Ahmadinejad vs President of Columbia

[Hababi]

Yeah we already have an Ahmadinejad thread, but this is too cool to relegate to inside another thread.

"Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad questioned the official version of the Sept. 11 attacks and defended the right to cast doubt on the Holocaust in a tense appearance at Columbia University, whose president accused the hard-line leader of behaving like "a petty and cruel dictator."
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Ahmadinejad smiled at first but appeared increasingly agitated, decrying the "insults" and "unfriendly treatment." Columbia President Lee Bollinger and audience members took him to task over Iran's human-rights record and foreign policy, as well as Ahmadinejad's statements denying the Holocaust and calling for the disappearance of Israel.

"Mr. President, you exhibit all the signs of a petty and cruel dictator," Bollinger said, to loud applause.

He said Ahmadinejad's denial of the Holocaust might fool the illiterate and ignorant.

"When you come to a place like this it makes you simply ridiculous," Bollinger said. "The truth is that the Holocaust is the most documented event in human history."

Ahmadinejad rose, also to applause, and after a religious invocation, said Bollinger's opening was "an insult to information and the knowledge of the audience here."

"There were insults and claims that were incorrect, regretfully," Ahmadinejad said, accusing Bollinger of falling under the influence of the hostile U.S. press and politicians. "I should not begin by being affected by this unfriendly treatment."

During a question and answer session, Ahmadinejad appeared tense and unsmiling, in contrast to more relaxed interviews and appearances earlier in the day.

In response to one audience, Ahmadinejad denied he was questioning the existence of the Holocaust: "Granted this happened, what does it have to do with the Palestinian people?"

But then he said he was defending the rights of European scholars, an apparent reference to a small number who have been prosecuted under national laws for denying or minimizing the Holocaust.

"There's nothing known as absolute," he said.

He reiterated his desire to visit ground zero to express sympathy with the victims of the Sept. 11 attacks, but then appeared to question whether al-Qaida was responsible.

"Why did this happen? What caused it? What conditions led to it?" he said. "Who truly was involved? Who was really involved and put it all together?"

Asked about executions of homosexuals in Iran, Ahmadinejad said the judiciary system executed violent criminals and high-level drug dealers, comparing them to microbes eliminated through medical treatment. Pressed specifically about punishment of homosexuals, he said: "In Iran we don't have homosexuals like in your country."

With the audience laughing derisively, he continued: "In Iran we do not have this phenomenon. I don't know who's told you that we have this."

Bollinger was strongly criticized for inviting Ahmadinejad to Columbia, and had promised tough questions in his introduction to Ahmadinejad's talk. But the strident and personal nature of his attack on the president of Iran was startling.

"You are either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated," Bollinger told Ahmadinejad about the leader's Holocaust denial.

During his prepared remarks, the Iranian president did not address Bollinger's accusations directly.

Suzanne Maloney, a foreign policy fellow at the Brookings Institution, said Ahmadinejad's softer tone on Israel in this speech may reflect backlash in his own country.

"There's been widespread commentary in Iran, even on the far-right, that Ahmadinejad's position on Israel has hurt the country's diplomatic relations," said Maloney. "The fact that he was frankly unwilling to go as far as he has in the past suggests there may have been some consequences for him at home."

President Bush said Ahmadinejad's appearance at Columbia "speaks volumes about really the greatness of America."

He told Fox News Channel that if Bollinger considers Ahmadinejad's visit an educational experience for Columbia students, "I guess it's OK with me."

Other American officials were less sympathetic.

On Capitol Hill, conservatives said Columbia should not have invited Ahmadinejad to speak. Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., said "there is a world of difference between not preventing Ahmadinejad from speaking and handing a megalomaniac a megaphone and a stage to use it."

Sen. Joseph Lieberman, I-Conn., said he thought Columbia's invitation to Ahmadinejad was a mistake "because he comes literally with blood on his hands."

Thousands of people jammed two blocks of 47th Street across from the United Nations to protest Ahmadinejad's visit to New York. Organizers claimed a turnout of tens of thousands. Police did not immediately have a crowd estimate.

