 12:51 PM

i am a lesson mod, i am immune to bannings, the owner of mx himself has to notice im obnoxious, and he only comes around like twice a year el oh el

fajitaben4

11-05-2007, 12:54 PM

LOLZLZ DUHDUS BAN ME!!!!!! \m/

See, the more annoying you are, the less you get banned.

FUDFHJBFJS PR0N R00LZ CHECK OUT THESE N000DZ!!!!

http://www.nudes.com

Pluperfect_Arson

11-05-2007, 12:55 PM

:lol::lol::lol:

Riouken

11-05-2007, 01:10 PM

irony ftw

That was.... sorta the point Phil.

I'm disappointed.

Pluperfect_Arson

11-05-2007, 01:24 PM

That was.... sorta the point Phil.

I'm disappointed.

Why are you disappointed?

You should be more ashamed because of yourself than anything.

OOOOOOOOH
What are you going to do now?

Riouken

11-05-2007, 01:34 PM

Why are you disappointed?

You should be more ashamed because of yourself than anything.

OOOOOOOOH
What are you going to do now?

...I... I can't do...

*sigh* :(

That's it.

I can't do a gosh-darn thing :(

fajitaben4

11-05-2007, 01:35 PM

Yeah you ****ing faggot

Pluperfect_Arson

11-05-2007, 02:42 PM

...I... I can't do...

*sigh* :(

That's it.

I can't do a gosh-darn thing :(

It is alright.

I am here for you.

/comforts

Left Shoe

11-05-2007, 04:55 PM

That was.... sorta the point Phil.

I'm disappointed.
no i was being sarcastic...or playing devils advocate, whatever fits in this context

Riouken

11-05-2007, 05:07 PM

no i was being sarcastic...or playing devils advocate, whatever fits in this context

Ok, ok Phil!! Let me think... should I believe you or not?

Well, your logic makes perfect sense but... my buddy doesn't believe you... and if what you said was true, I'd look silly.

So... I DON'T BELIEVE YOU PHIL!

I JUST DO NOT BELIEVE YOU!

fajitaben2

11-05-2007, 05:11 PM

YOU GUYS ARE ALL N00BS!!!!!! NOOOOOOOBS!!!!@@@@EU*FY*RY&FG Gygvu hvjzHvjHv[i ]\vZV}
Vcxjv
cjv
jv

SPAM SPAM

SPAM

BAN ME!

Riouken

11-05-2007, 05:14 PM

HAHAHA Faj!

Seriously... calm down now! Too much sugar? Boredom? What is it? We can get through this.

Together.

Left Shoe

11-05-2007, 06:19 PM

Ok, ok Phil!! Let me think... should I believe you or not?

Well, your logic makes perfect sense but... my buddy doesn't believe you... and if what you said was true, I'd look silly.

So... I DON'T BELIEVE YOU PHIL!

I JUST DO NOT BELIEVE YOU!

...I don't get it :upset:

this.

EADG

11-05-2007, 06:21 PM

this.

this

Riouken

11-05-2007, 06:31 PM

this.

You MUST have got that.

Left Shoe

11-05-2007, 06:34 PM

ITT: riouken might become diagnosed with severe dementia

Riouken

11-05-2007, 06:36 PM

It couldn't possibly be that you never saw my point?

Nah, you certainly did see my point :p But enough of this Phil, enough of these games... enough of these....

...these... lies you know? THESE THINGS!!

EADG

11-05-2007, 06:38 PM

Riouken

11-05-2007, 06:39 PM

Oh my god... EADG? Are you serious? Can you not see I am just over dramatising and joking around?! I swear you actually DO see that... I don't think that low of you at all.

Yes, occasionally there is the odd sub-text... but that's all good buddy!

EADG

11-05-2007, 06:41 PM

Oh my god... EADG? Are you serious? Can you not see I am just over dramatising and joking around?! I swear you actually DO see that... I don't think that low of you at all.

