Gas Prices and Sh!t

[TravisBarkerrules]

So, I am an American, and I know that a lot of these boards aren't but I guess some of the stuff I'm going to say you'll know about.

Here's the deal, "hurricane season" is on its way and if a hurricane hits the Gulf then our gas prices are nearly going to double. I know that its basically a American bitching about money and gas but seriously thats what the country is run by. As our gas production goes down and prices go up so severly that it is un affordable our countries economy is f'd.
I guess what my real point is that seriously why are we pumping all of our money into a war that the only end is going to be when everyone is dead. I think personally that we should start giving back to our communities and to our citizens rather than all these unneccesary expenses.

Does anyone agree with more or what?

I'm not trying to be a rich *** who doesn't understand democracy but seriously I see no reason to send a bunch of troops overseas to fight to control someother contry for like a week.

I am not all into politics, so I guess I dont know that much. Can someone stear me in the right direction?

[lfantwister]

Gas prices are just going to get higher, no matter what

and I'm going to get broker, because of that

[WhoDidTheElf]

Giving back to the community? Psh that's what welfare (Edit: not really but it wasn't ment to be serious anyways) is all about, and that thing is abused like a 9 year old alter boy.

[Dr Hooch]

It's funny because an American is complaining about the price of petrol! in a land where petrol is cheaper than bottled water!

[FakePlasticTrees]

I remember the days when gas cost forty cents a litre and twenty bucks was more than enough to fill my truck up.

[Illmatic]

It's funny because an American is complaining about the price of petrol! in a land where petrol is cheaper than bottled water!

ever bought "petrol" or a bottle of water in the United States? oh yeah didn't think so.

[Danger Bird]

It's interesting how mother nature balances out. We start wrecking **** with global warming, so the global warming creates hurricanes that devastate oil refineries. Coincidence?

[Dr Hooch]

ever bought "petrol" or a bottle of water in the United States? oh yeah didn't think so.

Well i've been with my dad when he has, yeah. and seriously, petrol is cheap in your country.

[AmericanWeiner]

do you drive 25 miles 2-4 times a day?

[Illmatic]

Well i've been with my dad when he has, yeah. and seriously, petrol is cheap in your country.

and where I live it costs almost 3 times as much as a bottle of water

[Akira]

Well, this thread was doomed from the start.

[Meatplow]

australia is pretty f*cked for petrol prices

it's seriously getting to a point where driving will become a rich man's luxury.

[Dr Hooch]

and where I live it costs almost 3 times as much as a bottle of water

Well then bottled water is pretty cheap too :P

how much a litre? I'm very sure we willl pay more than you.

[TojesDolan]

I remember when horses transported stuff.

Anyway, the key is in changing from Petrol to other energy sources, but then again there are so many interests involved it's idiotic.

Good going.

[[Nightbreak]]

I work at a Petrol station. 95.9 for the standard, 95 octane, unleaded petrol.

That's about $1.80 folks, for ONE LITRE.

[Dr Hooch]

;14773992']I work at a Petrol station. 95.9 for the standard, 95 octane, unleaded petrol.

That's about $1.80 folks, for ONE LITRE.

Wow... That's pretty close to what we pay.

Is that the highest you pay or do we just have more reserves than you or somehting?

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

Sigh...

Gas prices are high because pretty much everything that could have gone wrong went wrong. A whole bunch of refineries aren't producing because a lot of them are undergoing routine maintenance at the same time. If the companies tried to co-ordinate it so they did them at different times and didn't affect the market so much, they'd violate anti-trust laws

Also, several others have sustained damage (one just blew a few weeks ago), and they're still rebuilding some off-shore platforms from Katrina. If the government wasn't so gung-ho about not building any more platforms or refineries, we wouldn't be in this mess

At this point, it's still economical to use petroleum, and probably will be so for the next several decades. Now, whether that petoleum is pumped out of the ground as crude oil, extracted from coal or tarsands, or created out of miscellaneous organic material is anybody's guess.

All this talk about shifting away from oil to hydrogen or biodiesel is a giant pipe dream. From extraction to use, petroleum is the most energy-efficient fuel source available, and will continue to be so for a long time. When it isn't, some enterprising person will come up with a better idea and make a whole lot of money on it. That's how capitalism works

[Illmatic]

Well then bottled water is pretty cheap too :P

how much a litre? I'm very sure we willl pay more than you.

about 3.50 per gallon...I forgot gas is bought by liter in England

[griftadan]

it can be argued that further instability in the middle east also make prices rise, an us leaving could pontentially result in just that.

