Mastering the click

[Retarded Chipple]

I hear alot of "you need to be able to play on, behind and ahead of the click." Naturally I play on the click (where I make it disappear) but I know that being able to play behind or ahead of time is important as it creates a different feel.

My question(s), can anyone help me with playing on, behind and ahead of the click? How do you go about it? Say if I played a simple 8th note groove, bass on 1 & 3, snare on 2 & 4 what would I do? What element of the beat would I place behind or ahead? Do I play just the snare behind/ahead, the bass, just the hats, everything or what?
Also, how do you actually do it? I always imagine kinda flamming against the pulse in either direction to give it the different feel.

Some exercises to get me started and a little more confident with this kinda thing would be great as well as some explanations/examples/genres how the placement of the beat creates a different feel...


Thanks :)

[Josiah]

Pretty much you got it.

You want to flam against the front (to be ahead) and against the back (to be behind). It's tricky and takes some work. I'd say practice with just your kick and snare only, no hats.

Or even just on the pad for more clarity at first.

Another method for achieving this is to keep your hats going even (on the beat) and flamming against them either way with your back beat.

[TTTSNB]

I'm terrible at doing this to the click, but I know in a live band setting, I think of playing ahead or behind as a kind of feeling, to play ahead, I make myself feel slightly rushed, behind, I just relax a bit.

[Retarded Chipple]

Cool.

So playing on the back end of the pulse gives a kinda lazy feel and playing ahead gives a rushing, energetic kinda feel?

How do you know when to use them? What genres do you use each feel in? Punk, pop, metal is on the click, right? Where would you hear the others?

[TTTSNB]

Cool.

So playing on the back end of the pulse gives a kinda lazy feel and playing ahead gives a rushing, energetic kinda feel?

How do you know when to use them? What genres do you use each feel in? Punk, pop, metal is on the click, right?
Yeah, that's pretty much it. For me, it's mostly intuitive, but I would say basically anything that is high energy to begin with calls for a more rushed, on top feel, whereas anything with more groove, so to speak, calls for a little more behind. Anything in between, try to be right on the beat.

[DrumIntoTheNight]

Hip Hop uses a lot of dragging, IIRC.

Great topic, I was wondering about this the other day, I'll definately try this tomorrow morning.

[Sunshine]

The thread title looked WAY too close to "Mastering the clit" [Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back, anyone?] for comfort ><

And I do believe that playing off the click is very much used in reggae and funk, especially playing behind it.

[Retarded Chipple]

The thread title looked WAY too close to "Mastering the clit" [Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back, anyone?] for comfort ><

And I do believe that playing off the click is very much used in reggae and funk, especially playing behind it.


Haha, you dirty lesbian! :p

The other title option was "click control"....maybe I shoulda gone with that...?



Thanks for your help though :)





EDIT: Say "click control" out loud and it sound very, very much like "clit control"

Ok, enough of the clits already!!!

[Sunshine]

Hahahahaha, there's no winning.
Like I have a friend, his name is Clint.

...

Yeah.

[Josiah]

Chipple.. when you use these skills once you have earned them, is up to you.

However, the faster the tempo, the harder it is to pull off. You'll never pull this off in punk or metal. Well not never, but if you could, you'd be a high end pro. Very. VERY few drummers can pull out feel at those kind of tempos. Gene Holgan and Vinnie might be the only 2 that really can do it well.


Bop tends to be rushed, Blues tends to have the backbeat laid back, it gives it that loppy feel.

Rock, at least 'heavy' rock, tends to drop the 1 slightly late. Think RATM, Brad does it perfect with them. It's a major reason it sounds so heavy.

One could say jazz/swing should have a 'semi rushed' feel depending on the tune, though again your skill Vs. tempo will be an issue. Just to swing well at high tempos is impressive, to be able to alter the feel is even more so.

That's another thing as well. Practicing Swung or Straight note values at given tempos. This will give you a much firmer understanding of where the note values land, and how you can manipulate them.
Furthermore by practicing ALL the note values at varying tempos will also do this. The difference between 7's and 32nd's at 100bpm is very small. But the different between rushing or dragging at 100 bpm is even smaller.
Get the drift?

[Jacob2187]

major props for the rage reference josiah

[Det_Nosnip]

How do you know when to use them? What genres do you use each feel in? Punk, pop, metal is on the click, right? Where would you hear the others?

Actually, bad punk is on the click. Good punk is slightly ahead of the beat...listen to how e.g. Josh Freese plays. Metal's across the board...alot of the tech stuff is on the beat (because the musicians are too busy cramming a bunch of notes in to worry themselves over things like "groove" or "feel,"), doom metal is often a bit behind the beat for the aforementioned heaviness, and thrash will sometimes be slightly ahead of the beat, probably harkening to its punk roots.

