College

[Hababi]

What should the government's philosophy be toward college? Should it provide more funding and more grants for students to attend? Should it provide college, for free, to high achieving students? Some have even suggested paying college students for high achievement. What do you think?

[Independent_CA]

There should be more funding available in general to everyone. This should especially be true in the area of scholarships/grants. There should be more of them and they should be less restricted, IE: based on academic achievement and not on race, income, etc.

[Already_Taken]

Higher education should be paid for by the government, just as it is for the first 13 years.

[dei]

Higher education should be paid for by the government, just as it is for the first 13 years.

Yes.

[GreyHam]

although i think that funding should be available so that everyone has the oppurtunity to go to university, regardless of background, i think funding HE for everyone isnt a feasable option at all. the costs involved make people think seriously about wether HE is the best course to take, and the financial implication are an important lesson in maturity for those who do go away - for most itll be the first time they get in debt, and a student loan (at least in the UK) is probably the easiest lesson in debt to be learning.

theres also the obvious argument of where is this money going to come from, raised taxes (noone would agree to that) or diverted from somewhere else (somewhere probably with a higher need of funding)

[lunchforthesky]

Higher education should be paid for by the government, just as it is for the first 13 years.

Yep. The government should always be encouraging the advancement of learning amongst its populace.

[Cain]

I think everything education-related should be given more funding, although the private universities are useful because they can provide unique schemas for their operation and not be as bureaucratic.

I don't think a school like mine would exist in a world of government funded higher education.

As far as helping students attend, schools should just simply cost less money to attend.

[griftadan]

investments in infrastructure need to be made first, just handing kids money for school is just going to make it more expensive for everyone else.

[Akira]

I think everything education-related should be given more funding, although the private universities are useful because they can provide unique schemas for their operation and not be as bureaucratic.

I don't think a school like mine would exist in a world of government funded higher education.

As far as helping students attend, schools should just simply cost less money to attend.

Seriously. I don't understand how college can be so expensive.

[Dr Hooch]

Anyone smart enoguh to get into university should get sufficient financial help to allow them to go to university.

In an ideal world everyone would be loaned the money they'd need to go to university at a low interest rate and everyone would have to pay it back once they were earning.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Higher education should be paid for by the government, just as it is for the first 13 years.
We have that here. It just led to more middle class parents sending their kids to private school and poor kids still don't go to college.

[Black Ink]

Seriously. I don't understand how college can be so expensive.

Because it's actually a business.

[spitfirejunky]

One that gouges prices?

[Smokey D]

Don't colleges use the fees they receive from their cheaper courses to subsidise their high cost stuff like med?

Also, interest free loans with financial support are good. Also, bonded scholarships.

[GreyHam]

Don't colleges use the fees they receive from their cheaper courses to subsidise their high cost stuff like med?

Also, interest free loans with financial support are good. Also, bonded scholarships.

thats how i understood it

i do politics and philosophy, its about 8 contact hours a week and the rest is free reading. does that cost 1050 quid a year to put on? nope, but as you rightly said medicine costs a lot more than that

its not tuition fees that get you anyway, its the cost of living, which the government really SHOULDNT be giving you the money for just because

[-1up!-]

Yep. The government should always be encouraging the advancement of learning amongst its populace.

Exactly. It is for the benefit of all society that its populace be educated as deeply as it wishes, free from financial restraints. It is the kind of investment which can hardly be calculated but undeniably benefits all.

Given the specific nature of education, I think colleges should never be considered as businesses among others competing in a capitalist environment. High-level education more than likely results in high-salary jobs and that amounts to a healthy flow of tax money to the government; furthermore, I feel safe to suppose that educated masses are a garantee of social order.

[Smokey D]

Most governments can't afford free tertiary education on the scale it's provided today. Greece is a perfect example of what happens when there's no alternative to free education (students protesting for fee paying universities).

Tertiary education should be promoted and supported, but attempting to provide free education will probably be detrimental in the long term.


i do politics and philosophy, its about 8 contact hours a week and the rest is free reading. does that cost 1050 quid a year to put on? nope, but as you rightly said medicine costs a lot more than that

What a jip! I do history/politics and I have a 16 hour week.


its not tuition fees that get you anyway, its the cost of living, which the government really SHOULDNT be giving you the money for just because

My view is that it should be needs assessed. But really, the government paying people to learn is probably a better use of taxes than long term unemployment benefits.

[-1up!-]

Most governments can't afford free tertiary education on the scale it's provided today. Greece is a perfect example of what happens when there's no alternative to free education (students protesting for fee paying universities).


Wow and why is that? (Greek students protesting for fees)

[Smokey D]

Because there are like 5 books in the library or something.

[GreyHam]

yea, im not a big fan of the UK welfare system (mostly because of the hostilities towards asylum seekers, given that the cost of their benefits is something like 2% compared to 98% doleys)

4 1hour lectures and 4 1 hour seminars...

itll be interesting when i start my masters in 2008 (MA social work, about 8 months worth of 9-5 placement on top of everything else)

fun times

[Mr. Ron]

I think it should be free, but I don't know if that is possible in today's society.


Something has to be done about the price of book though....I spent $400 last year on books and only one of my classes used one book. They intentionally tell teachers to tell their students to get the book no matter if they aren't going to use it in class.

[Cybergasm]

I think the U.S. is definitely a country that can afford to fund all education if its budget was re-aligned to actually support its societal culture.

I think Germany is a perfect example. Over there, if I am remembering correctly, a year in college now runs about $500 (and this fee is something new). With such low educational costs they can afford to swing other things, like a firmer socialized health care system because its doctors are not ***-deep in debt.

[Mr. Ron]

I think the U.S. is definitely a country that can afford to fund all education if its budget was re-aligned to actually support its societal culture.

I think Germany is a perfect example. Over there, if I am remembering correctly, a year in college now runs about $500 (and this fee is something new). With such low educational costs they can afford to swing other things, like a firmer socialized health care system because its doctors are not ***-deep in debt.
Woah. :eek:


The college I'm transferring to costs $22,510.00 in tuition, and 8,875.00 on top of that for room and board if you want to dorm there.

[GreyHam]

Woah. :eek:


The college I'm transferring to costs $22,510.00 in tuition, and 8,875.00 on top of that for room and board if you want to dorm there.

**** me in the earlobe...

im guessing thats over the 3 years yes?

[Mr. Ron]

**** me in the earlobe...

im guessing thats over the 3 years yes?

Nope, thats the rate PER YEAR.

[GreyHam]

****...me...in...the...PP hole...

ok, maybe government subsidy would be nice

[Mr. Ron]

Thats actually one of the cheaper, good colleges in my area.

