Disconnect

[StreetlightRock]

Today I was an accidental protester. So APEC is going on here in Sydney so every kid and his scarf are getting out to protest about everything and anything. Which is fine. So today i'm at Uni and there all these cops everywhere so i'm thinking oh good a protest. Turns out it was this one that was mainly against a in-the-making nuclear studies center at my uni - which is something i wouldn't protest about anyway.

So, me and some mates are hanging around outside the library sorta watching these guys on their soap boxes complain about Howard, Bush, Aboriginal Treatment, Iraq, Nuclear Protesting, etc. and suddenly it starts raining. In 10 seconds the protest organizers come right over to where we are and set up shop, banners, speakers, hand held drums and everything. So to anyone looking on, me and my mates were about as hardcore protest people as it really got.

When it sorta struck me. I'm in the middle of this mini-protest gathering thing. And i just don't care. Not one bit. I mean - I AM against the conduct of the Iraq war, I AM against John Howard's Workplace reform, I'm against some of the treatment of Aboriginals in the Northern Territory and i AM concerned about singing Nuclear deals with the Russians. But here, right there, in the midst of these protesters, where i should feel my most exhilarated, i was more interested in the hot chick with the British accent (Chicks with Accents ++) whom i had just met than any of those issues.

I was just sick of the rhetoric, the whole contrived nature of the thing (the protesters were chucking in 'here here' and 'shame shame' at appropriate moments during the talks). And if it happened to me, someone who, at the very least, held some views, the level of disconnect with people who quite honestly didn't give a s'hit would be just so far and away from anything these protesters were hoping to achieve. Maybe i'm just a bad person - but i don't think so. These just this massive gap now between people knowing, people caring and people actually doing stuff.

And the most distressing part - i don't know what to do about it. I don't see value in these protests, i don't feel like my vote really amounts to anything, that my caring and sining the random petitions that pop up here and there will do anything. I mean, do any of you feel anything like that? Or thought about this and how just to reconnect people with the issues? People talk about education and i don't think thats enough. I know whats going on - the media is more powerful than people think - newspapers, tv, billboards, posters, everywhere you go you're being informed, but its just not enough. Maybe its the RIGHT sort of education thats needed. I just don't know what it is.

[StreetlightRock]

oh and sorry for the long post.

[ringworm]

I was just sick of the rhetoric, the whole contrived nature of the thing
arent we all
I don't see value in these protests, i don't feel like my vote really amounts to anything, that my caring and sining the random petitions that pop up here and there will do anything.
this is what most politicians want, apathy, so they can continue the business that politics have become


it sucks, and it does seem useless to try

the only thing I can suggest is writing letters to your representatives, form groups that write letters

we overturned a huge land deal that some local officials had hoped would go unoticed in my area by writing, writing, writing, it is hardly comparable to affecting a national event, but that what it takes. Numbers against numbers

[BridgeToSolace]

Governments are designed not to enact changes until large groups of people are either dying or losing money.

Especially the second one, oddly enough.

Probably because people don't care about anything unless it involves the death of a loved one or losing money. Or gay people are having sex. Icky!

[Danish]

And the most distressing part - i don't know what to do about it. I don't see value in these protests, i don't feel like my vote really amounts to anything, that my caring and sining the random petitions that pop up here and there will do anything. I mean, do any of you feel anything like that? Or thought about this and how just to reconnect people with the issues? People talk about education and i don't think thats enough. I know whats going on - the media is more powerful than people think - newspapers, tv, billboards, posters, everywhere you go you're being informed, but its just not enough. Maybe its the RIGHT sort of education thats needed. I just don't know what it is.

Protesting is really about two things: (1) getting a message out; and (2) disruption designed to put pressure on the centres of power. In the context of APEC, the only way to do this at this point are protests like you described. But look at the way people "protest" at work: they go on strike, as a collective.

Why are people willing to go on strike, for instance, but perhaps not protest APEC? Because people realize that issues in their workplace affect their lives. People don't see the ways in which all of these issues are connected.

Once people understand these connections, they care more.

Also, the balance of power is far-and-away in favour of the people we're protesting against.