[Illmatic]

also, oil companies do have the upper hand due to a total lack of competition. they can put prices as high as they please because they know that so many people rely on gas-powered transportation.

[griftadan]

also, oil companies do have the upper hand due to a total lack of competition. they can put prices as high as they please because they know that so many people rely on gas-powered transportation.

ok so you just don't have any idea how the petroleum market works.

[Illmatic]

ok so you just don't have any idea how the petroleum market works.

I guess I don't.

educate me.

[griftadan]

it isn't monopolized by any extent, there are different buyers and sellers at every level of production (extraction, transportation, refinement, retail), none of which have enough market share to really effect the prices individually.

high prices recently come primarily from increased demand from india and china, as well as ongoing instability in the middle east,a dn of course the refining and distribution problems that came after katrina. there is also about 45 cents on average that is tacked on to the price per gallon in taxes.

[Illmatic]

it isn't monopolized by any extent, there are different buyers and sellers at every level of production (extraction, transportation, refinement, retail), none of which have enough market share to really effect the prices individually.

high prices recently come primarily from increased demand from india and china, as well as ongoing instability in the middle east,a dn of course the refining and distribution problems that came after katrina. there is also about 45 cents on average that is tacked on to the price per gallon in taxes.

sounds about right. hasn't all of this come about recently, though? I remember reading that the 1970's gas shortage in the U.S. actually was caused by the oil companies holding out.

[griftadan]

not enless you're into conspiracies, it was caused by OPEC reducing production in response to western interference in the middle east.

[Reaganista]

opec isnt a conspiracy?

It's funny because an American is complaining about the price of petrol! in a land where petrol is cheaper than bottled water!

WHAT THE **** IS PETROL THIS THREAD IS ABOUT GAS PRICES

[griftadan]

opec isnt a conspiracy?

well i guess not sense no one is trying to cover it up

[Reaganista]

since when did conspiracies have to be secret

[Charlie Manson]

Australia $4.05/gal (may 24)
United Kingdom $7.15/gal (may 5)
United States $3.10/gal (may 14 )
Venezuela $0.14/gal (September 29 2006)

I think Americans have no right to bitch at teh UK'ers. Maybe you should find some Venezuelians to bitch at.

[Akira]

WHAT THE **** IS PETROL THIS THREAD IS ABOUT GAS PRICES

Don't spam. :rolleyes:

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

Australia $4.05/gal (may 24)
United Kingdom $7.15/gal (may 5)
United States $3.10/gal (may 14 )
Venezuela $0.14/gal (September 29 2006)

I think Americans have no right to bitch at teh UK'ers. Maybe you should find some Venezuelians to bitch at.

People in the UK don't drive as much. You could probably get about anywhere in Britain within 6 hours. My brother is coming to visit us for a few weeks, and he's driving 7 hours. He's not even close to being far away in comparison to the rest of the country

[Akira]

Yeah, but that's out fault. America is way too spread out. That's what I hate about living in the suburbs, everything is far away.
I want to live in a city like New York and just walk everywhere.

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

There's too much space for everyone to live in cities

Urban sprawl will work itself out. Children whose parents moved out of the cities will move back into them once they get on their own. Suburbs are too boring

[Akira]

Yeah they are. To be fair, they are good to grow up in, but I can't see myself living in one as until, not until I start a family at least.

[TheDarkHorse]

Does anyone agree with more or what?
for starters, i dont exactly get you.

I'm not trying to be a rich *** who doesn't understand democracy but seriously I see no reason to send a bunch of troops overseas to fight to control someother contry for like a week.

I am not all into politics, so I guess I dont know that much. Can someone stear me in the right direction?
there isn't as direct of a correlation between the war and gas prices that you think.

[GreyHam]

People in the UK don't drive as much. You could probably get about anywhere in Britain within 6 hours. My brother is coming to visit us for a few weeks, and he's driving 7 hours. He's not even close to being far away in comparison to the rest of the country

thats a gross generalisation really, and im not sure what bearing it should have on petrol prices

most of my mates drive less BECAUSE petrol is so meffing expensive

[Dr Hooch]

opec isnt a conspiracy?



WHAT THE **** IS PETROL THIS THREAD IS ABOUT GAS PRICES

I didn't think methane prices were that bad at the moment.

People in the UK don't drive as much. You could probably get about anywhere in Britain within 6 hours. My brother is coming to visit us for a few weeks, and he's driving 7 hours. He's not even close to being far away in comparison to the rest of the country

Just for a second I was about to type "couldn't he take the train" and then I remembered that the answer would almost certaintly be "no, he physically couldn't"

Anyway our petrol is so expensive because of tax.

