Mao - An Inquiry into History

[Swiftay]

I am currently working on a project for my IB Social class in which I must write a 2000 word essay analyzing and debating a key element of a dictator's regime (I chose Mao).

For example, last year I wrote an inquiry into whether or not Canada's role in the Cuban Missile Crisis was significant (should've said 'existent':rolleyes:) or not.

However, it can't be overly broad, such as debating whether or not Mao was a good or bad leader. Sillyness!

So I've come here for ideas about some of the debatable topics that you coolguys know exist, that i may not, in regards to Mao (obviously).

Go!!

[StreetlightRock]

-In what ways did Mao adapt Marxism to China's own situation (to create Maoism), and how effectively did it apply itself to China's history.

Theres a question i'd love to write about. Expect I can't. Oh yesh, btw, this is my second semester studying Chinese history so yeah =)

[griftadan]

write about how his economic reforms effected a largely agrarian socieity

[Independent_CA]

What about how he liked underage girls?

[Dave de Sylvia]

Write about the problems inherent in translating his name to English, using examples of other weirdly-named leaders to back up your points.

[Det_Nosnip]

What was Mao's relationship with the Cultural Revolution?

I'll warn you, though...anything dealing with the Cultural Revolution is INCREDIBLY complex, and alot of the most important sources aren't readily available in the west/in English.

Hence why most people completely misunderstand the period...

[Danish]

I am currently working on a project for my IB Social class in which I must write a 2000 word essay analyzing and debating a key element of a dictator's regime (I chose Mao).

For example, last year I wrote an inquiry into whether or not Canada's role in the Cuban Missile Crisis was significant (should've said 'existent':rolleyes:) or not.

However, it can't be overly broad, such as debating whether or not Mao was a good or bad leader. Sillyness!

So I've come here for ideas about some of the debatable topics that you coolguys know exist, that i may not, in regards to Mao (obviously).

Go!!

Eww IB. High school is about slacking off as hard as possible, not doing more work than you have to!

[recklessrick]

China was a sad place before Mao took over,the Japanese were tearing the people and the country apart like the Nazi's did to Europe.Chiang kia Sheck(sic) was the other guy chasing Mao around China.He wanted a truce with the Japs and he would control the Opium.
That drug was also killing China thanks to the English.I'm living in Dalian China now so if you want to know more ask, if you don't thats cool too.

[Smokey D]

More Chinese people died during Mao's rule than during WW II.

[recklessrick]

More Chinese people died during Mao's rule than during WW II.

Who said that?

[StreetlightRock]

Erm. No one really had to say it. It just... you know. Happened.

Also, what sort of 'truce' did Chaing kai-sheck ever want with the Japs?

[Smokey D]

I'll admit, the exact numbers remain unclear, but we do know several million (probably in excess of 20 million -- possibly up to 60 million) died as a result of Mao's agricultural policies, among other things.

[Dave de Sylvia]

You're misunderstanding the original sources.

[Smokey D]

How?

[recklessrick]

Erm. No one really had to say it. It just... you know. Happened.

Also, what sort of 'truce' did Chaing kai-sheck ever want with the Japs?

"It just sort of happened" thats redundant,but true, starvation.The U.S. and Chiangs general staff told him the Japs were more of a problem than Mao. Gen. Stilwell called Chiang "little peanut".He never got the truce he wanted with the japs.Just as I said Tokyo can control the industrial north of China and C.K.S. would take over the south where they grow the s--t.

[StreetlightRock]

If CKS wanted a truce it was to bide his time and get rid of the Communists. He would have been much too proud to let the Japanese remain on Chinese soil, North or South. Still, this counterfactual argument is useless - when in the world did CKS seek out a truce with the Japanese?

[recklessrick]

If CKS wanted a truce it was to bide his time and get rid of the Communists. He would have been much too proud to let the Japanese remain on Chinese soil, North or South. Still, this counterfactual argument is useless - when in the world did CKS seek out a truce with the Japanese?

He was thinking of a truce as I said but he was convinced otherwise.He betrayed the communists in Shanghai in the 20's with the help of the Greengang.But it never materialized,that truce.C.H.K. knew he couldn't beat the japs,so if you can't beat em' join em'.