[Already_Taken]

What? Where do you live? And what do you consider "good"? I'd say the average tuition for college in Texas is about 10k a year.

I think that the government should only fund the tuition, leaving books, room and board and other miscellaneous expenses up to the student. If the student has no investment, they won't be as driven to succeed (like many whose parents foot the bill these days).

[Knifeboy]

Here in Denmark, going to uni is free.. In fact, as a student, I get paid 700-800 bucks a month so I can survive while studying

[pedro durruti]

What the ****

America sux

[Reaganista]

What should the government's philosophy be toward college?free
Should it provide more funding and more grants for students to attend? Should it provide college, for free, to high achieving students?
yes
Some have even suggested paying college students for high achievement. What do you think?
sure i would like free money tyvm

[italic zero]

my school is 32,000 in tuition alone but most kids (including me) get a lot of financial aid from the college

[Mr. Ron]

What? Where do you live? And what do you consider "good"? I'd say the average tuition for college in Texas is about 10k a year.

I think that the government should only fund the tuition, leaving books, room and board and other miscellaneous expenses up to the student. If the student has no investment, they won't be as driven to succeed (like many whose parents foot the bill these days).
I live in upstate NY. Its a very good private college for people who want to be educators. Are you judging a college for its tuition rates?

[GreyHam]

If the student has no investment, they won't be as driven to succeed (like many whose parents foot the bill these days).

i second this

[Reaganista]

(like many whose parents foot the bill these days).
ya if only i had to work a shitty job or two just to pay my bills that would really make more driven
of course my grades would be worse and i'd learn less but damn if i wouldnt be trying a lot harder

[GreyHam]

dont try and sound like a martyr, its called independence

[Reaganista]

ok great we can call it that what's your point

[Already_Taken]

or maybe take out a loan?

[GreyHam]

its what happens when you get older...and its part of what college is all about

if you spend the three (or however many years) just living off handouts then where does that leave you afterwards?

back to the parents basement...

[-1up!-]

Wow American colleges really are expensive, that's ridiculous
So much for the common stereotype that Americans are ignorant! With tuition fees that high, it's pretty understandable.

Going to uni full time for a year would cost me about 2500$ in tuition fees, maybe 600-800$ worth of books, and like 120$/month for the transport, and that's for 8 months.

For my case (I'm quite lucky I might say...) my parents pay 200$ per course and the transport. So for the next September - December period, my tuition fees are about 1100$ (800$ covered by my parents) almost 500$ for the transport (covered by my parents as well) which leaves me with a 300$ bill, plus the books, which will leave me with, say, 600$ to pay to attend uni for the next 4 months.

How do you guys manage to pay 10k $ and upwards to attend?!

[Already_Taken]

We don't. We take out loans, unless your parents hook you up.

[Dr Hooch]

Nope, thats the rate PER YEAR.

fifteen thousand pounds a year converted?

worst

country

ever

you'll get an education cheaper than that here without financial support!

[Cybergasm]

Wow American colleges really are expensive, that's ridiculous
So much for the common stereotype that Americans are ignorant! With tuition fees that high, it's pretty understandable.

Going to uni full time for a year would cost me about 2500$ in tuition fees, maybe 600-800$ worth of books, and like 120$/month for the transport, and that's for 8 months.

For my case (I'm quite lucky I might say...) my parents pay 200$ per course and the transport. So for the next September - December period, my tuition fees are about 1100$ (800$ covered by my parents) almost 500$ for the transport (covered by my parents as well) which leaves me with a 300$ bill, plus the books, which will leave me with, say, 600$ to pay to attend uni for the next 4 months.

How do you guys manage to pay 10k $ and upwards to attend?!

Scholarships, grants, financial aid, and the all time favorite: loans. This is a society that lives off of debt and credit. I'm moving to Germany the minute they give me my doctorate degree.

[Already_Taken]

Dr Hooch :

Okay, but he goes to a private university in New York. I went to a public university and lived in the dorms last year for under $11k.

[GreyHam]

my parents pay my tuition fees (£1050), my loan covers my rent (£3000), living costs come off my back

you dont have to work that hard to make £50 a week to live off tbf, its only 2 nights a week behind a bar or a full saturday in a shop

[Permanent Solution]

If higher education were free more people would go which would devalue education even more. Bachelors in the US are already so devalued it would be ridiculous to give education to everyone for free. While it's nice to learn, part of the nature of the education system in the US is to separate people into certain groups for tasks. Example: You don't go to college to work at McDonalds. You go to college for many many years to be a doctor. Why overeducate people at such a tremendous cost? Some people do need to be dishwashers and waiters and so on.

On a side note there are definitely instituitons that pay for high-achievers to go to school. Half the people in my house are paid to go to college currently (by the school).

[Cybergasm]

If higher education were free more people would go which would devalue education even more. Bachelors in the US are already so devalued it would be ridiculous to give education to everyone for free.

Long live the capitalist society, eh?


Disgusting.

*comment was not aimed at your explanation, just the reality of the situation*

[Hababi]

How do you guys manage to pay 10k $ and upwards to attend?!

I'm getting a good scholarship package, and will owe around $10,000 after I complete my bachelors degree. In part because my parents are poor.

[GreyHam]

not really, a socialist government would only pay for the education of those who were going to work in a proffesion required of a degree

more people go to uni courtesy of capitalism than they would in a socialist system

zero - would you feel patronised if i said 'diddums'?

cos i dont want you to, i just wanna say it... for the record

[Cybergasm]

I'm getting a good scholarship package, and will owe around $10,000 after I complete my bachelors degree. In part because my parents are poor.

Have you tried financial aid?

[dei]

I'll be getting loads in financial aid!

[Permanent Solution]

Federal financial aid is a joke from what I've seen.

And yeah I think capitalism actually has more to do with the impracticalness of the higher education system in many ways. College is something pretty much everyone in the middle class partakes in regardless of what profession they will be seeking. More and more college students don't even know what they're doing with a degree once they leave school. Such an impractical system is just a product of capitalism where the rich are trying to get richer by educating themselves. The problem is they have no goal in mind but having a college degree=more money in pretty much everyone's mind.

[GreyHam]

a lot of the attraction is the college experiance though, which i think can actually teach you a lot more than the degree itself.

i found where i wanted to go in life while i was at uni, and know a few others who have had the same experiance. it gives a lot of people time to become their own person without having to worry about working 9-5

[Permanent Solution]

But it's hardly justifiable to suggest the government subsidize kids at college until they figure out what they want to do with their lives.