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

thats a gross generalisation really, and im not sure what bearing it should have on petrol prices

most of my mates drive less BECAUSE petrol is so meffing expensive

You don't have to drive as much, so your higher gas prices have less of an effect as they would if Americans were paying $7 a gallon, particularly on trucking

Just for a second I was about to type "couldn't he take the train" and then I remembered that the answer would almost certaintly be "no, he physically couldn't"

Ain't no train that runs from Rochester to Buffalo to pick up my grandma, then down to the Philadelphia suburbs to my house, unless he wanted to go all the way through NYC or Cleveland

[griftadan]

since when did conspiracies have to be secret

usually theres some sort of cover up conotated

[[Nightbreak]]

Anyway our petrol is so expensive because of tax.

About 3/4 of the British petrol price is going direct to the Govt.

[Jharaski]

I also love how people think that it's all the gas companies fault. They only get to keep like 15% of their total sales before income tax=/ So like a 20 cent reduction per gallon in the states will fuxxor them up pretty good.

[TravisBarkerrules]

there isn't as direct of a correlation between the war and gas prices that you think.

I know this but what I am trying to say is why are we pumping all this money into a war with no end, instead of trying to help our people are going to get screwed if our gas goes up to like 6 bucks. I had no idea that gas was that expensive in the UK, another case of an oblivious American, what can you do.

[Akira]

I also love how people think that it's all the gas companies fault. They only get to keep like 15% of their total sales before income tax=/ So like a 20 cent reduction per gallon in the states will fuxxor them up pretty good.

I somehow doubt that, considering that they are currently turning profits bigger than any other corporation in history.

[griftadan]

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=xom

not really, they just do a considerable larger amount business. for example, the most succesful gas company (exxon mobile) has a profit margin of like 12%

[Akira]

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=xom

not really, they just do a considerable larger amount business. for example, the most succesful gas company (exxon mobile) has a profit margin of like 12%

And that 12% comes out to billions of dollars. In the fourth quarter of the 2005 fiscal year they made $10.7 billion dollars - the record for any U.S. company.

[WhoDidTheElf]

And that 12% comes out to billions of dollars. In the fourth quarter of the 2005 fiscal year they made $10.7 billion dollars - the record for any U.S. company.

It's not really because of huge profit margins, but just sheer amount of product moved.

[griftadan]

And that 12% comes out to billions of dollars. In the fourth quarter of the 2005 fiscal year they made $10.7 billion dollars - the record for any U.S. company.

well obviously if their profit margins are small they aren't really ripping us off that much

[Reaganista]

Don't spam. :rolleyes:

SHUT THE **** UP

usually theres some sort of cover up conotated
not if you dont have to cover it up

not really, they just do a considerable larger amount business. for example, the most succesful gas company (exxon mobile) has a profit margin of like 12%
ok so let's make it .12%

[Jharaski]

Making it 0.12%, essentially zero, would involve lowering the prices like 40 cents per gallon. People longing for the days of gas under 2 bucks are delirious.

[griftadan]

ok so let's make it .12%

how? or really, why?

[Tyrant21]

Making it 0.12%, essentially zero, would involve lowering the prices like 40 cents per gallon. People longing for the days of gas under 2 bucks are delirious.

it was under two bucks less then a year ago

[griftadan]

only because crude was like 20 dollars cheaper a barrel

[Lydisk]

gas prices are way too low everywhere in the world... they should be doubled atleast IMO

[TravisBarkerrules]

Definantly...

[Woundweaver]

gas prices are way too low everywhere in the world... they should be doubled atleast IMO

I completely agree in principal, it might make people consider using a more economic vehicle than some rediculously thirsty four wheel drive THING...

However the downside to this is that the UK would get raped even more =p And i'd have to pay £20 to fill up my bike for about 120 miles... However as I have one of the most economic vehicles on the road, I think i'm entitled to a little hypocricy here...

[Reaganista]

Making it 0.12%, essentially zero, would involve lowering the prices like 40 cents per gallon. People longing for the days of gas under 2 bucks are delirious.
$400 million a year in profits is not essentially zero or anywhere near zero

how?
by legislation...

or really, why?
because we don't want to pay that much

[lfantwister]

by legislation...
legislate the profit margin? That's a slipper slope..

[Reaganista]

i don't believe in slipper slopes

[Smokey D]

legislate the profit margin? That's a slipper slope..

Governments frequently regulate pricing, usually of natural monopolies.

