What is the worst place on Earth?

[Hababi]

Well? Darfur? North Korea? Iraq? Zimbabwe?

Along with this, what's most important? Would you rather have political freedom but no prosperity, or prosperity but a lack of political freedom?

[Against Miik!]

Haiti. I say this because for one, nobody pays attention to it. Also, in a place like Iraq, you worry about terrorism, something that doesn't affect a lot of people all the time, and the US being there although bad in the long run, offsets things a little bit. Haiti is run by gangs that make it a hell for everybody living there.

[YDload]

Somalia has no government.

Also I would say the Marianas Trench is far from inhabitable.

[Akira]

AG, are you trying to imply that Iraqis have good lives?

[Hababi]

Somalia has no government.


I knew I forgot something :(

[Against Miik!]

Are you trying to imply that Iraqis have good lives?

Hell no. But at least someone cares about them, no matter how misguided the efforts may be.

[YDload]

that doesnt make it better to live in

[Against Miik!]

that doesnt make it better to live in

Fair enough. But it's still better than Haiti.

[Akira]

Hell no. But at least someone cares about them, no matter how misguided the efforts may be.

So now you're saying that someone cares about the Iraqis?

I have been out of the loop I guess...

[Against Miik!]

Wow, this is messed up, and we arent even at double digit posts. All these places are bad places to live. Haiti is the worst imo. It's run by gangsters and thugs and criminals.

Iraq is currently run by the U.S. Also gangsters and thugs and criminals, but in a different sense. They rape a country of its oil and its resources, but they probably won't kidnap you or kill you on the streets.

I know a few US soldiers have gone awry. But I still think most soldiers there are decent enough. At LEAST better Haitian crime lords. Please separate this statement from my statements on the war as a whole and the administration. They are two completely different things, so don't try to make look like a hypocrite.

[-1up!-]

Given that most, probably all of the people in PNWI have not been to two or even one of those places, this thread is extremely stupid.

[Independent_CA]

I voted North Korea. I doubt anyone on these boards has been there and I doubt most of us even know or know of anyone who has. Living in a nation that is closed off from the outside world and exists only to feed the egos of it's dictator and his cronies has got to be one of the most horrid things in the world. Unfortunately, most of the people that live there probably don't know it.

[-1up!-]

Because most of the people that live there haven't been brought up in an environment where freedom is so highly valued, it is not a matter of them not knowing it's one of the most horrid things in the world, it is a matter of them probably not sharing your opinion.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Pennsylvania :p

[spitfirejunky]

It's very difficult to distance yourself from crime, corruption, oppression, etc. in small countries. I voted North Korea, although I think there are a couple African countries that are worse.

[Liebensaft]

Pennsylvania :p

Where?


I vote for Los Angeles. Yuck.

[lfantwister]

los angeles is amazing

i vote for siberia

[Dave de Sylvia]

Where?
Wherever Zero lives <_>

[Lupus]

I have no idea.

[Reaganista]

iraq duh
I voted North Korea. I doubt anyone on these boards has been there and I doubt most of us even know or know of anyone who has. Living in a nation that is closed off from the outside world and exists only to feed the egos of it's dictator and his cronies has got to be one of the most horrid things in the world. Unfortunately, most of the people that live there probably don't know it.
umm fenwood went and he told us it was fun

[Illmatic]

Gary, Indiana

[YDload]

there are websites dedicated to nothing but hi-res photos of that city's deserted landscape. pretty interesting/depressing stuff

[The Door Mouse]

Where's the choice for Somalia?

[YDload]

zero apparently thinks China is worse, if that country does indeed have its own option in the poll!

[dei]

Pittsburgh.

[a0001matt]

Pissberg. Uh yeah I think I would have picked Somalia, but this is a hard decision.

[mick7]

I voted North Korea. I doubt anyone on these boards has been there and I doubt most of us even know or know of anyone who has. Living in a nation that is closed off from the outside world and exists only to feed the egos of it's dictator and his cronies has got to be one of the most horrid things in the world. Unfortunately, most of the people that live there probably don't know it.


yeah i'm going to have to agree with the comment above. north korea would have to be one of the worst places to live, who knows what actual atrocities happen when the rest of the world doesn't know because north korea doesn't let anyone else know. i think kim jong needs to go and a new, republic government has to be put in place.

then again i know this probably would never happen.

[The Noonward Race]

united states man

terrorists, they're everywhere, winning

[Already_Taken]

yeah i'm going to have to agree with the comment above. north korea would have to be one of the worst places to live, who knows what actual atrocities happen when the rest of the world doesn't know because north korea doesn't let anyone else know. i think kim jong needs to go and a new, republic government has to be put in place.

then again i know this probably would never happen.

yeah here's an idea let's start a war with them

[Independent_CA]

Because most of the people that live there haven't been brought up in an environment where freedom is so highly valued, it is not a matter of them not knowing it's one of the most horrid things in the world, it is a matter of them probably not sharing your opinion.

I meant more along the lines of them not understanding it. No matter how you look at it, there's really no reason for the nation of North Korea to exist other than the fact that it's rulers want it to exist for their continued benefit. It is a relic of a past era that has basically stunted the growth and development of half of the Korean people. At lest people in most of those other countries know they've got it bad and that there's something else out there.


umm fenwood went and he told us it was fun
Fenwood is an idiot the last time I checked (which I'll admit was a while ago).

And if he actually did go, he probably thought it was fun because they let him pull the switch on the electric chair for some guy who'd broken his little government issue Kim Jong Il statue while the victims family watched...

[Iskandar]

Venezuela isn't anywhere in the league of Iraq or North Korea.

[Unreal]

Venezuela isn't anywhere in the league of Iraq or North Korea.

indeed

darfur is by far one of the worst places on earth

[RNR]

Anywhere with Negros <_<

[mullets suk]

there are websites dedicated to nothing but hi-res photos of that city's deserted landscape. pretty interesting/depressing stuff

you have any links. i looked around and i didn't see anything.

[YDload]

just as i posted that, i looked around but couldnt find any. it might have just been on another forum and there's no actual site for them

[Aficionado]

Any place in Africa thats not South Africa or Egypt.

[redleaf]

an interesting documentary on North Korea, hidden filming obv
http://www.tv-links.co.uk/listings/9/4679

[TheDarkHorse]

Surprised no one said United States(as a serious answer).

