Belgium Breaking Up?

[VomitStainedCretin]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,2170606,00.html

Any thoughts on the chances of this happening? I'd be interested to hear the opinions of any natives of Belgium.

[superpeer]

It is possible, I guess and there are many people who want to see it that way, mostly in Flanders. But those people are jerks.

I think that things are already so divided that it's not worth the hassle to break up the last ties. But then, I don't really follow politics, so what do I know. I know there have been problems in Belgium since the dark ages, however.

Personally, I don't want to see it happening, because I don't want to refer to myself as Flemish. =)

[Hababi]

It is possible, I guess and there are many people who want to see it that way, mostly in Flanders. But those people are jerks.

I think that things are already so divided that it's not worth the hassle to break up the last ties. But then, I don't really follow politics, so what do I know. I know there have been problems in Belgium since the dark ages, however.

Personally, I don't want to see it happening, because I don't want to refer to myself as Flemish. =)

Yeah too much like phlegm-ish

I wonder how each side would fare, economically, if they would divide. Usually one side succeeds much more than the other (eg Czech Republic and Slovakia).

PS Jelle check rep.

[VomitStainedCretin]

I wonder how each side would fare, economically, if they would divide. Usually one side succeeds much more than the other (eg Czech Republic and Slovakia).Flanders is more populous, industrialised and wealthy, so Wallonia is the partner most interested in continued unification. The main issue is Brussels as it is a French speaking capital city of great importance to the EU surrounded by Flemish-speaking territory. If you read the article, one of the Flemish politicians refers to it as the last obstacle for seperatists.

Feel free to discuss other European secession issues, e.g. Catalonia/Basque Country, Scotland/Wales.

[Give me Beer]

Brussels is the only reason it hasn't been tried if you ask me. I am against it though, since an independent Flanders would be a horrible CD&V country with all the politicians having multiple fingers up their rectum. Either way, it's not going to happen in the near future, it would just be too difficult to sort out. There isn't that much support for seperatism as you would think.

Brussels is part of Flanders BTW & the Flemish regional government is based there, it also has like 250 000 Flemish people working there every day ... If you want to know something funny, technically the last elections aren't legal 'cause they didn't split the voting district B-H-V, so that the people there could still vote for political parties based in Brussels...

Wallonia right now, is one of the poorest areas of the EU, while Flanders is one of the richest. Flanders would fare better, economically, but you know, that could change, who knows.

Either way, f'ck an independent Flanders & Dewinter can suck it. La Jeunesse Emmerde Le Vlaams Belang. ;)

Oh yea, and we should re-institute the right to vote for every party, instead of only those based in your region.

* It's not so much that I am for Belgium, than that I am against and independent Flanders, and if we're going to go there, I want an independent Brabant. F'ck West-Vloanderen ;).

[VomitStainedCretin]

Could a Wallonia forced into independence seek union with France? I suppose an example of a similar situation is Moldova and Romania(who were possibly going to unify in the mid '90s but did not due to the protests of Russian/Turkish minorities in Moldova).

The German speaking areas are basically the Eupen-Malmedy concession granted to Belgium after WWI, amiright, so the German minority could possibly seek to be reintegrated.

[Give me Beer]

Yeah, an independent Wallonia might join with France. There have always been calls for it to do so, from within as well as from Paris. There are even a couple of integrationist political parties (that don't get too many votes, as most people are not seperatist in Wallonia, but should they be forced into independence that might well change ... )

I would think it a more likely concept.

Eupen-Malmedy might stick with Wallonia if it went to France, or split off and join Germany, who knows.

[Hababi]

If Belgium breaks up then they should chop the head off all of King Leopold's statues. Seriously, that guy was the biggest schmuck imaginable.

[Independent_CA]

Interesting proposition...didn't even know there was this kind of strife in Belgium. I don't really see how it would be much of a problem internationally. Then again, I'm not sure how much of a purpose it would really serve.

[Give me Beer]

A couple months back the RTBF did a mock-break news special, in which they claimed that Flanders had unilaterally declared independence. Quite a few countries had their embassies call in panic about it. :lol:

King Leopold was a total ***, true, what do you expect. His dad (Leopold I) hated being King of the Belgians. We wouldn't have had a King if it weren't for Russia, Austria & Prussia being such asses on the subject.

