page 16, modern drummer october 2007

[stylers_new_account]

another couple of reasons to flame joey jordison, ill type out the article.


slipknot's Joey Jordison on developing hand and foot speed

i bought a slipknot's 9.0 live, and i want to say that you're the best blast beat drummer ever. your hand speed on "three nil" totally blew me away. how did you develop such speed and control? also, the double bass beat leading up to the chorus of "three nil" is the fastest ive ever heard a drummer go. how much of that speed comes from practice and how much comes from your choice of pedal and the way that pedal is adjusted?

don voltz


your kind words are much appreciated. to answer your question, the "blast" is a very strategic and delicate beat. to achieve the fastest speeds, you really have to concentrate on single-stroke rolls, and, most importantly on wrist technique. i cant stress that enough. you can really harm your wrists and tendons if you dont have the right wrist technique. to prevent frustration during practicing, practice while watching TV. (thats what i do.) start slow, and be sure to get your wrists properly warmed up before attempting major speed.





i left out the last two paragraphs. hope everyone enjoys the JJ bashfest that will obviously come of me posting this.

[spirit]

Either you're being sarcastic, which can be lost on people over the internet, or you're needlessly starting a thread for the sole purpose of ridiculing a fellow drummer.

Well done, you're a fool.

[Denny]

I dont like JJ,
but it's good advice.

[Retarded Chipple]

Haha...it just keeps getting worse!

[Sponer]

Um... in what you posted there, there's nothing Joey said that's stupid or flame-worthy (well, maybe the part where he talked about a blast beat being a strategic and delicate beat). If anything, I'd be bashing the player who made the initial comment.

[the_pure_drummer]

Put in the other paragraph's aswell!!!

[LoneStarDrummer]

other than the fact that don voltz mustn't listen to very many drummers and the fact that he's infatuated with JJ, i don't really see anything wrong with that article.

[stylers_new_account]

almost all of what he said was flame-worthy.

the only worth-while advice in the article from him is to stress on your technique, the bit about watching tv while you practice rudiments is just stupid. not to mention the "strategic and delicate" part about blast-beats.

[stylers_new_account]

alright, give me a sec to type out the rest of the article. im doing it all by hand so it might be a minute.

[stylers_new_account]

There are two ways of incorporating the kick drum into blast beats: one-footed or two-footed. i use both, if im playing 16th notes i always use one foot, because its usually steadier. for 32nd notes between the snare and hi-hat ill use two feet. its a little trickier to maintain steadiness, as well as to avoid a bouncy sound that i call "the teeter-totter effect." with practice, you should be able to find that balance and make it just as even.

as for the kick drum speed in "three nil", that comes from years of playing. it has nothing to do with the pedal, although the pearl eliminators i use are killer! theres also a misconception about spring tension. alot of drummers tend to think looser is better, but it isnt. when the spring is loose you wont get the rebound coming off the head that you need to achieve those speeds.

i hope this helps. thanks again.

forgive any typos, i did it all without looking up at the screen to get it done quicker, i hope its readable.


anyone have a better name for "the teeter-totter effect" that he speaks of? i cant think of any sound my bass drum has ever made to match that name.

[Sponer]

your kind words are much appreciated.

What, was he supposed to say, "No, you're wrong. There are much better drummers out there. Stop listening to my drumming and ignore any advice I try to give." That's not flame-worthy.


to answer your question, the "blast" is a very strategic and delicate beat.

Ok, this is a bit laughable. I love blast beats and play them with my band, but yea... they're effing easy.


to achieve the fastest speeds, you really have to concentrate on single-stroke rolls...

Hm, a blast essentially is a single stroke roll. You concider this "flame-worthy" too?


...most importantly on wrist technique. i cant stress that enough. you can really harm your wrists and tendons if you dont have the right wrist technique.

You already mentioned this wasn't bad advice, so yea. Not flame-worthy.


to prevent frustration during practicing, practice while watching TV. (thats what i do.) start slow, and be sure to get your wrists properly warmed up before attempting major speed.

I'm not sure what he means by "preventing frustration during practice," but everything else here is good advice.


I actually picked up the issue since I saw it was right next to me. It's not worth you typing out the rest of the article... there's nothing wrong with what he said. You just seem to think that because it came from him, it must be bad advice. I'm not a JJ fan btw, I actually don't like the band at all. But There's nothing wrong with what he said.

[the_pure_drummer]

hmmmmm..........