-Badly run, corrupt statewide and natl Government
-Poor education system, which is, not to mention, overpriced for students and underpaying for educators
-The only country where you have the right to be a complete idiot(see KKK)
-The dumping ground for all and any immorality you can think of
-The country with the most enemies, spending more money on defense than every other country put together
-A rich, prosperous country that has a great number of people living in 3rd world conditions

I'm just making a case. I honestly(probably rather) wouldnt say its the "worst place on earth," since thats quite a generalization.

Zero, once again, thinks the world is limited to politico-economical standards and failed to bring up issues like spirituality, society, etc.
Any place in Africa thats not South Africa or Egypt.

I see ignorance is alive and running rampant.

[Hababi]

That post is ironic in so many ways.

But Aficianado even more so--South Africa and Egypt are actually not nearly as nice to live as the Seychelles or Namibia. In fact, Botswana is now better than both of them, and it's arguable that Ghana is, too.

[Hababi]

Because I'm bored and this is easy:

Surprised no one said United States(as a serious answer).

-Badly run, corrupt statewide and natl Government


"Badly run" is subjective. "Corrupt" is not; you're just incorrect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Corruption_Perceptions_Index


-Poor education system, which is, not to mention, overpriced for students and underpaying for educators


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate

You say "poor." We have one of the best education systems in the world. You say overpriced, but no matter what it would cost, you would say this. And underpaying? Check teacher salaries compared to other countries. US is comparable to basically any other country.

-The only country where you have the right to be a complete idiot(see KKK)

Screw freedom!

-The dumping ground for all and any immorality you can think of


Immorality wtf you should at least pick whether you're a loony leftie or rightie, which is it? wtf are you talking about?


-The country with the most enemies,


No I'm pretty sure North Korea accomplishes this. Same with Iran and every other POS regime.

spending more money on defense than every other country put together

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/mil_exp_dol_fig_pergdp-expenditures-dollar-figure-per-gdp


-A rich, prosperous country that has a great number of people living in 3rd world conditions


:lol: You know jack squat about the third world. The worst of our citizens live better than most in third world countries.

I'm just making a case.


A bad one.

[Mr. Ron]

Although I do agree that America is backwards, I don't think its the worst.

[Hababi]

backward how

[YDload]

They play FOOTBALL but they don't hardly ever use their feet :mad:

[Mr. Ron]

backward how

are you blind?

[Hababi]

no u?

[redleaf]

how is that list on wikipedia accurate in terms of corruption, last time i checked corrupt politicians don't publicy advertise it

[Reaganista]

Fenwood is an idiot the last time I checked (which I'll admit was a while ago).

ye nit, fenwood is a true working class hero

And if he actually did go, he probably thought it was fun because they let him pull the switch on the electric chair for some guy who'd broken his little government issue Kim Jong Il statue while the victims family watched...
actually i think he said he liked the park and the people were all friendly and the city was very clean

That post is ironic in so many ways.

But Aficianado even more so--South Africa and Egypt are actually not nearly as nice to live as the Seychelles or Namibia. In fact, Botswana is now better than both of them, and it's arguable that Ghana is, too.
ghana is cool and all but none of those other countries matter

[TheDarkHorse]

"Badly run" is subjective. "Corrupt" is not; you're just incorrect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Corruption_Perceptions_Index

I find it hilarious that you cite a wikipedia article to refute my claim while saying my definitions are subjective. Who do you think writes wikipedia articles?

To deny corruption in the United States government is just plain naive


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate


You say "poor." We have one of the best education systems in the world.
literacy /=education.

I find this especially hard to believe when certain areas in the country cannot even amount to 50% passing in math and reading examinations.

You say overpriced, but no matter what it would cost, you would say this.
yes, I would. We teach students the bare minimum so they can pass standardized tests which measure their minimal skills. In essence, we're not taught how to really think.

And underpaying? Check teacher salaries compared to other countries. US is comparable to basically any other country.

Better yet, check teacher salaries compared to other professions in the states. Our educators are the one's guiding the students to be doctors, lawyers, etc., yet they aren't being paid what they should be.

Immorality wtf you should at least pick whether you're a loony leftie or rightie, which is it? wtf are you talking about?

oh how we need labels so we can have some sort of comprehension in our narrow minds.

Knowing you and your constant criticism of our "anti-Christian" practices, I thought you'd agree.


No I'm pretty sure North Korea accomplishes this. Same with Iran and every other POS regime.
Then why are we spending so much on defense? Why do we, unlike countries in Europe, not have open borders? Who are we really scared of?


http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/mil_exp_dol_fig_pergdp-expenditures-dollar-figure-per-gdp

Clever, Steve. You took the amount a country spends in relation to its GDP and not the total amount of money spent in relation to other countries. You might want to take a look at these links, which are in reference to my original argument:

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/Spending.asp#USMilitarySpending
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures


:lol: You know jack squat about the third world.
considering i'm first generation from a third world country I'd beg to differ.

Not to mention I read about other countries, as opposed to you silly Americans who believe the world is only as far as your country goes.

The worst of our citizens live better than most in third world countries.
You must think middle-class, suburban America is as bad as it gets?



A bad one.
a fair one actually. You called my claims subjective and refuted them with your own uneducated, subjective claims.

[Zebra]

Omaha Nebraska.

[comptonassrobert]

literacy /=education.

I find this especially hard to believe when certain areas in the country cannot even amount to 50% passing in math and reading examinations.

yes, I would. We teach students the bare minimum so they can pass standardized tests which measure their minimal skills. In essence, we're not taught how to really think.


uhhhhh and tell me this, what are the examination passing percentages for math and reading like in darfur and haiti

[Reaganista]

You know jack squat about the third world. The worst of our citizens live better than most in third world countries.
but in fairness you know jack squat about the worst of our citizens

[Orange Piggy]

I find it hilarious that you cite a wikipedia article to refute my claim while saying my definitions are subjective. Who do you think writes wikipedia articles?
Any source is subject to biases. In some ways, wikipedia has an advantage because of persistent peer mediation.

To deny corruption in the United States government is just plain naive
To assert that the US is subject to political inefficiency and widespread corruption on par with the more disreputable nations is even more naive. The burden of proof rests on proving that it exists.

literacy /=education.
Literacy is a vital gateway to education. It is reasonable to assume that countries with a lower percentage of illiteracy have a lower percentage of the uneducated.

Better yet, check teacher salaries compared to other professions in the states. Our educators are the one's guiding the students to be doctors, lawyers, etc., yet they aren't being paid what they should be.
You want to pay teachers the same wage as doctors and lawyers? Didn't you just say education is too expensive?

[PerpetualBurn]

Barnsley.

[Hababi]

I find it hilarious that you cite a wikipedia article to refute my claim while saying my definitions are subjective. Who do you think writes wikipedia articles?