[recklessrick]

What about how he liked underage girls?

Whats the legal age in China? Do you know for a fact or is this something that sort of just happened?

[Smokey D]

He was taking the piss.


He was thinking of a truce as I said but he was convinced otherwise.He betrayed the communists in Shanghai in the 20's with the help of the Greengang.But it never materialized,that truce.C.H.K. knew he couldn't beat the japs,so if you can't beat em' join em'.

He didn't betray the Communists to the Japanese, though.

Chiang was an arsehole, but Mao wasn't perfect either. And as far as I'm aware, neither of them seriously contemplated surrendering to the Japanese, especially after America became involved.

[StreetlightRock]

You still haven't substantiated that claim. And until you do, all the evidence is completely against you. The leader of the Chinese Nationalist Party thinking of a truce with the Japanese, of all people? You should know Chinese history better than that. And CHK wansn't stupid, he was in contact with the Allies, he knew damn well that the Japs were under huge pressure in the Pacific, even if the mainland fighting wasn't going anywhere. He neither had to beat nor join them, just wait - exactly what he did.

[recklessrick]

C.K.S. was 2 biscuits short of a full picnic.I said he wasn't going to surrender he wanted a truce.There was a world wide depression the U.S. had better things to worry about and the people of the U.S. were more worried about prohibition than anything.Mao was the guerrilla warfare wizard. Chiang got his *** whopped from that very practice in 1947.His wife Madame
Chiang she was the catalyst that moved the yanks into sympathy.The A.V.G. was one of her successes.

[Smokey D]

What does that have to do with anything?

Chiang was one of the strongest resisters of the Japanese, and pretty much lost China because of the losses they inflicted on his troops because of it.

There was a world wide depression the U.S. had better things to worry about and the people of the U.S. were more worried about prohibition than anything

Your timing is out by about 20 years, you know.

[StreetlightRock]

That +

Mao was the guerrilla warfare wizard. Chiang got his *** whopped from that very practice in 1947.

By 1947 the Communists troops were no longer using guerrilla tactics, they were conducting fully fledged attacks under the generalship of Lin Piao. In fact, Chiang never got his *** kicked by Guerilla tactics, they only served to keep the Communists alive. He almost destroyed the communists AGAIN in Jaing Xi which was why they were forced on the long march.

[recklessrick]

That +



By 1947 the Communists troops were no longer using guerrilla tactics, they were conducting fully fledged attacks under the generalship of Lin Piao. In fact, Chiang never got his *** kicked by Guerilla tactics, they only served to keep the Communists alive. He almost destroyed the communists AGAIN in Jaing Xi which was why they were forced on the long march.

That was in the thirties, the long march, your off now.

[recklessrick]

O.K. We're getting carried away here.Yes Chiang was a patriot no doubt about that, and he wound up on tiny little Formosa with his K.M.T.and the U.S. blessings.So the big guy won and history belongs to the winner,end of story.

[StreetlightRock]

That was in the thirties, the long march, your off now.

I know that, i was using as a demonstration as to how Mao didn't use Gureilla tactics to 'kick anyones a'ss'.

[recklessrick]

My mistake i admit but Mao, one mans liberator is anothers dictator.He got China slowly on its feet and today with the BOOMING economy "chuckle" it has become a cinderella story.His reforms were not too bad but they could have been better,and avoided all that suffering .IMO no leader will ever please everyone, anywhere.But he was what China needed at the time.

[StreetlightRock]

Sort of. Mao stifled his own creation. His ideological crusades against the CCPs bureaucracy and his obsession with with the power of the mass line and 'the people' resulted in some pretty abominable things. I wont argue that the Communist party didn't kick start China down the path toward modernization and give it a means to finally enforce its own sovereignty, but the 'Cinderella' story was as bitter and cruel as as anything before it.

[Smokey D]

My mistake i admit but Mao, one mans liberator is anothers dictator.He got China slowly on its feet and today with the BOOMING economy "chuckle" it has become a cinderella story.His reforms were not too bad but they could have been better,and avoided all that suffering .IMO no leader will ever please everyone, anywhere.But he was what China needed at the time.

