Scientology in the UK...

[GreyHam]

quick question really, does anyone know if Scientology is recognised as a religion in the UK?

or what the criteria are for a 'following' to be recognised as a 'religion' are?

[Cocaine]

The Church's application for charity status in England and Wales was rejected in 1999.[37] In 2001, the Church of Scientology was exempted from value added tax on the basis that it is a religious organization.[2] Also in 2001, Church employees who are also part of its religious order were declared not subject to the ordinary wage laws.[2] The Royal Navy recognized Scientology as one of the religions that sailors must be allowed to practice.[2] The UK government has heavily criticized the Church in the past as documented in 1971 in the Foster Report but places no restrictions upon its activities.

In England, in a court case in 1984, it was held by Mr. Justice Latey in the High Court that "Scientology is both immoral and socially obnoxious. Mr. Kennedy did not exaggerate when he termed it 'pernicious'. In my judgement it is corrupt, sinister and dangerous. It is corrupt because it is based on lies and deceit and has as its real objective money and power for Mr. Hubbard, his wife and those close to him at the top. It is sinister because it indulges in infamous practices both to its adherents who do not toe the line unquestioningly and to those outside who criticise or oppose it. It is dangerous because it is out to capture people, especially children and impressionable young people, and indoctrinate and brainwash them so that they become the unquestioning captives and tools of the cult, withdrawn from ordinary thought, living and relationships with others." RE B AND G (MINORS) (CUSTODY)[1985] FLR 134. The case was upheld on appeal to the Court of Appeal.

copy/pasted cause im lazy

[Dr Hooch]

It's a pretty good example of why religions shouldn't be tax exempt.

[big80smullet]

I think that if your a religion, then it should be about helping people to better themselves, rather than making them buy expensive books and dvds so they can watch them and become weird. like tom cruise.

[Mr. Ron]

It's a pretty good example of why religions shouldn't be tax exempt.

Yup. The whole concept of them being tax exempt is ridiculous in the first place. They definitely have enough money.

[Cocaine]

I walked by the Scientology place in Toronto on Caribbana (it's a huge Caribbean themed city party thingy) and they were having some weird concert thing. It was basically a guy standing in front of a picture of L. Ron tapping on a 6 string bass for like 3 hours.

[Smokey D]

Yup. The whole concept of them being tax exempt is ridiculous in the first place. They definitely have enough money.

The idea is (not always fulfilled, of course) is that churches and religious institutions use most of their wealth to help the poor, set up charities etc. Theoretically, Churches basically do what the state does but without hte guns and stuff.

[Already_Taken]

Instead of guns it uses guilt.

[Smokey D]

Hey man, that's better than shooting someone.

[Already_Taken]

It's sad people that are smart enough to earn riches have to be manipulated in order to share for the benefit of feeding hungry people.

Thoughts like these make me ashamed to even be a human, because even I catch myself doing the things I hate the most sometimes.

[Mr. Ron]

The idea is (not always fulfilled, of course) is that churches and religious institutions use most of their wealth to help the poor, set up charities etc. Theoretically, Churches basically do what the state does but without hte guns and stuff.
Yeah but i don't really think an organization that makes millions and uses a large sum of that to move around pedos as a worthy candidate of tax exemption.

[FakePlasticTrees]

It's sad enough that people are stupid enough to believe in Scientology.

[Cocaine]

I read that they apparently broke the speed of light.

ISN'T L. RON AMAZING?!

[Already_Taken]

It's sad enough that people are stupid enough to believe in Scientology.

What if you died and it turned out they were the only ones who were right?

Don't act like you know, or you could be written off as being as stupid as your Scientologist counterparts.

[Cocaine]

I'm pretty sure they weren't right. I'm respectful to every religion and I refuse to call Scientology one, it's just so ridiculous in every way.

[Smokey D]

Yeah but i don't really think an organization that makes millions and uses a large sum of that to move around pedos as a worthy candidate of tax exemption.

