An Arms Race For Everyone!!!

[Independent_CA]

Just noticed this tonight when I got online to do some homework.




By VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV, Associated Press Writer Tue Sep 11, 3:38 PM ET

MOSCOW - The Russian military has successfully tested what it described as the world's most powerful non-nuclear air-delivered bomb, Russia's state television reported Tuesday.
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It was the latest show of Russia's military muscle amid chilly relations with the United States.

Channel One television said the new weapon, nicknamed the "dad of all bombs" is four times more powerful than the U.S. "mother of all bombs."

"The tests have shown that the new air-delivered ordnance is comparable to a nuclear weapon in its efficiency and capability," said Col.-Gen. Alexander Rukshin, a deputy chief of the Russian military's General Staff, said in televised remarks.

Unlike a nuclear weapon, the bomb doesn't hurt the environment, he added.

The statement reflected the Kremlin's efforts to restore Russia's global clout and rebuild the nation's military might while the ties with Washington have been strained over U.S. criticism of Russia's backsliding on democracy, Moscow's vociferous protests of U.S. missile defense plans, and rifts over global crises.

The U.S. Massive Ordnance Air Blast, nicknamed the Mother Of All Bombs, is a large-yield satellite-guided, air-delivered bomb described as the most powerful non-nuclear weapon in history.

Channel One said that while the Russian bomb contains 7.8 tons of high explosives compared to more than 8 tons of explosives in the U.S. bomb, it's four times more powerful because it uses a new, highly efficient type of explosives that the report didn't identify.

While the U.S. bomb is equivalent to 11 tons of TNT, the Russian one is equivalent to 44 tons of regular explosives. The Russian weapon's blast radius is 990 feet, twice as big as that of the U.S. design, the report said.

Like its U.S. predecessor, first tested in 2003, the Russian bomb is a "thermobaric" weapon that explodes in an intense fireball combined with a devastating blast. It explodes in a terrifying nuclear bomb-like mushroom cloud and wreaks destruction through a massive shock wave created by the air burst and high temperature.

Thermobaric weapons work on the same principle that causes blasts in grain elevators and other dusty places — clouds of fine particles are highly explosive. Such explosions produce shock waves that can be directed and amplified in enclosed spaces such as buildings, caves or tunnels.

Channel One said that the temperature in the epicenter of the Russian bomb's explosion is twice as high as that of the U.S. bomb.

The report showed the bomb dropped by parachute from a Tu-160 strategic bomber and exploding in a massive fireball. It featured the debris of apartment buildings and armored vehicles at a test range, as well as the scorched ground from a massive blast.

It didn't give the bomb's military name or say when it was tested.

Rukshin said the new bomb would allow the military to "protect the nation's security and confront international terrorism in any situation and any region."

"We have got a relatively cheap ordnance with a high strike power," Yuri Balyko, head of the Defense Ministry's institute in charge of weapons design, told Channel One.

Booming oil prices have allowed Russia to steadily increase military spending in recent years, and the Kremlin has taken a more assertive posture in global affairs.

Last month, President Vladimir Putin said he ordered the resumption of regular patrols of strategic bombers, which were suspended after the 1991 Soviet breakup.

(This version CORRECTS spelling of military official's surname to Rukshin, not Rukhsin.)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070911/ap_on_re_eu/russia_bomb_test;_ylt=Av5Bh9u12qDRGwsHfSDaMFtvaA8F

According to a class I'm currently taking (International Security in the Nuclear Age) this fits the definition of a WMD (under the Explosive category) and so does the US MOAB.

Obviously this is part of Putin's and Russia's larger strategy to reclaim the military and political greatness it enjoyed in the past. It's also pretty obvious that this was done to compete with the US, hence calling it "Dad Of All Bombs" and making it bigger. This is similar to the US developing the hydrogen bomb in response to the Soviet development of the atom bomb. Wouldn't surprise me if the US decides to respond by improving the MOAB or just flat out making a bigger better one.

So does this mean a new arms race with a different kind of WMD? I think it's possible. The effects of this bomb are no different than that of a standard bomb, it goes off and that's it. There's no real after effects like radiation or contamination...except maybe some fires depending on what it takes out. It's really just a huge package of very high explosives with a guidance system.

It also doesn't require a lot of engineering or exotic materials (uranium/plutonium, etc) to make. What's to stop countries or non-state actors from quickly making these and using them whenever they see fit? Nuclear weapons and the other kinds of WMDs never got used because people feared the horrible effects they left in their aftermath. These "thermobaric" bombs don't have any of those inherent deterrents but have many of the benefits. They are the apex of conventional warfare if you ask me.