[stylers_new_account]

to anyone who isnt subscribed to modern drummer, id recomend picking up this 07 october issue, its pretty much dedicated to prog music, and theres an amazing driver view of portnoys kit, hes really got quite an interesting right-side of his kit.

[Sponer]

to anyone who isnt subscribed to modern drummer, id recomend picking up this 07 october issue, its pretty much dedicated to prog music, and theres an amazing driver view of portnoys kit, hes really got quite an interesting right-side of his kit.

Best part by far is their list of "all time prog classics." Very good selections there.

[spirit]

to answer your question, the "blast" is a very strategic and delicate beat.
OK, I wouldn't use 'strategic' or 'delicate' to describe a blast beat, but all that proves is that Joey's strength isn't his literary prowess.

to achieve the fastest speeds, you really have to concentrate on single-stroke rolls, and, most importantly on wrist technique. i cant stress that enough.

To the best of my understanding, blast beats pretty much consist of single stroke rolls, so one point for Joey. He also stresses the importance of good wrist technique for achieving speed. The bastard! No, wait, that's good advice. One point for Joey.

you can really harm your wrists and tendons if you dont have the right wrist technique.

I fail to see the problem with this statement.

to prevent frustration during practicing, practice while watching TV. (thats what i do.)

This isn't all that bad advice. Practising single stroke rolls for endurance purposes can be tedious, and practising in front of the TV can help give your mind something to do other than listen to single stroke roll on a pad for ages on end.

start slow, and be sure to get your wrists properly warmed up before attempting major speed.

Start slow - I'm fine with that. Warm up - I'm fine with that too.


Tell me, what did he say to incur your wrath?

EDIT: I kinda got sniped by Sponer, but it's still valid.

[stylers_new_account]

haha i didnt say disect the entire thing word by word.

im not by any means a JJ flamer, the article was for the most part stupid regardless of whoever said it. the fact that it was JJ was just another reason to flame him for being sub-par to most professional drummers.


the sarcasm and random guesses from your post kind of make me
sad sponer :'(

[stylers_new_account]

practicing infront of a tv is so obviously not proper practice. if your not able to dedicate the time to practicing your single stroke rolls with a metronome, and properly, dont practice them at all.

if your not gonna pratice with a metronome, atleast practice to a CD, where the time will be constant and even.

Tell me, what did he say to incur your wrath?

the same thing hes done to incur the wrath of every other person whos dissed him. give sub-par advice and ideals,plus give influence to the young drummers in need of better idols.

[stylers_new_account]

Best part by far is their list of "all time prog classics." Very good selections there.

agreed, the roundtable discussion was insightful.


anyone else still giggle when they see that "wood not... for slipknot" ad?

[Sponer]

The idea of practicing infront of a TV isn't to achieve perfect timing. It's more to get the hand movement down. Increasing speed is a matter of muscle memory. Just because you're not practicing to a metranome, you're still practicing the motion and accomplishing something.

And practicing infront of a TV doesn't mean you lack dedication. It could just as easily mean you just have extra free time that you'd like to also devote partially to drumming.


"the same thing hes done to incur the wrath of every other person whos dissed him. give sub-par advice and ideals,plus influence to the young drummers who need better idols."

...and that's his fault??

[Panopticon]

people don't flame joey for being a crappy drummer...by no means is he sub-par IMO...they flame him for the fanboys that say he's the best...which i also don't agree with.

[stylers_new_account]

as free time thats fine to dick around and do whatever you want, but he shouldnt be stating that practice in itself should be done infront of the tube.


...and that's his fault??

....um...yes. it is. i cant see it being anyone elses fault that he gives, to qoute myself, "sub-par advice and ideals,plus influence to the young drummers who need better idols."

[spirit]

practicing infront of a tv is so obviously not proper practice. if your not able to dedicate the time to practicing your single stroke rolls with a metronome, and properly, dont practice them at all.

if your not gonna pratice with a metronome, atleast practice to a CD, where the time will be constant and even.

I practise hand technique in front of the tv. I don't always watch it, and there's always a metronome on. If need be, I can tune it out. I find it useful for background noise. It can also make it an interesting challenge to focus on the click with a show on.

Tell me, what did he say to incur your wrath?

the same thing hes done to incur the wrath of every other person whos dissed him. give sub-par advice and ideals,plus give influence to the young drummers in need of better idols.

The advice, in essence, was sound - practise your technique.

Also, a lot of people get into drumming because of Joey, but then move on to other, as you would have it, 'better' drummers. You'd prefer there were fewer drummers?