[Jharaski]

it was under two bucks less then a year ago

And now those gas companies are paying higher prices. Drill in Alaska I say, it will solve our issues with OPEC.

$400 million a year in profits is not essentially zero or anywhere near zero

0.12% is close enough to zero to round it off. That tiny difference (like .36 cents) only adds up to 400 mil when you have an entire country buying your product every week.

[Reaganista]

0.12% is close enough to zero to round it off.
no it's not

wtf are you stupid or something

[Smokey D]

0.12% is close enough to zero to round it off. That tiny difference (like .36 cents) only adds up to 400 mil when you have an entire country buying your product every week.

The point he's getting at is that when you have a product with such inelastic demand being traded in such vast quantities as petrol or gas or whatever then even a tiny margin like 0.12% represents extremely significant profits in absolute terms.

[Jharaski]

no it's not

wtf are you stupid or something


Yes it is, [EDIT - FOR A SINGLE GALLON OF GAS (sorry for not clarifying... even though it should have been obvious)]. Are you trying to tell me that 0.12% of 3 dollars is anything significant, WITHOUG taking into account that it will all add up to that aforementioned 400 million? My point, as Smokey nailed (but missed the small picture), was that for a SINGLE gallon of gas, profit margins of zero are close enough to that of 0.12% to just say that 0.12% might as well be zero. Seriously, it's 0.36 cents added onto a zero profit margin assuming three dollars per gallon. Is that really going to make a difference, especially compared to extremely simple estimation of 40 cents per gallon reduction? Remember, I'm talking about the small picture here - a single gallon of gas.

Stop being a troll, seriously. You used to be funny, and I could attest to that even when you said things against me, but now you're being kind of obnoxious.

[Smokey D]

I don't know why you're talking about the small picture. It's pretty much irrelevant.

[Hbp]

No, our petrol is high because of price gauging.

[Reaganista]

Yes it is, [EDIT - FOR A SINGLE GALLON OF GAS (sorry for not clarifying... even though it should have been obvious)]. Are you trying to tell me that 0.12% of 3 dollars is anything significant, WITHOUG taking into account that it will all add up to that aforementioned 400 million? My point, as Smokey nailed (but missed the small picture), was that for a SINGLE gallon of gas, profit margins of zero are close enough to that of 0.12% to just say that 0.12% might as well be zero. Seriously, it's 0.36 cents added onto a zero profit margin assuming three dollars per gallon. Is that really going to make a difference, especially compared to extremely simple estimation of 40 cents per gallon reduction? Remember, I'm talking about the small picture here - a single gallon of gas.

except they dont sell a single gallon of gas they sell billions of gallons of gas


Stop being a troll, seriously. You used to be funny, and I could attest to that even when you said things against me, but now you're being kind of obnoxious.
**** YOU

[Jharaski]

I don't know why you're talking about the small picture. It's pretty much irrelevant.

My point was missed entirely. It is very relevant to what I was trying to say, simply that for a 0.12% profit margin, a single gallon of gas would essentially cost the same as if there was no profit nor loss. The small picture is a single gallon of gas, which is what I was talking about in my

Making it 0.12%, essentially zero, would involve lowering the prices like 40 cents per gallon

That 40 cent drop is already just an estimate that is almost certainly off by quite a bit, so why can't we ignore that fraction of a cent? With the way gas prices fluctuate, no one would notice if gas prices permanently fell by that amount, except that there would be 5/10 and 6/10 instead of 9/10 tacked on the end of prices. That's why that 0.36 cents is so insignificant.

Sorry for getting this side discussion.

EDIT - I am in the hospital doped up on meds. I thought Smokee was advocating my point. My bad. I totally understand Tway's points, but they are not relevant to what I was saying.

[griftadan]

by legislation...

no specifically

because we don't want to pay that much

well that would probably only reduce the price by like 10 or 15 cents, thats all they really make per gallon.

[Swill_Merchant]

;14773992']I work at a Petrol station. 95.9 for the standard, 95 octane, unleaded petrol.

That's about $1.80 folks, for ONE LITRE.

Yeah, gas might be cheaper in America, but we have a shitty public transportation system. We rely on cars. So don't think that you have it worse. You can ride the Tram, Trolly, Bus, Train, Subway to more places than we (the U.S.) can. To get to the mall, I would have to change buses 4 times and it would take a total of 3 1/2 hours to get there. Hardly worth the 25 min car ride.