It was Deng Xiaoping, not Mao whose reforms led to the China we see today. The Great Leap Forward, Mao's most significant contribution to the economy, was pretty much an unmitigated failure.

[recklessrick]

It was Deng Xiaoping, not Mao whose reforms led to the China we see today. The Great Leap Forward, Mao's most significant contribution to the economy, was pretty much an unmitigated failure.

Mao had to start from square one and put the country on its feet thats all I said whatever one of his homeboys like deng did later on is a different story we were

talking about Mao,now tell me his failures and rumors about him like someone mentioned pedaphelia from SoCal of all places.

[Smokey D]

Mao had to start from square one and put the country on its feet thats all I said whatever one of his homeboys like deng did later on is a different story we were

But Mao's reforms didn't put China on its feet. They almost destroyed it.


talking about Mao,now tell me his failures and rumors about him like someone mentioned pedaphelia from SoCal of all places.

What do you mean?

[recklessrick]

But Mao's reforms didn't put China on its feet. They almost destroyed it.



What do you mean?

What particular reforms are you talking about?I need to know.

The wanker from SoCal the pedophile capital of the world said Mao was into young girls, It's great to be king. More of a joke.
I am here in China right now in the bustling metropolis of Dalian at Dah Why U.and I just need to know your side of things is all.so what reforms are you talking about?

[Smokey D]

What particular reforms are you talking about?I need to know.

The Great Leap Forward, mainly. To a lesser extent, the Cultural Revolution.


The wanker from SoCal the pedophile capital of the world said Mao was into young girls, It's great to be king. More of a joke.

It was a joke. Don't take it so seriously


I am here in China right now in the bustling metropolis of Dalian at Dah Why U.and I just need to know your side of things is all.so what reforms are you talking about?

China owes very little of its current success to what Mao did.

[recklessrick]

The cultural revo was not a reform,what part of the greateap are you talking about?

[Smokey D]

The Cultural Revolution was an attempt at rolling back alleged revisionism by Deng Xiaoping and Liu Shaoqi, which I think is close enough to a reform.

what part of the greateap are you talking about?

The part where between 20 and 40 million people starved because of shoddy agricultural practises.

[recklessrick]

The Cultural Revolution was an attempt at rolling back alleged revisionism by Deng Xiaoping and Liu Shaoqi, which I think is close enough to a reform.



The part where between 20 and 40 million people starved because of shoddy agricultural practises.

So in your opinion Mao was s--t.

[Smokey D]

More or less.

You can be **** and very successful at some other things, at the same time, though.

[recklessrick]

More or less.

You can be **** and very successful at some other things, at the same time, though.

I get it now... you have your propaganda and we have ours.Cultural revolution was close you said, yeah; but no cigar, its a holiday fellas "golden week" and i"m out of here, nice talking with you and stay happy in your days to come.The guy who wrote this thread wanted to know about Mao so I gave him a view from this side thats all,take it or leave it it's up to you.

What was Bush successful at?

[Smokey D]

Well, some of it's propaganda no doubt, but it doesn't pay to vindicate someone for failures as collosal as Mao's because it might be propaganda.



What was Bush successful at?

Not very much, as far as I know.

The guy who wrote this thread wanted to know about Mao so I gave him a view from this side thats all,take it or leave it it's up to you.

This is a forum for debate, not repetition of dogmas. Expect and relish that we can have these convesations.

[RIP Ian Curtis]

I find Mao to be pretty much the prime example of the best possible war-time leader being a terrible peace-time leader.

[Swiftay]

Haha wow, my thread got totally jacked.

Quickly, someone summarize the debate that just ensued between Recklessrick and Smokey D/StreetlightRock

perhaps it can be my Historical Inquiry?

What is all this about the Japanese pwning China before Mao's rule? Where do I research it? I MUST KNOW!

and what is this silliness about the U.S involvement? I don't recall having heard much about any involvement of theirs.

[Swiftay]

Write about the problems inherent in translating his name to English, using examples of other weirdly-named leaders to back up your points.

hahaha you win.

the proper way is most certainly Mao Zi Dong though.

trust me, I lived in Beijing for 3 years! (credibility!... sort of)

Mao Tse Tung makes my eyes bleed

ignore this post though! read the one above!

