Birth Rates, Population Growth, and the Future of Europe

[Hababi]

Wow with a thread title like that you'd think this is a tl;dr essay by Cain :D

But anyway, just as the thread title suggests, this is about Europe, and the low birth rates and accompanying low to even negative population growth rates.

What will the consequences of this be? How will this affect demographics, social programs, etc.? And should the governments of those countries be working to combat this, and if so, how?

Putin, btw, gave people a day off work recently to procreate.

Oh, and why this is happening, in large part:
1) Less religious populations, less church attendance, less emphasis on procreation
2) Less marriage, more divorce, again less emphasis on procreation.

So, this is another one of my "Christianity can save the day" threads ;)

[dei]

I know this isn't really related to the topic, but when I read the thread title I thought about all those neo-Nazis who talk about how the white race is in decline and put the blame on other races.

[Hababi]

I know this isn't really related to the topic, but when I read the thread title I thought about all those neo-Nazis who talk about how the white race is in decline and put the blame on other races.

:lol:

RACIAL PURITY! (ugh what a silly and ill founded concept).

[Akira]

For shame Steve. You know that is thread is far too intelligent for MX.

[Futue te Ipsum]

If religion was really the key then the last thing you'd expect is the god fearing Italy and spain to do so poorly in comparison to the more godless North.

It's a serious issue and I'm not saying the decline of religion isn't a factor, but much more important factors appear to be involved.

[Hababi]

If religion was really the key then the last thing you'd expect is the god fearing Italy and spain to do so poorly in comparison to the more godless North.

It's a serious issue and I'm not saying the decline of religion isn't a factor, but much more important factors appear to be involved.

So what are they?

[lunchforthesky]

Wow with a thread title like that you'd think this is a tl;dr essay by Cain :D

But anyway, just as the thread title suggests, this is about Europe, and the low birth rates and accompanying low to even negative population growth rates.

What will the consequences of this be? How will this affect demographics, social programs, etc.? And should the governments of those countries be working to combat this, and if so, how?

Immigration. Britain has been using it for the best part of 60 years and it's gone great. If anything it's a good thing as humanity is reaching towards its capacity right now. Declining population growth isn't so bad.


Putin, btw, gave people a day off work recently to procreate.

Oh, and why this is happening, in large part:
1) Less religious populations, less church attendance, less emphasis on procreation
2) Less marriage, more divorce, again less emphasis on procreation.

So, this is another one of my "Christianity can save the day" threads ;)

Just when I thought you weren't being an *** for a change.

[lunchforthesky]

So what are they?

Religion has little to nothing to do with it. Declining religion is a product of better education and higher living standards. Ignorance breeds idiocy if you like.

The higher living standards is the cause of lower birth rates.

We have other things to do besides ****, plus when we do have sex it's done with a condom. Another product of a developed society.

[Futue te Ipsum]

So what are they?Oh, I didn't say I knew the answer :p

I'd personally suspect social security removing the need to produce children to fund your own retirement being a factor in addition to the high cost of living and mandatory education.

There are of course issues with all of the above, and you'd be quite right to point them out ;)

[Der Übermensch]

Isn't Italy the worst offender though? And I would say they are the least irreligious of the Western European nations...

[VomitStainedCretin]

So Zero, do you believe low European birth rates will lead to Muslims becomng the majority in Europe and turning the EU into the Super Fundamentalist Anti American Suicide Bombers' League of Nutcases?

The problem in Western Europe is that living costs are high and both partners need to work. Children are a burden and women would rather concentrate on their careers. Though I suppose they should stay at home and clean the house rather than working their way up in society IYO.

The reason Russia has a low birth rate is because half the population's too interested in getting hold of their next bottle of vodka.

[siva_chair]

To be honest, I don't see a decline in birth rates as neccessarily a bad thing.

Helps prevent overpopulation and has less strain on the world's resources.

[Futue te Ipsum]

Higher proportion of old people in the country is one of the problems.