No, I just really had no clue what you were talking about

I don't know what you're on about mate that's bang right out of order :confused:

Riouken

11-05-2007, 06:42 PM

10,900 posts EADG. Good job.

EADG

11-05-2007, 06:43 PM

10,900 posts EADG. Good job.

thanks but save it, 11k is the real landmark

Riouken

11-05-2007, 06:44 PM

Sorry dude.

EADG

11-05-2007, 06:45 PM

It's cool I mean I appreciate it all the same

Left Shoe

11-05-2007, 08:49 PM

No, I just really had no clue what you were talking about

I don't know what you're on about mate that's bang right out of order :confused:

again, this.

EADG

11-05-2007, 09:08 PM

again, this.

this

fajitaben2

11-06-2007, 01:39 AM

Left Shoe

11-06-2007, 01:41 AM

(its canadian humor)

Riouken

11-06-2007, 03:41 AM

Riouken, we understand that you were joking, we just don't UNDERSTAND the joke... like, where is it coming from? The TFA jokes just don't make sense, I told Nik about them and asked if he understood and he was just like "what?" I mean we take jokes very well, we just don't get it.

I suppose I can see why you might not get that.... hmmmm, I thought I made it quite clear. Sometimes the joke may be mroe of a sarcastic dig than an actual "har har" joke.. but I dunno!!

Where has spiff been?

fajitaben2

11-06-2007, 03:57 AM

I suppose I can see why you might not get that.... hmmmm, I thought I made it quite clear. Sometimes the joke may be mroe of a sarcastic dig than an actual "har har" joke.. but I dunno!!

Where has spiff been?

I figured it might be sarcastic but the sarcasm seems misplaced. Nobody goes on about how famous we are, and we're not incredibly unpopular either, so either way the sarcasm makes little sense.

I guess Phil's explanation is the only way to get anything from this.

Riouken

11-06-2007, 04:37 AM

I figured it might be sarcastic but the sarcasm seems misplaced. Nobody goes on about how famous we are, and we're not incredibly unpopular either, so either way the sarcasm makes little sense.

I guess Phil's explanation is the only way to get anything from this.

You're right.

Pluperfect_Arson

11-06-2007, 04:40 AM

Lol Canadia

Actually, I quest a lot with Canadians, and they say "harth," instead of "herth" for hearth.

theosd

11-06-2007, 06:22 AM

Wooten's new videos go a good way to breaking down different aspects. http://www.bassplayer.tv Go to artist features > Victor Wooten.

Watch the first lot up to the Jam with Jeff Berlin.

Riouken

11-06-2007, 09:18 AM

Wooten's new videos go a good way to breaking down different aspects. http://www.bassplayer.tv Go to artist features > Victor Wooten.

Watch the first lot up to the Jam with Jeff Berlin.

Aye. I posted that video here a while ago.

Good stuff!

Raiven

11-06-2007, 12:23 PM

Riouken

11-06-2007, 12:27 PM

man it'd be well good if riouken replied to this :angry:

HEY! sorry dude!!

I am on FD1. And I am kinda annoyed but not hugely!

I was offered a slot on BA in audition and I said "Nah, better play it safe." - I thought I'd struggle a lot and be in a class ith a bunch of amazing theory-head bass players. But, not really! Not dissing any of them, I like them all.

But i am jsut kidna disappointed that I didn't take that slot cos of my own fear, when it turns out it was irraitonal. Oh well! I'm sure I will learn loads from this anyway! I will be joining BA year 3 in 2 years. (if I get in)

Raiven

11-06-2007, 12:34 PM

HEY! sorry dude!!

I am on FD1. And I am kinda annoyed but not hugely!

I was offered a slot on BA in audition and I said "Nah, better play it safe." - I thought I'd struggle a lot and be in a class ith a bunch of amazing theory-head bass players. But, not really! Not dissing any of them, I like them all.