[Iscariot]

america vs russia

round 2

fight

[pulseczar]

I hope they take out a good chunk of the west coast with that thing to even things up for new york city and new orleans

[Iscariot]

no shut up i live on the west coast :(

[big80smullet]

Man that sounds like a pretty amazing bomb. They'll never use it though its just for show.

[VomitStainedCretin]

India's developing a nuclear submarine apparently. Russia's just flexing it's muscles to show it's still powerful, it's not interested in a real conflict methinks.

[lunchforthesky]

This is for show. Russia has all the resources it needs and thus no reason to start a war. Plus now they have the defences to mean no-one will go to war with them.

All over they are just set for Putin to stick his bony middle finger up at the west whether we like what he does or not.

[antihippy]

Well, at least it's enviromentally friendly.

[Meatplow]

It also doesn't require a lot of engineering or exotic materials (uranium/plutonium, etc) to make. What's to stop countries or non-state actors from quickly making these and using them whenever they see fit? Nuclear weapons and the other kinds of WMDs never got used because people feared the horrible effects they left in their aftermath. These "thermobaric" bombs don't have any of those inherent deterrents but have many of the benefits. They are the apex of conventional warfare if you ask me.

This is a very interesting point you've made IMO. I don't fear governments having this kind of technology but terrorist and doomsday groups getting possession of knowledge how to build these is frightening.

I have to know, how exactly is it justified in "the interests of national security" for a country to possess a WMD? It's seems more in the interest of brutal offense if you ask me, i thought anything the interest of national security would be primarily defensive measures.

[antihippy]

So does this mean a new arms race with a different kind of WMD? I think it's possible. The effects of this bomb are no different than that of a standard bomb, it goes off and that's it. There's no real after effects like radiation or contamination...except maybe some fires depending on what it takes out. It's really just a huge package of very high explosives with a guidance system.

It also doesn't require a lot of engineering or exotic materials (uranium/plutonium, etc) to make. What's to stop countries or non-state actors from quickly making these and using them whenever they see fit? Nuclear weapons and the other kinds of WMDs never got used because people feared the horrible effects they left in their aftermath. These "thermobaric" bombs don't have any of those inherent deterrents but have many of the benefits. They are the apex of conventional warfare if you ask me.

i would think that countries with weapons of mass destruction would not dare use those weapons because it might cause those countries to fire back with their own WOMDs, but yeah, that'll be one less reason to not use WOMDs.

[Meatplow]

i would think that countries with weapons of mass destruction would not dare use those weapons because it might cause those countries to fire back with their own WOMDs, but yeah, that'll be one less reason to not use WOMDs.

I have heard the idea that once one starts rolling it'll start a chain reaction, henceforth the destruction of the world.

[antihippy]

yeah, i heard of that theory. It's pretty likely that it would happen that way too.

[dei]

Well, at least it's enviromentally friendly.

Haha.

[big80smullet]

Its pretty disconcerting that russia unveil the biggest bomb ever made in the same week the entire cabinet resigns. Doesnt make me feel safe at all.

[PerpetualBurn]

the bomb doesn't hurt the environment

Yes it does.

[Independent_CA]

This is a very interesting point you've made IMO. I don't fear governments having this kind of technology but terrorist and doomsday groups getting possession of knowledge how to build these is frightening.

I have to know, how exactly is it justified in "the interests of national security" for a country to possess a WMD? It's seems more in the interest of brutal offense if you ask me, i thought anything the interest of national security would be primarily defensive measures.

Well there's the argument that "the best defense is a good offense" which is along the same lines as a deterrent policy. Still, if I was a top level commander, I'd use these things at least to a certain extent and not feel bad about it. One of these could do significant damage to or completely destroy a typical military installation. Like I said, I'm more concerned about "rogue states" and terrorists, etc using these things on the US and other Western countries than I am Russia doing it. Although, I wouldn't put it past Russia to use this on Chechnya or if it decided to make a move on any of it's former republics. A few of these "DOABs" would probably be more than enough to cripple the military forces of a country like Georgia or Latvia.


i would think that countries with weapons of mass destruction would not dare use those weapons because it might cause those countries to fire back with their own WOMDs, but yeah, that'll be one less reason to not use WOMDs.
Yeah but there's no long term effects from this other than a hole in the ground and whatever damage it does on detonation. Afterwards you can walk right through ground zero and occupy it or move on to your next objective without any ill effect. Plus you can just re-build right over the debris. Other WMDs actually have the potential to destroy the world as we know it through environmental damage and other factors. These don't, they mainly damage property and people.