[siva_chair]

Thank you modern medicine!

[Futue te Ipsum]

If I'm right on the point that social security has reduced the need to procreate yet a major issue of the decline in births is a lack of young people to look after the old then this really does say a lot about the short sightedness of humanity.

[spitfirejunky]

Ummm, post hoc fallacy?

[Against Miik!]

It would be super cool if every continent on Earth could have declining birth rates, since, like, we are having a pretty difficult time sustaining the population as it is.

[Unreal]

immigration from africa and asia, helps balance the population growth, of course germany and poland do have a negative population growth, but the same is going on in japan....

I dont think this is rooted in the lack religion, more a change in customs

(although I have heard that in the near future nearly all the countrys in Europe will have deacressing popus, (maybe), but is that bad? I dont no....)

[beso negro]

It would be super cool if every continent on Earth could have declining birth rates, since, like, we are have a pretty difficult time sustaining the population as it is.

amen

[Hababi]

Religion has little to nothing to do with it. Declining religion is a product of better education and higher living standards. Ignorance breeds idiocy if you like.


The US is a thorn in the side of that proposal. So too is Ireland.

The higher living standards is the cause of lower birth rates.


That doesn't work. Check the Eastern European nations who lack the standard of living of the western counterparts but also have low birth rates.

But what do they have in common? Lack of religiosity. A result of the influence of the former Soviet Union.


I'd personally suspect social security removing the need to produce children to fund your own retirement being a factor in addition to the high cost of living and mandatory education.

There are of course issues with all of the above, and you'd be quite right to point them out ;)

Actually I think that's a pretty good suggestion and probably is one of the factors involved. And one I hadn't thought of.

So Zero, do you believe low European birth rates will lead to Muslims becomng the majority in Europe and turning the EU into the Super Fundamentalist Anti American Suicide Bombers' League of Nutcases?

:lol: I do think it will result in a shifting demographic. France has a higher birth rate than many other European nations--think that's because native French are procreating? I don't. France has seen a pretty significant influx of immigrants from North Africa and, to a lesser extent, the Middle East. These people are probably driving the reproduction rate much more than native French people.

It would take a while before Muslims would constitute a majority in any of those countries, even France, but if we're speaking long term, it's a possibility.

Keep in mind too that as Muslims become a greater part of the population, there will be a more dedicated push to instill their value set in society, or at the very least, as a political force. No I'm not talking about jihad ;)

The problem in Western Europe is that living costs are high and both artners need to work. Children are a burden and women would rather concentrate on their careers. Though I suppose they should stay at home and clean the house rather than working their way up in society IYO.


This too is a pretty solid suggestion.


The reason Russia has a low birth rate is because half the population's too interested in getting hold of their next bottle of vodka.

:lol: But how does that interfere with reproduction? For Russian men it just makes it easier -_-

[Der Übermensch]

But how does that interfere with reproduction? For Russian men it just makes it easier -_-
Once you have gotten drunk and tried hooking up with a chick, you will then understand the curse of whiskey dick...

[Dave de Sylvia]

So what are they?
Birth control, abortion, the decline of societal male chauvinism, urbanisation making children more financially burdensome, people not wanting to have kids etc.

The US is a thorn in the side of that proposal. So too is Ireland.
Ireland's not really religious anymore.

[Reaganista]

But anyway, just as the thread title suggests, this is about Europe, and the low birth rates and accompanying low to even negative population growth rates.

What will the consequences of this be? How will this affect demographics, social programs, etc.? And should the governments of those countries be working to combat this, and if so, how?

Putin, btw, gave people a day off work recently to procreate.

Oh, and why this is happening, in large part:
1) Less religious populations, less church attendance, less emphasis on procreation
2) Less marriage, more divorce, again less emphasis on procreation.
all of this is easily remedied by paying people more to have kids

[ringworm]

America already does that :)

[Reaganista]

well america isn't having negative population growth

and when i said paying more i meant more
so america couldn't possibly already be doing that

[ringworm]

i was just referring to our horribly abused welfare system where it pays to have more kids

bad attempt at humor :)

[Give me Beer]

The US is a thorn in the side of that proposal. So too is Ireland.