But i am jsut kidna disappointed that I didn't take that slot cos of my own fear, when it turns out it was irraitonal. Oh well! I'm sure I will learn loads from this anyway! I will be joining BA year 3 in 2 years. (if I get in)

Ah okay. So we're on parallel courses then as I'm on Pro-Dip.

and scarily enough i pulled the same move you did =/ some people on my course hurt my head with the lack of knowing what a major scale is. :'(

so here's to being on the same course in year 3!!

we should def meet up at some point and be all bass geek like. do you ever do a LPW with a big guy called Dan who has the greatest chuckle? i met him on halloween at some party and i think he's on your course.

Riouken

11-06-2007, 12:36 PM

Raiven

11-06-2007, 12:40 PM

Dan Gilbert? Yeah!! He has birmingham type accent I think? But yeah, I know him. He's not on my LPW though.

We are doing I Want You Back Jackson 5 next week :p

Well, we can meet up deifnitley man. Just tell me when you are free. Are you going to the guest masterclass this Friday?

thats awesome. we get **** songs up unitl a Tower Of Power one which will own hard. the aretha franklin one was a bitch as its full of odd time which threw me. But it's okay because all the songs I'm doing this year you get to do next year so yeah =/ the difficulty reduces alot for you.

and i reckon i might do as i should actually attend one of those. Got songwriting till 3pm though so i'd prob be in a 430 one. I reckon I'll be at the providence on thurs night to see Deal is for the diamonds though, i mean free gigs = awesome.

Riouken

11-06-2007, 12:42 PM

We did the Aretha song today! Was really fun! I didn't find the odd tim hard really. 4/4, 4/4 and 3/4 (jsut subdivide it in that manner).

It was fun!

Raiven

11-06-2007, 12:45 PM

We did the Aretha song today! Was really fun! I didn't find the odd tim hard really. 4/4, 4/4 and 3/4 (jsut subdivide it in that manner).

It was fun!

yeah i get that now, but some girl from your class wanted me to learn it and forgot to mention i should look out for them. but then what can you do with the vocalists.

where abouts you livin

Riouken

11-06-2007, 12:46 PM

Uniersity of Sussex Campus.

You?

Raiven

11-06-2007, 12:48 PM

Uniersity of Sussex Campus.

You?

Missions. thats so far from either BIMM.

I'm near elm grove in a house. its awesome. i breifly visited sussex campus on halloween and was shocked at how bad it was.

Riouken

11-06-2007, 12:50 PM

Hahaha!! I love it! Stanmer Court are thenew buildings! And it's great :D We hae en suite bathrooms and stuff, so nothing to worry about :p

I didn't go out on halloween,.

Raiven

11-06-2007, 12:52 PM

dude thats lame. I was Mr incredible. You gotta come out more and socialise (party hard) rather then sit on mx and stuff.

i think a group of us are going to go and see architects next fri which you should come along too. thaqt or the deal is for the diamonds gig which is free

Riouken

11-06-2007, 02:04 PM

Left Shoe

11-06-2007, 04:27 PM

great way to make contacts...practicing...yeah

Banned_Again

11-06-2007, 04:57 PM

Niko worked, then went home and played WoW all night on Halloween. :(

i think a group of us are going to go and see architects next fri which you should come along too. thaqt or the deal is for the diamonds gig which is free

Niko hates the fact that there is a band entitled Architects, then another entitled Architect. He always forgets which one is which because one is decent, and the other one sucks.

katana_manatee

11-06-2007, 04:59 PM

Benji, there is being a student and being a student. Be a student.

Riouken

11-06-2007, 05:31 PM

great way to make contacts...practicing...yeah

4 hours is not 24 hours Phil :p

I don't drink alchohol and I hate partying. So what Raiven suggested was not my thing ;) Nor was all the halloween mayhem around here.

I go out with my friends, to quiet places etc.

Sauron

11-06-2007, 05:31 PM

J.S. Bach was one groovy mothaf***a.

Man knew how to funk left, right, up, down... **** he coulda funked yo' mind back through time.

"It's gravy, baby"
- J.S. Bach, Summer of 1729

EADG

11-06-2007, 05:32 PM

4 hours is not 24 hours Phil :p

You do sleep, go to class, and do your assignments too, right?

