music theory

[retard_robbie]

i am just interested to know why a major seventh Ima7 chord isnt dissonant when there is a leading tone in it... i keep reading that the leading tone in a dominant V chord has a strong pull towards the root note of the scale, but why doesnt this happen between 7 and 8 of the I chord? i know there is no tritone and all that stuff, but what i read doesnt say it is the tritone in the V7 chord that causes the leading tone to resolve, its just the nature of the leading tone... also a V chord without a tritone still pulls towards the root note (3 of V --> 1 of I)... so why does the Ima7 sound so damn relaxed and sleepy? why doesnt the 7 of the chord pull as much as in the V chord?

thanks... i know this isnt that important cos its not gonna change how the thing sounds, but im just interested...

[Ando!]

idk much theory but I is a resovlement tone pretty much anyway I use it, I mean it's the I, ya know?

[TheClap]

Well first off if you are using roman numerals, please use only roman numerals, actually just use the number system its much easier to understand. I read your question as,

"why doesn't the major seven pull as much as the dominant 7th chord."

Because the major seven contains major 3 and major 7, which is a perfect interval, and the root just copliments that. Whereas the V chord (dominant 7th) contains a minor 7 while maintaing the major third. Which is a 5b to the 3rd and thats rather crunchy, so I don't know if that was your question, Im a bass player, try to speak in general terms.

[myron]

Its due to acoustical overtones. The 7th by itself is 'dissonant' (subjective!) but by adding the 3rd in there it evens out the acoustics and makes it less 'dissonant'. additional tones makes it more and more 'consonant'. I used to know a lot more about the subject, but now i've forgotten.

Its quite an interesting subject, overtones. Ive always found it strange that the 4th in a major 7th is the most disgusting sounding note ever. But then the b9 and #9 over a dominant chord sounds fine.

[Pete Down I Go]

Its due to acoustical overtones. The 7th by itself is 'dissonant' (subjective!) but by adding the 3rd in there it evens out the acoustics and makes it less 'dissonant'. additional tones makes it more and more 'consonant'. I used to know a lot more about the subject, but now i've forgotten.

Its quite an interesting subject, overtones. Ive always found it strange that the 4th in a major 7th is the most disgusting sounding note ever. But then the b9 and #9 over a dominant chord sounds fine.
Isn't that to do with the 4th actually sounding as a #4th in the natural harmonic series or something (ie F# with a C fundemental)?

In any case, the ear is the best guide for me once again...

[misterfitch]

it is dissonant, but there is nothing else it would lead to since every note is based diatonically off of the root, so the ear doesn't expect anything else.

a lot of musicians advise against playing a major 7th with the 7 on top, because of the dissonance (or maybe a major 7th with the 8th on top, i don't remember. one of them supposedly makes an uglier sound.)

edit: it's with the 8th on top. sharp 8th is a very ugly sound.

[myron]

ive heard the minor 9th (or #8) be called the 'last dissonance' in jazz music, its supposedly the only interval that is too dissonant to play without other tones to make it more consonant.

Isn't that to do with the 4th actually sounding as a #4th in the natural harmonic series or something (ie F# with a C fundemental)?

In any case, the ear is the best guide for me once again...

it might do. I just find it interesting that the tritone is dissonant by itself, and the perfect 4th is the strongest interval apart from the octave, but put a 3rd and 7th in there, and suddenly the tritone sounds fine and the 4th is dissonant.

Ive tried to stop relying on my ear when im playing, i find i hit too many wrong notes. All the guys with perfect pitch do it at uni, and sometimes their note choices are strange, to say the least.

[retard_robbie]

it is dissonant, but there is nothing else it would lead to since every note is based diatonically off of the root, so the ear doesn't expect anything else.

a lot of musicians advise against playing a major 7th with the 7 on top, because of the dissonance (or maybe a major 7th with the 8th on top, i don't remember. one of them supposedly makes an uglier sound.)

edit: it's with the 8th on top. sharp 8th is a very ugly sound.

i think this is right because i play the Ima7 (1-3-5-7) chord with 7 on top and then Ima triad with 1 on top (1-3-5-8) and i can hear the resolving of the notes. but i am still confused.

and the overtones... is this worth knowing for a musician, or just an interesting science bit? so far i know the first overtones make a power chord followed by a major chord of the fundamental.now when i think of 2 notes interacting, i have to imagine the overtone chords reacting... and when i think of chords interacting, i have to think of millions of notes... (if anyone knows something free on the internet to teach how to hear overtones i would like to know because i cant do it)

and when you sy the fourth is the strongest interval and putting tritones in and stuff, whereabouts are then fourths are they built on the root?

ps. someone says about using roman numerals - i use roman numerals to mean chords and numbers for notes of a scale. does anyone know of some kind of convention for telling the difference between chord tones and scale tones? (eg 5th of IImi is 6th of scale etc.)

also thanks for the replies! damn there is so musch theory to learn i keep searching on the internet and learning something completely new every time...

[misterfitch]

the fifth is the strongest interval after the octave, not the fourth.

[RyMac59]

The major seventh chord is actually dissonant, which is why you usually don't want to end a song on it. A lot of times a major 6/9 chord will be played as the last chord in a song because it doesn't have the very dissonant major seventh interval.

The Dominant seventh chord has a strong pull because the third and seventh in the chord form a tri-tone.