That article reproduces a Transparency International study. Which you would've seen had you actually read it.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/gov_cor-government-corruption



To deny corruption in the United States government is just plain naive

There is corruption everywhere. In the grand scheme of things, the US is not a very corrupt country.


I find this especially hard to believe when certain areas in the country cannot even amount to 50% passing in math and reading examinations.

Ummm 50% on our standards. So, in other words, in a small percentage of school districts, students are far below our standards.

In third world countries, literacy, the basic skill to read and write, runs 25-75%. Try to imagine that. Those kids wouldn't even be able to read the test, let alone take it.


In essence, we're not taught how to really think.


So that explains your posting.


Better yet, check teacher salaries compared to other professions in the states.
Guess what? Same thing is true in other countries. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_pri_tea_sal_aft_15_yea-teacher-salary-after-15-years

So I guess they're all terrible, too.


Then why are we spending so much on defense?


Because, unlike Switzerland, we have to. Same reason South Korea is.


Why do we, unlike countries in Europe, not have open borders?


:lol: They don't have open borders.


Clever, Steve. You took the amount a country spends in relation to its GDP

Because that's what matters, you tool. The US has the largest GDP in the world, of course it's going to spend the most. Do you not understand ratios?



Not to mention I read about other countries

I doubt it.

[VomitStainedCretin]

Barnsley.All the surveys suggest Hull is worse. Portsmouth(my home town) used to come pretty high, but it's improved(supposedly). Apparently in part of Glasgow life expectancy is lower than in many Third World countries.

[dei]

Those neds are running wild.

[TheDarkHorse]

Any source is subject to biases. In some ways, wikipedia has an advantage because of persistent peer mediation.

then its not fair that he attack me for being biased, is it?

To assert that the US is subject to political inefficiency and widespread corruption on par with the more disreputable nations is even more naive. The burden of proof rests on proving that it exists.
I never compared it to other administrations in the world. I said this is a corrupt government. Even the mainstream media will tell you that every now and then.

Literacy is a vital gateway to education. It is reasonable to assume that countries with a lower percentage of illiteracy have a lower percentage of the uneducated.
yet I said the United States has a poor education system.

There is corruption everywhere.
this is not what you said when you refused to visit an African country because of "widespread corruption."

You're government's ripping you off as we speak. You, like most citizens, are just too dull to notice.


In third world countries, literacy, the basic skill to read and write, runs 25-75%. Try to imagine that. Those kids wouldn't even be able to read the test, let alone take it.
you'd be surprised at what they can do.

I'd take street smarts and common sense over minimal math and reading skills anyday.


Guess what? Same thing is true in other countries. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_pri_tea_sal_aft_15_yea-teacher-salary-after-15-years

So I guess they're all terrible, too.
for such a country that can afford it, even more so.

maybe we shouldn't have so many enemies and cut our defense bill.

Because, unlike Switzerland, we have to. Same reason South Korea is.
we brought it upon ourselves no?

would you not say a country with perpetual threats and plenty of enemies is not in a bad situation, even one worse than others?

:lol: They don't have open borders.
I thought you read?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement

once again, why so many enemies?

Because that's what matters, you tool.
but its not what I said now is it? Seems it only matters because it was part of your piss-poor attempt at refuting my argument.

I doubt it.
If you only took some time to step out of your "Greatest country in the world," you'll see that compared to everyone else, we're just not doing it right.
I beg you, put your ignorance aside for just a week and do some reading, and if you're able, do some traveling.

[shaqadelic]

you'd be surprised at what they can do.


Yep true. Most of what is traditionally considered Third World Countries have literacy rate higher than 75% according to UN statistics. zero putting it 25% - 75%? He needs to do some extra reading.

[Hababi]

124 Oman 74.4
125 Tunisia 74.3
126 Vanuatu 74.0
127 Cambodia 73.6
127 Kenya 73.6
129 Gabon 71.0
130 Madagascar 70.6
131 Algeria 69.8
133 Guatemala 69.1
134 Uganda 68.9
135 Laos 68.7
136 Cameroon 67.9
136 Zambia 67.9
138 Angola 66.8
138 Nigeria 66.8
140 Djibouti 65.5
141 Democratic Republic of Congo 65.3
142 Malawi 64.1
143 Rwanda 64.0
144 Morocco 61.6 [4]
145 India 61.0
146 Sudan 59.0
147 Burundi 58.9
148 Timor-Leste 58.6
149 Papua New Guinea 57.3
150 Eritrea 56.7
151 Comoros 56.2
152 Egypt 55.6
153 Pakistan 54.2
154 Ghana 54.1
155 Togo 53.0
156 Haiti 51.9
157 Mauritania 51.2
158 Yemen 49.0
159 Central African Republic 48.6
160 Nepal 48.6
161 Côte d’Ivoire 48.1
162 Bhutan 47.0
163 Mozambique 46.5
164 Ethiopia 41.5
165 Bangladesh 41.1
166 Guinea 41.0
167 Guinea-Bissau 39.6
168 Senegal 39.3
169 Gambia 37.8
170 Afghanistan 36.0
171 Benin 33.6
172 Sierra Leone 29.6
173 Chad 25.5
174 Mali 19.0
175 Niger 14.4
176 Burkina Faso 12.8

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate

[Independent_CA]

ye nit, fenwood is a true working class hero

Oh yeah that's right, I forgot. He's done loads for the Amerikkkan working class.


actually i think he said he liked the park and the people were all friendly and the city was very clean
A nice park, a clean city, and friendly people...well that certainly justifies 50+ years of oppression from a fascist government. Sign me up.

[Reaganista]

umm it's not fascist

Oh yeah that's right, I forgot. He's done loads for the Amerikkkan working class
no one in the first world is proletariat

[Reaganista]

literacy rate is unfairly biased against countries that hate women

[Mr. Ron]

umm it's not fascist


no one in the first world is proletariat

Hows that? Just wondering.