The speakers, most of them politicians and officials from Jewish organizations, proclaimed their support for Israel and criticized the Iranian leader for his remarks questioning the Holocaust.

"We're here today to send a message that there is never a reason to give a hatemonger an open stage," New York City Council Speaker Christine Quinn said.

Protesters also assembled at Columbia. Dozens stood near the lecture hall where Ahmadinejad was scheduled to speak, linking arms and singing traditional Jewish folk songs about peace and brotherhood, while nearby a two-person band played "You Are My Sunshine."

Signs in the crowd displayed a range of messages, including one that read "We refuse to choose between Islamic fundamentalism and American imperialism." "

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So, what do you think about? Good thing? Will it have positive benefits?

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

The president of the university has overstepped his role as a hosting faculty and introducting presence to be a major bitchface. It was horribly insulting. Regardless without getting into whether or not he's insane which he doesnt seem so but may seem to be (or may seem not to be) this was definetly an egotistical pussy slap by a supposed respectful academic part of the top tier of american education. I think your country has to be more respectful of other cultures.

He is wrong in certain issues but it is not your business.

[Akira]

Inviting a foreign leader to speak at your school, only to verbally attack him, seems extremely rude.
I think that Ahmadinejad does horrible things that should be criticized, but if you let him speak at your school and least have the maturity to treat your guest with some level of dignity.
This Columbia mess did exactly what Ahmadinejad wanted. He knew that people would try to deny him speaking time, and he wanted people to do it so he could say we are hypocrites in regards to freedom of speech.
Iran represents such a foreign policy fiasco. As an American, I want to see my country strong and respected, and when we have a president of one of the nation's top colleges call a foreign leader "petty" and "ridiculous", it makes our country look bad, no matter how true his criticisms may be.

I have no problem with criticizing a man who has done as many bad things as Ahmadinejad, but please do it in a way that does not reflect poorly on our country.

[Ollie The Drumming Legend]

That said, his attacks, although personal, were pretty accurate. It would have been better if he had backed them up with some fact, etc, though, which do exist.

And I thoroughly the reject eh argument that he should just be kind and soft to the Iranian president just because he is a foreign head of state or a visitor. I mean, the man denies the holocaust, and the Columbia man pretty much pointed it out. It would have been more effective if done in a more intellectual manner sure, but I think it's a bit foolish to say that the University should shy away from strong opinions and tough questions. Not to mention Ahmadinejad pretty much avoided all the tough points and read from a preprepared speech - not much of a performance from him; surely we could have watched Iranian state TV to hear what he said tbh.

That said, calling him "petty" and "rediculous" somewhat misrepresents what happens with Iran. And also I think it won't do much for US-Iranian relations, which is more an important issue than wanting your country to look great to the world, Akira, so I guess I can agree with you but not your reasoning. Basically I think the Columbia guy could have handled himself a little better, but my sympathy for Ahmedinejad is somewhat limited.

[Akira]

You misunderstand me - I have no sympathy for Ahmedinejad. However, you do not introduce a speaker like the president of Columbia did. It is just bad form.
And while I want my country to look good, of course that is a nonissue when compared to actually relations. But I doubt this event had any effect on US-Iranian relations.

[Ollie The Drumming Legend]

You are right, I didn't get what you said to begin with but I've now reread it all.

I think he definitely could have at least attacked/criticised him in a more reasonably way as would befit a rational debate. It was pretty much pointless him saying it like he did. Nice guitar btw

[italic zero]

that's a bass

[Danger Bird]

"he comes literally with blood on his hands."

gg Lieberman

[italic zero]

that statement calls for his resignation

[spitfirejunky]

President Bush said Ahmadinejad's appearance at Columbia "speaks volumes about really the greatness of America."

Pressed specifically about punishment of homosexuals, he said: "In Iran we don't have homosexuals like in your country."

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Danger Bird]

that statement calls for his resignation

Dude, literally.