[CarnageFairy]

^QFT

USA - 3,718,695 sq mi

UK - 94,526 sq mi

You can fit almost 40 UK's into 1 USA (Due in large part to Alaska, but the point still stands). Many people that live in my area work in Baltimore, DC, and VA and have a daily commute of at least an hour. My dad, whose job involves lots of driving all around Maryland, puts over 1000 miles on his car a week on average.

The US is very dependant on our cars, and going from $25 to fill up my tank to $50 in the span of a year? Eesh.

[StrawberryFieldsForever]

Right now in Canada it costs about 1.20 per litre, which isnt that bad, but it's gonna get much worse. In a way even the U.S. has it better than us, because aside from the Toronto area, Canada is so spread out and cities are so few and far between that we need cars. Hell, the whole east coast from Boston to Washington is like on big friggin city for you guys.

[Smokey D]

My point was missed entirely. It is very relevant to what I was trying to say, simply that for a 0.12% profit margin, a single gallon of gas would essentially cost the same as if there was no profit nor loss. The small picture is a single gallon of gas, which is what I was talking about in my

Yeah, okay. I get that per gallon, the profit margin would fall to 0.12%. But why's that a bad thing, necessarily, given the size of the industry's absolute profits.

Aside from teh fact that they'd reduce supply if we told them how to price.

[Jharaski]

Yeah, okay. I get that per gallon, the profit margin would fall to 0.12%. But why's that a bad thing, necessarily, given the size of the industry's absolute profits.

Aside from teh fact that they'd reduce supply if we told them how to price.

I never said it was a bad thing. I was just saying, even if we could feasibly expect gas companies to slash their profits to near zero, we still would not have our old prices back. I want $1.50 gas again(basically what it was when I was a kid adjusted for inflation) but I know it won't happen, nor will we even see a 10 cent decrease that will pretty much decrease their profits by almost 25% (not fully 1/4, because less income = less tax)


Somewhere along the lines in this confusion, I was mistaken. I have trouble conveying my thoughts on the internets. :(

[Reaganista]

no specifically
you see the congress passes a law and then the executive enforces it

well that would probably only reduce the price by like 10 or 15 cents, thats all they really make per gallon.
you said they made 12 percent
have you now changed your story to something completely different?

My point was missed entirely. It is very relevant to what I was trying to say, simply that for a 0.12% profit margin, a single gallon of gas would essentially cost the same as if there was no profit nor loss.
except it would actually cost .12% more

[Jharaski]

except it would actually cost .12% more

Miniscule difference. Since we are already vastly overestimating exactly 12.0% profit on $2.999 gas, we're already off by more than those 0.36 cents(or should I say 0.35988 cents). That's why I chose to ignore it. Remember significant digits from chemistry?

Either way, the point I made was that a 0.12% profit margin won't lower gas prices as much as people would like them to. Even if we take into account that, it will be slightly HIGHER priced.

[Charlie Manson]

^QFT

USA - 3,718,695 sq mi

UK - 94,526 sq mi

You can fit almost 40 UK's into 1 USA (Due in large part to Alaska, but the point still stands). Many people that live in my area work in Baltimore, DC, and VA and have a daily commute of at least an hour. My dad, whose job involves lots of driving all around Maryland, puts over 1000 miles on his car a week on average.

The US is very dependant on our cars, and going from $25 to fill up my tank to $50 in the span of a year? Eesh.

That is largely irrevelent to the general population. Most personal vehicle activty is used driving around cities, or between cities less that are located adjacent to one another. How often does the average american take a car trip longer than 1000 miles?

I find I have little need travel more than 300km (about 190miles) away from my house for any purpose other than holidays or music tours... and i find it hard that the majority of Americans would need to travel further than that regularly.

[Jharaski]

That is largely irrevelent to the general population. Most personal vehicle activty is used driving around cities, or between cities less that are located adjacent to one another. How often does the average american take a car trip longer than 1000 miles?

I find I have little need travel more than 300km (about 190miles) away from my house for any purpose other than holidays or music tours... and i find it hard that the majority of Americans would need to travel further than that regularly.

A lot of people have long commutes. People often travel into big cities, getting abysmal fuel efficiency in the massive traffic jams that occur going into places like New York. It's barely 40 miles from my house, mostly highway, but it's like a 1.5 hour trip on the highway even with excessive speeding. After like 45 minutes you gotta knock it down to like 10 mph.

Because of the country's large size, things tend to be located far apart when it comes to dealing with things other than individual cities and such.

[Reaganista]

Miniscule difference.
$3 is a miniscule amount

[Charlie Manson]

A lot of people have long commutes.
That's the same in alot of countries, actually.