I'm just sayin' that an independent Flanders would be a **** state, and force me to emigrate. Oh yea, the guys you see on the picture in the article. They're NSV, think extreme-right fascist Hitler-jugend type guys. You don't want to know what they write about North-Africans & Blacks in their little "magazines". Last year they even beat up some people from the Trotskist Student Association because they couldn't stomac what they had written about the history of the NSV.

Some views by Belgians on the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6995511.stm

[Futue te Ipsum]

Who would get brussels?

[The Stig]

It appears it would be the Flemish, right?

[superpeer]

Brussels is part of Flanders

It is? Since when? <-< I thought it was separate.

[The Stig]

On the maps, it looks like it's surrounded by Flanders...I would assume if the split happens, Brussels would go with Flanders. Or else it would be like Lesotho in South Africa.

[big80smullet]

I think it would be a pretty strange move. Belgium is already small and making it into two smaller states will cause problems

[Give me Beer]

It is? Since when? <-< I thought it was separate.

Dude, pay attention in class, Brussel is part of the "Vlaamse Gemeenschap" (Flemish Community).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flemish_Community

This got merged with the Flemish region:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flemish_Region

So that's where your confusion comes from, while the Walloon Region & the French Community of Belgium have not merged.

Also the reason why the Flemish parliament is situated in Brussels & why half the time they are making decisions about things while being outside of the actual territory they rule.

So Brussels is both situated in Flanders & it's own region. Belgian politics resemble Margritte paintings, remember that.

Flanders without Brussels would be ****, since it's the only city in the territory that can play an international role, one that Antwerp could never hope to fill. Then again, convincing Brussels to go along with Flemish independence is never going to work.

*The original dialect from Brussels is a Flemish dialect.

[Dave de Sylvia]

No, nobody ever wants to go to a country called Wallonia. Also it doesn't seem like any real life Belgian people are interested in splitting.

[Give me Beer]

The Walloons don't want to split though, it's more Flemish parties that are seperatist (Vlaams Blok, Vlott, N-VA, LDD).

Oh yeah, something I've never known happening outside a Worldcup & the 21st is happening ...

People are putting the Belgian flag up outside their houses. A show against seperatism, so it would seem.

[Apocalyptic Raids]

The Walloons
hehehehehe

[VomitStainedCretin]

The last word belongs not to myself but to Rik Torfs, a prominent Fleming: "Don't dig your own graves, you the victors of the elections... Just stop and think what would happen if Flanders at last gained independence.

"If we Flemish were in effect to shoot our Walloon scapegoat, we and we alone would then become responsible for all our failures."A good reason why Flanders shouldn't break away(thanks Give me beer). Also, a split would be economically disastrous and Belgium as the world's 12th/13th largest economy has a lot to lose therefore.

[Smokey D]

If both parts stayed members of the EU (ie, have free trade), I don't know if it would damage the economy.

[johnnyolai]

If both parts stayed members of the EU (ie, have free trade), I don't know if it would damage the economy.

This is a general point in the EU. Why should you have nation states, when small regions could work just as nice? There are lots of minority groups all over the place, some with incredibly long history, their own language, culture, traditions, etc. With the EU taking care of more and more, it could be argued that moving the power downwards, closer to the people, would be the most democratic thing to do.

Or the most economic, at least when it comes to regions such as Catalonia, the Basque, northern Italy, etc. These rich regions are often tired of paying for the rest of their respective countries, and hence you have separatist tendencies in these regions...

[lunchforthesky]

The Basque's should definately have their own country.

[johnnyolai]

But if your location tag is correct, can I ask how you feel about Wales, Scotland or for that matter Cornwall getting independence?

[lunchforthesky]

If they want it they can have it.

There is also a small yorkshire seperatist movement populated by idiots which I do not support at all.

[Smokey D]

The Basque's should definately have their own country.

Basque separatism isn't a majority view among Basques, though.

[johnnyolai]

Separatists in Yorkshire? I can understand Scotland and Wales, and to some extent Cornwall (being 300 people speaking Cornish there), but Yorkshire? What is their claim to fame?