[Reaganista]

http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/art/animation/wwc.html

[shaqadelic]

124 Oman 74.4
125 Tunisia 74.3
126 Vanuatu 74.0
127 Cambodia 73.6
127 Kenya 73.6
129 Gabon 71.0
130 Madagascar 70.6
131 Algeria 69.8
133 Guatemala 69.1
134 Uganda 68.9
135 Laos 68.7
136 Cameroon 67.9
136 Zambia 67.9
138 Angola 66.8
138 Nigeria 66.8
140 Djibouti 65.5
141 Democratic Republic of Congo 65.3
142 Malawi 64.1
143 Rwanda 64.0
144 Morocco 61.6 [4]
145 India 61.0
146 Sudan 59.0
147 Burundi 58.9
148 Timor-Leste 58.6
149 Papua New Guinea 57.3
150 Eritrea 56.7
151 Comoros 56.2
152 Egypt 55.6
153 Pakistan 54.2
154 Ghana 54.1
155 Togo 53.0
156 Haiti 51.9
157 Mauritania 51.2
158 Yemen 49.0
159 Central African Republic 48.6
160 Nepal 48.6
161 Côte d’Ivoire 48.1
162 Bhutan 47.0
163 Mozambique 46.5
164 Ethiopia 41.5
165 Bangladesh 41.1
166 Guinea 41.0
167 Guinea-Bissau 39.6
168 Senegal 39.3
169 Gambia 37.8
170 Afghanistan 36.0
171 Benin 33.6
172 Sierra Leone 29.6
173 Chad 25.5
174 Mali 19.0
175 Niger 14.4
176 Burkina Faso 12.8

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate

Yeah exactly. Most of what is traditionally considered Third World countries, their literacy rate is over your 75% highest point.

[Mr. Ron]

http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/art/animation/wwc.html

For some reason....I read proletariat as "bourgeoisie" the first time....hmm...don't mind me.

[Independent_CA]

umm it's not fascist
You're right, I should have said totalitarian. Either way it's a sad and pathetic example of communism.


no one in the first world is proletariat
You've got to be kidding. Tell that to all the migrant workers in the US or to the people who work 50 to 60 hours a week in factories and such. That site you posted showed a middle class lifestyle. There are plenty of people in America who work hard and still cannot afford to live that lifestyle.

[Iskandar]

You're right, I should have said totalitarian. Either way it's a sad and pathetic example of communism.It's not really an example of communism at all. It's just a dictatorship.

[Independent_CA]

It's not really an example of communism at all. It's just a dictatorship.

Hence it being a sad and pathetic example of it. It goes to my earlier point that it's a state that really has no reason for existing.

[Smokey D]

I thought you read?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement

That's within the EU, a free trade zone.

Europe doesn't have open borders with countries outside the EU, and even Britain and some other places are exempt.

[Hababi]

Yeah exactly. Most of what is traditionally considered Third World countries, their literacy rate is over your 75% highest point.

Those constitute the majority of countries that I consider 3rd world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

I'd rate countries from 120 down as true third world countries. Obviously this is subjective, but I don't see dividing the world up between 20 or 30 first world countries and then the rest being third world countries.

[Iskandar]

Those constitute the majority of countries that I consider 3rd world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

I'd rate countries from 120 down as true third world countries. Obviously this is subjective, but I don't see dividing the world up between 20 or 30 first world countries and then the rest being third world countries.Looks like Canada and Scandinavia are ahead of you.:cool:

I was surprised that Libya was at the very top of the medium range, just short of being considered a developed nation. I don't have a very high opinion of North Africa.

[Hababi]

Looks like Canada and Scandinavia are ahead of you.:cool:

Barely. Functionally they're in the same category.

I was surprised that Libya was at the very top of the medium range, just short of being considered a developed nation. I don't have a very high opinion of North Africa.

Keep in mind the factor of oil wealth. I do have some qualms about the overall classification system, because I'm not sure it represents human development for the median. Equatorial Guinea is ranked above Namibia, but Namibia is a better nation. Equatorial Guinea will only be better if they overthrow their government.

[Iskandar]

Barely. Functionally they're in the same category.Still ahead of you.:cool: And with some of the highest standards of living in the world.
Keep in mind the factor of oil wealth. I do have some qualms about the overall classification system, because I'm not sure it represents human development for the median. Equatorial Guinea is ranked above Namibia, but Namibia is a better nation. Equatorial Guinea will only be better if they overthrow their government.I dunno if Libya has oil, actually. The oil's mainly in the Persian Gulf. That's how the Gulf states have been able to become so developed so quickly.

[Hababi]

Still ahead of you.:cool: And with some of the highest standards of living in the world.
I dunno if Libya has oil, actually. The oil's mainly in the Persian Gulf. That's how the Gulf states have been able to become so developed so quickly.

The Libyan economy depends primarily upon revenues from the oil sector, which constitute practically all export earnings and about one-quarter of gross domestic product (GDP). These oil revenues and a small population give Libya one of the highest GDPs per person in Africa

Quoting wikipedia :(
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya#Economy

[Iskandar]

Oh, I see. Well, I'm glad they do have oil then or Libya would be in a much worse state.

[Hababi]

Oh, I see. Well, I'm glad they do have oil then or Libya would be in a much worse state.

At least then they'd overthrow Quadafi. Relative prosperity allows him to maintain his grip on power.

Think of it this way: Libya has more money than Ghana, but where, between the two, would you rather live? I'd pick Ghana.

[Iskandar]

At least then they'd overthrow Quadafi. Relative prosperity allows him to maintain his grip on power.

Think of it this way: Libya has more money than Ghana, but where, between the two, would you rather live? I'd pick Ghana.But development means stability for when Qaddafi dies or gets kicked out or whatever (most likely dies).

You seem inconsistent to me. I've seen you argue that poverty allows dictators to keep their hold on power. Now you're arguing prosperity does. You're a man of contradictions, Steve.

[Hababi]

But development means stability for when Qaddafi dies or gets kicked out or whatever (most likely dies).

I don't see stability when he dies. I think a power vacuum, that could potentially destabilize the country and diminish it, economically, could result.

You seem inconsistent to me. I've seen you argue that poverty allows dictators to keep their hold on power. Now you're arguing prosperity does. You're a man of contradictions, Steve.

The people can not be too well off or too poorly off. Either is a threat to the dictator.

[Iskandar]

I don't see stability when he dies. I think a power vacuum, that could potentially destabilize the country and diminish it, economically, could result.It doesn't strike me as a particularly unstable country, for Africa.
The people can not be too well off or too poorly off. Either is a threat to the dictator.Way to worm your way out of contradiction.:p

But I agree. Either a poor, starving population or a more wealthy, informed population can be a threat. The key, I think, is to maintain the illusion of progressing development without really ever getting there. Kim Jong-Il is a master of this.

[Hababi]

It doesn't strike me as a particularly unstable country, for Africa.

It isn't now. It may transition like Togo did...but that's not really that great of a thing. The people need Democracy.
and Christianity


But I agree. Either a poor, starving population or a more wealthy, informed population can be a threat. The key, I think, is to maintain the illusion of progressing development without really ever getting there. Kim Jong-Il is a master of this.