[DrumIntoTheNight]

I thought the UN (or whoever) were on the verge of banning thermobaric weapons? I swear I heard that somewhere.

This is an interesting development indeed.

Edit: Nevermind.

[Reaganista]

this doesnt matter at all

[Meatplow]

Well there's the argument that "the best defense is a good offense" which is along the same lines as a deterrent policy. Still, if I was a top level commander, I'd use these things at least to a certain extent and not feel bad about it. One of these could do significant damage to or completely destroy a typical military installation.

I see what you mean. Showing these weapons off as a deterrent to other nations still seems like some kind of pathetic grand scale bullying game though, nya nya nah i have a bigger weapon then yooooou!!!!!!

[Oriah]

I see what you mean. Showing these weapons off as a deterrent to other nations still seems like some kind of pathetic grand scale bullying game though, nya nya nah i have a bigger weapon then yooooou!!!!!!

I agree, but just in case...I'm moving to Australia.

need a roommate MeatPlow? :)

[ringworm]

i saw this yesterday, only they were calling it a vaccum bomb, i saw some video too, pretty impressive

i think the russians are just flexing a little muscle and trying to raise national pride & reflect a strong country, which will lead to an economy boost better trade status and gain some importance in the region

I hope they take out a good chunk of the west coast with that thing to even things up for new york city and new orleans
no, NY first, then the west coast

new orleans, why bother?

[Independent_CA]

I see what you mean. Showing these weapons off as a deterrent to other nations still seems like some kind of pathetic grand scale bullying game though, nya nya nah i have a bigger weapon then yooooou!!!!!!

Thats basically what we did during the Cold War.

[Smokey D]

We cannot allow a mine shaft gap!

[shaqadelic]

Its pretty disconcerting that russia unveil the biggest bomb ever made in the same week the entire cabinet resigns. Doesnt make me feel safe at all.

Why so afraid? Government are built to continue functioning eventhough department heads step down. And it wasn't like the resignation was something unexpected.

[StrangeVision]

Yay!! New Cold War!!!

[lfantwister]

I knew i was taking russian for a reason..

as a side note, anyone want to help me with my homework?

[CameoRole]

We cannot allow a mine shaft gap!

It's all the flouride in our drinking water, man. Commie mind control!

[totah]

So the cold war didn't really end then did it? They just collapsed the communist government and a new one replaced it. I guess that makes sense, since all a government's power is centered on its infrastructure, resources and ability to create wealth, and those three conditions haven't changed much in Russia.

[totah]

i saw this yesterday, only they were calling it a vaccum bomb, i saw some video too, pretty impressive

Oh, vacuum bombs aren't all that new, that's bunker-buster technology. Basically one chemical gets spread out in fine particle form over a large area and another reactive chemical then ignites it, so what you get is a million million tiny particles all blowing up, burning up the air around them and creating a vacuum, which if inside an enclosed space serves to collapse the enclosures in on themselves. It would be interesting to see what that would actually look like, a building crumpling in on itself.

[Smokey D]

I dunno, that sounds pretty difficult to the thing they have on the BBC website.

[ringworm]

maybe what i saw was inncorrect?

it was a piece about russia testing a new weapon, raising eyebrows in the US, but they did call it a vacuum bomb and it was very powerful, but without the radiation

but that doesnt really matter, they can test all they want and i doubt/hope we dont view this as hostile

[griftadan]

it's not like they did anything particularly innovative, they just put better explosives in a daisy cutter. we don't really have a need for anything bigger than a MOAB so i doubt we will do anything in response.

[ashman]

it's not like they did anything particularly innovative, they just put better explosives in a daisy cutter. we don't really have a need for anything bigger than a MOAB so i doubt we will do anything in response.

It's pretty different to anything the Americans have done so far.

From what I can make out, the FOAB (the russian one) creates a fine powder mist and and lights it (like if you put a bit of flour on one hand, slap your hands together then light the mist, you'll get an explosion don't try this, you'll probably end up with some sort of burn), while the MOAB (the american one) is pretty much a bog standard bomb.

[DrumIntoTheNight]

They both detonate using the same concept, as they're both Thermobaric.

The Russians have just managed to find some staggeringly effective fuel, that's all.

[ashman]

They both detonate using the same concept, as they're both Thermobaric.

The Russians have just managed to find some staggeringly effective fuel, that's all.

After some quick googling/wikipedia'ing, the MOAB only uses powdered aluminium in the detonation, while the FOAB is all Thermobaric, could be wrong though. Can't be arsed to research it fully :p

[spitfirejunky]

You're right.