Riouken

11-06-2007, 05:33 PM

Ohhh EADG! Think before you try to look cool infront of Phil!

Of cours I do my friend!

I do all my socialising at class, going out after class etc. Get home at 5, do work. take breaks Start practice at 8 and finish at 12.

I also want to point out that.. making contacts isn't neccesarily what I want to do?

BUT YA KNOW, THAT'S JUST ME BRO!

edit: Making contacts in terms of business... everybody naturally makes friends

PUH! Good lcuk Rio!

^^
this

Left Shoe

11-06-2007, 05:37 PM

first off, eadg and i dont need to look col to each other, we passed like that months ago.

secondly, i mean what do you want to do with your degree? i want to teach so i dont need many contacts, but the parties i have gone to, im in a band negotiating a record contract with sony, and im going on tour in bermuda with another group this summer all expenses paid. i mean cmon now riou.

EADG

11-06-2007, 05:37 PM

My point was that you were trying to imply that you only practice 4/24 hours and therefore have the rest of the day to socialize but you obviously don't have anywhere close to 20 free hours with class, work, sleeping, eating, etc..

you do all of your socializing in class? And you still learn loads? And your professors don't seem to mind?

and one more thing.. making contacts is kind of most people's top reasons to study music at the post secondary level amirite

:confused:

EADG

11-06-2007, 05:39 PM

first off, eadg and i dont need to look col to each other, we passed like that months ago.

this

secondly, i mean what do you want to do with your degree? i want to teach so i dont need many contacts, but the parties i have gone to, im in a band negotiating a record contract with sony, and im going on tour in bermuda with another group this summer all expenses paid. i mean cmon now riou.

My roommate is from Bermuda, he said there's no music scene and it's not profitable at all to book dates there due to travel/bad turnouts

and how the hell do you tour Bermuda? The whole country is like 21km2

Left Shoe

11-06-2007, 05:40 PM

no im in it for the education, alot of lame people at berklee. (this place feels like high school)

Riouken

11-06-2007, 05:40 PM

Phil: I also want to be a professional teacher! Running a music couse etc.! :thumb: I have to do a PGCE too, which is only 1 year extra, worth it!

EADG: You are picking at straws to try and score brownie points on me. You know what I meant :thumb:

And "class" jsut means my whole educational day. For example, I hhave 3 hours gap tommorow, but I stay in the city for those 3 hours.

And is that really their top priority?! That's awesome! The word "most" suits you well!

Left Shoe

11-06-2007, 05:41 PM

My roommate is from Bermuda, he said there's no music scene and it's not profitable at all to book dates there due to travel/bad turnouts

and how the hell do you tour Bermuda? The whole country is like 21km2

we play a club every night, were not touring so much as throwing together an ensemble with enough people with enough hookups that not only do we brake even, we should come out of it with about 400$ cash in pocket each.

EADG

11-06-2007, 05:41 PM

Left Shoe

11-06-2007, 05:42 PM

Phil: I also want to be a professional teacher! Running a music couse etc.! :thumb: I have to do a PGCE too, which is only 1 year extra, worth it!

my parents want me to get the doctorate, so its like...8 years of schooling. bleeh

Riouken

11-06-2007, 05:43 PM

I naturally make quite a few contacts. I jsut don't go out clubbing and parties. I jsut naturally make friends.

And again, everybody in th world could go to uni and get a degree for contacts alone... I am not however.

Riouken

11-06-2007, 05:43 PM

my parents want me to get the doctorate, so its like...8 years of schooling. bleeh

Do you also want the Doctorate? Or are you being somewhat forced into it?

Left Shoe

11-06-2007, 05:44 PM

i mean, i want to teach at the university level, so its sort of needed (not really), i mean itll be cool to have, and i love school so i wont mind, itll just be affording it somehow. but im not going to think about that right now

Riouken

11-06-2007, 05:46 PM

Fair dos!! At the UK you do 3 years of degree, 1 year PGCE (which means you can teach all ages) and that's it!

