Here's To Our Existence

[BassVirtuoso]

What do you think conception actually is? Do you think "we" would be born no matter what sperm/egg combination occured. Or is our sole existence, rather than our traits, based on the combination of that one particular egg and that one particular sperm. When you think about the various ovulation periods, the different eggs, the millions of sperm released at a time, are we really that lucky to be existing when billions of other possible combinations could have happened, between only 2 people?

[YouGottaBeCrazy]

I think about this often. I don't have an answer for you, though.

[Permanent Solution]

Upbringing and life experience plays as much a role in who you are as what sperm and egg came together to make you.

[italic zero]

That question doesn't really have an answer because it relies on a largely illusory definition of self.

[GreyHam]

its certainly a tricky question...and probably a very lucky coincidence that that specific genetic combination was made (that made us)

the way i think of it is that i could quite easily have ended up looking like my brother, and im well chuffed that i dont

[artra]

You could look at this topic in a very scientific way: whether you were the one who matched it to be the first one in the egg as a sperm doesn't matter, it could also have been any other sperm; two people have sex, the sperms swim to the egg, one will do it (or more, considering multiples).

You are born and live your life, getting influenced by everything that happens around you.
---
but now there is a problem we all know: what's the purpose ?
---

I personally think there is no such thing as the allround-"meaning of life" given. Everyone has to find his own purpose for being (again, this is my own opinion, and I'm not saying you all have to do it!) and for me, it's LOVE and MUSIC, nothing else, I live for love and music.


artra

[masada]

how can you be something else

[Permanent Solution]

No the meaning of life is easy the meaning of life is to be happy.

[Danger Bird]

Individual consciousness really is the greatest possible mind****

[BassVirtuoso]

I'm not really talking about the meaning of life, I'm just wondering what would happen if it was the sperm right next to the one that fertilized us that fertilized the egg, would we even exist in the first place?

[artra]

No the meaning of life is easy the meaning of life is to be happy.

music and love make me happy like nothing else; and you're right as you agree with me in some way, as I think if you have found what's your "purpose", you are happy.

[Permanent Solution]

I'm not really talking about the meaning of life, I'm just wondering what would happen if it was the sperm right next to the one that fertilized us that fertilized the egg, would we even exist in the first place?
What you are actually asking is how a person is defined and that has a huge spectrum of answers.
music and love make me have like nothing else; and you're right as you agree with me in some way, as I think if have found what's your "purpose", you are happy.
Yes I was just saying it's not as puzzling as people make it out to be.

[lunchforthesky]

I'm not really talking about the meaning of life, I'm just wondering what would happen if it was the sperm right next to the one that fertilized us that fertilized the egg, would we even exist in the first place?

Nope. It's all just luck and chance. Isn't the universe magnificantly pointless :)

[BassVirtuoso]

What you are actually asking is how a person is defined and that has a huge spectrum of answers.



Oh I see what you're saying, I wasn't even thinking of that aspect. I was just considering 2 options. 1. You exist 2. You, don't exist. If it's at all possible not to exist in the first place...

[artra]

if it was the sperm right next to the one that fertilized us that fertilized the egg, would we even exist in the first place?

no, every sperm is individual even in its state

[Surtr]

Oh I see what you're saying, I wasn't even thinking of that aspect. I was just considering 2 options. 1. You exist 2. You, don't exist. If it's at all possible not to exist in the first place...

Well man,

It's basically, if it was the sperm right next to you..YOU wouldn't exist.

You'd be your brother. But since you don't exist, you'd just be your mum's son again, just slightly different looking. You'd most likely turn out a fair bit alike as you are now though, due to the environment you're living in being basically identical.

[Reaganista]

the self is not a genetic trait it's conditioned by society

[Permanent Solution]

Oh I see what you're saying, I wasn't even thinking of that aspect. I was just considering 2 options. 1. You exist 2. You, don't exist. If it's at all possible not to exist in the first place...

Yeah but it's not really that easy because in order to decide whether or not you exist you have to determine what you are and what characteristics make you exist.

Without defining that it's impossible to say whether or not you would exist if you had been born of different biological circumstances.

