Stem Cell Controversy

[Surtr]

So I'm doing a project on this now, a persuasive essay to be exact. And it's got me curious, what're all your opinions on it? Good or bad? Do the ends justify the means? Is it justified to create life (Cloning Embryos), take life (Killing the embryo's and taking the Stem Cells) to finally, possibly, give life (Using the Stem Cells to cure disease and Medical Problems i.e Cancer etc.).

For anyone who isn't totally sure what it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stem_cell_controversy#Controversy_of_embryonic_ste m_cell_research

I'm personally for it, as I believe it may be killing, but it's only killing of a not really conscious being and in the end it results in a possible greater good, the curing of proper conscious beings.

[PerpetualBurn]

I don't really care about embryos very much.

[silicon71]

i highly support it

[dei]

i highly support it

This.

[StrangeVision]

100% Support It.

[ssjosh]

there are other types of stem cells (somatic or adult) that don't require killing an embryo to be aquired

[Reaganista]

so?

[Unreal]

I agree,

(my father works in this)

[Knifeboy]

Where does the cloning of embryos come into this?
I'm pretty sure there's plenty of young sluts that are willing to donate

[GreyHam]

i have absolutely no problems with aborted foetuses being used for stem cell research - its a useful by-product, and loads of people have abortions

theres some serious concerns when people start producing foetus' for the purpose of stem cell research alone

[Surtr]

The only real issue is that I guess once the actual technology is there, it's possible it require a LOT of Stem Cells to be basically produce in mass for people. That's where the cloning part comes in. It's that once the actual Research is more or less complete, and it's allowed to be used in hospitals and stuff that the need for Cloning the embryos arrives.

Because then they can be produced in mass, and used to save current human lives, rather than the lives of something that has no real thought and is in a lab somewheres and it will never develop.

[big80smullet]

Im for it, but there needs to be a bit more research into it. Into the long term effects of it, if there are any, and some seriously thinking about whether we want cloning in all the hospitals. Whether it could lead to an abuse or whatever

[DBoons Ghost]

I support it 100%. Aborted fetus should be put to good use rather then sit at the bottom of a medical waste bin.

[GreyHam]

to be honest, now that i think about it, id probably support cloning foetus' for testing...

im very strongly against animal testing, but that doesnt seem to bother anyone. you can easily apply the same logic to unborn/cloned foetus'

[ringworm]

i have no problem w/stem cell research

i do have a problem with where these billion dollar companies want to to get research money from though

[Danish]

i have no problem w/stem cell research

i do have a problem with where these billion dollar companies want to to get research money from though

You bring up a good point. Stem-cell research (in fact, all scientific research) should be done within the public sphere, in the public interest. Corporations are incapable of acting in the public interest. Universities and federal research labs, however, are not.

[PerpetualBurn]

Corporations are responsible for a massive amount of medical contributions and considering the massive cost of potentially useless research and development, I don't think that subsidies are always a bad thing.

[Danish]

Corporations are responsible for a massive amount of medical contributions and considering the massive cost of potentially useless research and development, I don't think that subsidies are always a bad thing.

lol Useless research.

Corporations are responsible for virtually everything in the US. Very little is left in the public sphere. I tend to think spending money on another Restless Leg Syndrome treatment instead of some really new antibiotics is horribly misplaced. I tend to think that spending billions in taxpayer dollars to develop more efficient ways to kill people is a waste too.

Health care is more expensive in the US than anywhere else. It isn't a coincidence that it's also the only private health care system (ie. controlled by corporations) in the industrialized world. Private corporations will always undermine the public interest, so long as it's in their interest.

[PerpetualBurn]

That seems almost entirely unrelated to what I said.

And yes.

Potentially useless research and development.

[Seafroggys]

I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but I support it. I'd also believe aborted babies should be used in this regard.

[Reaganista]

i dont get why it's a good thing to subsidize useless research

[PerpetualBurn]

It's not.

Who said it was?

[Surtr]

I don't think that subsidies are always a bad thing.

lol Useless research.


And yes.

Potentially useless research and development.

You, unless you were on about something else?

[Akira]

Omg guys stem cell research is killing babies.


...

..

100% for it.

[Reaganista]

t's not.

Who said it was?
assive cost of potentially useless research and development, I don't think that subsidies are always a bad thing
idk

[PerpetualBurn]

I don't see where I said we should subsidise useless research.