Of course your personality and general skill goes somewhat into it I assume?

Left Shoe

11-06-2007, 05:49 PM

what do you mean

Riouken

11-06-2007, 05:51 PM

Well, I am studynig at University doing a BA Hons degree.

I really wanna teach at college level mainly (ages 16-18 or older... but basically the place you goto when you finish school in the UK). but in order to teach at University level here, you jsut need to do your degree and get a PGCE (a teacher training course which lasts 1 year).

Obviously the University itself might have certain standards, but it is technically that is all you "need".

Left Shoe

11-06-2007, 05:54 PM

i still have no idea what you are asking.

Riouken

11-06-2007, 05:56 PM

Oh no, I wasn't asking. You said it will take you 8 years of schooling.

And I was just saying how hee it takes us 4 years, but the Universitiy's standards obviously get taken into account :thumb:

Trivia!! Teatime conversation!

Left Shoe

11-06-2007, 06:00 PM

...

i challenge you to a bass off.

Riouken

11-06-2007, 06:01 PM

But I've never seen you play.

The mystery is too intimidating

Left Shoe

11-06-2007, 06:05 PM

http://www.uncoveregypt.com/images/cruise/mystery_man.jpg
*evil dark laugh*

Riouken

11-06-2007, 06:06 PM

I lose :(

d-mart

11-07-2007, 08:34 AM

Riouken

11-07-2007, 09:01 AM

Are you on the BA or the diploma?

2 years foundation Degree then the 3rd of the BA.

So, 3 years and I will have a BA! :) (...if all goes to plan)

d-mart

11-07-2007, 09:19 AM

2 years foundation Degree then the 3rd of the BA.

So, 3 years and I will have a BA! :) (...if all goes to plan)

How does that even work?

Surely 2 years of a foundation degree is not the same as two years of a BA?

Raiven

11-07-2007, 12:40 PM

I have a practice schedule of 4 hours a day. I'd rather do that, than get drunk :thumb:

I don't drink either so :thumb:

Its two gigs, you know like seeing the competition or going out and doing other things but all involving music and mostly people from BIMM who are nice.

I would love to practise for 4 hours a day but right now I've got a three hour rehersal tonight, a 3 hour one tomorrow, 3 hours on fri and 3 on sunday. All this from being friendly with random people from the school who I've met through others.

I'm aiming for the teaching degree too as something to fall back on but I'd rather be out there doing shows and earning money from that then hiding in my halls on here all day.

Raiven

11-07-2007, 12:41 PM

How does that even work?

Surely 2 years of a foundation degree is not the same as two years of a BA?

It is. It's screwy,

Like I'm on Pro-Dip which equals first year of BA(Hons), but I have to reapply in Jan to get onto years 2 and 3 of the BA(Hons).

GAY

d-mart

11-07-2007, 01:05 PM

It is. It's screwy,

Like I'm on Pro-Dip which equals first year of BA(Hons), but I have to reapply in Jan to get onto years 2 and 3 of the BA(Hons).

GAY

Intresting.

I'm doing the BA next year either at the Institute in London or at BIMM but I'm torn between the two at the moment. Would you recommend BIMM?

Raiven

11-08-2007, 02:42 PM

Intresting.

I'm doing the BA next year either at the Institute in London or at BIMM but I'm torn between the two at the moment. Would you recommend BIMM?

The institute from a technical development perspective moves in a more advanced rate as in by Term 2 of the first year you're expected to be able to use minor modes and fully grasped the major ones while as BIMM is aiming to have that by Term 3.

So thats minor things, and the LPW at Institute was alot stricter then at BIMM, but for the social aspect and stuff BIMM is alot better as it is spread around Brighton which is smaller then London so there is a bigger vibe of community spirit and mutual musicianship, as in you can walk 5 mins down the road and bump into people from the college and such.

It really depends if you want a social based or more bedroom playing style of uni course. That and London is stupidly expensive.