[GreyHam]

i cant see it being justifiable to charge someone $20'000 dollars a year for education...

either way, you need to be of a certain academic level to attend uni, and you come out with a degree - a lot of jobs now require a degree or equivalent level qualification, without it being in any particular discipline - just the academic competance required is the benchmark

you cant honestly say that high school / sixth form is the ideal place for a person to develop as an individual, or to make a clear assesment on their future?

[Permanent Solution]

i cant see it being justifiable to charge someone $20'000 dollars a year for education...

either way, you need to be of a certain academic level to attend uni, and you come out with a degree - a lot of jobs now require a degree or equivalent level qualification, without it being in any particular discipline - just the academic competance required is the benchmark

you cant honestly say that high school / sixth form is the ideal place for a person to develop as an individual, or to make a clear assesment on their future?
I'd rather see someone charged 20k out of their own pocket to dick around and drink rather than out of the community's pocket. And if you haven't seen the huge numbers of people for whom this sort of characterization would apply you're at a pretty unique university.

I would hardly say there's any sort of academic qualification in getting a bachelors nowadays. The reason it's such a common requisite nowadays is not a matter of jobs getting more difficult, but rather a fact of college getting easier in my opinion. College used to be much more exclusive and only the most brilliant kids finished it. But nowadays you don't really need to be smart at all to get a bachelors or even a masters or PhD dare I claim it.

I can say high school is plenty of space to begin developing as a person but I went to a school that is vastly different from many schools I hear of. But rather than sending everyone to colleges I just wish more high schools would be like the one I went to.

[GreyHam]

yea, that is a good point (high schools). obviously i never had the US high school treatment, but the way its commonly depicted (bad way to judge i know) makes me think id probably have hated it...

subsidising tuition fees is the only limit id go to - the tax fund shouldnt be funding pissups and hash parties but if its going towards tuition fees, then at the very least its not funding that directly

going the distance at uni is as much a test of commitment and resolve as it is academic ability...despite the fact i need my degree to do my masters ive been tempted to drop out (or at least take a year out) a few times or various reasons, and i know A LOT of people who simply realised it wasnt for them and did cave in

people might make mistakes at uni, but they should be mistakes that everyone should be able to make, not just those who can afford it (balls ups at uni are important lessons to be learned!)

and dude - i go to hull uni...our most famous alumni is probably John Prescott...

[Permanent Solution]

yea, that is a good point (high schools). obviously i never had the US high school treatment, but the way its commonly depicted (bad way to judge i know) makes me think id probably have hated it...
The common depiction is allegedly quite accurate but as I said, at my school none of the traditional stereotypes really applied and it was an overall great experience.
subsidising tuition fees is the only limit id go to - the tax fund shouldnt be funding pissups and hash parties but if its going towards tuition fees, then at the very least its not funding that directlyI would support subsidizing tuition fees for high achieving students. Say maybe, waiving tuition for all students able to maintain a 3.75 or so.
going the distance at uni is as much a test of commitment and resolve as it is academic ability...despite the fact i need my degree to do my masters ive been tempted to drop out (or at least take a year out) a few times or various reasons, and i know A LOT of people who simply realised it wasnt for them and did cave inHolding a job is just as much a test of commitment as school is in my opinion. School is hardly the only place to learn commitment.
people might make mistakes at uni, but they should be mistakes that everyone should be able to make, not just those who can afford it (balls ups at uni are important lessons to be learned!)
As I said before, I think if more high schools were like the one I attended I'm quite certain it would do a ton towards developing a person. The amount of freedom I had in high school was in some ways even greater than what I have at uni, now that my parents no longer pay for me to live.
and dude - i go to hull uni...our most famous alumni is probably John Prescott...
...?

[GreyHam]

And if you haven't seen the huge numbers of people for whom this sort of characterization would apply you're at a pretty unique university.
hull uni certainly does not fit into a magic cambridge-esque quality lol

i dont understand GPA's so i cant really comment...although you are probably right, my major concern was that people from disadvantaged background could get left behind...although again under current systems a lot of people perform relatively poorly in school and go on to succeed in universities (especially people with learning difficulties, who are sometimes forgotten about in inner city schools etc)

but again, a nice secondary education standards reform would be well in

[Permanent Solution]

hull uni certainly does not fit into a magic cambridge-esque quality lol

i dont understand GPA's so i cant really comment...although you are probably right, my major concern was that people from disadvantaged background could get left behind...although again under current systems a lot of people perform relatively poorly in school and go on to succeed in universities (especially people with learning difficulties, who are sometimes forgotten about in inner city schools etc)

but again, a nice secondary education standards reform would be well in
GPAs are how academic performance is measured, and I think anyone who is achieving at a high level could be justified in attending school for free.

People from a disadvantaged background are already subsidized through federal aid in many cases via the less useful minority programs but mostly the FAFSA which just looks at how much money you make and if you don't make a lot the government helps pay for you to go to school if you're good enough to get in.

But yeah my main point is rather than getting the government to pay for a whole extra tier of education that is already becoming undervalued, I'd rather see them just do what they're already responsible for right. If we had good early education a lot of jobs wouldn't need kids to have college degrees anyways.

[Otherside]

PS arn't you running on a full ride from a hispanic scholarship fund >_>

[Hababi]

Have you tried financial aid?

yes that's why it'll only be that much ;)

[Permanent Solution]

PS arn't you running on a full ride from a hispanic scholarship fund >_>
I'm on full ride for national merit the hispanic thing was more a draw at Cornell, at ASU everyone is hispanic anyways.

[Double You Awful]

I'm starting at a college that was not too long ago a community college, and I had to pay $730 in tuition. For an undergrad degree, I don't really see why you should pay so much, so I just took the cheapest route for now. Two of my friends on the other hand, are going to UCSB and Georgetown, and they're paying almost $40,000 for their first year.

Colleges do charge alot for tuition, and higher achieving students should be rewarded methinks. My friend who is going to Georgetown graduated valedictorian with a 4.8 weighted GPA, got a perfect ACT score (the only person in the state), and a 2360 SAT score, but he still has to pay just as much. Grant it, the money isn't really a problem, but for students like this who couldn't afford it, yeah they should get a little help.

[Danger Bird]

I don't trust the government to run colleges at all, that's why college is such a better environment than high school.

[bradc1988]

I thought that although some countries in Europe provide really cheap tertiary education, like Germany, their housing costs are astronomical?

I like Australia's HECS scheme, if you're a citizen you automatically become eligble and the government pays a big chunk of fees. If I was full fee paying I'd end up owing around 85k (21k/year) but with HECS I'll only owe 28k (7k/year) and have forever to pay it off, although it is adjusted each year due to inflation.