[Berner]

I support all forms of testing on this and to reply to something said earlier I also support animal testing. It's a necessary "evil" (depending on your morals).

[CatfishJones]

i support it very much, and whole heartedly believe that the controversy behind it is a load of bullshit.

[WhoDidTheElf]

I heard something that rat stem cells were showing to be more useful than human ones or something along those lines? Idk if this is true, but it's something I heard.

And I support stem cell research.

[Reaganista]

I don't see where I said we should subsidise useless research.

you said subsidies are good specifically because some research is useless

[PerpetualBurn]

No I didn't.

I said some research and development into new medicines turns out to be useless, but since it's potentially incredibly useful it can sometimes be wise to ensure that an industry can actually afford to take such risks given the potential benefits.

Maybe you should look up the word potential or something.

[Reaganista]

No I didn't.

yeah you did it was your only only premise maybe you should like hit yourself in the face with a crowbar or something

[PerpetualBurn]

considering the massive cost of potentially useless research and development, I don't think that subsidies are always a bad thing.

I can't believe how many conditionals I crammed into that sentence.

Potentially useless implying potentially useful but highly risky.

[Steerpike]

There was a TV spot on Fox a couple years back. Arlen Spectre and some far right random were what passed for a debate. When confronted with the argument that we have to remember where life came from, the senator replied, "Maybe so, but myself and others are more concerned with where our life is going to end."

Those embryos are sitting in storage and will be thrown away eventually. Totally wasted. If the lifers really want to put up, they either get their women folk to carry them all to term and raise those kids (pfft, like that'd go over well), or allow them to be used for stem cell research to try and save the lives of people who are in the here and now.

[Reaganista]

Potentially useless implying potentially useful but highly risky.
i dont get why it's a good thing to subsidize useless research

[BridgeToSolace]

Useless for who?

They wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't useful to someone.

Even if it's just making it so you don't get the uncontrollable urge to move your legs when you're trying to sleep.

[PerpetualBurn]

i dont get why it's a good thing to subsidize useless research

It's not.

But when it's potentially useful, it sometimes can be.

The point is, it's not necessarily known if the research will result in something useful or not. But it's sometimes important to do it to find out.

[Reaganista]

or we could like tell them to stop researching useless stuff

[PerpetualBurn]

Until a potential treatment has been through the full line of testing it's impossible to know if it's useless.

[MegaPhony]

Something isn't useless just because the end product doesn't lead to an all-encompassing cure. For every failed experiment, that's one less possibility for another experiment so it's narrowing down onto finding the potential cure(s)

[big80smullet]

As a person with diabetes im pretty excited that i could be cured one day with stem cells. So im for it.

[lunchforthesky]

Don't give a **** about embryos, do give a **** about motor neurone disease.

Pretty easy choice.

[RIP Ian Curtis]

Man I loved Laura Bush's excuse that we shouldn't study it because we don't know if it will pay off. Way to not understand science you baptist who're.

[Berner]

Man I loved Laura Bush's excuse that we shouldn't study it because we don't know if it will pay off. Way to not understand science you baptist who're.No kidding. How is it everyone who isn't into science seem to always have the loudest voices criticizing it?

[italic zero]

What do you mean; that's not surprising at all.

[Berner]

What do you mean; that's not surprising at all.I never said it was. It's just annoying is all.

[Reaganista]

Until a potential treatment has been through the full line of testing it's impossible to know if it's useless.
except of course when even the best possibly outcome is a useless result

[italic zero]

I never said it was. It's just annoying is all.
you said it in that tone of voice

[StrangeVision]

except of course when even the best possibly outcome is a useless result

I agree, curing disease is useless...

[Danger Bird]

If you don't support stem cell research then you haven't seriously considered the issue.

[Reaganista]

I agree, curing disease is useless...
not all research is intended to cure disease
and curing some diseases is useless

[StrangeVision]

Okay, but stem cell research is, and the diseases it aims to cure are ones that should have a cure, if possible. Unless you look at those diseases as population control or something...

[Reaganista]

ya so

[StrangeVision]

Exactly...

[Smokey D]

curing some diseases is useless

Howzat?

[Berner]

you said it in that tone of voice
Best post of the year.

[Steerpike]

Man I loved Laura Bush's excuse that we shouldn't study it because we don't know if it will pay off. Way to not understand science you baptist who're.

Yeah. Her logic is that since the cures aren't right around the corner, we shouldn't even bother attempting it. Apparently, stem cell research would only give false hope, so let's not and say we did.