You got it :cool:

[Iskandar]

It isn't now. It may transition like Togo did...but that's not really that great of a thing. The people need Democracy.Why do you keep capitalizing "democracy"? It's so ... American.
and Christianity[/QUOTE]Yeah, the Gulf states and Israel are in horrible shape without Christianity.

[Hababi]

Why do you keep capitalizing "democracy"? It's so ... American.

Why not? :p

and Christianity[/QUOTE]Yeah, the Gulf states and Israel are in horrible shape without Christianity.[/QUOTE]

The Gulf states suck. Israel is ok but that's because it's Judeo. Judeo/Judeo-Christian=ok.

[Mr. Ron]

Why not? :p

and ChristianityYeah, the Gulf states and Israel are in horrible shape without Christianity.[/QUOTE]

The Gulf states suck. Israel is ok but that's because it's Judeo. Judeo/Judeo-Christian=ok.[/QUOTE]

lol

[Iskandar]

Why not? :p

and ChristianityYeah, the Gulf states and Israel are in horrible shape without Christianity.[/QUOTE]

The Gulf states suck. Israel is ok but that's because it's Judeo. Judeo/Judeo-Christian=ok.[/QUOTE]The Gulf states are quite rich and modernized, actually.

I know Islam is a threat to Christianity and all , but it's an Abrahamic religion and probably no further from Christianity than Judaism is.

[Hababi]

Yeah, the Gulf states and Israel are in horrible shape without Christianity.

The Gulf states suck. Israel is ok but that's because it's Judeo. Judeo/Judeo-Christian=ok.[/QUOTE]The Gulf states are quite rich and modernized, actually.[/QUOTE]

Which ones are you speaking of? Because, except Bahrain, they're all backwards theocracies with highly unequal distribution of wealth and repressive societal rules.

I know Islam is a threat to Christianity and all , but it's an Abrahamic religion and probably no further from Christianity than Judaism is.

The difference is that Judaism gave birth, essentially, to both. Christianity didn't give birth to Islam.

[Iskandar]

Which ones are you speaking of? Because, except Bahrain, they're all backwards theocracies with highly unequal distribution of wealth and repressive societal rules.They're not backwards, they're thoroughly modern, wealthy nations. They just need political reform.
The difference is that Judaism gave birth, essentially, to both. Christianity didn't give birth to Islam.Wherever did you get this stupid idea that Christianity is the cure-all of everything? It seems like a relatively new development for you. Either way, it's a ridiculous over-simplification, akin to my saying "all the world's problems stem from class conflict," except I wouldn't say that.:)

[Hababi]

They're not backwards, they're thoroughly modern, wealthy nations.

For the privileged of their societies.


Wherever did you get this stupid idea that Christianity is the cure-all of everything? It seems like a relatively new development for you. Either way, it's a ridiculous over-simplification, akin to my saying "all the world's problems stem from class conflict," except I wouldn't say that.:)

Dude I've been hyping Christianity for years ;)

[Iskandar]

For the privileged of their societies.You think America is egalitarian?Dude I've been hyping Christianity for years ;)But not pushing this silly notion that Christianity can single-handedly transform the world. It certainly didn't do much for the masses of pre-Enlightenment Europe.

[Hababi]

You think America is egalitarian?


In comparison to those countries, America is a Marxist utopia.

But not pushing this silly notion that Christianity can single-handedly transform the world. It certainly didn't do much for the masses of pre-Enlightenment Europe.

Eh they were still adapting.

[Iskandar]

In comparison to those countries, America is a Marxist utopia.Marxism isn't utopian.:angry:
Eh they were still adapting.No, pre-Enlightenment Europe sucked hard, and it was devoutly Christian. I see a flaw in your thesis.

[Hababi]

Marxism isn't utopian.:angry:
No, pre-Enlightenment Europe sucked hard, and it was devoutly Christian. I see a flaw in your thesis.

The flaw was with other factors of the era.

[pulseczar]

Why the hell is Venezuela there? Yeah they have a wacky leader but there are other countries in Central/South America that are much worse off.

[Iskandar]

The flaw was with other factors of the era.So you're admitting that religion isn't the sole factor in determining the outcome of a society, as you seemed to be.

[Hababi]

So you're admitting that religion isn't the sole factor in determining the outcome of a society, as you seemed to be.

Sole factor? It's not the sole factor, no.

[Iskandar]

Sole factor? It's not the sole factor, no.Let's start with some common ground: I think that religion can be a beneficial factor in society.

[Hababi]

Let's start with some common ground: I think that religion can be a beneficial factor in society.

Oh good, at least we have that much in common.

Now, let's see if we have this going:

Today, as the religions are practiced, Christianity serves a much better influence on societies than Islam, in general.

[pulseczar]

Oh good, at least we have that much in common.

Now, let's see if we have this going:

Today, as the religions are practiced, Christianity serves a much better influence on societies than Islam, in general.

loooool. so society means white america to you?

[Hababi]

loooool. so society means white america to you?

no.

[Iskandar]

Oh good, at least we have that much in common.

Now, let's see if we have this going:

Today, as the religions are practiced, Christianity serves a much better influence on societies than Islam, in general.Nope. The problem is that Christianity and Islam are not monolithic entities.

Now, I am prepared to agree that a strict, conservative interpretation of Islam, prominent throughout much of the Middle East, has a detrimental effect on the region, especially for women.:)

[Mr. Ron]

All religion is corrosive to society as time goes on.

[Hababi]

Now, I am prepared to agree that a strict, conservative interpretation of Islam, prominent throughout much of the Middle East, has a detrimental effect on the region, especially for women.:)

ok good.

[Iskandar]

ok good.But that's nothing like what you're suggesting. I would argue that the answer is for a more liberal and modern interpretation of Islam to take hold. You just want to launch another crusade and convert the heathens while slaying the unwilling or whatever.

[Hababi]

But that's nothing like what you're suggesting.

Going on from that, look at Africa. The free societies who have made progress post-colonial? Christian. The tyrannies? Products of either Islam (Sudan, Burkina Faso) or Marxism (Zimbabwe, CAR), or a lack of strongly held Christianity (Togo, Benin).

[Iskandar]

The tyrannies? Products of either Islam (Sudan, Burkina Faso) or Marxism (Zimbabwe, CAR), or a lack of strongly held Christianity (Togo, Benin).See, I don't think Islam and Marxism are the devil, unlike you, so I'm not so quick to blame the problems of certain nations on them. Not that I think they're particularly responsible for Africa's problems at all.