[YDload]

i went to that huge January 27th protest on the national mall in Washington DC, but i was just there to observe and write a paper on it for class. but just being there is part of the protest, so i too was sort of an involuntary protester.

did i agree with the basic idea of the protest (no war)?? sure, but i dont have enough fervor to want to march or anything. still it was quite an event, and everyone should go to a protest just to see what it's like (and to see all the radical causes that come out of the woodwork and take left-wing ideas to the extreme)

[Danish]

I think people in general have a tendency to look at each protest as an isolated event, which it isn't.

[Der Übermensch]

i went to that huge January 27th protest on the national mall in Washington DC, but i was just there to observe and write a paper on it for class. but just being there is part of the protest, so i too was sort of an involuntary protester.


I went to see the end of that. Didn't participate. It just happened to be in between us and the movie theater we were headed too.
It's strange, but living in DC has actually made me more disenchanted with such things rather than more supportive...

[Mr. Ron]

The last protest I went to wasn't that great. The police threw bottles at us.

[YDload]

maybe if you lived in DC during the Iraq War buildup, when there seemed to be protests every week. but they're not THAT common now and i still think it was a special event.

[Mr. Ron]

it must be exillerating to be in a massive protest.

[Smokey D]

The largest protest I've ever seen was about 500 people. We're pretty apathetic.

[Akira]

The largest protest I've ever seen was about... no one.

Suburbia FTL.

[Danish]

it must be exillerating to be in a massive protest.

It is. I was at the Canadian Federation of Students protest in Toronto in February, where a few thousand of us marched from the University of Toronto to Queen's Park, blocking Bay Street. I also participated in a major labour protest in Ottawa (at Parliament) where we put up a "Job Loss Cemetery" with tombstones for all of the manufacturing jobs lost in the past few years (300 000 since 2002 and the gov't does nothing). I started chanting "anti-scab!" really loud when Stephane Dion was speaking and managed to get everyone to chant with me; Dion got booed off stage.

You guys think protest is worthless and ineffectual, and it's not. Protest is key to building a better society.

Edit: Here are some video links of some of this:

http://www.caw.ca/news/videonews/recent/fight_rally.wvx
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/national/070530/n053067A.html

[Der Übermensch]

I don't think its worthless and ineffectual per sé, but I do think that the vast majority are doing it for the wrong reasons.

[Danish]

I don't think its worthless and ineffectual per sé, but I do think that the vast majority are doing it for the wrong reasons.

What do you define as "the wrong reasons"?

[dei]

I'd like to attend a protest sometime, but the only ones I ever hear about here have to do with illegal immigrants and I'm not sure where I stand on that issue.

[lfantwister]

Smaller protests have basically lost all legitimacy though because of the loud crazy hippies that run them. People cant connect with loonies regardless of their stand on the issue

[Danish]

Smaller protests have basically lost all legitimacy though because of the loud crazy hippies that run them. People cant connect with loonies regardless of their stand on the issue

That's a ridiculous generalization, especially coming from a non-activist.

Which movement are you talking about? Because you sure aren't talking about the labour movement, in Canada or the US.

Define "loonie".

[lfantwister]

That's a ridiculous generalization, especially coming from a non-activist.

Which movement are you talking about? Because you sure aren't talking about the labour movement, in Canada or the US. No not the labor movement at all. That's nicely organised and has clear cut goals. I'm talking more about random and bizarre protests that are really ineffective. Like people marching about to stop the war--mind you, not massive-scale protests--but little local ones. No governor can stop the war in Iraq. And the ones to legalize pot where everyone sits around and sings kumbaya.

Define "loonie". I guess someone that is so radical people cant connect with them, even if they agree with their position on the issue.

[YDload]

the labor movement got smart by aligning with the mob. i realize that some countries are still about a century behind the US in terms of labor movements, but there's not much of a widespread problem here anymore

[Danish]

No not the labor movement at all. That's nicely organised and has clear cut goals. I'm talking more about random and bizarre protests that are really ineffective. Like people marching about to stop the war--mind you, not massive-scale protests--but little local ones. No governor can stop the war in Iraq. And the ones to legalize pot where everyone sits around and sings kumbaya.