What about when they use millions to feed the poor, provide education and set up hospitals?

[Mr. Ron]

"Whenever he was talking about being hard up he often used to say that he thought the easiest way to make money would be to start a religion."

L. Ron Hubbard

[Already_Taken]

I'm pretty sure they weren't right. I'm respectful to every religion and I refuse to call Scientology one, it's just so ridiculous in every way.

To you it is.

[Mr. Ron]

What about when they use millions to feed the poor, provide education and set up hospitals?

I don't think thats an excuse to not be taxed.

[Already_Taken]

I don't think thats an excuse to not be taxed.

What if it was your money? I think donations should all be tax exempt.

If you are trying to help the government foot the bill, and they still have the balls to tax you. Oh man.

[Mr. Ron]

What if it was your money? I think donations should all be tax exempt.

If you are trying to help the government foot the bill, and they still have the balls to tax you. Oh man.

Donations are one thing, but the majority of their money isnt gained that way.

[Cocaine]

To you it is.

And logic. The fact that the entire "religion" is carried by financial scandals, a boy-loving prophet and angry, clueless fanatics is enough to make me say this.

I went to the "Church" in Toronto and all they did was try to sell me books. They told me how amazing L Ron was, they had me do one of those ridiculous stress tests (which don't work, fyi) and then they yelled at me when my e-thetan readings were fine.

The fact that a celebrity has just reached the unthinkably high level in the religion should be enough proof. Let's see, now you've got a pretty well known, pretty well off guy essentially recruiting is equally well off friends to join. Makes sense financially doesn't it.

But you never know, maybe one day Xenu will escape, and then we'll all be doomed. I guess this is what I get for taking all these harmful, Scientology acknowledged mind altering drugs (ie: Advil).

[Already_Taken]

Donations are one thing, but the majority of their money isnt gained that way.

The majority of who's money?

I'm pretty sure most churches gain almost all of their money from donations.

And the sick people and education systems are donated money by the church.

So what would you like to tax in there?

edit: lol cocaine, I completely agree. I was just trying to play devil's advocate. :lol:

[Mr. Ron]

The majority of who's money?

I'm pretty sure most churches gain almost all of their money from donations.

And the sick people and education systems are donated money by the church.

So what would you like to tax in there?

edit: lol cocaine, I completely agree. I was just trying to play devil's advocate. :lol:

I'm not talking about churches, really. Religious organizations that aren't churches are tax exempt as well.

[Already_Taken]

I don't think thats an excuse to not be taxed.

I don't get it.

[Mr. Ron]

I don't get it.

I wasn't talking about churches exclusively.

[Dr Hooch]

Guys here's a great one how about charitable donations are tax exempt and other stuff isn't

Kinda like how it is for the rest of the population

What if you died and it turned out they were the only ones who were right?

Don't act like you know, or you could be written off as being as stupid as your Scientologist counterparts.

Hey, dude, seriously; even if we died and it turns out they were right, you'd still have been stupid to believe it.

[Smokey D]

I don't think thats an excuse to not be taxed.

Why the hell not? It's doing what the state does but without the problems associated with tax collection.

[lunchforthesky]

It's not recognised in the UK.

Scientology while stupid is no less stupid than Mormonism and the Watchtower Society. Hell even the Abrahmic religions.

[big80smullet]

I think a religion that has such ridiculous components as thetans, a spirit that was lown up and speed across the universe at more than the speed of light only enter my body sounds a bit silly. At least christianity, judaism, islam, etc make some sort of sense at least within themselves.

[Shadius]

At least christianity, judaism, islam, etc make some sort of sense at least within themselves.

They do?

Scientology isn't recognised here, although I've seen worryingly a few organisations and fuctions sponsodered by Scientology. I was in town the other month and this jazz band that was playing in the square was sponsored by them. Odd, but true.

[lunchforthesky]

I think a religion that has such ridiculous components as thetans, a spirit that was lown up and speed across the universe at more than the speed of light only enter my body sounds a bit silly. At least christianity, judaism, islam, etc make some sort of sense at least within themselves.