[Hababi]

See, I don't think Islam and Marxism are the devil, unlike you, so I'm not so quick to blame the problems of certain nations on them. Not that I think they're particularly responsible for Africa's problems at all.

The interpretation of Islam prevalent in West Africa has led to this being the last place on Earth (along with Sudan) where slavery is practiced. Also it's to blame for religious conflict in Nigeria.

[Iskandar]

The interpretation of Islam prevalent in West Africa has led to this being the last place on Earth (along with Sudan) where slavery is practiced. Also it's to blame for religious conflict in Nigeria.Okay. You have yet to win me over with this argument, to be honest.

[Mr. Ron]

The interpretation of Islam prevalent in West Africa has led to this being the last place on Earth (along with Sudan) where slavery is practiced. Also it's to blame for religious conflict in Nigeria.

key word.

[Iskandar]

I seriously doubt it's the only or even the most important factor in slavery in West Africa.

[Super Nintendo]

well im from venezuela and i can say that we are not even close to be the worst place on earth... and well we are a poorer (is taht a word?) country that what we used to be... thanx to our president... but thats not the point... there are a lot of worse places on earth, sadly, mostly because of the same reason [corrupt people... lack of resources (not our case), or just the social/economical system isnt good enough].

[Hababi]

I seriously doubt it's the only or even the most important factor in slavery in West Africa.

They feel that Islam gives them the right to own slaves, and that it's a Divine right, thus no government can take it away.

[big80smullet]

i think that all religions can be misinterpreted and twisted to meet someones needs. Thats why state and church should be seperate. The church can deal with peoples souls while the state can deal with peoples taxes.

EDIT: Australia's number 3! :thumb:

[Iskandar]

They feel that Islam gives them the right to own slaves, and that it's a Divine right, thus no government can take it away.Then it's their fault for being idiots, because I don't recall any part of Islam being pro-slavery.

You, however, have called the Qur'an "a book of war," so I'm not surprised you're eager to blame the problems of Africa on Islam.

[Reaganista]

christianity is bad for women too

[Reaganista]

Those constitute the majority of countries that I consider 3rd world.
actually third world is a pretty rigid and now completely defunct classification
since the soviet union doesnt exist anymore and all that

[RNR]

christianity is bad for women too

I love the naked comment with absolutely no support, discussion, or punctuation. Ask any Christian women how they like Christianity and hear how happy they have been tricked into being. Who are you to claim that Christianity is bad for women when no Christian women would agree? (other than, like, Warren Jeffs' slave girls, but that's not Christianity)

[Reaganista]

like their opinion has any relevance

[RNR]

You can't just mush all Christian women into one category. Some are pretty smart and some (a lot) are like that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JARF7q2S6ns

[shaqadelic]

Now, I am prepared to agree that a strict, conservative interpretation of Islam, prominent throughout much of the Middle East, has a detrimental effect on the region, especially for women.:)

Tell that to the Minangkabau.

[margin0walker]

why is venezuela on this list

[Dave de Sylvia]

like their opinion has any relevance

hahaha

[ringworm]

Surprised no one said United States
yeah, anywhere where a black man can murder a white woman, get a not guilty verdict, then write a book about how he commited the crime is a pretty bad place :)



seriously, i would say Darfur, only because I know nothing about the other choices, and not much about Darfur either

[Iskandar]

Tell that to the Minangkabau.What's that?
why is venezuela on this listBecause Zero has this weird obsession with Hugo Chavez and thinks Venezuela is North Korea or something.

[Super Nintendo]

well venezuela is in they way to communism anyway...

[shaqadelic]

What's that?


The largest matrilineal society in the world. Also practices devout adherence to the 'conservative and 'strict' interpretation of Islam that you spoke of.

[VomitStainedCretin]

The largest matrilineal society in the world who practices devout adherence to the 'conservative and 'strict' interpretation of Islam that you spoke of.Located primarily in Sumatra and wear funny hats, am I correct?

[BridgeToSolace]

I love the naked comment with absolutely no support, discussion, or punctuation. Ask any Christian women how they like Christianity and hear how happy they have been tricked into being. Who are you to claim that Christianity is bad for women when no Christian women would agree? (other than, like, Warren Jeffs' slave girls, but that's not Christianity)

Yeah, whether the women actually feel oppressed is irrelevant. That just means they're being oppressed well :thumb:

Not that I'm comparing the two situations, but most peasants didn't feel oppressed by monarchs a few hundred years ago. Why? Because they didn't know anything different.

If you wanna go by the opinion of the woman, then Islam isn't oppressive either.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/08/world/middleeast/08women.html?ex=1307419200%26en=e2d514a70cc63246%2 6ei=5088%26partner=rssnyt%26emc=rss

[shaqadelic]

Located primarily in Sumatra and wear funny hats, am I correct?

Yep.

[nowhesingsnowhesobs]

lol venezuela

[shaqadelic]

Yeah, whether the women actually feel oppressed is irrelevant. That just means they're being oppressed well

If you wanna go by the opinion of the woman, then Islam isn't oppressive either.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/08/world/middleeast/08women.html?ex=1307419200%26en=e2d514a70cc63246%2 6ei=5088%26partner=rssnyt%26emc=rss

If you wanna liberate people, the first thing not to do is to think of them as some conditioned robot and assuming that they have no worthwhile opinions.

[Iskandar]

well venezuela is in they way to communism anyway...No they're not and North Korea isn't communist.:)

[misterfitch]

burundi

[Iskandar]

The Gambia.

[Reaganista]

You can't just mush all Christian women into one category. Some are pretty smart and some (a lot) are like that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JARF7q2S6ns

even if the smartest person in the world was a christian woman her opinion on whether christianity was bad for her or not would be completely irrelevant
If you wanna liberate people, the first thing not to do is to think of them as some conditioned robot and assuming that they have no worthwhile opinions.
no it isn't
espeically when they are conditioned..

[shaqadelic]

no it isn't
espeically when they are conditioned..

So we ignore what they feel about things, what they want and what is the most important reform for them?

[BridgeToSolace]

If you wanna liberate people, the first thing not to do is to think of them as some conditioned robot and assuming that they have no worthwhile opinions.

So aliens can come liberate the world (killing our leaders, destroying our religions, crippling our infrastructure) because our social values are stupid and counterproductive (to them), Not to mention the fact that we herd the animals of the earth and slaughter them! How disgusting, that humans think they're better than animals!

But that's cool, because aliens think they know better than we do. Humans are just conditioned idiots, they say.

No, not really.