[Smokey D]

the self is not a genetic trait it's conditioned by society

The self is, at least in part, conditioned by society's response to your genes.

That's why good looking people have it easier than ugos.

[CarnageFairy]

Well man,

It's basically, if it was the sperm right next to you..YOU wouldn't exist.

You'd be your brother. But since you don't exist, you'd just be your mum's son again, just slightly different looking. You'd most likely turn out a fair bit alike as you are now though, due to the environment you're living in being basically identical.

Eh, it's impossible to say. When you change something on the timeline which has that kind of magnitude in an individuals' life who knows what could/couldn't have (not) happened.

Could have no bearing at all, it could change everything about the world as we know it.

[PerpetualBurn]

No the meaning of life is easy the meaning of life is to be happy.

No the meaning of life is easy the meaning of life is to suffer.

[pedro durruti]

The meaning of life is meow

[Permanent Solution]

No.

Life ends when it no longer had any meaning. Life without suffering does not end.

Life without happiness does.

You are confusing meaning with facts of existence.

[PerpetualBurn]

No.

Life ends when it no longer had any meaning. Life without suffering does not end.

Life without happiness does.

You are confusing meaning with facts of existence.

No I'm not. I just said the opposite of what you did because really you have no way to say such a thing.

I don't even know what you mean by "life ends when it no longer had any meaning...". It didn't make a whole lot of sense.

[Dreaming Neon Black]

I thought about this today, actually, in history.

Its almost unanswerable though, because its impossible to tell in the unfertilized state.

[Permanent Solution]

No I'm not. I just said the opposite of what you did because really you have no way to say such a thing.

I don't even know what you mean by "life ends when it no longer had any meaning...". It didn't make a whole lot of sense.
Well when you have no reason to continue living, you'll stop. Or such is my theory at least =)

[PerpetualBurn]

Well that makes no sense.

Since "reason" doesn't really mean a lot in an ultimate sense unless you know of some higher power.

[pedro durruti]

Not all hopeless depression ends in suicide, and even if it does, it may not happen immediately.

[Independent_CA]

Life is a series of chemical reactions.

[Permanent Solution]

Not all hopeless depression ends in suicide, and even if it does, it may not happen immediately.

I don't mean it immediately but in the long run, without happiness you have no will to live and even if it takes 20 years for that to kill you it does.

[PerpetualBurn]

I have some news that may shock you.

Happy people die every day.

[Permanent Solution]

It's true, you can't avoid death just by being happy. But if you could then we'd all live to be quite old because there'd be good pills to just keep you happy forever.

[pedro durruti]

I don't mean it immediately but in the long run, without happiness you have no will to live and even if it takes 20 years for that to kill you it does.
20 years of living and no will to live?

[Permanent Solution]

20 years of living and no will to live?
Given the option of suicide or living many people with no will to live will still chose to not commit suicide for one reason or another. They are, however, just waiting for life to kill them. But, some people do not find that opportune moment to lose their life for many years.

[Oriah]

*Yoda voice*

The human perception of life matters not,

To comprehend existence, humans cannot.

[pedro durruti]

Given the option of suicide or living many people with no will to live will still chose to not commit suicide for one reason or another.
Such as the will to live?
They are, however, just waiting for life to kill them. But, some people do not find that opportune moment to lose their life for many years.
If suffering is intolerable for a person, then all moments offer the opportunity.

If the meaning of life were anything, whatever exactly it means, it would be existence. But there's nothing that suggests that means happiness.

[Permanent Solution]

Such as the will to live?

If suffering is intolerable for a person, then all moments offer the opportunity.

If the meaning of life were anything, whatever exactly it means, it would be existence. But there's nothing that suggests that means happiness.

Lack of a will to live does not imply existence of a will to not live.

It's not so easy to die without commiting suicide, surprisingly.

[RIP Ian Curtis]

No the meaning of life is easy the meaning of life is to be happy.

No way man. Happiness = entropy. I'm glad I haven't reached some kind of happiness at my age, happiness is something you get when you've finished living.