Ireland is coming out of a long period of absolute poverty, think that might have anything to do with it.

In the US, it's really all the poor Mexicans & Blacks that are pro-creating at that speed, want to bet that in the really developped parts of the US, birth-rate ain't all that?

That doesn't work. Check the Eastern European nations who lack the standard of living of the western counterparts but also have low birth rates.

Above a certain level it's really not that applicable, and Eastern Europe is freakin' religious, so there goes your "religious" angle as well. Holy ****.

But what do they have in common? Lack of religiosity. A result of the influence of the former Soviet Union.

Ever been there? :lol:

:lol: I do think it will result in a shifting demographic. France has a higher birth rate than many other European nations--think that's because native French are procreating? I don't. France has seen a pretty significant influx of immigrants from North Africa and, to a lesser extent, the Middle East. These people are probably driving the reproduction rate much more than native French people.

lol @ you not realizing that Germany has like 6 million Turks & numerous other immigrant groups, probably around the same precent as France.

The native French actually do better than the native Germans at pro-creating because of the positive government policies that aim at people making more children. In Germany, holding a job & having kids as a woman isn't all that easy, it's far easier in France. There's your reason.

It would take a while before Muslims would constitute a majority in any of those countries, even France, but if we're speaking long term, it's a possibility.

You mean like 50 years? :lol: Whatever man, I'm not afraid of Muslims.

I mean, Evangelical, Muslim, Catholic, it's all a bunch of uptight assholes & most of 'm don't really care what that book says anyway.

Keep in mind too that as Muslims become a greater part of the population, there will be a more dedicated push to instill their value set in society, or at the very least, as a political force. No I'm not talking about jihad ;)

You sound like all the anti-immigration party. If Muslims become a greater part, you'll also see assholes like you (that live around here) call for them to be thrown out.

[Reaganista]

i was just referring to our horribly abused welfare system where it pays to have more kids
um that's been gone for like 15 years fyi

[Hababi]

Ireland is coming out of a long period of absolute poverty, think that might have anything to do with it.

It's possible. But many former Soviet States remain impoverished, yet have gained no religiosity.


In the US, it's really all the poor Mexicans & Blacks that are pro-creating at that speed, want to bet that in the really developped parts of the US, birth-rate ain't all that?


Mormons and evangelicals also reproduce at solid rates. So do poor whites. It's only white liberals who don't, basically, which bodes well for my side of the isle. Of course, I hope the liberals manage to pass global warming legislation before they marginalize themselves with their lifestyle.


Above a certain level it's really not that applicable, and Eastern Europe is freakin' religious, so there goes your "religious" angle as well. Holy ****.


Depends the country.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/rel_chu_att-religion-church-attendance/AFR




I mean, Evangelical, Muslim, Catholic, it's all a bunch of uptight assholes & most of 'm don't really care what that book says anyway.

Catholics don't make public calls for murder when cartoons are run mocking Jesus.



You sound like all the anti-immigration party. If Muslims become a greater part, you'll also see assholes like you (that live around here) call for them to be thrown out.

Yeesh I wasn't even saying anything bad about them :lol:

I wasn't trying to pass a qualitative judgment on it, I think it's just basic facts and observances. Whether or not it's a good thing, a bad thing, or neither, is another discussion altogether.

[Akira]

I still think that church attendance and population growth is a false correlation that can be much better explained by economics and a distaste for the responsibility of having a family.

[RNR]

Children cost more to have in Europe than in, say, India. In Europe, you will have to actually provide stuff like clothing, toys, a good amount of food, possibly a university education. In the poorer parts of India with the highest birth rates, it's barely anything in comparisson. I know that I would never have more than two kids due to the cost of raising them.