[stylers_new_account]

in essence, almost everyones advice is the same, its the detail of what hes said that demeans(sp?) him



did i ever even suggest that i wanted fewer drummers?


to anyone whos read the issue's drum forums section, im abit dissapointed MX didnt get mentioned when drum forums were listed.

[Sponer]

as free time thats fine to dick around and do whatever you want, but he shouldnt be stating that practice in itself should be done infront of the tube.

He didn't say it should replace actual practice though. He just mentioned it as another option. That how I understood it, anyway.


....um...yes. it is. i cant see it being anyone elses fault that he gives, to qoute myself, "sub-par advice and ideals,plus influence to the young drummers who need better idols."

I meant that more towards the fact the he is liked and influences a lot of drummers. It's not his fault that many drummers like his playing and want his advice.

[spirit]

did i ever even suggest that i wanted fewer drummers?

I didn't say you suggested it. I asked if you'd prefer fewer drummers to having some drummers who like JJ, but will probably move on to discover other drummers.

[stylers_new_account]

He didn't say it should replace actual practice though. He just mentioned it as another option. That how I understood it, anyway.
he mentioned it in a way that if you dont want to be frustrated during practice, watch tv!

I meant that more towards the fact the he is liked and influences a lot of drummers. It's not his fault that many drummers like his playing and want his advice.

obviously. but it is his fault if hes giving faulty advice. and before anyone jumps down my throat. im not saying all his advice is crap, as i said before, in essence almost everyones advice will be the same, its the details that demean(sp?) him.


no i wouldnt like fewer drummers, what kind of question was that? the issue still stands that his advice is faulty compared to most pro drummers.

[Panopticon]

none of the advice given was faulty:confused:

The question to Joey was "how did you develop such speed and control?"

and part of his answer was this "to prevent frustration during practicing, practice while watching TV. (thats what i do.)"

Therefore, there was no faulty advice given. He was asked what he does, and he told him what he does. End of story.

Besides...at least SOME good has gotta come out of practicing in front the TV...its not like joey doesn't have clean singles.

[spirit]

To be honest, my main issue is that you started a thread for the sole purpose of bashing JJ over nothing more than a response to a fan. I wouldn't have minded so much if you'd done it in a different way, perhaps...

*Insert article quote*

"I think JJ's advise about practising in front of a TV may have been a bit misguided, as when you're watching the television, you may not be paying attention to the motion, the sound, or the feeling of the movement.

What does everyone else think?"


Your style was argumentative, as far as I can tell, for no good reason.

[Sponer]

He didn't say it should replace actual practice though. He just mentioned it as another option. That how I understood it, anyway.
he mentioned it in a way that if you dont want to be frustrated during practice, watch tv!

...because you'll still be able to be working the motion that will improve your plaiyng. It wasn't him just saying to not practice on a kit when you could just sit infront of a TV while you practice single stroke rolls, it was him saying that you can still practice while doing other things, because some people may not enjoy practicing (things like single stroke rolls) drums much. I know I personally play drums entirely for fun. I almost never sit down and practice a single stroke roll or bass drum exercises. So for people who are like that but still want to actually be able to improve their playing, practicing while watching TV is an alternative. Obviously not as good as the "real thing," but it'll get the job done.


I meant that more towards the fact the he is liked and influences a lot of drummers. It's not his fault that many drummers like his playing and want his advice.

obviously. but it is his fault if hes giving faulty advice. and before anyone jumps down my throat. im not saying all his advice is crap, as i said before, in essence almost everyones advice will be the same, its the details that demean(sp?) him.

He may not be the best drummer or have the best advice, but if he wasn't as popular as he is, I don't think you'd be saying all this. It is an issue of the fans, not him.

[stylers_new_account]

well then the next time you post an article, youll have it typed out the way you did it, and ill have it typed the way i did the next time i put one up.

theres no difference in the ways we put it. anyone reading the article will have figured what you typed out right off the bat.

the whole reason i typed out the article was because of how obvious his flaws were, i felt no need to re-state them.

"no good reason"

JJ was up to discussion, and he was discussed. you starting an argument, was for no good reason, your point was taken, but it could of been taken in a discussion, instead of an argument.


its a matter of his advice, and how if people are reading it, theyll be getting the wrong idea. popularity has something to do with the distribution of his advice, not the fact that im arguing that its sub-par.