I think some medicine courses get up to 237k/year which is ridiculous, and although I don't really think free education is plausible, certain incentives or subsidies should be available

[Akira]

I am lucky. My dad works at a good state school, so I can go there for half price. Half price of a state university is cheap.

[Independent_CA]

Permanent Solution has a point about it being impractical. I'm starting my 4th (technically senior) year of college tomorrow morning at SDSU and I'm still not totally sure what I want to do when I get out.

Now in my own defense, this is only my 2nd year here (I transferred from a JC last fall) and I have a lot of extra activities (job, Marine reserves, Greek life, etc). I'm a Political Science major and am attempting to start a double this semester and want to study abroad. I have an idea of some areas I'd like to go after I graduate, but I'm still not totally set on a career path. While my dad is pressuring me to "hurry up and finish" and my debt is starting to mount, I don't think I'm quite that bad off. If I manage to accomplish all my goals and graduate in a total of 4.5-5 years I don't think that would be bad at all.

However, there are several people I know at this school and others that are in similar situations to mine or are even graduating this coming spring and have absolutely no idea what they want to do. On top of that, they don't even really have any kind of plan, at least not that I've heard. An even better example; one of my good friends who I went to middle and high school with, just graduated this past May from a private school with a degree in Math and a minor in Computer Science. He so far hasn't been able to land a job, let alone that "lucrative" job that everyone expects after college...and he's been a degree holding graduate for over 4 months.

That's one of the key inefficiencies I see with the university system. Everyone, especially parents and a lot of scholarship and other institutions, look at college like a race that must be completed in 4 years or else. They put too much emphasis on just getting through and not enough on getting any kind of experience or learning anything about yourself. The result is a bunch of people who got through college "on time", but never thought about what they were going to do about it afterwards. I might be in college a total of 5 years, but I'm expecting that it will do nothing but prepare me better for life after college. I could end up being wrong, but that's what I think.

[Reaganista]

If higher education were free more people would go which would devalue education even more. Bachelors in the US are already so devalued it would be ridiculous to give education to everyone for free. While it's nice to learn, part of the nature of the education system in the US is to separate people into certain groups for tasks. Example: You don't go to college to work at McDonalds. You go to college for many many years to be a doctor. Why overeducate people at such a tremendous cost? Some people do need to be dishwashers and waiters and so on.
there's no such thing as overeducation

[Smokey D]

But there is such a thing as opportunity cost.

/controversial

[descendents1]

I'm on full ride for national merit the hispanic thing was more a draw at Cornell, at ASU everyone is hispanic anyways.

Do you go to ASU eh?

ASU gives me leftover scholarship money that I apply for excessively so I'm taking $10,000 to the bank this year, after $3,000 wasn't enough last year.

[Misanthropic]

having to pay that much for education is just sick...

over here, the only thing you have to pay is about $140 a year (does not include living in a dorm however). being a student, you get about $600 a month in subsidies (my rent right is about $400 a month). and you also get a lot of other benefits when studying, like one warm meal a day for less than half the price of a normal restaurant and ridiculously cheap access to gym and other sports. as for books, you won't need to buy any, there are "student libraries" which can be used for free, that contain all necessary litterature. if you're smart about your economy and work three months in the summer, you won't have to take one single loan while studying. and your future doesn't depend on how rich your parents are, either.

[Smokey D]

All universities have extensive libraries (except, apparently, ones in Greece), most of them have supplementary facilities like gyms and stuff and most on-campus food is cheaper than elsewhere.

And it should be pointed out that even if the student is not paying, somebody (ie, the taxpayer) is, so 'free education' is actually 'education with a displaced payment scheme'. Of course, education may (and probably does) have benefits that exceed the cost incurred to the taxpayer, so I'm not opposed to its provision, within limits.

[bradc1988]

It's cheaper to join a regular gym than it is to join Sydney Universities gym and the food is a rip off. Even with the Unions getting fees they were useless.

[Smokey D]

Haha, lame for you guys. The gym here is pretty cheap and campus food is reasonable, if some what poor quality.

[ringworm]

I don't trust the government to run colleges at all, that's why college is such a better environment than high school.

this

higher education should be the parent/childs responsibility


unless you want the gvnt to be in control of every desicion you make in life, which isnt exactly applealing to most in here due to the amount of distrust/hate, they have for the gvnt being in their business in other issues

the more you invite them into your life the more they will take

[-1up!-]

Haha, lame for you guys. The gym here is pretty cheap and campus food is reasonable, if some what poor quality.

On-campus food is not really cheap here either (Université de Montréal) and pretty much average quality, but I admit I have visited maybe 1/10 of the university's grounds so far, in one year. Anyway it's Montreal so there's a ton of places to eat right outside the university grounds.

[Knifeboy]

I don't trust the government to run colleges at all, that's why college is such a better environment than high school.

Just because the government pays for it, it doesn't mean that the government will run it.. Our universities aren't government run

There's alot of competition here between universities, ensuring quality

[Permanent Solution]

there's no such thing as overeducation
You don't need to go to college to work on an assembly line, or work at Mcdonalds, etc.

Call it whatever you will.
Do you go to ASU eh?

ASU gives me leftover scholarship money that I apply for excessively so I'm taking $10,000 to the bank this year, after $3,000 wasn't enough last year.
ASU is one of the few school I think is excellent about funding for students. I don't know anyone here not on some sort of scholarship, whether need or merit based.

[WhoDidTheElf]

There are some ways to get around the huge costs of college. One is taking a bunch of AP classes in highschool to take out some credits. Another one, that I'm presonally using, is to ask the college about sport classes/activities you've been taking. Like I've been taking Tae Kwon Do for 10 years and Hwa Rang Do for 2 years, and asked my UNI about having those added as credits...managed to pull 15 credits out of my *** for those. Saved me $2000.00

Another method is going to a JC/CC before going to a UNI. 13$/unit < 350$/unit (SJU)

Edit: And Personally I wouldn't want the gov to take over the HE. Fund students but not the schools. Government money always has strings attached.

[Mr. Ron]

What do you guys think of athletes getting scholarships just because they can throw/kick/dribble a ball decently?

[ringworm]

i think school should be about school, not sports

[WhoDidTheElf]

I'm kinda in the middle on it. I don't think they should get scholarships, but I don't think that the time they put into the sports should go un-noticed. I think there should be some form of reward such as credits/units given to their name instead of a scholarship. This way it's like giving the athlete money except not really, and the scholarship can go towards another student.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Athletes need education as much as anyone else, considering 99% of them will be out of a job by the time they're 30.