[Smokey D]

Also, I should point out that nation-states will continue to exist because free trade economics don't account for everything. Many countries want to retain separate policies within the EU and with respect to the rest of the world, which is perhaps best achieved as a nation-state.

And also, various EU members want to limit the power of Brussels.

[lunchforthesky]

Basque separatism isn't a majority view among Basques, though.

Oh my mistake. In that case they shouldn't.

[VomitStainedCretin]

But if your location tag is correct, can I ask how you feel about Wales, Scotland or for that matter Cornwall getting independence?Scotland could very well become independent within the next decade or two if the SNP get their way(which is not probable but still possible). In which case I'm ure Wales would follow suite. Only problem for the English is that would basically leave us a one party Tory state(as a lot of Labour's support is in Wales and Scotland).

[Smokey D]

Um, Wales is so integrated into England that you don't ever need to worry about it separating.

As for the Scots, I'm not sure. Absolute authority still resides in the Westminster Parliament, and for dissolution to occur it would have to gain support there. Scottish Nationalists in the Scottish Parliament is not really enough to end the United Kingdom.

[dei]

Wouldn't Scotland's economy go down the shiter if they become independent?

[Smokey D]

Not really, if the common market continued to exist.

But there is a convincing argument that Scotland, with only 5 million people, would actually have much reduced influence as a sovereign state than it does now as part of the United Kingdom (ie, it would lose its position in influencing the Security Council, the EU etc). Other arguments include Scotland needing protection from an economically powerful state (economies of scale) and it being unable to maintain public spending without tax revenues from Westminster.

[VomitStainedCretin]

Not really, if the common market continued to exist.

But there is a convincing argument that Scotland, with only 5 million people, would actually have much reduced influence as a sovereign state than it does now as part of the United Kingdom (ie, it would lose its position in influencing the Security Council, the EU etc). Other arguments include Scotland needing protection from an economically powerful state (economies of scale) and it being unable to maintain public spending without tax revenues from Westminster.There are a number of minor nations, e.g. Luxembourg, the Baltic states, Cyprus, Malta, within the EU that are doing fairly well and Scotland would arguably be able to voice its concerns better as an independent state than as part of the UK. However, it is true that many privelages the Scottish government gives to its citizens, e.g. no tuition fees, better pensions, are mostly being supported by the English taxpayer.

Welsh nationalism has definitely been on the increase in the past 50 years, particularly due to the revival of the native language, though the south and west, in particular the capital Cardiff, are still highly anglecised.

[superpeer]

Dude, pay attention in class, Brussel is part of the "Vlaamse Gemeenschap" (Flemish Community).

Oh, I thought that only the flemish speaking people of Brussels were part of the community. Whatever, I don't really care for politics and I sure as hell don't care for paying attention in class.

one that Antwerp could never hope to fill.

pfff, Antwerp > Brussels

you just jealous

[Smokey D]

There are a number of minor nations, e.g. Luxembourg, the Baltic states, Cyprus, Malta, within the EU that are doing fairly well and Scotland would arguably be able to voice its concerns better as an independent state than as part of the UK.

I dunno. It is true that Scotland has a major role in the UK at the moment (Scots have essentially run the government for the past 10 years), and that Scotland would lose its privileges if it split. It would cease to be a military power, lose its place (and seat) on the Security Council and would stop being one of the Big Three in the EU.

Welsh nationalism has definitely been on the increase in the past 50 years, particularly due to the revival of the native language, though the south and west, in particular the capital Cardiff, are still highly anglecised.

The whole Welsh nation was incorporated into the English state by Henry Tudor. I don't think it has enough separate laws etc to truly start thinking of separatism.

[Permanent Solution]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070918/ap_on_fe_st/belgium_for_sale_5

[Give me Beer]

pfff, Antwerp > Brussels

you just jealous

:0 Dude, objectively it's true, and from a personal point of view:

Antwerp sucks balls.

:P

I don't like being in that city at all, Brussels on the other hand, rules.

[RIP Ian Curtis]

Be interesting if Europe suddenly de-stabilised. Gotta remember that a stable Europe (i.e. everyone getting along to a greater or lesser extent, not invading one another every week etc) is only half a century old. Get all these tiny little mini-states popping up and all it would take would be one of the larger states (France or Germany for example) to just invade all of them.