The reason why alot of rock/metal players play exclusively on the beat is because they don't know how to do anything else, quite honestly...:rolleyes:

[FockerTheLopper]

I'll give advice from Gadd. He said just try to be on with the click always and think of the feeling you want to get, it'll come out. My teacher said that nobody is perfect(in terms of time) he remembers seeing Dennis Chambers and after one song he was like "Wow I screwed up the time bad on that one." I think you should just try to be %100 of the time and the feel will come from the heart not from the way you play to the click.

[Det_Nosnip]

Hmm.

Ok.

Sorry, but Gadd is lying to you. Steve Gadd has made a living for many years as a studio musician. I'm sure that there were a couple million instances in which a producer or bandleader asked Gadd to play a little ahead or behind the beat, and Gadd gladly obliged. Why? Because he is a professional musician. It might be that it is so ingrained into him that he doesn't have to actively think about it, but the effect is the same and I'm sure he made a point about learning how to play that way.

[FockerTheLopper]

Hmm.

Ok.

Sorry, but Gadd is lying to you. Steve Gadd has made a living for many years as a studio musician. I'm sure that there were a couple million instances in which a producer or bandleader asked Gadd to play a little ahead or behind the beat, and Gadd gladly obliged. Why? Because he is a professional musician. It might be that it is so ingrained into him that he doesn't have to actively think about it, but the effect is the same and I'm sure he made a point about learning how to play that way.

Its not about the mechanics that give music feel, if it was you would be able to program machines to play ahead and behind the beat and give music life.

[AndyEdwardsMusic.com]

Try not to listen to it and just play....then see if you have sped up or slowed down.

If this is the case your internal timing might need some work....

[billdrum]

Lots of good discussion and responses here...thanks all (except the clit references, lol).

If you have to think about the click so much, or the click stresses you out or keeps you from being able to feel a good groove, then you've got some more work to do. I agree with Andy's statement about your internal clock. IMO, your practice sessions with a metronome should be geared toward freeing yourself from a click, not relying on it, which means developing your internal click. Then when someone turns one on, its no big deal and you can play whatever feel you need over the top of it.

[Retarded Chipple]

Well, I got the idea to learn how to do it because I've read so many times from various sources things like: "time can be interpreted, bent and a good drummer should be able to play on, behind or ahead, whilst remaining with the click or given tempo."

This made me realise that I should perhaps pay more attention to the click and time feels. I often sit at the kit with the click and just jam. I've noticed that I don't concentrate on burying the click, playing ahead etc. I don't chase the click or anything, I play exactly the same way I would if I was playing without it....I kinda accompany it, you know? My playing doesn't change when I have the click there...

Was just thinking that in order to correctly nail the feel of the music I'm playing, I should know how and where to place the notes...

[Det_Nosnip]

Yeah. Although it's good to practice that way and be able to just..."let go" with a click playing and stay in time, I've noticed that this approach doesn't tend to sound as good as you'd think once you plug in the mics. You have to really focus and feel every beat in order to get things grooving...which is why even the most basic of patterns can be "difficult" to experienced players who are trying for a specific feel.

[FockerTheLopper]

Yes, play with feel. Feeling isn't mechanical meaning that it cannot be analyzed. Learning to play ahead and behind the beat may be good for some things but for feel no. That comes from within. Just get control over the instrument and feeling comes

[Det_Nosnip]

Hmm.

Well, you're wrong.

Sorry.

For the love of God, man...listen to some music. People play ahead and behind the beat all of the time as part of a way of creating a certain feel...and mastery over this is essential for becoming a professional drummer. Maybe some people do it internally and just "feel" it, but most have practiced and honed their skills to be what they are.

Your assertion that feeling cannot be analyzed couldn't be a bigger pile of ****. Have you never been to a professional drum clinic? The entire FOCUS of Stanton Moore's clinics is on playing an inbetween swung FEEL, and how to create that FEEL.

[Senseless Apprentice]

Very interesting topic. Something I have not looked into yet.

[FockerTheLopper]

Hmm.

Well, you're wrong.

Sorry.

For the love of God, man...listen to some music. People play ahead and behind the beat all of the time as part of a way of creating a certain feel...and mastery over this is essential for becoming a professional drummer. Maybe some people do it internally and just "feel" it, but most have practiced and honed their skills to be what they are.

Your assertion that feeling cannot be analyzed couldn't be a bigger pile of ****. Have you never been to a professional drum clinic? The entire FOCUS of Stanton Moore's clinics is on playing an inbetween swung FEEL, and how to create that FEEL.

I have, I've been to a Gadd clinic and he said something like "try to play on the click all the time. If you want a certain feel think of it and it will come out"
And you're throwing around the word feel like you don't know what it means... What is swing feel? Or should I say swing FEEL. What you're saying goes against the entire arguement. You're saying play behind or ahead of the beat and here you're rambling about some inbetween swing feel. Its a second line feel which you can't explain you need to listen to feel it. Same thing with clarinet and quater tones, anybody can tell you how they sound but you need to listen and feel it in order to play them.