[Mr. Ron]

Yet again, I'm embarrassed to be an American. I apologize for my country, rest of the world.

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

Guys, what is the fuss about Iran trying to get nuclear weapons? He said everything they are doing is legal and they're trying gain nuclear electricity capabilities. It seems a lot like the American government and media is twisting words and being assholes.

[Jude]

Yet again, I'm embarrassed to be an American. I apologize for my country, rest of the world.
Seconded.

That said



"We don't have homosexuals in Iran"

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Guys, what is the fuss about Iran trying to get nuclear weapons? He said everything they are doing is legal and they're trying gain nuclear electricity capabilities. It seems a lot like the American government and media is twisting words and being assholes.Guys, what is the fuss about Iran trying to get nuclear weapons? He said everything they are doing is legal and they're trying gain nuclear electricity capabilities. It seems a lot like the American government and media is twisting words and being assholes.
Nobody's allowed to have nukes except for us

[Mr. Ron]

Guys, what is the fuss about Iran trying to get nuclear weapons? He said everything they are doing is legal and they're trying gain nuclear electricity capabilities. It seems a lot like the American government and media is twisting words and being assholes.

They think that he's lying, and he's going to use the program to develop nukes. Even if he did, does anyone really think he'd actually use them?

There's the possibility of him selling nuclear material to someone to construct a dirty bomb, but thats even stretching it.

[Akira]

They think that he's lying, and he's going to use the program to develop nukes. Even if he did, does anyone really think he'd actually use them?

There's the possibility of him selling nuclear material to someone to construct a dirty bomb, but thats even stretching it.

The problem isn't that Iran would use them, it is that if Iran gets nukes then the rest of the middle east is going to want them.

And I think Noonward was making a funny.

[Jude]

They think that he's lying, and he's going to use the program to develop nukes. Even if he did, does anyone really think he'd actually use them?

There's the possibility of him selling nuclear material to someone to construct a dirty bomb, but thats even stretching it.

I'm not paranoid about Iran developing nuclear weapons because they'd never use them and they wouldn't even sell them to terrorists or anything because they know that if terrorists ever set off a nuke in the US, the entire middle east region is going to be bombed back to the stone age.

[Mr. Ron]

yeah, that too.

[griftadan]

why are people apologizing for being american this was awesome, it showed how truly ridiculous this guy is

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

They think that he's lying, and he's going to use the program to develop nukes. Even if he did, does anyone really think he'd actually use them?

There's the possibility of him selling nuclear material to someone to construct a dirty bomb, but thats even stretching it.
I think this disconnect is a problem of humanity not particularly, him. The power of weapons is extremely potent now we have to negotiate and evolve past this bs of not trusting another person because he's from way over there.

[Mr. Ron]

why are people apologizing for being american this was awesome, it showed how truly ridiculous this guy is

I think he is ridiculous, but its pretty unprofessional and childish for a president of a university that let him come to his school, just bash him.

[lfantwister]

Ahmadinejad should have anticipated that though and (and maybe he did--just look at how much anti-american sentiment this issue has created)

[Akira]

Of course he anticipated it. I'm sure that this was his goal in the first place. He doesn't want to convert people, he just wants to embarrass the US.
I wish people would stop letting him get away with things like this. Just ignore him.

[lfantwister]

Ignoring the problem definitely makes it go away

[griftadan]

I think he is ridiculous, but its pretty unprofessional and childish for a president of a university that let him come to his school, just bash him.

technically he let him speak first and he said some pretty stupid things to warrant that

[Akira]

Ignoring the problem definitely makes it go away

Him saying obnoxious things isn't a problem. I'm not saying we need to ignore Iran, because we most definitely need to work with them, specifically on nuclear non-proliferation.
But him saying stupid things about the Holocaust not being real and all that is hot air. It poses no threat to us. Getting all worked up over it is just giving him what he wants.

[Akira]

technically he let him speak first and he said some pretty stupid things to warrant that

What happened to being the bigger man?

[Yield]

Nobody's allowed to have nukes except for us

And Russia, Pakistan, Israel, India, China, Russia, France, and the U.K.