[VomitStainedCretin]

The whole Welsh nation was incorporated into the English state by Henry Tudor. I don't think it has enough separate laws etc to truly start thinking of separatism.If a native majority supported it, Wales could push for independence and has become increasingly autonomous as a result of devolution. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_devolution_referendum%2C_1997

[Smokey D]

What I mean is that its legal and political structure is so tightly bound to Westminster disolution is over a generation away even if the political will was there.

[Give me Beer]

Be interesting if Europe suddenly de-stabilised. Gotta remember that a stable Europe (i.e. everyone getting along to a greater or lesser extent, not invading one another every week etc) is only half a century old. Get all these tiny little mini-states popping up and all it would take would be one of the larger states (France or Germany for example) to just invade all of them.

Uhm, comparing Europe now to 50 years ago is not very accurate. Nor Germany nor France could ever get away with invading any of the other countries, nor would they wish to.

[VomitStainedCretin]

Uhm, comparing Europe now to 50 years ago is not very accurate. Nor Germany nor France could ever get away with invading any of the other countries, nor would they wish to.Peace is greatly in France and Germany's interests as they are the heart of the EU.

[RIP Ian Curtis]

All this is true right now. I'm just musing over hypotheticals. Just because Western Eurpoe is safe and stable now doesn't mean it always will.

[Smokey D]

Stop invoking hypotheticals like they're even remotely possible, dammit!

[superpeer]

:0 Dude, objectively it's true, and from a personal point of view:

Antwerp sucks balls.

:P

I don't like being in that city at all, Brussels on the other hand, rules.

I think you realise that all people from Antwerp believe Antwerp is the best city in the world, we are, after all, arrogant bastards with a great dialect.

[Give me Beer]

I think you realise that all people from Antwerp believe Antwerp is the best city in the world, we are, after all, arrogant bastards with an ugly* dialect.

*fix'd.

Anyway, Antwerp sucks. :D Everybody is way too hostile.

[superpeer]

WTF NO WE ARE ****ING NOT, **** OFF ***HOLE

Anyway, Brabant dialects like the ones in Brussels and Antwerp are always good. Sure beats the hell out the Flemish and Limburgish dialects. *puke*

[johnnyolai]

From the sound some participants in this thread, it doesn't really look as if Belgium will stay united for much longer :p

[RIP Ian Curtis]

Who gets the kids?

[superpeer]

I dibs teen girls.

[Dave de Sylvia]

:o!

[Give me Beer]

From the sound some participants in this thread, it doesn't really look as if Belgium will stay united for much longer :p

We're both from the seperatist part of Belgium, so that's not really an issue. :P Although, if it were up to me, Brabant independent! We'll take Vlaams/Waals Brabant, Limburg & Dutch Brabant... The other guys can have Antwerp ;).

Oh yeah, and I fully agree, Brabant dialects rule, just not Antwerpish ;).

EDIT: Oh yeah, another reason to keep Brussels, it's full of hot girls. :0 I was standing 'round in the metro last week, and Goddam!

[johnnyolai]

Sounds like a good reason to keep Brussels ;)

[superpeer]

We're both from the seperatist part of Belgium, so that's not really an issue. :P Although, if it were up to me, Brabant independent! We'll take Vlaams/Waals Brabant, Limburg & Dutch Brabant... The other guys can have Antwerp ;).

Oh yeah, and I fully agree, Brabant dialects rule, just not Antwerpish ;).

EDIT: Oh yeah, another reason to keep Brussels, it's full of hot girls. :0 I was standing 'round in the metro last week, and Goddam!

If you want Brabant independent, you'll have to go back to the Duchy of Brabant, which includes Antwerp, SO SORRY.

[johnnyolai]

Apparently, someone is really tired of this debate in Belgium, opting to sell the whole country to someone, hoping that it would be managed better...

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/20070918-0853-odd-belgiumforsale.html

[Riziger]

wow... i din know belgium was that f'd up.

prolly sensationalised tbh but they got some serious problems there.

[Give me Beer]

wow... i din know belgium was that f'd up.

prolly sensationalised tbh but they got some serious problems there.

I don't know, I prefer this mess to Gordon Brown or George Bush.

:P