[PerpetualBurn]

except of course when even the best possibly outcome is a useless result

Which is why I said

I don't think that subsidies are always a bad thing.

Implying that subsidies can sometimes be a bad thing.

[Reaganista]

k
Howzat?
restless leg syndrome idk

[beso negro]

Howzat?

some diseases are more important than others. Trying to find a cure for type 2 diabetes when breast cancer is still widespread is a waste of money.

[recklessrick]

I suppose everyone is discussing stem cell research being done in the U.S.? Are there other countries doing anything ? England,Germany,Poland?

[PerpetualBurn]

some diseases are more important than others. Trying to find a cure for type 2 diabetes when breast cancer is still widespread is a waste of money.

No it's not.

[Futue te Ipsum]

there are other types of stem cells (somatic or adult) that don't require killing an embryo to be aquiredyeah, and they often choose not to use them.

odd, innit? Prizes if you guess why.

[Futue te Ipsum]

some diseases are more important than others. Trying to find a cure for type 2 diabetes when breast cancer is still widespread is a waste of money.lol no

[Reaganista]

eah, and they often choose not to use them.

odd, innit? Prizes if you guess why.
it doesn't matter

[beso negro]

No it's not.

Type 2 diabetes already has a known cure: exercise and nutrition.

[Smokey D]

No. That's preventative, not curative.

And I don't think it's obvious that fat people should suffer something as horrible as diabetes just coz they got fat.

[PerpetualBurn]

Type 2 diabetes already has a known cure: exercise and nutrition.

Do you think I won't know if you just make stuff up?

Especially stuff that's irrelevant to your initial point.

[Seafroggys]

You're a moron.

My best friend got diabetes when he turned 11, and he was one of the skinniest and most active kids I knew. Hell, he's still pretty skinny, but more muscle mass.

[spitfirejunky]

beso negro doesn't exactly have a handle on any branch of biology.

[wang masta flex]

stem cell research ++ nothin more to it

anyone who says otherwise is a Christian

[RIP Ian Curtis]

You're a moron.

My best friend got diabetes when he turned 11, and he was one of the skinniest and most active kids I knew. Hell, he's still pretty skinny, but more muscle mass.

Type two is the fat one. Your mate probably has type one.

[beso negro]

You're a moron.

My best friend got diabetes when he turned 11, and he was one of the skinniest and most active kids I knew. Hell, he's still pretty skinny, but more muscle mass.

lets make it clear here, we are talking about type 2 diabetes.


Do you think I won't know if you just make stuff up?

google is your friend. don't be afraid to research.

No. That's preventative, not curative.

And I don't think it's obvious that fat people should suffer something as horrible as diabetes just coz they got fat.

i think so :p

[PerpetualBurn]

If I actually searched google then it would say that there's no cure for diabetes.

[beso negro]

well i've witnessed it before my eyes. with the right attitude, the right diet, and proper exercise the body can overcome a lot. I saw a documentary last month about a women who overcame a rare cancer with the said regimen.

But with that said, we should research stem cells. Especially if we can get them from unfertilized human egg cells.

[PerpetualBurn]

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

[big80smullet]

well i've witnessed it before my eyes. with the right attitude, the right diet, and proper exercise the body can overcome a lot. I saw a d0cumentary last month about a women who overcame a rare cancer with the said regimen.

But with that said, we should research stem cells. Especially if we can get them from unfertilized human egg cells.

So if i go on a diet and do lots of exercise and have a positive attitude, my pancreas will start producing insulin again? I think not. Excersize and diet will help with control but wont cure diabetes. And for the record once type 2 diabetes has started it doesnt just go away with excersize either. its a long term problem.

Type 2 is preventable if youre not a fat ****. Type 1 which i have and most yuong people have, hence the name infant onset diabetes has no known cause or cure. Theoretically if the isles of langerhans could be rejuveated with stem cells sufferers wouldnt be insulin dependant anymore. This is why stem cell reaserch is important.

The other thing to think about when talking about this stuff is that while motor nuerone disease and others like that are pretty horrific, there are so many more diabetics in the world. Diabetes affects 7% of the population of america. Thats over 20 millon people. Only around 1 in 20,000. So curing diabetes would save america alone around 1.5 billion a year.

Im not saying that diabetes is the most important disease to be cured. All diseases are just as important but there are other factor involved than how quickly they kill you or how glamourous a disease is percieved to be by the media.