[GreyHam]

Such as the will to live?



usually a fear of death... even though someone doesnt want to carry on living, the fact that whats on the other side of the old life/death divide might actually be worse is enough to put someone off

plus, its quite a psychologically demanding thing to take your own life. there can be a lot of thought involved. and a lot of times (especially when a firearms involved) people just end up removing their jaw or a peice of their face instead of killing themselves. which is ****

[Meatplow]

I don't really think of the probability of what if's once something has happened, my existence is just what came out of the genetics. It could of been something else, but it wasn't.

[RIP Ian Curtis]

usually a fear of death... even though someone doesnt want to carry on living, the fact that whats on the other side of the old life/death divide might actually be worse is enough to put someone off

plus, its quite a psychologically demanding thing to take your own life. there can be a lot of thought involved. and a lot of times (especially when a firearms involved) people just end up removing their jaw or a peice of their face instead of killing themselves. which is ****

Suicide is damned difficult. Poison makes you vomit, hanging is too weird, wrist cutting isn't effective enough. It's hard to pull off properly

[YouGottaBeCrazy]

not if you jump off a ****ing bridge

[superpeer]

Yes I was just saying it's not as puzzling as people make it out to be.

Just depends on how you interpret 'life'. Because it can be puzzling. Certainly not every creature roaming about seeks to be 'happy'.

if it was the sperm right next to the one that fertilized us that fertilized the egg, would we even exist in the first place?

It's a strange thought. We could be like our brother or sister. =|

I wonder if we would have the same inner voice, so to speak, just with a different personality and in a different body, it's hard to imagine not existing.

[Reaganista]

The self is, at least in part, conditioned by society's response to your genes.

That's why good looking people have it easier than ugos.
except attractiveness is culturally defined

[Oriah]

Did No One freakin read what I said.

[Reaganista]

the yoda thing
ya i read it i thought it was stupid

[ringworm]

would we be the same person if conception/sex would have happened a few minutes or on another day?

arent there millions of combos the DNA could take when the sperm hits the egg? so if it happened a few seconds later than it did, you could possibly be a completely different person?

[spitfirejunky]

I'm not really talking about the meaning of life, I'm just wondering what would happen if it was the sperm right next to the one that fertilized us that fertilized the egg, would we even exist in the first place?

That question addresses whether personal identity is bound by the physical.

You'll likely get a categorical no from most people on this forum.

[ashman]

Suicide is damned difficult. Poison makes you vomit, hanging is too weird, wrist cutting isn't effective enough. It's hard to pull off properly

You're obviously using the wrong poisons and not cutting in the right place :P

[GreyHam]

the yoda thing
ya i read it i thought it was stupid

yea, pretty much what tway said...

[Shadius]

That question doesn't really have an answer because it relies on a largely illusory definition of self.

i concur.

[RIP Ian Curtis]

You're obviously using the wrong poisons and not cutting in the right place :P

Both of those statements are entirely true

[CarnageFairy]

arent there millions of combos the DNA could take when the sperm hits the egg? so if it happened a few seconds later than it did, you could possibly be a completely different person?

Not just possibly, but I would think almost certainly.

That is the very beginning of your life, probably the most important moment of it. If this moment goes in a different direction, then the entire course of your life will also.

Or so I've heard.

[Oriah]

yea, pretty much what tway said...

Well the Yoda part was just me being silly but the thing I was saying holds true. Think about it.

[italic zero]

do you really think you said something deep and meaningful?

[Oriah]

do you really think you said something deep and meaningful?

perhaps you misunderstood, we were talking about life and death 'n' suicide all that stuff correct? So I am saying that the human perspective of life itself can NOT matter in the long run because our ability to conceive our own existence or that of the creator(s) is unfathomable.

[Reaganista]

no it's not

[pedro durruti]

Lack of a will to live does not imply existence of a will to not live.
So what does it imply?
usually a fear of death... even though someone doesnt want to carry on living, the fact that whats on the other side of the old life/death divide might actually be worse is enough to put someone off

plus, its quite a psychologically demanding thing to take your own life. there can be a lot of thought involved. and a lot of times (especially when a firearms involved) people just end up removing their jaw or a peice of their face instead of killing themselves. which is ****
Isn't that a reason or a will to live?

[Permanent Solution]

So what does it imply?


It implies that you do not care to stay alive and would not mind dying.