[Independent_CA]

HAHAHAHAHA!!!! Maybe I actually would have wanted to go to this. Sounds like it would have been entertaining.

I don't see why everyones so upset about a hardline thug like this being insulted at an academic institution. He said he wanted to come here to expose us to new views and all he gave was the same crap hes been saying from his own country.

[Reaganista]

Yet again, I'm embarrassed to be an American. I apologize for my country, rest of the world.
why
I think he is ridiculous, but its pretty unprofessional and childish for a president of a university that let him come to his school, just bash him.
he executes gays

[Independent_CA]

Yet again, I'm embarrassed to be an American. I apologize for my country, rest of the world.

Why, because he called someone out for what he is?

[griftadan]

What happened to being the bigger man?

being the bigger man is letting people say stupid **** uncontested?

[Akira]

No, being the bigger man is acting like an adult and not inviting someone to your school just to bash him.
Contest his stupid ****, but not while introducing him. The whole thing just felt childish.

[Ollie The Drumming Legend]

Tbh Iran has expressed an interest in using weapons against Israel. Although something needs to be done about Israel, this is definitely not it. It would just be terrible. Iran supports terrorists, literally. Them having more/better weapons cannot be a good thing at all. Having a nuke is pretty pointless tbh anyway in the case of Iran; it will only make even more middle eastern countries want the bomb. What ever happened to nuclear non-proliferation?

[Smokey D]

The bomb is a deterrent to attack.

And it has a whole lotta non-military yet associated benefits.

[Danish]

Considering that he was invited to speak at the University, I thought that was particularly tactless on the part of the president of the school.

[Ollie The Drumming Legend]

The bomb is a deterrent to attack.

And it has a whole lotta non-military yet associated benefits.

That assumes that a nuclear power will use the nuclear weapon when attacked, or when attacking, other nations, which in the majority of countries is not true IMO. America did not use the nuke in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan.... but it did not stop other nations fighting back.

If Iran had a bomb then nobody would want to attack it, and would feel they had to also have the bomb to be safe. If Iran did not have the bomb then the situation would essentially be the same, as nobody will every use nuclear weapons against another nation which has similar capabilities in war, so I really don't see how it helps. I doubt a Middle Eastern arms race would be productive in any way.

[ringworm]

i have to say i absolutely hate this guy, interview after interview, he dances around questions and boasts how he goes above and beyond reporters inquries, but never giving an answer. and his underlying threats about sanctions and the effects of the countries that impose sanctions on iran. almost every answer i've seen this guy give has a very faint hostile tone but hidden behind so many sentences, you cant make anything out of it

that being said

Of course he anticipated it. I'm sure that this was his goal in the first place. He doesn't want to convert people, he just wants to embarrass the US.
I wish people would stop letting him get away with things like this. Just ignore him.
yup, of course our leaders let him play his cards exactly how he wanted, we just gave him and supporters more fuel to play with by treating him like they did


this was a creepy interview
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3591410916525953765&q=interview+with+Ahmadinejad&total=133&start=20&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3591410916525953765&q=interview+with+Ahmadinejad&total=133&start=20&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3

[Mr. Ron]

Why, because he called someone out for what he is?

Everyone knew what he is.

To invite someone to a formal debate just to childishly bash them only lends to what we look like to the rest of the world.

[Reaganista]

That assumes that a nuclear power will use the nuclear weapon when attacked, or when attacking, other nations, which in the majority of countries is not true IMO. America did not use the nuke in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan.... but it did not stop other nations fighting back.
wat

If Iran had a bomb then nobody would want to attack it
that's the whole point
as nobody will every use nuclear weapons against another nation which has similar capabilities
you seriously dont see how that helps
seriously
or is that a joke

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

i have to say i absolutely hate this guy, interview after interview, he dances around questions and boasts how he goes above and beyond reporters inquries, but never giving an answer.He answers the questions reasonably. As he said it's not a CIA criminal investigation lol it's an interview, a conversation, he can expound on his motives and the way he sees things all he wants and needs to. He doesn't need to be your little hitler if he doesn't feel like it. and his underlying threats about sanctions and the effects of the countries that impose sanctions on iran. almost every answer i've seen this guy give has a very faint hostile tone but hidden behind so many sentences, you cant make anything out of
This apriorism is your own fault for not realizing that he's saying what he has to and not what you wish he was, He doesn't say he's gonna nuke us but I think I can almost pretend that he is haha.