All religions make sense within themselves as they all have no regard for following what is logical or even sensible.

[redleaf]

this is an interesting documentary on scientology the bbc did (first link)
http://www.tv-links.co.uk/listings/9/5249

[Mr. Ron]

Why the hell not? It's doing what the state does but without the problems associated with tax collection.
Well the thing is most of its money doesn't even go to what you are thinking about.

[Smokey D]

Okay, you have to show that.

[Mr. Ron]

I'm not talking about individual churches. I'm talking about "THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH" for the most part. The whole structure of money.

[Smokey D]

So am I.

Prove that the majority of its money goes to relocating pedophilic priests.

[Mr. Ron]

So am I.

Prove that the majority of its money goes to relocating pedophilic priests.

I didn't say the majority of its money ONLY goes to moving around pedos, but a large amount did and still does, including settling various cases out of court.


I do agree, individual churches and the whole church community does great things for people, no debate there. I just think if you're going to use millions of that money to pay off people for problems you just want to ignore, then thats bad business practice, and that needs to be either rectified, or treated like any other business.

[Smokey D]

I didn't say the majority of its money ONLY goes to moving around pedos, but a large amount did and still does, including settling various cases out of court.

And lots of it goes towards charities, hospitals, paying priests (who, although you may disagree, provide a service a good proportion of the community finds essential, especially in less affluent areas than the US), restoring historically significant buildings and art etc.

Is there corruption in the Church? Undoubtedly. But you're using that to gloss the extremely significant public works undertaken by most religious institutions, which is not fair.

I just think if you're going to use millions of that money to pay off people for problems you just want to ignore, then thats bad business practice, and that needs to be either rectified, or treated like any other business.

Perhaps the Church's accounts should be audited and its money flows taxed after they are assessed where they're going.

[Mr. Ron]

And lots of it goes towards charities, hospitals, paying priests (who, although you may disagree, provide a service a good proportion of the community finds essential, especially in less affluent areas than the US), restoring historically significant buildings and art etc.

Is there corruption in the Church? Undoubtedly. But you're using that to gloss the extremely significant public works undertaken by most religious institutions, which is not fair.



Perhaps the Church's accounts should be audited and its money flows taxed after they are assessed where they're going.

yeah, what you're saying is making more sense, I concede my argument. :p

But I agree with the second part.

[RNR]

If people are going to go and consider Catholicism a relgion, they should consider scientology one. Both have crazy beliefs that can't possibly be proven true.

[GreyHam]

If people are going to go and consider Catholicism a relgion, they should consider scientology one. Both have crazy beliefs that can't possibly be proven true.

catholocism doesnt make people pay for it, ask its followers to sue anyone that criticises it, turn its back on friends and family who are critical, and in general encourage incredibly dubious practices.

if people want to follow a pseudoreligion then so be it, but last time i looked we had free speech laws that meant we can be critical of religions without the fear of legal action being brought against us

[Cocaine]

the main difference is catholicism as an institution has it's issues but the beliefs seem way more grounded as opposed to a 'religion' dependant entirely on institution and aliens and unfounded 'psychology'.

i mean it's a little more feasible to relate to some dude who turned water into wine (regardless of how you take it) then everyone on earth being used as some sort of cell for alien thetans.

[GreyHam]

and a lot of the messages in the bible (dont steal stuff, dont kill people, treat people as youd like to be treated etc) has some worth...im no expert on scientology but id bet my last penny that every last one of its teachings is designed to gain notoriety and make money

[lunchforthesky]

and a lot of the messages in the bible (dont steal stuff, dont kill people, treat people as youd like to be treated etc) has some worth...im no expert on scientology but id bet my last penny that every last one of its teachings is designed to gain notoriety and make money

Nah they are alot more tolerant on social issues than any mainstream religion.