[RIP Ian Curtis]

Curing type 2 diabtetes and cholesterol related heart disease is the most logical option. Seeing as they're the diseases that affect those with money and power (and gigantic arses).

[PerpetualBurn]

As ever prevention is better than cure.

But that doesn't mean there's any reason not to look at curing type 2 diabetes.

[beso negro]

So if i go on a diet and do lots of exercise and have a positive attitude, my pancreas will start producing insulin again? I think not. Excersize and diet will help with control but wont cure diabetes. And for the record once type 2 diabetes has started it doesn't just go away with excersize either. its a long term problem.

but most people with type 2 secrete insulin, they are just resistant to it. Otherwise they wouldn't be overweight. http://drbass.com/rosedale2.html . dr rosedale has some nice work on "curing" type 2 diabetes.

Type 2 is preventable if you're not a fat ****.

losing weight will cut a fat persons risk for type 2 diabetes significantly.

The other thing to think about when talking about this stuff is that while motor nuerone disease and others like that are pretty horrific, there are so many more diabetics in the world. Diabetes affects 7% of the population of america. Thats over 20 millon people. Only around 1 in 20,000. So curing diabetes would save america alone around 1.5 billion a year.

yea thats true, the money is a factor. but if people continue to eat **** and watch tv will it matter?

[big80smullet]

Well type 2 is preventable and mostly curable. But type 1 isnt. There are millions of people with type 1 in the world. So curing it wouldn't be a waste of time.

[Smokey D]

There's absolutely no reason that preventable diseases should not be cured should they occur.

AIDS is preventable for God's sake, but we're still trying to find a cure.

Also, lol at the idea that you can actually cure cancer with exercise. It doesn't really work that way -- you can extend your survival time substantially, though and staying in shape is a pretty good preventative.

[Seafroggys]

As ever prevention is better than cure.

How so?

[Reaganista]

because then you dont get sick

[Seafroggys]

true but that doesn't mean a cure is less important then a vaccine.

[RIP Ian Curtis]

Cure is better than prevention if prevention is too hard. I.E better of curing that preventing AIDS coz you can't stop Africans humping.

[Futue te Ipsum]

well i've witnessed it before my eyes. with the right attitude, the right diet, and proper exercise the body can overcome a lot. I saw a d0cumentary last month about a women who overcame a rare cancer with the said regimen.

But with that said, we should research stem cells. Especially if we can get them from unfertilized human egg cells.OMG YOU SAW A DOCUMENTAAAARY

I've seen some on homeopathy, creationism and psychic powers. They're still all rubbish.

Get a **** filter in your mind.

[PerpetualBurn]

true but that doesn't mean a cure is less important then a vaccine.

If there's a vaccine then it's obviously the better option to never get a disease in the first place.

Cure is better than prevention if prevention is too hard. I.E better of curing that preventing AIDS coz you can't stop Africans humping.

Except an HIV vaccine would be even better.

[Danish]

What is everyone arguing about?

[PerpetualBurn]

I don't know.

I just know I'm right.

[beso negro]

Well type 2 is preventable and mostly curable. But type 1 isnt. There are millions of people with type 1 in the world. So curing it wouldn't be a waste of time.

i agree.

Also, lol at the idea that you can actually cure cancer with exercise.

not just exercise. http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=3500637&page=1

[Danish]

I don't know.

I just know I'm right.

What else is new! ;)

[PerpetualBurn]

not just exercise. http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=3500637&page=1

Malkmus acknowledges that he never had a biopsy, but insists, "I had a tumor that was self-evident. I was bleeding from the rectum."

I lol'd.

edit:

Such anecdotal claims are difficult to verify, of course, and Malkmus himself is careful not to promise miracles. "I don't believe the Hallelujah Diet can cure anybody of anything."

I lol'd again.

Best source ever?

[ssjosh]

yeah, and they often choose not to use them.

odd, innit? Prizes if you guess why.