[griftadan]

No, being the bigger man is acting like an adult and not inviting someone to your school just to bash him.
Contest his stupid ****, but not while introducing him. The whole thing just felt childish.

maybe he was going for publicity, a lot of people call out ahmadinejad but don't get noticed

[Akira]

Don't give me that. Everyone in America knows that Ahmadinejad is a liar with blood on his hands.

[Smokey D]

That assumes that a nuclear power will use the nuclear weapon when attacked, or when attacking, other nations, which in the majority of countries is not true IMO. America did not use the nuke in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan.... but it did not stop other nations fighting back.

Even if they don't use it, the risk that they could is a deterrent.

But a nuke doesn't really have any offensive uses in a world with more than one nuclear power.

If Iran had a bomb then nobody would want to attack it, and would feel they had to also have the bomb to be safe. If Iran did not have the bomb then the situation would essentially be the same, as nobody will every use nuclear weapons against another nation which has similar capabilities in war, so I really don't see how it helps. I doubt a Middle Eastern arms race would be productive in any way.

Iran's not scared of other Middle Eastern countries. It's scared of Israel and the US. The threat of a nuke in Tel Aviv is deterrent enough to dissuade the US from attacking, or so it is hoped.

[ringworm]

he can expound on his motives and the way he sees things all he wants and needs to. He doesn't need to be your little hitler if he doesn't feel like it.
yes he can, but should the majority of the US be left to expound what they think he means and his motives are? :p

not that i think our administration is doing any better

This apriorism is your own fault for not realizing that he's saying what he has to and not what you wish he was
i've heard from several soldiers that i am friends with that this is a common arab/middle eastern trait towards westerners (sorry for gerneralizing) intentional misleading, hard to fully comprehend statements yadda yadda yadda

it was even on TV how much it happens and how frustrating it is for troops

[griftadan]

Don't give me that. Everyone in America knows that Ahmadinejad is a liar with blood on his hands.

no i meant that he wanted people to specifically know it was him calling him out

[Akira]

Which yes, I think that is pretty much a given. It doesn't make it any less childish.

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

i've heard from several soldiers that i am friends with that this is a common arab/middle eastern trait towards westerners (sorry for gerneralizing) intentional misleading, hard to fully comprehend statements yadda yadda yaddathis is because americans are stupid and dont understand anything more complex than yes or no. for some reason you guys are hardwired to some rigid bifurcation laden flowchart too much childrens television and school i think
it was even on TV how much it happens and how frustrating it is for troopsoh my, ON TV?!

[Yield]

Iran having the bomb, as it has been stated, would keep us from attacking them. That is the exact reason why I don't care if they get it.

[Akira]

That's a very narrow way to look at it. There are more countries than just America and Iran.

[Akira]

...was that supposed to actually say anything?

[recklessrick]

The world is in the hands of fools.

[ringworm]

this is because americans are stupid and dont understand anything more complex than yes or no.
lol, maybe so, i cant argue with that, but some of his simple questions only needed simple answers

oh my, ON TV?!
another lol, yep, it had a military commander getting new troops familiarized with common activities in Iraq, one of the points he stressed was not to get discouraged with responses like Ahmadinejad's wayward answers when talking to locals

I wish I could take Ahmadinejad for what he says, he sounds like he wants what many of us want, but the question dodging, the political games he's playing w/current American attitude vs the Bush Admin. and the underlying threats to nations that dont exactly trust him are semi worrysome.