[2muchket!]

I much prefer College/Uni being free for all but standards and entry being harder so it really is only for the best students and not people doing ****ing media. This may encourage also more people to go into trades as this country is crying out more tradesman.

[WhoDidTheElf]

Edit: To Splat.

But, hopefully they'll have made enough to retire on. Assuming they made it to the pro's.

I much prefer College/Uni being free for all but standards and entry being harder so it really is only for the best students and not people doing ****ing media. This may encourage also more people to go into trades as this country is crying out more tradesman.

What's the big degree that every one gets in england? Communications?

And also if you make it harder to get in, you'd only end up educating the ones that are already smart. On top of that, wouldn't most of the really bright students want to do something other than a trade which, and I use this word lightly, usually pay low wages?

[Permanent Solution]

I think the whole point is to educate smart people.

Why do you educate stupid people? That's like giving meat to a vegetarian in hopes that they'll change and eat it only even worse because stupidity can not be changed for the most part by the time you're at the college level.

[Dave de Sylvia]

People who graduate high school aren't stupid.

[Permanent Solution]

They can be.

[dei]

People who graduate high school aren't stupid.

I'm stupid.

[WhoDidTheElf]

I think the whole point is to educate smart people.

Why do you educate stupid people? That's like giving meat to a vegetarian in hopes that they'll change and eat it only even worse because stupidity can not be changed for the most part by the time you're at the college level.

Well the thing is, a lot of people do so poorly in HS because they hate it, and don't want to do it. College, on the other hand, is on your own time, and completely different from HS. You can chose your schedule and your own study.

And then the whole "educate the population for a better community!!" deal too.

I mean, personally IDC if the masses go to a uni. It's their own damn fault for failing at life then.

Also, instead of giving someone welfare money, how about giving them money for school instead?

People who graduate high school aren't stupid.

Depends on what stupid is. Lack of common sense then yeah.

[Permanent Solution]

Well the thing is, a lot of people do so poorly in HS because they hate it, and don't want to do it. College on the other hand is on your own time, and completely different from HS. You can chose your schedule and your own study.

And then also the whole "educate the population for a better community on the whole!!"

I mean personally IDC if the masses go to a uni. It's their own damn fault for failing at life then.

Instead of giving someone welfare money, how about giving them money for school instead?

So you're saying we should tell people they don't have to do things unless they don't want to? Moreover that we should even reward them for it? That's cute, but too idealistic.

I am all for educating the masses but tbh if high schools did their jobs right a high school education would be plenty enough for the masses.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Depends on what stupid is. Lack of common sense then yeah.
I meant the kind that pertains to academic achievement.

[WhoDidTheElf]

So you're saying we should tell people they don't have to do things unless they don't want to? Moreover that we should even reward them for it? That's cute, but too idealistic.

Not exactly, I'm saying that highschools don't really give kids a view of how college would be.

But people just don't give a **** and end up being failures at life anyways.

I am all for educating the masses but tbh if high schools did their jobs right a high school education would be plenty enough for the masses.

I agree. The top part of my responce was more of a...idealistic view on it not really my own view.

[Permanent Solution]

Not exactly, I'm saying that highschools don't really give kids a view of how college would be.

But people just don't give a **** and end up being failures at life anyways.



I agree. The top part of my responce was more of a...idealistic view on it not really my own view.
Yeah but in all fairness high school is more representative of real life. In real life you do get punished for coming to work late and you do get kicked out for doing stupid things. Real life is harsher than high school in many ways. The only real difference is most jobs won't require work outside of the work day.

Yeah I could definitely tell it was idealistic :p

[Akira]

I am not entirely opposed to athletes getting money, but the scholarships they get are often too big.
And think how many athletes get accepted into and get scholarships for college, then just go and keep just high enough grades to play and don't actually contribute anything to the school academically. I don't like the idea of people like that getting money that could be going to people who actually are there to prepare themselves for a career.

[Reaganista]

Why do you educate stupid people?
why do you feed hungry people
But there is such a thing as opportunity cost.

/controversial
i agree with opportunity cost and disagree with your insinuation

[Permanent Solution]

why do you feed hungry people

You feed hungry people because they will die without food.

Totally invalid point.

People don't die of stupidity. (usually)

[Smokey D]

i agree with opportunity cost and disagree with your insinuation

An example of what can happen when education is easier than finding a job is what's going on in France -- there are many thousands of people with incredibly high levels of education that nonetheless can not/refuse to find jobs because the state will pay for them so long as their studying.

[Dr Hooch]

What's the big degree that every one gets in england? Communications?

It used to be "Sociology" but nowadays It's 80% of subjects that end in "Studies"

"America Studies" etc.

[GreyHam]

i always wondered what american studies would actually get you...

apparantly, its a years placement in the states and probably, in time, a US visa.

great........

[Reaganista]

An example of what can happen when education is easier than finding a job is what's going on in France -- there are many thousands of people with incredibly high levels of education that nonetheless can not/refuse to find jobs because the state will pay for them so long as their studying.
um i can think of like 160 countries that would love to have that problem

[WhoDidTheElf]

i always wondered what american studies would actually get you...

apparantly, its a years placement in the states and probably, in time, a US visa.

great........

With the right classes you could land your self a job as a US History teacher, or that's what I would guess at least.

It used to be "Sociology" but nowadays It's 80% of subjects that end in "Studies"

"America Studies" etc.

Ah. A lot of business majors over there?

[JuggerKnoT]

college cost money and highschool is required by law go figure those americans would do that

[Waltz Profit]

http://webapps.jhu.edu/jhuniverse/information_about_hopkins/facts_and_statistics/tuition_and_financial_aid/undergraduate_tuition/index.cfm

._______________.

[Stoic]

Wow and why is that? (Greek students protesting for fees)

against fees and private universities actually. This might sound weird but it's really a huge story.

[WhoDidTheElf]

There not technically protesting against private schools and fees, just against the governments lack of funding to public schools.

Or at least that's what I gathered from this:

http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/jan1999/gre-j22.shtml

[Smokey D]

um i can think of like 160 countries that would love to have that problem

Hey man, don't strawman.

[Reaganista]

ok i wont

[Smokey D]

By which I mean, even if 160 countries would want to be in a position where they'd be able to stay within the state-funded education system it doesn't make, in itself, free education a good idea.

[Reaganista]

no it's good because having an educated population is good

the struggle that the majority of humanity is going through to get to france's position only indicates that many other people understand this too

[Smokey D]

no it's good because having an educated population is good


Good for what? Insofar as conclusions can be drawn from one country, it doesn't appear to be particularly good for employment.

the struggle that the majority of humanity is going through to get to france's position only indicates that many other people understand this too

Not really. It indicates people want to be educated.