The first thing to do when liberating people, is to make sure they need liberation.

[misterfitch]

definitely burundi.

[Reaganista]

So we ignore what they feel about things, what they want and what is the most important reform for them?
considering that they couldn't possibly answer that last question
then of course

[shaqadelic]

considering that they couldn't possibly answer that last question
then of course

O really? Looking at that research BridgeToSolace cited on Middle Eastern women, a strong majority of Muslim women believe they should have the right to vote without influence, work outside the home and serve in the highest levels of government. Seems to me they could answer the last question pretty fine despite how 'conditioned' they are.

So aliens can come liberate the world (killing our leaders, destroying our religions, crippling our infrastructure) because our social values are stupid and counterproductive (to them), Not to mention the fact that we herd the animals of the earth and slaughter them! How disgusting, that humans think they're better than animals!

But that's cool, because aliens think they know better than we do. Humans are just conditioned idiots, they say.

No, not really.

Erm, I think you misread my post. I said 'first thing NOT to do'.

The first thing to do when liberating people, is to make sure they need liberation.

Yep, and considering their opinions irrelevant doesn't help you understand them.

[Reaganista]

O really? Looking at that research BridgeToSolace cited on Middle Eastern women, a strong majority of Muslim women believe they should have the right to vote without influence, work outside the home and serve in the highest levels of government. Seems to me they could answer the last question pretty fine despite how 'conditioned' they are.
i was talking about christian women
and no, unless a strong majority also support equal rights under the law, reproductive rights and the abolition of islam then they dont know what's good for them

[Det_Nosnip]

Whoever said China is a moron...I've been there and it's amazing. There are alot of people who have it very rough, but compared to Iraq, North Korea, or Darfur? Doesn't even come close.

[VomitStainedCretin]

Whoever said China is a moron...I've been there and it's amazing. There are alot of people who have it very rough, but compared to Iraq, North Korea, or Darfur? Doesn't even come close.But they shut down Starbucks in the Forbidden City! They must not be free enough, they must have horrible living standards if they can't drink over priced lukewarm coffee.:eek:

[Oriah]

Whoever said China is a moron...I've been there and it's amazing. There are alot of people who have it very rough, but compared to Iraq, North Korea, or Darfur? Doesn't even come close.

I agree, I was in China for the entire summer and its no where near as bad as people think, fyi they are the next superpower.

And I would add maybe Myanmar and Laos, talk about poverty to the 10th degree. The streets of its major city was of gravel and dirt. There are beggars and diseased children Everywhere. It was a real eye opener for me to see how some people in the world live. :(

[shaqadelic]

i was talking about christian women
and

Well, yeah doesn't matter Christian or Muslim or whatever women, it is not like all of them don't have access to outside media.


no, unless a strong majority also support equal rights under the law, reproductive rights and the abolition of islam then they dont know what's good for them

Arbitrary, much?

I don't see anything in the article that explicitly say that they were polled whether they support equality under law. However, looking at their demand for equal participation in public life, it can be assumed that's what they want.

Reproductive rights cover a variety of rights with varied urgency. Freedom from coerced sterilization and contraception are obvious priorities.

Abolition of Islam? Since it has been shown that Islam can be devoutly practiced in matriarchal society, abolishing the religion is not as beneficial to women's rights as changing the interpretation. But since you hate religion, what to do. haha

[VomitStainedCretin]

And I would add maybe Myanmar and Laos, talk about poverty to the 10th degree. The streets of its major city was of gravel and dirt. There are beggars and diseased children Everywhere. It was a real eye opener for me to see how some people in the world live. :(Myanmar sounds considerably worse than many places in the polling options; military junta, ethnic cleansing and civil war. Plus the government is loopy enough to move the capital to the middle of nowhere based on what an astrologer tells them.

[Reaganista]

Well, yeah doesn't matter Christian or Muslim or whatever women, it is not like all of them don't have access to outside media.

it's not an issue of access
Arbitrary, much?

no

I don't see anything in the article that explicitly say that they were polled whether they support equality under law. However, looking at their demand for equal participation in public life, it can be assumed that's what they want.
the equal rights amendment failed in america because of rightist christian opposition

Reproductive rights cover a variety of rights with varied urgency. Freedom from coerced sterilization and contraception are obvious priorities.

o ok wtf does that have to do with anything

Abolition of Islam? Since it has been shown that Islam can be devoutly practiced in matriarchal society,
matriarchal society is not in women's interests
abolishing the religion is not as beneficial to women's rights as changing the interpretation. But since you hate religion, what to do. haha
of course it is the religion hates women regardless of how that hate is manifested

[Iskandar]

I agree, I was in China for the entire summer and its no where near as bad as people think, fyi they are the next superpower.

And I would add maybe Myanmar and Laos, talk about poverty to the 10th degree. The streets of its major city was of gravel and dirt. There are beggars and diseased children Everywhere. It was a real eye opener for me to see how some people in the world live. :(Laos sounds terrible. Landlocked, isolationist, single-party, etc.

[big80smullet]

I think that mali or one of the other west saharan nations would be the worst to live in.

[Hababi]

I think that mali or one of the other west saharan nations would be the worst to live in.

Yeah most of them have few valuable natural resources, little modern infrastructure, extremely low literacy, rampant crime...thanks in part due to reactionary Islam, btw. But they're pretty terrible places.

[Iskandar]

Yeah most of them have few valuable natural resources, little modern infrastructure, extremely low literacy, rampant crime...thanks in part due to reactionary Islam, btw. But they're pretty terrible places.Sub-Saharan Africa is worse.

[Hababi]

Sub-Saharan Africa is worse.

With the possible exception of the Congo, not really. Burkina Faso, Mali, Niger, and Mauritania are all worse than any sub-saharan African country. Sub Saharan Africa is where you have the best hope for the future of Africa.

[Iskandar]

With the possible exception of the Congo, not really. Burkina Faso, Mali, Niger, and Mauritania are all worse than any sub-saharan African country. Sub Saharan Africa is where you have the best hope for the future of Africa.I thought Niger was Sub-Saharan, and Burkina Faso. Was I wrong?

Sub-Saharan Africa has the advantage of more political freedom - but only in some places. It has some pretty horrific economies as well.

[Hababi]

I thought Niger was Sub-Saharan, and Burkina Faso.

They're kinda split but in identity they're solidly North.

[Hababi]

I thought Niger was Sub-Saharan, and Burkina Faso. Was I wrong?

Sub-Saharan Africa has the advantage of more political freedom - but only in some places. It has some pretty horrific economies as well.