Because of the country's large size, things tend to be located far apart when it comes to dealing with things other than individual cities and such.
Things like what?

[ringworm]

I love gas arguments

Gas is the only thing that hasnt risen proportionatly with all other consumables in the past 20+ years


Look at education costs over the past years and compare the miniscule amount gas has inflated, then see if $3 bucks a gallon is too high, especially the way we consume it

[griftadan]

you see the congress passes a law and then the executive enforces it

more specifically as in what congress would specifically legislate

you said they made 12 percent
have you now changed your story to something completely different?

well i'm not sure but basically every information i've ever read has this to say

http://www.rrstar.com/assets/pdf/D174767526.PDF

they make a considerable amount off the gas station stores as well

[ringworm]

they make a considerable amount off the gas station stores as well
has anyone seen the recent trend of store owners that are either selling their store or ceasing to sell gas due to the low amount of money they actually make off the product?

some owners are doing it as a form of protest

[Reaganista]

more specifically as in what congress would specifically legislate

the profit margin


well i'm not sure but basically every information i've ever read has this to say

http://www.rrstar.com/assets/pdf/D174767526.PDF

they make a considerable amount off the gas station stores as well
pick one

[griftadan]

i'll take the latter because it's more recent, and i like the graphics.

so anyways, price controls?

[Reaganista]

i'll take the latter because it's more recent, and i like the graphics.


well that one appears to write everything up to cost so...


so anyways, price controls?
well they'd be profit controls more like

[griftadan]

so what increased taxes?

[Smokey D]

What about pricing regulations, so that price was made to equal average cost of production?

[griftadan]

so... no profit?

[Smokey D]

No economic profit, but costs in economic models include opportunity costs and dividends to shareholders etc, so the firm is actually making quite a large accounting profit.

Of course, it is quite difficult to assess opportunity costs, and I'm not familiar with the auditing that would be needed to enforce it, but theoretically it could be a good thing. In order to make any sort of profit at that point, oil companies would have to expand production, which could be good for the consumer. I don't know how much the price per barrel would go up though.

[griftadan]

seems like a serious discentive that would result in shortages, although i don't know much about that either. i'm assuming you mean theres still money to be made for everyone who participates in the produciton process in the form of wages.

honestly though, i think gas prices need to stay high inorder to provide a proper incentive for the use of alternatives.

[Smokey D]

seems like a serious discentive that would result in shortages, although i don't know much about that either.

I'm not sure if that's true. Monopolies, by their nature, produce at a point where MR > MC. That means they can expand supply to produce more revenues, and they would need to if the P=AC.

[Swill_Merchant]

has anyone seen the recent trend of store owners that are either selling their store or ceasing to sell gas due to the low amount of money they actually make off the product?

some owners are doing it as a form of protest


Small chains. The big franchise companies seem to still be floating along. Anyways, if they decide they want to try and make a healthy profit off of it, they will make less since people will drive asinine amounts to save $0.03 a gallon.
Buisnesses' don't have a large profit margin in general. So it shouldn't be suprising. It's a catch-22. You are most likey gonna loose money either way.

[ringworm]

since people will drive asinine amounts to save $0.03 a gallon.
that always cracks me up to hear the distance some are willing to drive for that? :)


here may be some useful links for those interested

http://www.factsonfuel.org/gasoline/index.html

tis one has some very un-useful but interesting facts on how much stuff like scope would be if it were sold per gal
http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/2005/03/oil_starts_its_.html

[griftadan]

I'm not sure if that's true. Monopolies, by their nature, produce at a point where MR > MC. That means they can expand supply to produce more revenues, and they would need to if the P=AC.

why are we talking about it as if the industry is monopolized?

[Jharaski]

$3 is a miniscule amount

What.

0.12% of 3 dollars is miniscule. Especially since it would cause gas prices to end in different fractions of numbers and therefor can be ignored.

Jesus Christ man.

edit to add


Things like what?


Cities.

[Reaganista]

gas prices already end in fractions of numbers

and $3 is less than .12% of 11 billion and we can therefore disregard it

[Smokey D]

why are we talking about it as if the industry is monopolized?

It's oligopolised, which means the few producers in the market possess some (but not exclusive) market power, which means price is above marginal cost of production. That's the same as a monopoly (though it's not as bad, because some price differentiation occurs) And when taken together, they are a monopoly.

Regulating every player in the industry doesn't hurt any single firm with respect to another.

[Jharaski]

gas prices already end in fractions of numbers

and $3 is less than .12% of 11 billion and we can therefore disregard it

Huh?