[Reaganista]

Good for what? Insofar as conclusions can be drawn from one country, it doesn't appear to be particularly good for employment.
good for all of the things that education is good for
Not really. It indicates people want to be educated.
and

[Smokey D]

good for all of the things that education is good for

Not employment.

and

So you have to actually outline what education is good for and why the opportunity cost of education doesn't exist.

[Reaganista]

Not employment.
sure if we can accept your anecdotal evidence
So you have to actually outline what education is good for
that's a ridiculously herculean and also pointless task since you already know what education is good for
and why the opportunity cost of education doesn't exist.
because it's better than the alternative of being uneducated

[Smokey D]

that's a ridiculously herculean and also pointless task since you already know what education is good for

Diminishing marginal returns > your argument.

because it's better than the alternative of being uneducated

Better for what?

sure if we can accept your anecdotal evidence

I can only say what I've been told.

[Reaganista]

Diminishing marginal returns > your argument.

maybe in terms of ridiculously high levels of vertical proliferation of education
Better for what?
better for adapting to technological change better for having a high supply of highly educated people better for arts and cultural products better for not leaving the next einstein sweeping floors better for democracy better for attracting high-value industry foriegn investment better for fostering a culture of learning etc etc
I can only say what I've been told.
that seems like it would be a disadvantageous quality

[Smokey D]

maybe in terms of ridiculously high levels of vertical proliferation of education

Or when you have 40% of the population taking degrees that don't give training. Or a similar number of people who remain outside the workforce because they have education commitments.


better for adapting to technological change better for having a high supply of highly educated people better for arts and cultural products better for not leaving the next einstein sweeping floors better for democracy better for attracting high-value industry foriegn investment better for fostering a culture of learning etc etc

Yes, but diminishing marginal returns and opportunity cost still apply.


that seems like it would be a disadvantageous quality

[Reaganista]

Or when you have 40% of the population taking degrees that don't give training. Or a similar number of people who remain outside the workforce because they have education commitments.
no mostly just what i said
Yes, but diminishing marginal returns and opportunity cost still apply.
yeah so it doesn't diminish the returns to 0

[Smokey D]

Not much does.

But it isn't unfeasible that it would diminish returns to below the opportunity cost.

[Reaganista]

ya but in this case it doesn't

[Smokey D]

Why not?

[Reaganista]

i already went through that

[Smokey D]

You just said that there were lots of benefits. That doesn't mean opportunity cost doesn't come in.

[Reaganista]

yeah there's lots of benefits to education and little to no benefits to ignorance ffs man

[Smokey D]

There are benefits to foregoing formal education.

[Elmo McCheese]

Wow, it took me like 5 of these threads to realize that I compulsively clicked PNWI at the top instead of GD again.

[Reaganista]

There are benefits to foregoing formal education.
which are outweighed by the tremendous costs of ignorance

[Smokey D]

Pfft, take your value judgments elsewhere.

Also, Bill Gates says you're wrong.

[Reaganista]

Pfft, take your value judgments elsewhere.

no
Also, Bill Gates says you're wrong
ya but not really

[Smokey D]

For your claim that the cost of ignorance is higher than any other opportunity cost, we have to acknowledge the tautological claim that education is good because it is good.

Which is stupid.

[Reaganista]

i already demonstrated why it was good

[Smokey D]

But not why it has no opportunity cost.

[Reaganista]

it's not that it has no opportunity cost it's just not practical for a person to know everything worth knowing given that we only live around 80 years
if we lived a few million years on average then sure people would run out of things worth knowing which they didn't know

[Smokey D]

So what you're saying is that there is an opportunity cost.

[Reaganista]

i never said it didn't, just that it was negligible you were the one putting words in my mouth

[Smokey D]

You haven't shown why it's so negligible that the state should provide free education indefinitely.

[Reaganista]

ya but i have

[Smokey D]

No, if there was no reasonable opportunity cost, every rational actor would continue to educate themselves to the exclusion of everything else including earning a living or paying taxes. The state couldn't pay for free education in such a world.

[Reaganista]

if there was no opportunity cost

[Danish]

Fully public post-secondary education and skilled trades training programs are good for the economy!

[Knifeboy]

It sure is.. Just look at Denmark

[Smokey D]

Fully public post-secondary education and skilled trades training programs are good for the economy!

It can be. Nothing is absolute in economics.


if there was no opportunity cost

So there is an opportunity cost?

[Reaganista]

asked and answered

[Smokey D]

First you say there isn't one. Then you say there is, but it's negligible. Then you say that is large enough to affect behavior.

[Reaganista]

actually you were the one who decided i said there isnt one

[IbanezArtist]

I think all high achieving students in high school who choose to go to college and cannot afford to do so should be able to recieve tuition assistance or waivers, because if they can't make it into school, you're wasting possible brilliance!

Just take some of that unnecessary military spending and fund libraries.

[Ollie The Drumming Legend]

theres also the obvious argument of where is this money going to come from, raised taxes (noone would agree to that) or diverted from somewhere else (somewhere probably with a higher need of funding)

Most European countries have free university education, at least for those who are able, as far as I know. The UK had it free until the mid 1990s, and now you get special student loans to cover tuition and maintenance (even though they don't anywhere near cover that for most people even those who are not all that well-off); this money comes from the government, from taxes, so people would agree to it and do. What people, quite rightly, object to, by and large, are where the government wastes money or fails to provide something worthwhile with their taxes.

[Danish]

It sure is.. Just look at Denmark

Indeed! Denmark has the best labour market performance in the world, even better than the "American job machine". But unlike the American system, where labour market performance has excelled largely on the backs of workers, the Danish system maintains the best living and working standards in the world

[GreyHam]

Most European countries have free university education, at least for those who are able, as far as I know. The UK had it free until the mid 1990s, and now you get special student loans to cover tuition and maintenance (even though they don't anywhere near cover that for most people even those who are not all that well-off); this money comes from the government, from taxes, so people would agree to it and do. What people, quite rightly, object to, by and large, are where the government wastes money or fails to provide something worthwhile with their taxes.

you said it though, they are loans. with interest. so they EARN money for the government (good few thousand pounds interest per student...its a lot of money)

[Hababi]

Most European countries have free university education, at least for those who are able, as far as I know.

For those who qualify. Maybe I'm wrong, and I haven't read the thread much lately, but so far as I know, education is essentially free for those who qualify, but if you don't qualify (and this is oft connected to who has privelage), then you're basically screwed.