But you have to understand that "the war" isn't the only issue that sort of protest (local) is about. Like I said before, protest is about putting pressure on power and raising awareness. Local protest, though explicitly directed toward a local or state gov't, is designed to give voice to the community (in and of itself a political statement) and to put pressure Congresspersons and Senators. It's also designed to raise solidarity and "politicize" citizens (in other words, get them politically active). Political protest is the lifeblood of any democratic society, big or small.

lol Pro-pot protestors have their own "culture", so to speak.

I guess someone that is so radical people cant connect with them, even if they agree with their position on the issue.

The idea is to get apathetic people to see how different issues manifest in their own lives, and thus to start to see the world in a different way. I like to think of it as provoking the Sociological Imagination in people (the same approach I take to teaching). Our society works hard to depoliticize and atomize people, which makes the job of the organizer and the educator very challenging indeed. As you point out, it's difficult to get people to see the world differently.

[RIP Ian Curtis]

If you want a protest to do anything, you need either a) real terror or b) implied terror. Striking doesn't work because of organisation or unity or any of that bullshi't. It works because it causes massive, massive pain to a company and (depending on the industry) the economy as a whole and even the government. If your protest doesn't hurt anyone, why should they listen to you?

[Der Übermensch]

What do you define as "the wrong reasons"?

Kid - teens-early 20's - who are doing it for the sake of being rebellious rather than an actual deep commital to the cause.

[Reaganista]

why is that bad

[Der Übermensch]

I didn't say it was bad.
I said I was disenchanted with it as a meaningful tool for political change. They aren't people who are protesting something, but rather people who just want to protest, so chose a convenient issue.

[YDload]

lol Pro-pot protestors have their own "culture", so to speak.

as opposed to Pol Pot protesters, who dont exist because they've all been shot!

[Danish]

the labor movement got smart by aligning with the mob. i realize that some countries are still about a century behind the US in terms of labor movements, but there's not much of a widespread problem here anymore

You have no idea what you're talking about. The US labour movement is about a century behind its counterparts in the rest of the developed world. And none of the major unions in the US have mob ties anymore.

If you want a protest to do anything, you need either a) real terror or b) implied terror. Striking doesn't work because of organisation or unity or any of that bullshi't. It works because it causes massive, massive pain to a company and (depending on the industry) the economy as a whole and even the government. If your protest doesn't hurt anyone, why should they listen to you?

No strike or other collective action is possible without solidarity. Ask any union buster and they'll tell you that the key to breaking strikes is "divide and conquer": destroy solidarity and good will between workers. Of course the reason the strike works is because it puts major pressure on the employer by disrupting business.

But that's the point of any collective action: to disrupt (as you point out) and to inform. In a democratic society, you hope you don't have to disrupt anything to make positive change, but that ideal is out of touch with reality.

I didn't say it was bad.
I said I was disenchanted with it as a meaningful tool for political change. They aren't people who are protesting something, but rather people who just want to protest, so chose a convenient issue.

I beg the differ. I don't know how much organizing and mobilization work you've been involved with, but it's exceedingly difficult to get people to participate, especially over the long-term and especially in our society. Political action doesn't just happen. It takes a lot of work.

Some people may come out to a "convenient" protest because they've angry or disillusioned, but what is so wrong with that? To speak for myself, I'll stomp my boots over anything, be it war, workers' rights, or any other injustice. You've got to be patient with people, though. We're up against some pretty powerful adversaries.

[Reaganista]

I didn't say it was bad.
I said I was disenchanted with it as a meaningful tool for political change. They aren't people who are protesting something, but rather people who just want to protest, so chose a convenient issue.
and...

[YDload]

You have no idea what you're talking about. The US labour movement is about a century behind its counterparts in the rest of the developed world. And none of the major unions in the US have mob ties anymore.

well i figured if i made a contentious statement about something i really know nothing about, i would get a more accurate opinion. thanks

[Danish]

well i figured if i made a contentious statement about something i really know nothing about, i would get a more accurate opinion. thanks

lol You could have just asked, you know. I'm always happy to talk about labour!

[bradc1988]

This wasn't at Usyd was it?