Gas always ends in 9/10 of a cent so a .36 cent difference can be ignored, and the profit margin would have to be fixed up by some other means if the profit margin MUST be 0.12%.

What are you getting at with the second bit. Individual gallon of gas compared to total profit or something? That doesn't work.

Yeah those 3 dollars are insignificant, but changing it will change the 11 billion. Changing the 0.12% will only result in a fraction of a cent/gallon difference, which really doesn't mean much for people who want to see changes like 500 times that.

So comparing price/unit with total profit is different from comparing prices/unit that are marginally different.

[Smokey D]

But .12% of $3 x 11 billion barrels is still a lot of money.

Why is the single per unit cost so important to you? It's the average cost and average revenue that matters.

[Jharaski]

Because that's what I was talking about at first before Tway had to go and be a jackass. I was merely trying to get the point across that that 0.12% is nothing compared to
a-what people want to see happen with gas prices
b-my estimate of prices under 0 profit
c-changes caused by the different income taxes

and thus can be ignored.

I don't want to argue this anymore. I feel any minute someone's gonna tell me to stfu for messing up the thread.

[Reaganista]

Gas always ends in 9/10 of a cent so a .36 cent difference can be ignored
no it can't
that would lead to millions of dollars being 'ignored'

[Jharaski]

no it can't
that would lead to millions of dollars being 'ignored'

I lied, one more post.

Yes it can be ignored. Either those millions will be made up somewhere else, or gas prices will end in .26 instead of .9, and I don't think it will be the latter.

[Reaganista]

Either those millions will be made up somewhere else

what

, or gas prices will end in .26 instead of .9, and I don't think it will be the latter.
um who cares if prices end in .26

[Jharaski]

what
Income taxes would change so it might be close.

um who cares if prices end in .26
It just won't happen, so a 0.12% profit margin will probably not happen either.

[Reaganista]

Income taxes would change so it might be close.

what

It just won't happen, so a 0.12% profit margin will probably not happen either.
weird prices are definitely the least of the reasons why it wouldnt happen

[Jharaski]

what


You can't increase a price by x% and say profit will increase by exactly x%.


weird prices are definitely the least of the reasons why it wouldnt happen

I mean, there'd need to be pretty exact circumstances for a set profit margin two decimal places. Prices would be one of them. Any of it COULD happen, so I didn't want to say it wouldn't, but it's not likely at all.

[griftadan]

No economic profit, but costs in economic models include opportunity costs and dividends to shareholders etc, so the firm is actually making quite a large accounting profit.

Of course, it is quite difficult to assess opportunity costs, and I'm not familiar with the auditing that would be needed to enforce it, but theoretically it could be a good thing. In order to make any sort of profit at that point, oil companies would have to expand production, which could be good for the consumer. I don't know how much the price per barrel would go up though.

at the retail and distribution level though, its pretty close to perfect competition. their margins are razor thin already, infact i've read stories of gas stations closing because the return wasn't worth the work. price controls could cause problems.

[Reaganista]

You can't increase a price by x% and say profit will increase by exactly x%.
ok


I mean, there'd need to be pretty exact circumstances for a set profit margin two decimal places. Prices would be one of them. Any of it COULD happen, so I didn't want to say it wouldn't, but it's not likely at all.
there'd have to be auditting

[Jharaski]

ok

So we're clear there right

there'd have to be auditting

Yeah yeah, but it's still gonna have to be pretty exact for it to end up at that.

[Reaganista]

who buys one gallon of gas

[Smokey D]

at the retail and distribution level though, its pretty close to perfect competition. their margins are razor thin already, infact i've read stories of gas stations closing because the return wasn't worth the work. price controls could cause problems.

You might be underestimating the ability of economists to predict a good output/price ratio.

Also, maybe we only regulate producers, allowing retailers to set prices in accordance with supply and demand.

[Jharaski]

who buys one gallon of gas

People with gasonline powered lawn mowers and such? :p Well it doesn't matter. Remember my original point was that the 0.12% is small enough to disregard, since there are bigger inaccuracies to worry about with my old estimation. Not that that "it's little so it doesn't matter." No, not at all. Of course it's a lot.

Besides, most people spend in the neighborhood of $2000* per year on gas, and that's an extra $2.40. Enough for a cheap pack of cigarettes maybe. Or one less sloppy blowjob in a back alley every few years.

I didn't expect it to go on this long.


*I could be wrong


edit to contribute to thread.

Also, maybe we only regulate producers, allowing retailers to set prices in accordance with supply and demand.