You can not care if you die versus actively wanting to die.

[Lupus]

Lots of people would find death better than life but still wouldn't kill themselves because of their inherent fear of death.

[Futue te Ipsum]

That question doesn't really have an answer because it relies on a largely illusory definition of self.thread should've ended here.

[Oriah]

no it's not

yea it is.

[Reaganista]

o ya that's an interesting observation

or not

[Oriah]

o ya that's an interesting observation

or not

Don't be mad you can't understand what no one can understand.

[Smokey D]

Lots of people would find death better than life but still wouldn't kill themselves because of their inherent fear of death.

Wrong. People wouldn't find death anything on account of them being dead.

[Lupus]

Wrong. People wouldn't find death anything on account of them being dead.

I knew someone was going to say that.

[Reaganista]

Don't be mad you can't understand what no one can understand.
actually i have a good understanding of it
what's happening here is you're assuming that no one can understand something that you don't

[Oriah]

actually i have a good understanding of it
what's happening here is you're assuming that no one can understand something that you don't

You cannot know any Truth of our existence nor of why we are here nor of the creator. You can believe what you want from earthly text, but you will never have any Facts on the matter. There is no Truth in understanding existence. Truth=false. If you knew anything that powerful then you wouldn't be here now would you. All there is to understand is that there is no understanding the understood.

[EADG]

In before abortion/religion/a.i. arguments ruin thread

[Shadius]

You cannot know any Truth of our existence nor of why we are here nor of the creator. You can believe what you want from earthly text, but you will never have any Facts on the matter. There is no Truth in understanding existence. Truth=false. If you knew anything that powerful then you wouldn't be here now would you. All there is to understand is that there is no understanding the understood.

There isn't a creator, it's called evolution matey. A universe with intelligent design (especially one where the creator actually pays any interest in his creation) wouldn't be anything like this one.

[spitfirejunky]

Evolution has no bearing on creation.

[Oriah]

There isn't a creator, it's called evolution matey. A universe with intelligent design (especially one where the creator actually pays any interest in his creation) wouldn't be anything like this one.

Creator-origin-evolution. whatever you prefer to call it. Besides what you just said here is a "maybe" its not a valid Truth, exactly what I was saying before.

[Reaganista]

You cannot know any Truth of our existence nor of why we are here nor of the creator. You can believe what you want from earthly text, but you will never have any Facts on the matter. There is no Truth in understanding existence. Truth=false. If you knew anything that powerful then you wouldn't be here now would you. All there is to understand is that there is no understanding the understood.
you're an idiot
what's happening here is you're assuming that no one can understand something that you don't

[Oriah]

you're an idiot
what's happening here is you're assuming that no one can understand something that you don't

I'm thinking you have no idea what I'm talking about. In any case Please Enilighten us with your assumed (and it IS ASSUMED) knowledge of the universe. What you think you understand is just that, What you Think.

[Reaganista]

http://www.talkorigins.org/

[Oriah]

http://www.talkorigins.org/

umm thanks for helping my argument?

These are all ideas and theories on the subject, nothing worth being called Truth. They know this, most people do, try as you might you'll never really know the truth. Maybe we'll find out when we die, if anyone really knew all the answers we seek then we'd all know about them. But we don't, we are so far behind that claim that if you assume you know the truth then all you really are is a believer in your faith, nothing more, nothing worth real truth.

[Reaganista]

what actually happened is the truth
if anyone really knew all the answers we seek then we'd all know about them
wat

[Oriah]

what actually happened is the truth

wat

Then what are you implying happened that gives you "truth"

[Reaganista]

that's a completely incoherent sentence

[Oriah]

that's a completely incoherent sentence

Listen I'm just trying to have a good discussion and I think you are taking it a little personal. If not, then say something worth while at least. Seriously though we are getting a-bit general, lets get a more specific topic, you can choose.

[RockAndRoll]

You cannot know any Truth of our existence nor of why we are here nor of the creator. You can believe what you want from earthly text, but you will never have any Facts on the matter. There is no Truth in understanding existence. Truth=false. If you knew anything that powerful then you wouldn't be here now would you. All there is to understand is that there is no understanding the understood.