[StreetlightRock]

Ok, first things first, go grab a copy of Maurice Meisner's Mao's China and After (3rd Ed preferably) for possibly the best written history of the Communist period, and then a copy of either Johnathan D. Spence The Search for Modern China or Immanuel Hsu's The Rise of Modern China. Thats pretty much an introductory reading on Chinese History, right there. It is ridiculously complicated, and way to much to really explain in any forum post. Good Luck.

[Smokey D]

What is all this about the Japanese pwning China before Mao's rule? Where do I research it? I MUST KNOW!

Well, Japan pretty much owned Northern China between 1937 and 1945, and had done significant damage to the South (especially Canton/Guangzhou). Most of China was under some sort of suzerainty to Japan.

and what is this silliness about the U.S involvement? I don't recall having heard much about any involvement of theirs.

As in WWII. The War in the Pacific and the War in Asia can't be separated.

[Unreal]

write about how his economic reforms effected a largely agrarian socieity

lol......not this



write how he manipulated the uneducated, and sent the educated to get "reeducated".

[Unreal]

Well, Japan pretty much owned Northern China between 1937 and 1945, and had done significant damage to the South (especially Canton/Guangzhou). Most of China was under some sort of suzerainty to Japan.


The last Chinese emperor was a Japanese pawn(i think)

[Smokey D]

Sorta. China had already become a republic, but the Japanese restored Pu Yi as a puppet emperor over Manchuria (named Manchukuo by the Japanese).

[Det_Nosnip]

As in WWII. The War in the Pacific and the War in Asia can't be separated.

There was also the whole supporting a brutal fascist dictator who wanted to run the country like a barracks (oh, right...fascist) over a popularly supported but communist leader thing.

Good thing we learned our lesson there...

[Det_Nosnip]

What is all this about the Japanese pwning China before Mao's rule? Where do I research it? I MUST KNOW!


Rape of Nanking? No? 3 years in Beijing...nothing?! :eek:

[RIP Ian Curtis]

Man the Chinese know how to hold a grudge. Woe betide Japan if/when they become a real superpower.

[Smokey D]

Nothing will happen because Japan is under the US's nuclear umbrella.

Not to mention Japan can probably take on the Chinese by itself and mop the floor, and is likely to possess a significant qualitative advantage for years to come. Also, the economies of the two countries are too bound up in one another. The flashpoints in Asia are North Korea and especially Taiwan, not the Sea of Japan.

[RIP Ian Curtis]

Talk to many Chinese? Actually basically everyone in Asia except for the Japanese hate the everliving fu'ck out of the Japanese. Even the South Koreans despise them.

[Reaganista]

wtf does that have to do with anything

[RIP Ian Curtis]

Someone brought up the rape of Nanking, I happened to be talking to a Chinese feller a few days ago and the Japanese came up, he expressed undying hatred for them. Just making conversation man.

[italic zero]

so is greece going to invade turkey now

[RIP Ian Curtis]

Orright, give it 25 years and see if I'm right.

[recklessrick]

Someone brought up the rape of Nanking, I happened to be talking to a Chinese feller a few days ago and the Japanese came up, he expressed undying hatred for them. Just making conversation man.

It's like mention Nazis and the Holocaust to an isreali and see the reaction.Same thing with Japan as the nazis of asia, but they got away with the **** they did.The olny thing Japs gave to the world is Sushi and Bukkakee.

[Smokey D]

Not many Israelis want to destroy the modern state of Germany, though. There is a difference in how Japan hasn't really come to terms with what it did, though, I guess.

Japan has given the world a lot, while also having some deplorable periods in its history. Pretty much like the rest of the world.

[Reaganista]

Someone brought up the rape of Nanking, I happened to be talking to a Chinese feller a few days ago and the Japanese came up, he expressed undying hatred for them. Just making conversation man.
it doesnt matter how much the chinese hate the japanese they cant do anything about it

[Dave de Sylvia]

It's like mention Nazis and the Holocaust to an isreali and see the reaction.Same thing with Japan as the nazis of asia, but they got away with the **** they did.
Not to be pedantic or anything, but they got nuked twice.