Keep in mind that with many sub-saharan african countries, while you have economic hardship, you also have a lot of hope for the future. If Congo got on track, it could become an incredibly prosperous country. Ghana's economy is pretty good for Africa. Other countries have similar possibilities. But Niger, Mali, etc.? it's basically hopeless.

[big80smullet]

Personally the worst place in the world for me would be quebec. Cause i hate the fench and i don't think that its right that anyone would want to be french if they could avoid it.

[Iskandar]

Keep in mind that with many sub-saharan african countries, while you have economic hardship, you also have a lot of hope for the future. If Congo got on track, it could become an incredibly prosperous country. Ghana's economy is pretty good for Africa. Other countries have similar possibilities. But Niger, Mali, etc.? it's basically hopeless.I would say places like Central African Republic (hope I've got the right country) are pretty hopeless.

[big80smullet]

Mali and malawi are the countries you always see ravaged by drought and the ground is all baked and cracked. Apparently mali has a bit of gold but its way out in the middle of the desert and they dont have the infrestructure to mine it. Im sure i read that somewhere

[Hababi]

I would say places like Central African Republic (hope I've got the right country) are pretty hopeless.

If you can neutralize the tsetse fly, CAR could be ok.

[Hababi]

Mali and malawi are the countries you always see ravaged by drought and the ground is all baked and cracked. Apparently mali has a bit of gold but its way out in the middle of the desert and they dont have the infrestructure to mine it. Im sure i read that somewhere

Ghana is the biggest place for gold, probably, and they've actually remained pretty good with mining it. Ghana's gold was expropriated by Sudanic belt kingdoms, pre-colonization.

Malawi shouldn't be a country. It should be divided and added to other countries.

[Smokey D]

Mali and malawi are the countries you always see ravaged by drought and the ground is all baked and cracked. Apparently mali has a bit of gold but its way out in the middle of the desert and they dont have the infrestructure to mine it. Im sure i read that somewhere

Mali was the source of like 70% of the world's gold in the Middle Ages.

[big80smullet]

Yeah butpoint i was making is if someone pumped some money into mali they'd be able to get gold.

Why don't they make heaps of nike factories in that part of the world. The wages have gotta be lower than in south east asia? also freetown is the second biggest port in africa, so they could ship all their goods from there.

[Smokey D]

It's politically unstable and set up costs are probably too high at the moment.

[big80smullet]

I reckon theres a few bucks to be made.

[Hababi]

Yeah butpoint i was making is if someone pumped some money into mali they'd be able to get gold.


Gold mining is going on, but when you have one or two resources, you are a slave to the whim of international markets. One African country, I forget which (I'm thinking Zambia or Zimbabwe) was a major copper producer, back in the 70's...when the price of copper went down, the economy suffered tremendously. A country whose economy can not be diversified, generally, is going to struggle. Geography isn't in Mali's favor, either. Sea ports are vital. Ghana, Namibia, South Africa, Libya...the more economically successful African countries all have seaports.

Why don't they make heaps of nike factories in that part of the world. The wages have gotta be lower than in south east asia? also freetown is the second biggest port in africa, so they could ship all their goods from there.

Security. Nike sets up in stable third world countries; Mali and Niger are far from stable. Cities that centuries ago were major areas are now dusty shadows of what they once were.

[Smokey D]

I reckon theres a few bucks to be made.

There is, but multi nationals are only going to establish themselves if they aren't liable to lose their capital to nationalisation or face other unpredictable costs.

[Hababi]

There is, but multi nationals are only going to establish themselves if they aren't liable to lose their capital to nationalisation or face other unpredictable costs.

and at that point, there's only a marginal bit of utility for the broader population. Much of the profit derived leaves the country, and much of what remains enters into the pockets of corrupt government officials. Standard of living raises a bit, but countries can not rely on multi-nationals to develop them, solely.

[Smokey D]

This is true.

Though historically well managed interaction with multinationals has dramatically increased standards of living, even in fairly corrupt environments -- see China, Singapore and South Korea for some examples.

[griftadan]

Because most of the people that live there haven't been brought up in an environment where freedom is so highly valued, it is not a matter of them not knowing it's one of the most horrid things in the world, it is a matter of them probably not sharing your opinion.

our opinion is better than theirs

[shaqadelic]

it's not an issue of access

You can be conditioned but if you can see other people's lives, it make the conditioning ineffective.

matriarchal society is not in women's interests


A matriarchal society welcome bettering women's rights and would consider it a priority.

of course it is the religion hates women regardless of how that hate is manifested

If the religion can be devoutly practiced in a matriarchal society, then hatred for women isn't one of its prevailing pillars.

the equal rights amendment failed in america because of rightist christian opposition

So?

o ok wtf does that have to do with anything

You said reproductive rights which cover a number of rights. Some are more important than others. So I named the important ones.

[Reaganista]

You can be conditioned but if you can see other people's lives, it make the conditioning ineffective.

wtf no it doesn't you have to see other people's lives in order to understand the ways in which your own tortured existed is comsologically superior to theirs

A matriarchal society welcome bettering women's rights and would consider it a priority.
If the religion can be devoutly practiced in a matriarchal society, then hatred for women isn't one of its prevailing pillars.

all aledged 'matriarchies' are based on assumptions and gender roles created by the paternalistic society where 'women's qualities' are just taken to be positives
So?

so there's an example of religious women who obviously have no idea wtf is good for them
which runs contrary to your idea that anyone with relatively free access to information will make the best choice for them

You said reproductive rights which cover a number of rights. Some are more important than others. So I named the important ones.
the most important one is the right of a women to do whatever the **** she wants with her vagina and uterus

[RIP Ian Curtis]

I personally reckon Haiti, because the whole world has gone "meh, write-off", whereas at least the other places get a measure of attention.

EDIT: Worse than the other places on the list, some of the other ones y'all have mentioned are just as sh'it or shi'ttier than Haiti.

[big80smullet]

I wouldn't fancy living in like compton or something. I'd probably survive with my comical australian accent though.

[RIP Ian Curtis]

Yeah there's always bad bits of places. I mean same as I wouldn't fancy living in a tent-town in Halls Creek or on the outskirts of Broome. But there's a difference between bad areas and countries that have gone to sh'it.

[big80smullet]

Tasmania.

[VomitStainedCretin]

Mali was the source of like 70% of the world's gold in the Middle Ages.Apparently one of the Songhai Emperors distributed so much gold on his pilgrimage to Mecca the Egyptian economy went into recession for decades.

Mali has its challenges but Niger seems worse off, though it does have large uranium reserves.