The concept behind thermobaric weapons has been around for a while, it's just not been applied since it doesn't serve any practical, strategic purposes except to destroy the **** out of everything.

[griftadan]

It's pretty different to anything the Americans have done so far.

From what I can make out, the FOAB (the russian one) creates a fine powder mist and and lights it (like if you put a bit of flour on one hand, slap your hands together then light the mist, you'll get an explosion don't try this, you'll probably end up with some sort of burn), while the MOAB (the american one) is pretty much a bog standard bomb.

oh i was under the impression that the daisy cutter was another FAE (fuel-air explosive). the US has a large arsenal of those as well, just not with the same scope as the FOAB.

[RIP Ian Curtis]

So the cold war didn't really end then did it? They just collapsed the communist government and a new one replaced it. I guess that makes sense, since all a government's power is centered on its infrastructure, resources and ability to create wealth, and those three conditions haven't changed much in Russia.

Russians just appear to be utterly incapable of existing under any kind of non-totalitarian rule. Tsars to Lenin to Stalin to the ex-head of KGB, who seems to be a fascist. Democracy ain't for everyone it seems.

As for all the terrorist worries, ask yourself, why bother? You can knock over two of the tallest buildings in the world with hijacked planes, a dumb-fuc'k like McVeigh can knock over a multi-story building with anfo (the explosive used in almost every terrorist attack ever, anywhere). Why go to all the effort of getting one of these when you can cause comprable destruction with other methods.

[Iscariot]

Russians just appear to be utterly incapable of existing under any kind of non-totalitarian rule. Tsars to Lenin to Stalin to the ex-head of KGB, who seems to be a fascist. Democracy ain't for everyone it seems.

As for all the terrorist worries, ask yourself, why bother? You can knock over two of the tallest buildings in the world with hijacked planes, a dumb-fuc'k like McVeigh can knock over a multi-story building with anfo (the explosive used in almost every terrorist attack ever, anywhere). Why go to all the effort of getting one of these when you can cause comprable destruction with other methods.

because anfo doesn't cause total obliteration of everything within a 900-foot radius

[RIP Ian Curtis]

It does enough damage, for being remarkably easy. There's no point bothering with complicated weapons systems that

1. Are difficult and expensive to manufacture/aquire
2. Require expertise to set up and set off
3. Are the equivalent of "putting all your eggs in one basket"

When you can throw diesel, detonators and fertiliser into a confined space and destroy almost anything you want to.

These weapons don't have that awesome (in the old sense of the word) "fear-factor" that "proper" WMD have, I can't see them being any threat really.

[DrumIntoTheNight]

After some quick googling/wikipedia'ing, the MOAB only uses powdered aluminium in the detonation

That's the point; it sprays a mist of fine particles (in this case, Aluminium) before igniting them. That's the whole principle of a Thermobaric weapon.

Obviously the Russians just found a more potent Pyrophoric metal.

[totah]

Magnesium!

[VomitStainedCretin]

Francium!

[Smokey D]

Wait, so this isn't even nuclear?

That makes it even less important.

[StreetlightRock]

Francium!

My old Physics teacher in High School was called Mr. Francis. You can imagine the jabs and jokes we had with that.

[spitfirejunky]

That's the point; it sprays a mist of fine particles (in this case, Aluminium) before igniting them. That's the whole principle of a Thermobaric weapon.

Obviously the Russians just found a more potent Pyrophoric metal.

The MOAB is not thermobaric.

[Reaganista]

guys it doesn't matter at all

[DrumIntoTheNight]

The MOAB is not thermobaric.

Whoops, my bad.

The MOAB uses RDX, TNT and Aluminium. Standard explosive called H6. Apparently.

[peeted]

lol"Unlike a nuclear weapon, the bomb doesn't hurt the environment, he added"

[ashman]

lol"Unlike a nuclear weapon, the bomb doesn't hurt the environment, he added"

At least the area that this would be used on wouldn''t be devoid of most forms of life for the next 50-60 years

[Independent_CA]

Wait, so this isn't even nuclear?

That makes it even less important.

I wouldn't go quite that far. It does have many of the same effects that a battlefield nuclear weapon would have with none of the side effects. Strategically and militarily, these kinds of weapons are a big deal.

Plus imagine the damage they'd do to a major city if some nation or group decided to use one.


guys it doesn't matter at all
Does anything ever matter to you??

[Reaganista]

Does anything ever matter to you??
yes

[ringworm]

avril lavigne, new found glory, lindsay lohan, what matters most to ^

:)

[Reaganista]

lindsay matters to everybody