13th chords, flattened 13th in minor?

[oak tree]

I remember being told that a minor 6th chord is a major 6th on top of a minor triad as if it were built off the dorian mode, if this is the case then in a minor 13th chord, should the 13th be flattened (as if it were built off the aolian or harmonic minor scales) or left unflattened (as if it were built off the dorian)?.

Thanks.

[Tizzle]

unless otherwise noted it's a natural 13th.

Now if you were looking to ADD extensions to a minor or minor 7th chord whether you should use a natural or flatted 13th depends on a certain number of things, mainly what key the song is in at the moment of the chord (as in if the change was C-7, F7, BbMaj7 you are going to be using Dorian over the C-7 because it's a ii-V7-I), and whether the melody has a natural or flat 13th. Also you should listen to whoever you might be comping with (I'm answering this as if you asked this question in a jazz context) and if they are going into extensions you should try to listen to whether they are using a flat or natural 13th. With all that said you will be walking with dorian in a minor context a majority of the time.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

It depends; Just play what your ear tells you. If flatenning the
13th sounds good and fits in, then go with it; if not, leave it unflatened.

[Left Shoe]

actually **** theory, just use your ear exclusively.

[BenJammin]

actually **** theory, just use your ear exclusively.

**** music, really. Just use your mind.

[trumpeter]

**** the mind, just throw your brain at a guitar.

[EADG]

**** instruments




no seriously




take the output jack out




widen the hole





then **** it




unless you're Ben




then you don't need to widen it

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

**** instruments




no seriously




take the output jack out




widen the hole





then **** it




unless you're Ben




then you don't need to widen it


Are you saying Ben has a pencil-d***?
That's not nice at all.

[EADG]

Are you saying Ben has a pencil-d***?
That's not nice at all.

"I'll never reach the end but I can sure bang the hell out of the sides!"

- Ben Lesser






he will probably deny that ever happened. Don't listen.

[fajitaben3]

Ok, here is a legit theory question:

Why the **** is a minor chord with a minor 6th on it considered a M7 if a major chord with a major 6th on it is considered a Maj6 and not a m7?

[EADG]

Ok, here is a legit theory question:

Why the **** is a minor chord with a minor 6th on it considered a M7 if a major chord with a major 6th on it is considered a Maj6 and not a m7?



Ummm


please reword and give examples

and just so we're clear, M7 = Maj7, m7 = min7

[fajitaben3]

and just so we're clear, M7 = Maj7, m7 = min7

Yeah, that's how I was using them. Ok I'll spell it out.

Maj6 = C E G A
Am7 = A C E G

Same notes, right? But you still say "Oh look it's a maj 6" in some situations.

Now, let's go to minor key

minb6 = A C E F
Maj7 = F A C E

Same notes, but you would never ever say "oh it's a min b6," you only call it a Maj 7.

Why?

[oak tree]

Thanks Tizzle.

It depends; Just play what your ear tells you. If flatenning the
13th sounds good and fits in, then go with it; if not, leave it unflatened.

I'm talking from an entirely theoretical approach, playing better sounding notes is just common sense. When I'm told a chord progression or handed a lead sheet and told to play, I want to know exactly what notes the chord names are referring to without resorting to amateurish noodling.

[EADG]

Yeah, that's how I was using them. Ok I'll spell it out.

Maj6 = C E G A
Am7 = A C E G

Same notes, right? But you still say "Oh look it's a maj 6" in some situations.

Now, let's go to minor key

minb6 = A C E F
Maj7 = F A C E

Same notes, but you would never ever say "oh it's a min b6," you only call it a Maj 7.

Why?

Pretty sure there's no such thing as minb6 chord


however there is a min7b13 chord which is similar
In C that's C Eb G Bb D F Ab (9 and 11 are omittable, leaving C Eb G Bb Ab, similar to chord you posted)

someone correct me if I'm wrong on that

[fajitaben3]

Pretty sure there's no such thing as minb6 chord


however there is a min7b13 chord which is similar
In C that's C Eb G Bb D F Ab (9 and 11 are omittable, leaving C Eb G Bb Ab, similar to chord you posted)

someone correct me if I'm wrong on that

You are correct, but you did not answer my question.

My question is WHY is there no such thing as a minb6 chord??? Read what I said again and keep in mind that I'm asking why is there no such thing as a minb6 chord (which would be diatonic), when there is a maj6 chord.

[EADG]

You are correct, but you did not answer my question.

My question is WHY is there no such thing as a minb6 chord??? Read what I said again and keep in mind that I'm asking why is there no such thing as a minb6 chord (which would be diatonic), when there is a maj6 chord.


because it would have a m2 in it and it would sound like ****

and the m6 doesn't really help


I think

[fajitaben3]

because it would have a m2 in it and it would sound like ****

and the m6 doesn't really help


I think

But it does not have to be voiced like that.

IT MAKES NO SENSE!! ARGH!

[EADG]

But it does not have to be voiced like that.

IT MAKES NO SENSE!! ARGH!


What doesn't? It makes perfect sense to me, or maybe I don't fully understand what you're asking


say you have a min6 chord: C Eb G Ab

voice that any way you want, it's still going to sound dissonant

[fajitaben3]

6 chords don't imply a 7, only 13th chords, why did you add the 7?