[recklessrick]

it doesnt matter how much the chinese hate the japanese they cant do anything about it

Thats what you think.

[Reaganista]

well yeah it's what i think but i only think it because it's true

[Smokey D]

Thats what you think.

Japan has probably has the most high tech military in the world except for maybe the US. Its weapons are lightyears ahead of most of the PLAs, except for some very highly trained units. And it's under the protection of the US. China can't touch Japan without the CCP being destroyed.

Not that it'd want to anyway, because Japan is China's biggest investor.

[recklessrick]

Smokey D how the hell are you? I'm back to stir up more **** .
Anyways, all the Japanese leave here and go home for the weekend.There was a part of this town during the war (ww2) where only Japs could live and Chinese were not allowed to go thru the area without Permission. Like a Warsaw ghetto type of deal.The street also had the Nazi consolate there too.It has been restored but it is painted gold and yellow it now looks like a cat house.When the Russians came and liberated Dolly-N they took everything that wasn't nailed down. jap street is a tourist attraction now.

[Smokey D]

Smokey D how the hell are you?

I'm good. How was your holiday?

I agree that what the Japanese did to China and Korea was terrible, but I don't think that's reason enough for the CCP to even contemplate declaring war at the moment.

[recklessrick]

Who said anything about a war?

[italic zero]

That Australian guy did

[recklessrick]

That Australian guy did

Australia is a sweet place nice people and country,too bad they can't play cricket anymore.

[italic zero]

Yes, it is a shame.

[StreetlightRock]

Ill fight you. Both.

[recklessrick]

You win

[RIP Ian Curtis]

That Australian guy did

I did put the proviso "if/when they become a proper superpower" on the statement.

[recklessrick]

Smokey D what do you know of the Hung Way Bing, or Red Guard?

[Smokey D]

What do you mean what do I think about them?

Like, were they nice guys or did they as a group have a positive effect on China?

I did put the proviso "if/when they become a proper superpower" on the statement.

Even then I doubt there would be a war. China would need to overwhelm the main islands within a week to prevent a pretty savage counter attack, and as I say the US seems set to maintain a large presence in Japan (and therefore includes it in its nuclear umbrella). If anything, there'd be a cold war style decline in relations, but because Japan has so much money in China, I don't know if that'd work either.

[recklessrick]

Not too many folks here like to mention these guys.But they are a part of the subject of Mao and thats what the dood who started this thread wanted to know.was Mao.right.
Whats this talk about war? China will fight with money not bullets doyou think there's some kind of trouble?

[Reaganista]

no china couldn't beat japan with money or bullets

[RIP Ian Curtis]

Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part. Meh.

[recklessrick]

[QUOTE=Reaganista;15374390]no china couldn't beat japan with money or bullets[/QUOTE

Becausa you say it's true right?

[Smokey D]

Nah man, he's saying it because it's true.

It's not an indictment of China or anything. It just happens to be the case that in this stage of China and Japan's development, Japan is much richer and much more technologically advanced so it is much better suited to winning a war -- especially a defensive one.

If China tried to fight Japan with money, it'd still lose since Japan is China's biggest investor and if it withdrew its money, the Chinese economy would collapse.

[Det_Nosnip]

one of his homeboys like deng did later on is a different story we were
To call Deng Xiaoping Mao's "homeboy" is to completely misunderstand everything that happened during that time period. Deng Xiaoping was Mao's arch nemesis.

[Det_Nosnip]

Someone brought up the rape of Nanking, I happened to be talking to a Chinese feller a few days ago and the Japanese came up, he expressed undying hatred for them. Just making conversation man.

Well, it's sort of like Jewish hatred for modern day Germans. Completely unjustified, yet at the same time, completely understandable.

[Det_Nosnip]

It's like mention Nazis and the Holocaust to an isreali and see the reaction.Same thing with Japan as the nazis of asia, but they got away with the **** they did.The olny thing Japs gave to the world is Sushi and Bukkakee.

Ha, missed your beating me to the comparison...while I'm at it, I should probably point out that you're completely wrong and are obviously a huge racist.