You're not making any sense. "Truth=false"? no it doesn't. That's ridiculous. Stop just making random crap up.

[Reaganista]

Listen I'm just trying to have a good discussion and I think you are taking it a little personal. If not, then say something worth while at least. Seriously though we are getting a-bit general, lets get a more specific topic, you can choose.

wtf ??

[Jharaski]

I always wondered at this. What if my dad didn't bone my mom? What if they simply never met? The billions of possible things that could have gone wrong along the way that could have kept them apart - and their parents apart, and theirs, and so on, is astounding. Would "I" (my soul, so to speak) exist as another being, or would "I" simply never have existed? What if it was a different sperm that made it - would I exist, simply in another person, or would my being never have existed? It's mind boggling.

[Oriah]

You're not making any sense. "Truth=false"? no it doesn't. That's ridiculous. Stop just making random crap up.

no it does make sense if I could only explain it better.

Think of it this way, there are no real facts only what we perceive to be facts. The laws of our universe may be different in another or in another realm. Because there are always infinite possibilites for Everything, so when I said "Truth=false" that just means any truth you percieve to be fact here on this earth may be false in somewhere else. And when we are talking about Life-existence, ect. We have to keep in mind that our Truths here may not pertain to others that could or could not be out there that also deal with these topics.

[PerpetualBurn]

there are no real facts

Two mutually exclusive events cannot both occur.

Fact.

You lose.

[Oriah]

Two mutually exclusive events cannot both occur.

Fact.

You lose.

Yes, but this only pertains to our universe. There could be other laws beyond our perception or physical grasp that make up other realms, dimensions, and/or parallel universes.

[Smokey D]

That's utterly worthless speculation since no claim can ever be made and no one ever makes a claim about 'other universes'.

[RockAndRoll]

That that claim in itself is a statement of what you, Oriah, (incorrectly) believe to be true (i.e. fact) and therefore is self-defeating.

Edit: Also, for the record, what perpetual burn said is true in any universe.

[Oriah]

That's utterly worthless speculation since no claim can ever be made and no one ever makes a claim about 'other universes'.

That doesn't mean that they arn't possibilities.

[Oriah]

That that claim in itself is a statement of what you, Oriah, (incorrectly) believe to be true (i.e. fact) and therefore is self-defeating.

Edit: Also, for the record, what perpetual burn said is true in any universe.

forgive me then, scratch 'universe' off the list. Alternate realms and dimensions are still up there.

-and I don't Believe it to be true, I believe it to be a possibility.

[Smokey D]

That doesn't mean that they arn't possibilities.

It means there is absolutely no reason to include such unfounded speculation in debate. 'Alternate dimensions' are pretty bullshit, but the way. The Universe is all energy in existence and every dimensional variation thereof. Additional dimensions beyond the 4 we normally deal with aren't 'alternate', they are simply unobserved.

[PerpetualBurn]

forgive me then, scratch 'universe' off the list. Alternate realms and dimensions are still up there.

-and I don't Believe it to be true, I believe it to be a possibility.

No. My fact would be true there too.

[Oriah]

No. My fact would be true there too.

heh what are you talking about, you nor anyone can know that.

[Oriah]

Additional dimensions beyond the 4 we normally deal with aren't 'alternate', they are simply unobserved.

Same difference.

[Smokey D]

No it's not because it means there aren't additional existences for facts to occur in.


heh what are you talking about, you nor anyone can know that.

No, it is logically impossible for anything other than his point to occur. Two mutually exclusive events cannot occur simultaneously because they would not be mutually exclusive if they could.

[ashman]

I think Oriah is saying, in an alternate universe were our laws of Physics don't apply, two mutally exclusive events (in our Universe) could happen together.

And Smokey D/PB are saying that a mutally exclusive 'thing' is defined by the fact that they if they can happen at the same time, they're not mutally exclusive.

Am I on the right track?

[Unreal]

I always wondered at this. What if my dad didn't bone my mom? What if they simply never met? The billions of possible things that could have gone wrong along the way that could have kept them apart - and their parents apart, and theirs, and so on, is astounding. Would "I" (my soul, so to speak) exist as another being, or would "I" simply never have existed? What if it was a different sperm that made it - would I exist, simply in another person, or would my being never have existed? It's mind boggling.