[margin0walker]

i will help the population problems in europe by moving there

[BridgeToSolace]

Catholics don't make public calls for murder when cartoons are run mocking Jesus.

Because it isn't a fundamental part of the Christian religion that you aren't allowed to show depictions of Jesus.

[RNR]

Because it isn't a fundamental part of the Christian religion that you aren't allowed to show depictions of Jesus.

If it was, do you honestly think they would make public calls for murder?

[Reaganista]

pat robertson

[Give me Beer]

It's possible. But many former Soviet States remain impoverished, yet have gained no religiosity.

Mormons and evangelicals also reproduce at solid rates. So do poor whites. It's only white liberals who don't, basically, which bodes well for my side of the isle. Of course, I hope the liberals manage to pass global warming legislation before they marginalize themselves with their lifestyle.


Depends the country.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/rel_chu_att-religion-church-attendance/AFR

You dare cite that one to me? Okay, look at that, check the country right behind the USA. Belgium? I can tell you right now, that if you go to a church here, you will find it solidly EMPTY aside from some old people.

Catholics don't make public calls for murder when cartoons are run mocking Jesus.

They don't anymore, you mean? & actually, if I remember correctly, they have in some parts of Africa. :0

Yeesh I wasn't even saying anything bad about them :lol:

That's 'cause you don't live here, so you just have distant distaste. Had you grown up here, you would be voting Vlaams Belang.

I wasn't trying to pass a qualitative judgment on it, I think it's just basic facts and observances. Whether or not it's a good thing, a bad thing, or neither, is another discussion altogether.

Right ...

[big80smullet]

TBH i think people just don't want kids anymore and people are just going of the idea of marriage. Also it is really expensive to have kids and the mother has to take a year or so of work which can be hard on a house hold struggling to cope already.

I think it just paves the way for immigration from countries which are over populated ie china nigeria india etc. I think its a very nuetral phenomenon.

[Dr Hooch]

The US is a thorn in the side of that proposal. So too is Ireland.

What?

You can't disporve a trend with a counterexample and you certaintly can't try to use a country with a population of >300m as a single piece of "america is prosperous and religious" data.


That doesn't work. Check the Eastern European nations who lack the standard of living of the western counterparts but also have low birth rates.

But what do they have in common? Lack of religiosity. A result of the influence of the former Soviet Union.

But again they have in common a neccessity of both parents working; one through the high cost of living and the other through low low wages.

Keep in mind too that as Muslims become a greater part of the population, there will be a more dedicated push to instill their value set in society, or at the very least, as a political force. No I'm not talking about jihad ;)


You'd be surprised. In Britain certaintly I think muslims tend to vote in a similar way to the more old fashioned christians. (that means you, Cap'n Hates-The-Gays)

[lunchforthesky]

You'd be surprised. In Britain certaintly I think muslims tend to vote in a similar way to the more old fashioned christians. (that means you, Cap'n Hates-The-Gays)

They don't really have a party, cause they aren't left wing so Lib Dems are out. Labour went to war and the Tories still have the trouble of being associated with Enoch Powell and general minor racism.

[VomitStainedCretin]

UK Muslims don't vote for a particular party and only the moderates really vote as I don't think extremists really care for democracy in general.

[-1up!-]

To be honest, I don't see a decline in birth rates as neccessarily a bad thing.

Helps prevent overpopulation and has less strain on the world's resources.

What resources, precisely?

Also, I thought it was common knowledge that Western, developped countries generally share the challenge of keeping a positive population growth through immgration, given the decline of birth rates. It is not a matter of religiosity, but a matter of conditions of living and economic factors. It is the necessity of having two parents on the workplace which is responsible for the decline of babies, not how much you bend over and pray.

But larger immigration implies exterior influence on a society's fundamental values, as already pointed out; matters of cultural and social identity being "diluted" and some reactionary values being tolerated for the sole sake of tolerance may well stir social debate in many developped countries. Quebec is experiencing this as we speak.