[RNR]

the main difference is catholicism as an institution has it's issues but the beliefs seem way more grounded as opposed to a 'religion' dependant entirely on institution and aliens and unfounded 'psychology'.

i mean it's a little more feasible to relate to some dude who turned water into wine (regardless of how you take it) then everyone on earth being used as some sort of cell for alien thetans.

So because it seems more grounded to you, it's a religion and scientology isn't because it's less believable? Neither of them are believable at all. You can't make a comparisson based on believability when neither of them is the least bit feisable. In my mind, they're both equally ridiculus.

catholocism doesnt make people pay for it, ask its followers to sue anyone that criticises it, turn its back on friends and family who are critical, and in general encourage incredibly dubious practices.

if people want to follow a pseudoreligion then so be it, but last time i looked we had free speech laws that meant we can be critical of religions without the fear of legal action being brought against us

Since when does financial practice determine whether or not something is a religion or not? And last time I checked, a lot of versions of Christianity had tithes and used the money for questionable purposes (mormonism). Does that make them greedy psuedo-religions?

[GreyHam]

yup, pretty much

[DiesIrae]

We'll ask Tom Cruise.

[Cocaine]

Nah they are alot more tolerant on social issues than any mainstream religion.

well, except their ridiculous guidelines on what they consider to be harmful, mind altering substances and their latent but apparent homophobia (ie: claiming homosexuality is a metal disorder).

[Eliminator]

uk sounds good

scientology sounds logical

combine them i mean whats wrong with that?

[Dr Hooch]

and a lot of the messages in the bible (dont steal stuff, dont kill people, treat people as youd like to be treated etc) has some worth...im no expert on scientology but id bet my last penny that every last one of its teachings is designed to gain notoriety and make money

The bible is a horrific document of incest, genocide and green eyed monsters and any morals anyone could possibly take from it are purely coincedental

[lunchforthesky]

well, except their ridiculous guidelines on what they consider to be harmful, mind altering substances and their latent but apparent homophobia (ie: claiming homosexuality is a metal disorder).

I thought they were tolerant of homosexuality?

[RIP Ian Curtis]

I've never quite seen the point in stopping it being a mental disorder I mean keeping it on the books as a mental disorder lends more weight to the "it's not a choice" arguement. Mind you, "disorder" implies the need for treatment...

[Dave de Sylvia]

the main difference is catholicism as an institution has it's issues but the beliefs seem way more grounded as opposed to a 'religion' dependant entirely on institution and aliens and unfounded 'psychology'.

i mean it's a little more feasible to relate to some dude who turned water into wine (regardless of how you take it) then everyone on earth being used as some sort of cell for alien thetans.
Well a lot of minor religious movements have outlandish beliefs, that's one of the reasons Scientology will never become anything more than a cult. Catholicism (or rather Christianity) isn't really any more "grounded," it's just designed to appeal to a wider demographic.

[GreyHam]

The bible is a horrific document of incest, genocide and green eyed monsters and any morals anyone could possibly take from it are purely coincedental in my opinion

fix'd

[Cocaine]

I thought they were tolerant of homosexuality?

I dont think they have an actual stance, but L. Ron said it was a mental disorder then backtracked like crazy when people had a problem with it.

[lunchforthesky]

I dont think they have an actual stance, but L. Ron said it was a mental disorder then backtracked like crazy when people had a problem with it.

Sounds pretty likely.

[Dr Hooch]

fix'd

What?

Even the "thou shalt not kill" in the bible only counts towards other jews

Please explain to me how you can form better morals from reading a bible than you can from responding to basic human instincts

[Smokey D]

Human instincts are pretty shitty things to go by for morality.

[GreyHam]

Even the "thou shalt not kill" in the bible only counts towards other jews



Luke 10:25-37 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
[NIV at IBS] [International Bible Society] [NIV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

The Parable of the Good Samaritan
25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[a]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[b]"

28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

29But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

30In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

36"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"

37The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

you lie

[ChodaBoy]

"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
(I cant remember, lets see what he says).