That's when 'fate' crosses my mind.

[pedro durruti]

I think Oriah is saying, in an alternate universe were our laws of Physics don't apply, two mutally exclusive events (in our Universe) could happen together.

If there were an alternate universe whose premise was that it was illogical, then two mutually exclusive events even in its universe could happen together. Although this is all ridiculous! Think about how great pot would be in that universe.
I always wondered at this. What if my dad didn't bone my mom? What if they simply never met? The billions of possible things that could have gone wrong along the way that could have kept them apart - and their parents apart, and theirs, and so on, is astounding. Would "I" (my soul, so to speak) exist as another being, or would "I" simply never have existed? What if it was a different sperm that made it - would I exist, simply in another person, or would my being never have existed? It's mind boggling.
The I is borne from the body so if the sperm and egg that created you were any different, so too would your I be different. Although you could say that you'd have very similar experiences, but not quite because physical appearance changes how you react to yourself and how others react to you.
Think of it this way, there are no real facts only what we perceive to be facts. The laws of our universe may be different in another or in another realm. Because there are always infinite possibilites for Everything, so when I said "Truth=false" that just means any truth you percieve to be fact here on this earth may be false in somewhere else. And when we are talking about Life-existence, ect. We have to keep in mind that our Truths here may not pertain to others that could or could not be out there that also deal with these topics.
Why do you capitalize like a madman?

[Der Übermensch]

Two mutually exclusive events cannot both occur.

Fact.

You lose.

You could just point out that "There are no real facts" would in itself be a fact, thus proving itself to be incorrect...

[Oriah]

If there were an alternate universe whose premise was that it was illogical, then two mutually exclusive events even in its universe could happen together. Although this is all ridiculous! Think about how great pot would be in that universe.
:smoke:

I think Oriah is saying, in an alternate universe were our laws of Physics don't apply, two mutally exclusive events (in our Universe) could happen together.

And Smokey D/PB are saying that a mutally exclusive 'thing' is defined by the fact that they if they can happen at the same time, they're not mutally exclusive.

Am I on the right track?

Exactly. :thumb:

[Oriah]

You could just point out that "There are no real facts" would in itself be a fact, thus proving itself to be incorrect...

That was just poor wording on my part, there are facts for this universe, but possibly not the same facts for others.

[Futue te Ipsum]

No the meaning of life is easy the meaning of life is to be happy.Err, no.

[Jharaski]

Yeah the meaning of life is to **** and give life to others.

edit - which makes us happy, so I guess, indirectly... the meaning of life IS to be happy!

[RockAndRoll]

That was just poor wording on my part, there are facts for this universe, but possibly not the same facts for others.

Okay, so you agree that there are facts.

[RIP Ian Curtis]

Yeah the meaning of life is to **** and give life to others.

edit - which makes us happy, so I guess, indirectly... the meaning of life IS to be happy!

Go have a worthless, screaming brat and see how damned happy you are.

[Jharaski]

Go have a worthless, screaming brat and see how damned happy you are.

As long as the sex is good :p

Which is what I meant to begin with. ****ing makes kids, and its side effect is happiness... as long as the kids don't ruin it.

[lfantwister]

Go have a worthless, screaming brat and see how damned happy you are.

..you were a kid once too

[Jharaski]

yeah we were all kids, but not all of us were little shits. I never was, I hear. I was too scared to act out.

[RIP Ian Curtis]

..you were a kid once too

Maybe so, but that doesn't mean I want one of my own. I'm happy I can't reproduce.

[Lupus]

Why can't you reproduce? If you are otherwise sexually functional I envy you.

[RIP Ian Curtis]

Otherwise sexually functional yes. As in I can reach orgasm in the normal way yep. My bollocks don't function anymore on account of blunt force trauma inflicted by half a dozen fuc'cking lebbos.

[Lupus]

Otherwise sexually functional yes. As in I can reach orgasm in the normal way yep. My bollocks don't function anymore on account of blunt force trauma inflicted by half a dozen fuc'cking lebbos.

Damn, can't say I envy that.

[RIP Ian Curtis]

Ain't life unkind.