[recklessrick]

Whenever I make sense you run and call me names I DON"T CARE. I will keep saying what I believe.

[Det_Nosnip]

Whenever I make sense you run and call me names I DON"T CARE. I will keep saying what I believe.

I've interacted with you once.

Let me get this straight...you believe that the Japanese were the "Nazis of Asia." I don't have a problem with that comparison.

It's the second part that I take issue with. "The olny [sic] thing Japs [sic] gave to the world is Sushi and Bukkakee."

This could not be further from the truth and is, quite frankly, ridiculous. The Japan of today is not the Japan of 1942, just like the Germany of today is not Nazi Germany.

[philly96]

I'll put my individual assignment about Mao on here. It was for modern history. Hopefully, it'll tell some ppl stuff.

[StreetlightRock]

So today i was at Circular Quay (Thats where the Opera House is for you non-Australians), and there was this huge Burmese Anti-Chinese Protest. Boycott the Olympics and a whole bunch of stuff. Erm. Yea. Got a Bottle of Ouzo (Greek alcamahol) and a Model Lamborghini Diablo from some friends as well. Erm. Yea. Carry On.

[philly96]

Which ouzo (Dry, sweet or the other one)?

[Reaganista]

ouzo is ****ing gross

[Iskandar]

Yes it is.

[StreetlightRock]

Ill get my Spartan brothers to destroy you all. Not too sure about which one though, i hardly drink Ouzo and haven't tasted it yet.

[Swiftay]

I'll put my individual assignment about Mao on here. It was for modern history. Hopefully, it'll tell some ppl stuff.

Where is this assignment you speak of!

Certainly not "up here" as you said it would be!

ANGER!

[Swiftay]

by the way, I've decided to inquire as to whether Mao's various economic reforms (mainly The Great Leap Forward) were beneficial based on the idea that they brought China out of the Qing dynasty and into the modern world, or detrimental based on the idea that... well.... they were stupid as hell. (may have to word this differently)

KILL DA SPARROWZ --> http://youtube.com/watch?v=efBQKHOfW60

if you think that's a terrible idea, I can still change it, however give me a clear question and describe the nature of the debate. Remember it's only 2500 words.

Now that i think of it, this topic might be a little big for 2500 words... I'll consult my teacher.

[StreetlightRock]

Erm, i hope you mean brought China into modernity. Because the quing dynasty actualy has a date in which it fell - 1911. Unless you're talking about some general 'Quing Mindset'. In which case, well, still, its pretty much widely accepted that The Great Leap foward went pear shaped and resulted in nothing but bad things.

[Swiftay]

Erm, i hope you mean brought China into modernity. Because the quing dynasty actualy has a date in which it fell - 1911. Unless you're talking about some general 'Quing Mindset'. In which case, well, still, its pretty much widely accepted that The Great Leap foward went pear shaped and resulted in nothing but bad things.

yeah, it did go pear shaped, but the argument is that if Mao HADN'T been there, would China still be ruled under an ancient feudal system, well behind other modern nations (economically); or would it have been better off if he wasn't there and would it still be a rising economic power that it is turning out to be today.

And yes, i realize his reforms were terrible, and that is precisely the key point of the whole debate!

See what I'm saying?

:EDIT:

forgot to mention, yes i know the Qing dynasty actually literally fell in 1911, but it wasn't until Mao that anything really happened. amirite?

[RIP Ian Curtis]

So perhaps it would be better to compare Chiang Kia Shek (excuse spelling) and Mao?

[Smokey D]

forgot to mention, yes i know the Qing dynasty actually literally fell in 1911, but it wasn't until Mao that anything really happened. amirite?

Well, lots of stuff had happened but it's arguable that China would still be incredibly underdeveloped without Mao's reforms. Of course, China was still pretty underdeveloped after Mao's reforms and didn't really start to develop until 1978 anyway.

[Swiftay]

Well, lots of stuff had happened but it's arguable that China would still be incredibly underdeveloped without Mao's reforms. Of course, China was still pretty underdeveloped after Mao's reforms and didn't really start to develop until 1978 anyway.

Precisely!