"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
(Oh that one...)

Followed by a long story about a basic scenario. Isnt this situation something a liar would do? I've seen numerous people do similar things before

[GreyHam]

you clearly missed the point of the long story with a basic scenario...

[Dr Hooch]

I was talking about 10 commandments

jesus is much better but still says "any man who wants to enter paradise, must be my disciple" and then a different time says "any man who wants to be my disciple, he must cast off his mother and his father and his wife and his children and follow only me"

unoit so don't make me find the verses

[Reaganista]

ya but when jesus said something post-enlightenment people like he was being literal
and when he says something we dont like he was being metaphorical or only talking to people who lived back then or he's been misquoted

[Oriah]

To you it is.

Hahahahahaha... No, to everyone who isn't an idiot.

[GreyHam]

to be fair, the vast majority of what jesus is meant to have said is metaphorical, or ambiguous at best

[Dr Hooch]

Who picks which is which

[GreyHam]

the individual

not the church

i might get something different from the bible than you, or others, but surely something that provokes thought and discussion has more worth

[Dr Hooch]

No more worth than any other books and i know plenty that are better written and more relevant to our society today

[GreyHam]

yes, but are they as widely published and read?

im well with you there, there ARE a lot of books that can teach a helluva lot more than the bible can. but people are institutionalised to listen to the bible, and chances are thats not going to change anytime soon, so trying to encourage people to find the most progressive and useful information in the bibles a handy dandy thing to be doing

and, its still better than scientology...bibles cost anywhere between a fiver and 20 quid, which is about 30 seconds of scientology brainwashing...sorry, auditing...

[Cocaine]

Dianetics is one of the (if not the) most frequently translated books ever.

[GreyHam]

im sure it is, as the 'church' of scientology tries to sink its tendrils into more unsuspecting victims...

it still doesnt have the social influence of the bible

[Reaganista]

social influence doesn't give the text itself merit or value

[Smokey D]

the individual

not the church

i might get something different from the bible than you, or others, but surely something that provokes thought and discussion has more worth

You're far too po-mo for religion.

[GreyHam]

and where would this forum be without one person to play devils advocate against everyone else in one thread...

still dont get why that makes me pomo

[Dr Hooch]

No but you always seem to be so far in favour of everything that you'd say A Modest Proposal had "some good points"

[Smokey D]

and where would this forum be without one person to play devils advocate against everyone else in one thread...

still dont get why that makes me pomo

This makes you po-mo.



i might get something different from the bible than you, or others, but surely something that provokes thought and discussion has more worth

Religion is about universal truths. You're saying 'well, if we have a discussion about it, someone's bound to come up with something interesting'.

Hence, you're po-mo.

[-1up!-]

Guys... what's po-mo?

[Smokey D]

Post modern.

[GreyHam]

you say it like its a gypsy curse....

[Smokey D]

No, I was just pointing out that religion, in almost every case and virtually by definition, cannot be a post-modern institution.

[GreyHam]

aaah, then how can i be po-mo?

im a greyhamist....always have been, always will be...

[Smokey D]

Because you're emphasizing individual opinions over universal truth.

[GreyHam]

but...but...but...

:upset:

whatever

[JollyRoger24]

WHAT The Hell Is Scientology!!!? What Do They Believe In!!?

[pedro durruti]

Stress test baloney sandwiches, that's what they believe in. Everyday after school last year I'd be transferring trains, and they had a whole row of this science fiction nonsense! They believe in magical particles floating around us ****ing our insides and corrupting our youth.
Because you're emphasizing individual opinions over universal truth.
But isn't the 'universal truth' of the church a product of a longstanding individual opinion and nothing more?

[Smokey D]

Maybe, but that's not what it says and not what religions about.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being post modern. I'm just saying that (western) religion is not founded on the principle that all ideas have equal merit. It explicitly says that some (ie, their own) ideas are better than everyone else's and that some others will lead to eternal torment.

[Futue te Ipsum]

In a most loving way, of course.