I like this, but surely there are unforseen problems with it.

[Reaganista]

is there a point buried anywhere in any of this

[Jharaski]

is there a point buried anywhere in any of this

more of any point you brought up

[Reaganista]

no that was an actual question

[Jharaski]

I'm pretty sure that I said yes.

After all I said there was more point than you presented. So unless you have a negative value of points, then I do have a point.

now gtfo

[griftadan]

You might be underestimating the ability of economists to predict a good output/price ratio.

Also, maybe we only regulate producers, allowing retailers to set prices in accordance with supply and demand.

at the same time though, if theres no profit theres no need to explore further sources of oil/refinement. so while demand will steadily increase, the ability for production to match it won't.

[MegaPhony]

[QUOTE=Jharaski;14800787]

Besides, most people spend in the neighborhood of $2000* per year on gas, and that's an extra $2.40. [QUOTE]

2.40 * Population of North America = Around 500 million dollars

[Reaganista]

I'm pretty sure that I said yes.

After all I said there was more point than you presented. So unless you have a negative value of points, then I do have a point.

now gtfo

ok let me explain something to you

when i say 'do you have a point'

that means 'what is your point'

now get with the having a point faster plz

[Jharaski]

[QUOTE=Jharaski;14800787]

Besides, most people spend in the neighborhood of $2000* per year on gas, and that's an extra $2.40. [QUOTE]

2.40 * Population of North America = Around 500 million dollars

Yeah but it doesn't make much of a difference to an individual consumer. Which is what I was kinda getting at before.


ok let me explain something to you

when i say 'do you have a point'

what means 'what is your point'

now get with the having a point faster plz


my point is that
a-to an individual consumer the difference is miniscule
b-it doesn't matter anyway because gas prices will not fall to a point where the profit margin is a measly 0.12%. To you or me it's a lot, but not to execs.

[Reaganista]

a-to an individual consumer the difference is miniscule
that's the whole reason for my picking such a low number
to a consumer it feels like very little to pay but still adds up to millions in profits for them

b-it doesn't matter anyway because gas prices will not fall to a point where the profit margin is a measly 0.12%. To you or me it's a lot, but not to execs.
it wouldn't be a matter of prices falling to that point as much as prices being imposed at that point

[Jharaski]

that's the whole reason for my picking such a low number
to a consumer it feels like very little to pay but still adds up to millions in profits for them

No you just said "well how about making it 0.12%" in response to "it IS 12%" but ok

it wouldn't be a matter of prices falling to that point as much as prices being imposed at that point

oh ok then impose them at a point where that fraction either stays at 9/10 or is rid of entirely. always round down to the nearest cent (or 9/10 cent).

[Reaganista]

No you just said "well how about making it 0.12%" in response to "it IS 12%" but ok

and...


oh ok then impose them at a point where that fraction either stays at 9/10 or is rid of entirely. always round down to the nearest cent (or 9/10 cent).
no
you finding a price aesthetically pleasing is completely irrelevant

[Jharaski]

and...

and nothing just helping you remember where 0.12% came from


no
you finding a price aesthetically pleasing is completely irrelevant

no it's not why do you think things are like always priced at 95 and 99 cents below an even amount. like 19.99.

[Reaganista]

and nothing just helping you remember where 0.12% came from
actually you were just telling me what i said
in context my cause for saying it is obviously what i said it was
this is a staggeringly stupid thing to argue about stop it

no it's not why do you think things are like always priced at 95 and 99 cents below an even amount. like 19.99.
to screw with people's heads
but who cares that wouldn't be necessary if the price was set

[ringworm]

who buys one gallon of gas
i see that ALL the time at the pumps, but i wont say who does it

[Jharaski]

actually you were just telling me what i said
in context my cause for saying it is obviously what i said it was
this is a staggeringly stupid thing to argue about stop it
oh ok so you were trying to make prices almost as low as possible for customers while gas companies can still make millions.

why not 0.012% then.


to screw with people's heads
but who cares that wouldn't be necessary if the price was set

k. but I think people like things the way they are with how prices end.

[Smokey D]

why not 0.012% then.

Why not? Prices shouldn't be high just because people are bad at maths or fractions are aesthetically unpleasing.

[Reaganista]

oh ok so you were trying to make prices almost as low as possible for customers while gas companies can still make millions.

why not 0.012% then.
because then i would've had to deal with 10x as many people complaining about ugly fractions

[Jharaski]

Why not? Prices shouldn't be high just because people are bad at maths or fractions are aesthetically unpleasing.

No no that was just troll food