If you make education free and completely open, it devalues it. If everyone gets bachelors degrees, then they're worthless.

If you make it free to those who score high enough, then you'd better hope your progeny scores high enough.

[Iskandar]

If you make it free to those who score high enough, then you'd better hope your progeny scores high enough.Same as it is now ... if you don't meet the requirements, you don't get in ...

[Hababi]

Same as it is now ... if you don't meet the requirements, you don't get in ...

It'd be even more strict, though. The Pittsburgh area is a pretty good microchasm of the broader academic system:

If you score in the top 5%, you might get into CMU.
If you score in the top 15-20%, you might get into Pitt (better than CMU anyway)
If you score below that, there's still a good bet you'll get into one of the public state schools, Slippery Rock, California University of PA, etc. you have to be a REAL dunce to get turned down by them

The problem is that you would basically eliminate option 3.

[Dr Hooch]

so you're saying that the problem with our system is that rich stupid children don't get degrees?

as nice as that'd be it really doesn't work like that

Some courses ask for the equivalent of like DDE and lower (UK system; A-E, then a U which is like 'we don't acknowledge you have the qualification' and can't count towards anything, so basically a real fail as opposed to a 'did bad' fail)

If you can't get DDE, with good attendance and a small amount of work, you couldn't have gotten into the sixth form anyway.

[Hababi]

so you're saying that the problem with our system is that rich stupid children don't get degrees?

Now you know that's not what I'm saying :p

In a perfect system, economic status wouldn't influence college availability. But no system is perfect. Inferior income leads to growing up in an inferior school district with inferior opportunities, and thus an inferior grasp of essentials needed to succeed in college. It's unfortunate but true.

[Ollie The Drumming Legend]

For those who qualify. Maybe I'm wrong, and I haven't read the thread much lately, but so far as I know, education is essentially free for those who qualify, but if you don't qualify (and this is oft connected to who has privelage), then you're basically screwed.

If you make education free and completely open, it devalues it. If everyone gets bachelors degrees, then they're worthless.

If you make it free to those who score high enough, then you'd better hope your progeny scores high enough.

For a start not all bachelors degrees are the same. (if) I complete my Oxford degree and get a good grade at the end, like a 2:1 or 1st class, you can bet any amount you like that it will be worth more educationally and in terms of future employment (and other) prospects than, say, foot studies at Uni of West of England.

Make it free from economic costs but not free from academic requirements, simple. in fact, UK universities at least are done by academic stipulations, so having lots of money or a daddy who is an alumnus (ex-student) there can't get you a place directly. However, the cost of university puts people off and the benefits in terms of education prior to university entry give an advantage to richer people, to a degree. Nonetheless, it is not the sort of thing you can fairly solve by positively discriminating in favour of poorer people, i.e. against those who have had a better education and have also worked hard to succeed... that would be wholly unfair, so nobody suggest it.

In any case, you don't have to pay back the loan until you've finished the degree and are earning over £15000 a year.

The problem with devaluing degrees is a real problem in the UK though I feel, as the government has a retarded objective to get 50% of kids into university, which obviously has simply meant that new courses with less educational and employment value and lower entry requirements (grades from school) are created. As the government has done nothing successful to increase applications from able people from poorer backgrounds, this has simply benefitted stupid middle class people (of which there were far too many at my sixth form i.e. junior and senior years at high school for the Americans among us :p). Which is silly.

A better objective for them IMO would be to increase it so that over 50% of people have to do some sort of post-school education, be it a degree at a later date, part time while they work through the Open University or something, vocational training or just something that interests them. That would have a far greater benefit to society both as a whole and for the individuals involved, and also cost less. What do y'all think of this as an idea?

[Smokey D]

Indeed! Denmark has the best labour market performance in the world, even better than the "American job machine". But unlike the American system, where labour market performance has excelled largely on the backs of workers, the Danish system maintains the best living and working standards in the world

What's the capital labour ration in Denmark?

[Futue te Ipsum]

A better objective for them IMO would be to increase it so that over 50% of people have to do some sort of post-school education, be it a degree at a later date, part time while they work through the Open University or something, vocational training or just something that interests them. That would have a far greater benefit to society both as a whole and for the individuals involved, and also cost less. What do y'all think of this as an idea?you just misunderstood what the government proposed and then suggested they introduce what they did actually propose. that's kinda funny.

I still think it's silly. They should get rid of most courses and give the money to med students to spend on beer and holidays.

[Reaganista]

so you're saying that the problem with our system is that rich stupid children don't get degrees?
um rich kids dont go to state schools

[Dr Hooch]

um rich kids dont go to state schools

OVer here they go to good schools regardless of whether or not they're private

[Reaganista]

over here 'regardless of whether or not they're private' is a nonsensical statement

[Dr Hooch]

over here 'regardless of whether or not they're private' is a nonsensical statement

haha

there we go then i guess

[Danish]

What's the capital labour ration in Denmark?

What? :confused:

[Smokey D]

The amount of physical capital per person is indicative of the productivity per person, usually much more so than the amount of human capital per person. So if Denmark's super productive, I would expect a high capital labour ratio, and was wondering whether you knew what it was.

[Knifeboy]

Maybe this has some meaning for you : http://tinyurl.com/2u7u63
K/L is capital/labour ratio in denmark...

[Smokey D]

I think that is pretty illustrative of the point.

[Reaganista]

what is y

[Smokey D]

Real GDP.

Which implies Y/L is productivity per worker.

[Knifeboy]

and K/Y is capital-output ratio.. whatever that means

[Smokey D]

And haha, I just saw the mistake. Sorry Danish, I meant ratio, not ration.

[Mr. Ron]

Yeah I saw "ration" and you lost me. :^p

[Det_Nosnip]

What should the government's philosophy be toward college?


That it's good? :confused:


Should it provide more funding and more grants for students to attend?
No, the defense budget is really hurtin' right now...:p

Should it provide college, for free, to high achieving students?
Yes.

Some have even suggested paying college students for high achievement. What do you think?

We already do...it's called granting a stipend.

[Danish]

I think that is pretty illustrative of the point.

What was the point? I don't speak in economic jargon.

[Smokey D]

As capital per worker goes up, output per worker goes up.

[Iskandar]

As capital per worker goes up, output per worker goes up.So what implications does this have?

[Smokey D]

Potentially that governments should invest in capital over education, though I don't know how far I'd take that.

[deathscreamingsheep]

i do politics and philosophy, its about 8 contact hours a week and the rest is free reading. does that cost 1050 quid a year to put on? nope, but as you rightly said medicine costs a lot more than that

Does it change your opinion when I say that tuition fees have gone up to £3000 + for people starting university this year and are projected to rise to £6000 per annum.