[Der Übermensch]

I beg the differ. I don't know how much organizing and mobilization work you've been involved with, but it's exceedingly difficult to get people to participate, especially over the long-term and especially in our society. Political action doesn't just happen. It takes a lot of work.


You obviously haven't met the average member of the College Democrats...
I had the misfortune of dating one for a time...

But more seriously, thats exactly my point. Most people here who walk down to the Mall to participate in what ever protest is going on at the time are just doing it for kicks, they don't care about the long term.
People who are in it for the long term have my undying respect for their commital to their ideals, but they make up a small minority of those who are in any given protest.

[dei]

What's the best way to find out about protests in my area? I am new to the whole politics scene, LoL.

[Der Übermensch]

Depends where you live I guess... being in DC they just kind of are a fact of life...

[dei]

I live in Los Angeles.

[spitfirejunky]

They always have these pro-Palestine and pro-Israel groups demonstrating against each other by Bryant Park. Figured I'd go there one day and put up a sign that says, "Restore the British Mandate."

[StreetlightRock]

This wasn't at Usyd was it?

Yep, thats where it was at - you go there? Atm, id rather protest that they hurry the hell up and fix up the damn construction around campus. Its looking good though with some of the stone laid down and all.

If you want a protest to do anything, you need either a) real terror or b) implied terror. Striking doesn't work because of organisation or unity or any of that bullshi't. It works because it causes massive, massive pain to a company and (depending on the industry) the economy as a whole and even the government. If your protest doesn't hurt anyone, why should they listen to you?

The whole idea behind protest is the threat of violence. Real or imagined, thats whats makes the state look up and take notice. In that sense, ALL protest involves a degree of violence, actuated or not.

[bradc1988]

Yeah I'm at Sydney. I avoid all those people who hand out those flyers and crap around campus. It was good when I used to have a pony tail, they wouldn't go near me.

[StreetlightRock]

Really? I thought with a ponytail they'd think you're some crazy hippy commy kid who'd fight for 'the cause'. EVERYTIME i bring my stakeboard to uni (once in a blue moon - I got lectures in the Bosch Theatre and i gotta get there from Redfern), I invariably get approached.

[bradc1988]

Well it was pony tail, earphones, side burns and a Symphony X shirt. An angry little figure.

Also being in engineering I have no idea where/what Bosch is, I know like 3 buildings on that side of campus.

[StreetlightRock]

Oh you're one of those. =P

Its like the further you can possibly get from the station.

[bradc1988]

At least we don't have to put up with protesters outside our library, we have a bbq outside ours.

But, all the purdy ladies are on your side :/

[StreetlightRock]

this is true.

[lfantwister]

I live in Los Angeles

ads for major protests and flyers are posted on like freeway entrances. Check online for more minor ones...theyre there. Or you could just go to a government building because theres bound to be someone bemoaning something always

[dei]

Where would I check online?

[ringworm]

protesting doesn really accomplish anything tbo (at least here in the states)
others in other countries have been effective somewhat, but do you really think anyone is paying you any attention here, besides your fellow protesters?

you need to gather numbers and write your local & state representatives for more effective means of making changes

EDIT: protesting doesnt give lawmakers anything tangible to work with like a huge stack of letters written and signed by people

[RIP Ian Curtis]

Hell, 60% of Australians opposed the war on Iraq, look where that got us. Ain't no such thing as people power no more.

[Der Übermensch]

Hell, 60% of Australians opposed the war on Iraq, look where that got us. Ain't no such thing as people power no more.

100% of Australia could have opposed it, and it still wouldn't have stopped the war...

[ringworm]

just watch the "Friends of God" HBO docu to see how effective their means of lobbying are to see how idiotic simple protesting is

i cant remember what preacher it was that said it would only take a few minutes and a few calls to completely overwhelm the phone lines in Washington with huge numbers of callers voicing opinions

thats how you steer things, signs and people chanting on street corners does nothing

[RIP Ian Curtis]

True, but you think an overwhelming majority of us could of at least stopped our govt. sending our troops.

[ringworm]

no, because at that time, most people didnt even question it, if we had the same mentality & info now, and got to reverse time, maybe, but i still doubt it

i think Iraq was the goal the whole time