[spirit]

JJ was up to discussion, and he was discussed. you starting an argument, was for no good reason, your point was taken, but it could of been taken in a discussion, instead of an argument.

Point taken. I apologise if I was a bit belligerent.

[Damo]

practicing infront of a tv is so obviously not proper practice. if your not able to dedicate the time to practicing your single stroke rolls with a metronome, and properly, dont practice them at all.

if your not gonna pratice with a metronome, atleast practice to a CD, where the time will be constant and even.

Tell me, what did he say to incur your wrath?

the same thing hes done to incur the wrath of every other person whos dissed him. give sub-par advice and ideals,plus give influence to the young drummers in need of better idols.

Your comments are completely and utterly arrogant. Here we have a player who has utilised methods of practise which have resulted in success, and people want to know how he got there. You can hardly say its poor advice if its already proven to work for him.

Youve also completely missed the point about practising in front of a tv. Its not done to work on timing or speed, its about comfort and relaxation when you play - and often thats best done if you can turn your mind away from the drill exercises and relax. Its a very effective way of simulating the distractions that can occur onstage.

Instead of jumping up and down whining about players who are out there influencing generations of younger drummers, perhaps you could step back and learn a thing or two.

Either that, or make yourself known and teach the rest of the world your correct viewpoint.

:(

[A Dead Modernist]

Nicely put Damo.

[spirit]

Nicely put Damo.

Quite. He said it better than I did, I think.

[Vannaroth]

Honestly, Styler; how much of your disapproval was to do with the fact that it's Joey? If it was any other drummer, would you have had the same reaction?

In fact, don't answer that. It's already blindingly obvious.

[LoneStarDrummer]

i personally find rudiments boring as hell so i generally turn on the television and work my way through them. my entire practice set up in my room in college in set up in front of the tv. originally it was to practice along with my creative control dvd, but i mainly just watch the ol boob tube instead.

[stylers_new_account]

Honestly, Styler; how much of your disapproval was to do with the fact that it's Joey? If it was any other drummer, would you have had the same reaction?

In fact, don't answer that. It's already blindingly obvious.

honestly, how much does your response to my thread have to do with it being joey, you could probably skip answering that. its darn obvious.

i would have had probably a worse reaction, if i saw any other "pro" drummer saying stuff like that, id demand they were burned at the stake, or something of that sort. jumping down peoples throats are a good way to state your ignorance.


to damo:
can you explain how my opinion is completely and utterly arrogant because its not YOUR opinion? hes not known for his success as a drummer, hes known as SLIPKNOTs drummer. he would be just another unknown if he wasnt with them. he didnt state at all how he got to be in slipknot, which by your explanation is what he should be doing.

fair enough on the TV part, but your missing the point ive made on the TV stand point. you qouted me on it actually. its been a couple hours since ive said it though, i cant remember how clear i made that point, ill edit if it wasnt made clear.

damo the last two paragraphs of your post were garbage. save it for elementary school.

[TerranCmdr]

STFU Styler, you're just being ignorant and immature now. You're obviously going off on Joey because you hate him and you can't take it when people poke holes in your flawed opinions. In fact, you're probably just sore because Joey is famous and you're not.

I hope this thread ends soon.

[Little Android Man]

Look I don't put JJ up there in my top 30 drummers, but i still have respect for him being that he is one of the major reasons his band is so famous, and i recognize his skill as a drummer. Just because he has fanboys coming out of his *** doesn't mean he isn't a good drummer.

The advise he gave was very professional.

PRACTICING WHILE WATCHING TV IS PERFECTLY FINE GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR *** AND THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK.
The method is for building MUSCLE MEMORY, has nothing to do with timing. All three of my drum teachers have told me to do that, and guess what, they are professionals all the same as JJ. And to boot they were all amazing drummers that were somewhat accomplished.


can you explain how my opinion is completely and utterly arrogant because its not YOUR opinion? hes not known for his success as a drummer, hes known as SLIPKNOTs drummer. he would be just another unknown if he wasnt with them.

The arrogance of that statement sent me flying back in my chair. If your logic is all high and mighty, then i guess you believe that some of the greats (Bonham, Moon, Peart, Portney, etc.) would have been known just on their talent alone? THE ANSWER IS NO.



Now before you make another idiotic thread like this, DON'T.
k

[spirit]

The irony of this tickles me. This thread was created with the purpose of bashing JJ, and yet it was the threadstarter who bought the brunt, in fact, all of the flaming.

[Pauly]

I've always thought of practicing in front of the TV as a bit iffy.