There's really not many benefits of embryonic over adult. If anything adult stem cells are much more promising than embyonic cells as embryonic use has encountered more failure

http://www.lifeissues.org/cloningstemcell/bradsarticle.html

[Danish]

There's really not many benefits of embryonic over adult. If anything adult stem cells are much more promising than embyonic cells as embryonic use has encountered more failure

http://www.lifeissues.org/cloningstemcell/bradsarticle.html

Yea, great source... :rolleyes:

[ssjosh]

Sorry I was just being really lazy. Here are some more credible sources:

http://www.utoronto.ca/bioethic/Documents/CheckTheScore.pdf (capitalize the D and make the 0 an o). -this basically sums up my argument. At the bottom there is a link for the references

http://www.bioethics.gov/background/prentice_paper.html

[big80smullet]

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=3500637&page=1

That was the most pathetic doco ive ever seen. Hes never had a biopsy, he just had anal bleeding. Man i get anal bleeding whenever i do a massive ****. Maybe its cancer! oh noes :amaze:

[Reaganista]

maybe it is...

[Dave de Sylvia]

I lol'd.

edit:



I lol'd again.

Best source ever?
My favourite part is from their website:

You also have plenty of documentation from scientific research that confirms the Biblical wisdom of The Hallelujah Diet, plus even more evidence that supports the benefits of the Hallelujah Diet & Lifestyle.
Wow, I'm convinced... don't even show me the sources! Oh, you weren't going to anyway? OK!

[Futue te Ipsum]

There's really not many benefits of embryonic over adult. If anything adult stem cells are much more promising than embyonic cells as embryonic use has encountered more failure

http://www.lifeissues.org/cloningstemcell/bradsarticle.htmlGet a grip, mate. Seriously, it takes the piss when people consider such things a credible source.

[ssjosh]

if you look here
Sorry I was just being really lazy. Here are some more credible sources:

http://www.utoronto.ca/bioethic/d0cuments/CheckTheScore.pdf (capitalize the D and make the 0 an o). -this basically sums up my argument. At the bottom there is a link for the references

http://www.bioethics.gov/background/prentice_paper.html

[Mr. Ron]

I support it. **** the lifers, they can remain diseased in the future when this really takes off. (if it does).

[ringworm]

many confuse people who dont want gvnt funded research as people who dont want research at all :/

[Danish]

Just because it's on a U of T server doesn't make it academic! And that last source was produced by the White House... :lol:

Your argument starts with the faith-based premise that life starts at conception, a position I ultimately reject.

[Mr. Ron]

Danish its true, socialists are sexier.


Democratic socialists though. >:^(

[Futue te Ipsum]

many confuse people who dont want gvnt funded research as people who dont want research at all :/In some areas of science they're pretty close to the same thing.

[ringworm]

i was just trying to debunk the "I am against = I am some religious idiot" catch phrase

Bush wont let legislature get through because they are filled with gvnt spending (our money) not because he is against the the research itself. I think the history of wasteful gvnt spending should lend enough that if good research is needed, let the billion dollar companies invest in it. I think the results would be better and faster if said researcher wasnt getting blanks checks.

But with that said, I also realize that if we didnt spend trillions on ways to kill people more effectively, we may not be having this discussion at all.

I always ride the fence on most issues, I see good and bad on both

I am for stem cell research, btw, just not with taxpayer money at the present time. Much reform and other issues need to be resolved first, imo.
Iraq, Alternative Energy, Health Care, Politcial Reform, yadda, yadda yadda :)

[Dave de Sylvia]

I don't think Bush is that opposed to wasteful government spending.

[Akira]

Every time people talking about noting wasting taxpayer dollars on things *coughSCHIPcough* I pretty much start to cry thinking about how much good stuff we could do in America if we weren't wasting billions in Iraq.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Not even Iraq, just in general, the neocon wing of the Republicans are big government proponents, even if they say otherwise.

[big80smullet]

I think the world as a whole would be better of if money weren't being spent on arms. Imagine the good that money could do in africe. Not to mention the devastation that wouldn't have occured in the first place.

[lfantwister]

until one person invented a gun and then there was no type of defense for everybody else

[Reaganista]

one guy with a gun would lose to everybody else

[Mr. Ron]

unless he had hax

[Akira]

Not even Iraq, just in general, the neocon wing of the Republicans are big government proponents, even if they say otherwise.

That's very true, it's just that Iraq blows most other things that the government wastes money out of the water on both in the amount of money spent and the uselessness of the spending.

[Futue te Ipsum]

I am for stem cell research, btw, just not with taxpayer money at the present time. Much reform and other issues need to be resolved first, imo.
Iraq, Alternative Energy, Health Care, Politcial Reform, yadda, yadda yadda :)Try to understand why I would think you're basing these priorities on a misunderstanding of how science works.

[ringworm]

huh?