But I think in the end, most of the countries Fox News portrays as demons are simply flexing muscles & doing some politcial posturing and playing off of the current attitude of most Americans that are obviously tired of the war machine and the current administration

[Independent_CA]

this is because americans are stupid and dont understand anything more complex than yes or no. for some reason you guys are hardwired to some rigid bifurcation laden flowchart too much childrens television and school i think

*Is American.
*Is Not Stupid.
...pwned :smash:


another lol, yep, it had a military commander getting new troops familiarized with common activities in Iraq, one of the points he stressed was not to get discouraged with responses like Ahmadinejad's wayward answers when talking to locals

I wish I could take Ahmadinejad for what he says, he sounds like he wants what many of us want, but the question dodging, the political games he's playing w/current American attitude vs the Bush Admin. and the underlying threats to nations that dont exactly trust him are semi worrysome.

But I think in the end, most of the countries Fox News portrays as demons are simply flexing muscles & doing some politcial posturing and playing off of the current attitude of most Americans that are obviously tired of the war machine and the current administration
Ahmadinejad and the other hardliners in the theocracy he is a part of do not want anything like the rest of us want. They have been about "exporting the revolution" in one way or another since 1979.

[Danish]

This guy is no worse than any US President.

[Reaganista]

and...

[WhoDidTheElf]

This guy is no worse than any US President.

tr00f rite here yo.

[Hababi]

This guy is no worse than any US President.

Explain.

[Reaganista]

no dont it doesn't have any relevance

[Danish]

Sure it does. The seething hatred directed toward Ahmadinejad here isn't really different from the seething hatred we see from Western Asia in the media directed toward Bush.

I'm trying to encourage everyone to be a little bit less reactionary about this and a little more thoughtful.

[WhoDidTheElf]

That's not exactly what it sounded like you said, it sounded more like "Bush hates women and wants to nuke Israel". And from what I know, most Americans don't have this "seething hatred" towards Ahmadinejad.

[ringworm]

the only thing that most americans are seething with hatred about are both parties reluctance to ****ing do something besides throw around mindless rhetoric :p

[Reaganista]

i dont see what's at all reactionary about opposing ahmadinejad
The seething hatred directed toward Ahmadinejad here isn't really different from the seething hatred we see from Western Asia in the media directed toward Bush.
this is irrelevant

[MattyBlade]

The president of the university has overstepped his role as a hosting faculty and introducting presence to be a major bitchface. It was horribly insulting. Regardless without getting into whether or not he's insane which he doesnt seem so but may seem to be (or may seem not to be) this was definetly an egotistical pussy slap by a supposed respectful academic part of the top tier of american education. I think your country has to be more respectful of other cultures.

He is wrong in certain issues but it is not your business.

He seem's like iran's version of bush(although alot smarter) he is just CRAZY naive. Either that or he does have alterior motives and just comes off as being really naive when speaking....although, I like to think he's just super naive.

[Independent_CA]

He seem's like iran's version of bush(although alot smarter) he is just CRAZY naive. Either that or he does have alterior motives and just comes off as being really naive when speaking....although, I like to think he's just super naive.
I think hes super naive and the people who back him are the ones with ulterior motives.

[Akira]

I don't think he is naive. It seems to me like his actions are too calculated for that.

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

I think the problem is probably that he speaks with a translator and it's harder to articulate himself and keep he's communication consistent and stuff

[Akira]

I don't think it matters, because what he says is ranges from controversial to asinine anyways and he knows it.

[recklessrick]

I would rather talk than have to fight.Iranian chicks are hot.Once you get them out of their clownsuits they are not bad.

[Independent_CA]

I would rather talk than have to fight.Iranian chicks are hot.Once you get them out of their clownsuits they are not bad.

Unfortunately we're dealing with a bunch of old, cranky Iranian men.

[recklessrick]

Unfortunately we're dealing with a bunch of old, cranky Iranian men.

They have daughters right. I'm thinking about that screw the old men they come and they go but good TANG is hard to come by.In the states you got that cranky old Chaney dude shootin' his friends.A bunch of wacked out Persians are nothing.Dinnerjacket or whatever his name is has a cute daughter.