Muscle memory is muscle activity that is learned and becomes automatic with practice, right? So if you learn to play sloppy, practice sloppy, you'll automatically play sloppy. That's what I've gathered from my experience.

<evidence> When I began learning double bass I used to play along to music, practicing things like 5,7,9 stroke rolls (singles). After about 2 weeks I was pretty happy with the results. However, when I tried playing against a click I got a big slap in the face. My strokes were noticeably out from the click. So I took two weeks break (to try and "unlearn" my playing) and started from square one.

So now I always learn new rudiments/grooves/exercises to a click. Then practice to a click. Only after muscle memory takes over will I play without a click.

[spirit]

Oh yes, I completely agree. However, once your technique is solid, I don't see anything wrong with practising with the TV on. Like I said earlier, even if the TV's on, I still use a click.

That said, each to his own.

[Damo]

to damo:
can you explain how my opinion is completely and utterly arrogant because its not YOUR opinion?
Dont make it personal - It has nothing to do with my opinions.

It is arrogant because you dismiss the views of others as stupid, yet offer no superior advice of your own on how it should be done properly. Its an even higher level of arrogance when its the views of professional players with knowledge and experience in the field.

Your statement is also hypocritical because its exactly what youre doing with Joeys opinions - dismissing them as wrong or stupid simply because you disagree with them.

hes not known for his success as a drummer, hes known as SLIPKNOTs drummer. he would be just another unknown if he wasnt with them.
Hardly...
And "What if's..." just dont cut it. The fact is, he IS in slipknot. He probably out-auditioned many other drummers for the role too.

He has several custom drum items made in his name.
He has hordes of young drummers looking up to him and asking for his advice in magaizines like Modern drummer.
He has a side-band which has seen success largely due to the fact that hes the singer...

Just how much further must he climb before hes successful in your eyes?

All Im saying is dont rip apart people that make the effort to offer their advice. Its never a bad idea to consider others' standpoints - and sometimes you just may learn something you didnt know.

[maniac0796]

Rudiments are really really boring IMO. I might actually follow his advice tonight. Get out my pad, sit down, watch, ummm, I've got a craving for james bond at the moment, so I'll watch that, and just practice my doubles, especially left hand.

See if it works.

Casino Royale!

[spirit]

Rudiments are really really boring IMO. I might actually follow his advice tonight. Get out my pad, sit down, watch, ummm, I've got a craving for james bond at the moment, so I'll watch that, and just practice my doubles, especially left hand.

See if it works.

Casino Royale!

Nice. I like Casino Royale. I also like doubles, though my left hand needs work. Actually, it always does.

[The Chemist]

Look I don't put JJ up there in my top 30 drummers, but i still have respect for him being that he is one of the major reasons his band is so famous, and i recognize his skill as a drummer. Just because he has fanboys coming out of his *** doesn't mean he isn't a good drummer.


Among the best things ever said on MX.

Styler, you come across as a string-bean cunt. Stating that Joey, a professional who's probably WAY more skilled than you are, is wrong about HIS practice technique, makes you sound arrogant. Apparently he's done SOMETHING right, he has fans, he has custom percussion items, and he's really good at what he does.

Maybe when Pearl asks to design a snare with you, and you have fans, and are in a world-famous band, I'd, and probably most of MX, would listen to your claims of wrong-doing on Joey's part. But, until then, shut up.

[A Dead Modernist]

This thread gets a big F, for failure.

[Retarded Chipple]

Practicing in front of the TV could sometimes be a good way to show you have something down and that you've acquired the necessary muscle memory for the particular exercise. If you can go through the rudiments without properly concentrating (i.e. whilst watching TV) then chances are you have them nailed!

IIRC theres a little bit about practicing and being able to concentrate with the TV on in The New Breed.

Having said all that, I personally practice without any other distractions. I try to properly focus and I do believe your head needs to be *there* in order to practice fully. Practicing in front of the TV most likely won't give as good as results as not practicing in front of it. It is however, quite nice to freeplay on the pad whilst watching TV or try out some quirky ideas, practice brushes or other little things that you may feel need to be incorported into your full practice but want to try out anyway whilst chilling.

[Sponer]

Haha, I just rememberd this.

At our old practice space, it was also the place we'd always hang out and drink or whatever, so there were a bunch of couches and a TV in the other corner opposite where all out gear was. The TV was usually on with some DVD playing, so when we'd practice our songs we (well, I did anyway) would just be watching the TV too. :p