The point I am making is that they are the exact same notes as a Maj7, so those 4 notes are always going to be called a Maj7, but the notes of a Maj6 are the same as a m7.... but they are still viewed as two different chords.

[EADG]

6 chords don't imply a 7, only 13th chords, why did you add the 7?

I was thinking 13 with omitted 9 and 11

my bad

anyway, the fact that the chord is just overly dissonant is one explanation I've heard as to why min6 chords don't exist, and it makes sense to me


there might be more reasons, but I don't know if I can help you any more on the subject so ask Josh, Phil, or Adam

[fajitaben3]

Alright, thanks mang.

[HaVIC5]

To clear up.

My question is WHY is there no such thing as a minb6 chord??? Read what I said again and keep in mind that I'm asking why is there no such thing as a minb6 chord (which would be diatonic), when there is a maj6 chord.

You want to know the real answer? The real answer because there is no such thing as a minb6 chord. Chords are defined on what has become acceptable and distinctive to the collective ear over a period of time, and the minb6 just hasn't entered the vocabulary. There are several reasons why. One, our ears are extremely accustomed to the major key sound, and thats why we're more likely to interpret it as a maj7 in inversion. If you were to play a chord progression like Cm7 - Abmaj7/C, that second chord, while having all the pitches of a hypothetical m6 chord, and having only one pitch in difference with the first, would sound like a new chord over tonic pedal point that needed to resolve rather than a stable tonic chord.

Two, there would be two chord tones a minor 2nd apart, and that doesn't happen at all in western harmony. If they are a minor 2nd apart, that completely obfusctes the harmony function, and makes notes in the chord sound like harmonic tension rather than part of the solid chord tone base. You wouldn't have an augmented triad with a major 6 for this reason. (It would sound to my ears as a maj7(#5) in inversion)

There is acutally a specific occasion where you CAN have a m7(#5) or just a m(#5) and have it not sound like a major triad or dominant seventh chord in inversion, and thats in the wonderful world of line cliches. This would occur in a progression like Cm - Cm(#5) - Cm6 - Cm(#5), better known as the harmonic progression to the James Bond theme. The second chord sounds like a C minor chord because the context of the rising note in the harmony. This would be the only time you would have this rarity.

Also, you'd never see a maj6 chord in inversion, because it would then sound like its minor counterpart.

voice that any way you want, it's still going to sound dissonant

How about Ab C Eb G? That doesn't sound very dissonant, now does that?

however there is a min7b13 chord which is similar
In C that's C Eb G Bb D F Ab (9 and 11 are omittable, leaving C Eb G Bb Ab, similar to chord you posted)

someone correct me if I'm wrong on that

Sorry, dude, you're wrong. There really is no common context when a b13 will sound good on a m7 chord. It's a minor 9th away from a chord tone, so its not an available tension. Tensions, or notes that are mildy dissonant that serve to color a basic chord sound versus interfer with it, are only available (with a few exceptions) if they are a major 9th away from a chord tone. If its a minor 9th, no go. This is why you'd never have a natural 11 on a dominant or maj7 chord, or a natural 13 on an augmented 7th chord.

You also can't have a m13 in a tonal context. On a II-7 chord, the 13 is the leading tone of the tonic, and makes it sound like a dominant chord rather than a subdominant chord, and its a non-diatonic tone on a III-7 and a VI-7. Now, in a modal harmony or static harmony sort of situation, the tension 13 sounds just fine and dandy, but it resists chord progression in the functional sense pretty stubbornly.

[fajitaben3]

Ok, dude. Thanks for clearing that up, that was pretty much exactly the answer I was hoping for :]

[EADG]

How about Ab C Eb G? That doesn't sound very dissonant, now does that?



beatn :(


Sorry, dude, you're wrong. There really is no common context when a b13 will sound good on a m7 chord. It's a minor 9th away from a chord tone, so its not an available tension. Tensions, or notes that are mildy dissonant that serve to color a basic chord sound versus interfer with it, are only available (with a few exceptions) if they are a major 9th away from a chord tone. If its a minor 9th, no go. This is why you'd never have a natural 11 on a dominant or maj7 chord, or a natural 13 on an augmented 7th chord.

You also can't have a m13 in a tonal context. On a II-7 chord, the 13 is the leading tone of the tonic, and makes it sound like a dominant chord rather than a subdominant chord, and its a non-diatonic tone on a III-7 and a VI-7. Now, in a modal harmony or static harmony sort of situation, the tension 13 sounds just fine and dandy, but it resists chord progression in the functional sense pretty stubbornly.
How do you use a b13 then?

could you use it on say.. a dim or m7b5? Since the 5th would be a M9 away instead of a m9

[HaVIC5]

beatn :(


How do you use a b13 then?

could you use it on say.. a dim or m7b5? Since the 5th would be a M9 away instead of a m9
Good call there, yeah, the b13 is an available tension on diatonic (and otherwise) m7b5 chords. Its available on diminished chords too, and it is the only tension thats available on all diminished chords. Diminished chords are rather complicated, but the rule is M9 above IF that note is diatonic. So the diminished chords that you could have tension b13 on would be #Io7, #IIo7, bIIIo7, #IVo7, #Vo7 and bVIo7, who conveniently enough all have a b13 in them diatonic to the parent key.

Interesting fact about diminished chords, a lot of them have what would technically be tension major 14. Since 7 is easier to think about, we say they have tension major 7, but it really doesn't function as a 7, but as a tension.