I think that students on low income families who have the ability to get into university should recieve financial help with their course and also grants to help living costs. Also, financial incentives should be provided for courses like medicine etc to attract high achievers of all backgrounds. Although that is basically what is already happening.

[Dr Hooch]

Low interest loans, not grants!

[GreyHam]

erm


people in low incomce families in the uk already do get grants alongside the standard student loan (my best mate gets the maximum possible loan alongside £3000 thats his, a lovely gift from uncle...elizabeth)

i know tuition fees in the UK are rising but theyre still nothing compared to the US, and the universities that charge the maximum amount allowed are the prestigious ones that can get away with it

[Futue te Ipsum]

Also, financial incentives should be provided for courses like medicine etc to attract high achievers of all backgrounds. Although that is basically what is already happening.What, like £100k per year wages for GPs? :p

Those studying medicine, law, economics etc at top unis there really isn't an economic issue. I can afford to pay for my accommodation in central london (which costs far more than my tuition fees) because I know when I have to pay this money back I'll be earning a fair bit.

It's only really a nuisance after you graduate.

[Smokey D]

Interest free loans are pretty good.

[nowhesingsnowhesobs]

Potentially that governments should invest in capital over education, though I don't know how far I'd take that.
um what?

[Knifeboy]

Potentially that governments should invest in capital over education, though I don't know how far I'd take that.

I'm not really getting what you're saying, are you drawing the conclusion that Denmark is doing bad?

[Smokey D]

um what?

If the economy is all your concerned with, then it behooves the government to increase investment in capital, as opposed to, say, education grants etc.

But this ignores a) the non economic benefits of education, and b) that no economy can be purely capital based. Hence why I said 'I don't know how far I'd take it'.


I'm not really getting what you're saying, are you drawing the conclusion that Denmark is doing bad?

Nah, i was just pointing out that capital has at least as big an an impact on economic output and productivity as education.

[Against Miik!]

Throwing more money at schools at all levels, has never proved beneficial. What we need to do, as citizens, not as minions of our government, is hold universities more accountable for the money they do have. My school built a new 40 million dollar student center last year that was completely unnecessary. Nobody complained about the old one. It wasn't insulated with toxic chemicals. It was a great building. The school claimed the center was built with private funding, so it didn't matter. But it did matter. They could have worked to raise 40 million to keep the art program going or pay teachers better keep the 6 sports they cut. But no. Wouldn't want to that. Those don't look as good on a brochure as a new student center.

The government can't even run an efficient mail system. Why would we trust them to become more involved in something as important as education?

[Knifeboy]

The government can't even run an efficient mail system. Why would we trust them to become more involved in something as important as education?

Your government can't even run an efficient mail system.. My government managed to make one of the best mail systems in the world

[Against Miik!]

Your government can't even run an efficient mail system.. My government managed to make one of the best mail systems in the world

Fair enough. But its not my government. They haven't done anything for me.

[Danish]

Throwing more money at schools at all levels, has never proved beneficial. What we need to do, as citizens, not as minions of our government, is hold universities more accountable for the money they do have. My school built a new 40 million dollar student center last year that was completely unnecessary. Nobody complained about the old one. It wasn't insulated with toxic chemicals. It was a great building. The school claimed the center was built with private funding, so it didn't matter. But it did matter. They could have worked to raise 40 million to keep the art program going or pay teachers better keep the 6 sports they cut. But no. Wouldn't want to that. Those don't look as good on a brochure as a new student center.

The government can't even run an efficient mail system. Why would we trust them to become more involved in something as important as education?

Government isn't the problem; lack of public funding for universities is. It is a product of neoliberal public policy measures: tax cuts and privatization. Universities have been encouraged to "look to the private sector" to make up for budget shortfalls, leading to more private influence on campus, more contracting out of services, and extensive pressure to increase enrollment numbers, especially in professional programs like law and nursing. We've also seen a dramatic rise in the number of private colleges, as is evidenced by their extensive advertising.

All of this results in a steady decline in both the quality of education and public access to it. Governments run highly efficient and valuable services for their citizens. Keep in mind that public services and public ownership have value beyond the economic realm.

[lfantwister]

Governments run highly efficient and valuable services

almost as much as private!

[Iskandar]

almost as much as private!Yeah, but public.:)

[Danish]

almost as much as private!

Generally, it's true. No pesky stockowners hustling exploited labour value out of workers (well, not nearly to the extent).

[lfantwister]

Generally, it's true. No pesky stockowners hustling exploited labour value out of workers (well, not nearly to the extent).
None of that crazy incentive stuff to expedite innovation and efficacy

[Iskandar]

None of that crazy incentive stuff to expedite innovation and efficacyGovernments have the incentive to be re-elected. They're answerable to the people.

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

Federal and state grants and loans and financial aide from the college

[Knifeboy]

None of that crazy incentive stuff to expedite innovation and efficacy

If set up properly (Like in Denmark) public services face the constant threat of being privatized if theey do not innovate and stay efficient

[lfantwister]

Governments have the incentive to be re-elected. They're answerable to the people.

the entire government or at least not in america anyway is not elected; its largely made up of appointed officials who have absolutely no incentive to expedite the bureaucracy

If set up properly (Like in Denmark) public services face the constant threat of being privatized if theey do not innovate and stay efficienti like this idea

[Danish]

None of that crazy incentive stuff to expedite innovation and efficacy

Without decades of massive public spending on "defense", there would have been considerably less innovation.

[Smokey D]

The US government also employs private weapons companies, though.

[Danish]

The US government also employs private weapons companies, though.

lol Don't get ahead of yourself! If anyone on this board is anti-war and anti-military-industrial complex it's me. People here seem to think that there is no alternative to the status quo.

[Smokey D]

I'm just pointing out that private companies as well as public funding are part of the status quo, where as you guys seem to be ignoring one half of the equation each.

[Danish]

I'm just pointing out that private companies as well as public funding are part of the status quo, where as you guys seem to be ignoring one half of the equation each.

Well, the way it has worked (the military-industrial complex) is through state contracts with private corporations. Likewise, a lot of research done in state labs and universities is funded by the Pentagon and basically given to defense contractors.

So reality isn't one or the other; it's both. In a lot of ways defense spending has had a Keynesian effect on the US economy. But not all state spending is equal. Likewise, state spending isn't good for its own sake.

[Radiobass81]

Over here is not too bad. Public schools could be at most $1.5k a year, and the private ones should be around 8k, although scholarships are competitive.