Shock Rock

[Meatplow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW-h5q5-3Y8

I'll use this video as a worst case example.

It's an old story that many musicians/artists use shock appeal. Sex, violence, misogyny, and drug use are all rampant themes, and used in a context which can promote these things or make them seem humorous is something that can really ruffles people's feathers and deeply offend.

I myself am pro free speech and anti-censorship. Art is a medium of expression which people should never be berated for, controversial work that pushes the envelope does little more but stimulate thought IMO. Lots of parents have been worried over the decades because exposure to such materials can corrupt young minds. I agree with this to some degree, when black humor and strong ideology is involved children are far less likely to understand ambiguous meaning and how to reason. Adult media is for adults, parents who complain when they buy their young child an R-rated video game and discover the content i have no sympathy for. I believe if a child is raised with a good set of values as they get older they will be armed with a reasoning mind. Exposed to such media, they will formulate their own opinion and be able to understand appropriate action. That is the best gift a parent can give their child, not to take away their rights to listen to music that offends them personally but to allow them the freedom to understand different sides of life. The world is full of plenty of injustices that have nothing to do with music. Does shock rock create an expression of anti-social behavior in society, or is it anti-social behavior that causes expression through shock rock?

In this video El Duce actively promotes raping children and violence against women in a humorous light, much to the shock of Springer's audience. This is once again, an extreme example that makes many other acts look tame. The drama is in El Duce being confronted by a female gang-rape victim, who anyone watching can do little but feel sorry for. He is a disgusting and vile man, but it makes me question what kind of world nurtured someone like El Duce in the first place.

[Danger Bird]

1st amendment

[sexymuffin]

that woman went on this show for the sole purpose of putting down El Duce and making him look like a terrible person and a fool.

i don't feel bad for her that she was insulted about her being raped, what else was he going to do when confronted with her story? Tell her he's sorry for everything he's done? Go out of character and become and understanding person? She did it to herself.

[spitfirejunky]

He is a disgusting and vile man, but it makes me question what kind of world nurtured someone like El Duce in the first place.

A world where you can actually get paid to be disgusting and vile?

[Dave de Sylvia]

El Duce got hit by a train.

[Meatplow]

El Duce got hit by a train.

Good.

A world where you can actually get paid to be disgusting and vile?

I am trying to be semi-understanding of why he would perceive the world such a way. Maybe a lot of people ****ed him over when he was younger who knows, it happens.

i don't feel bad for her that she was insulted about her being raped, what else was he going to do when confronted with her story? Tell her he's sorry for everything he's done? Go out of character and become and understanding person? She did it to herself.

I think it's disgusting that the producers of the show set this up when what happened to her had nothing to do with the actions of El Duce. He is an asshole and a moron, but it was a set-up and i don't expect him to act any differently. She is not to blame. This is only an example of the type of acts i am talking about though not the full issue.

[sexymuffin]

why is she not to blame she went up and tried to tell everyone watching he was a horrible person.

that's quite a statement to make.

anyways jerry springer is all fake.

[Meatplow]

he isn't exactly a poster boy for moral good taste, it's more then easy to point out flaws in his character

[sexymuffin]

maybe if you believe women are equal to men.

[Meatplow]

are you saying you don't?

[Der Übermensch]

anyways jerry springer is all fake.
Not fake as much as screened. They purposefully get people who are batshit retarded, and also they will try and get them wound up before they go on stage.
It's like what an autobiographical novel is to literature.

[sexymuffin]

oh alright then

are you saying you don't?

can you objectively prove to me that they are?

[Meatplow]

can you objectively prove to me that they are?

nope i just wanted to clarify your ambiguous statement

for what its worth i do feel that everybody should have the right to live life and prosper without harassment

[italic zero]

i would like to live death

[sexymuffin]

nope i just wanted to clarify your ambiguous statement

for what its worth i do feel that everybody should have the right to live life and prosper without harassment

well if i believe women are unequal to men maybe it's a flaw in your character to suggest anything otherwise.

at least from my perspective.

[Meatplow]

well if i believe women are unequal to men maybe it's a flaw in your character to suggest anything otherwise.

at least from my perspective.

and if i believe women are equal to men it's a flaw in your character to suggest anything otherwise.

at least from my perspective. since theres no real objective view i am happy to disregard it

[Dave de Sylvia]

Did this discussion just get more intelligent?

[Amit]

life...

...is...

...suffering

//_-

fake edit: god damn it stop following me dave

[Reaganista]

well if i believe women are unequal to men maybe it's a flaw in your character to suggest anything otherwise.

at least from my perspective.

are you ****ing stupid or was that supposed to be funny

[Mr. Ron]

maybe if you believe women are equal to men.

I'm curious as to why you think that?

[PerpetualBurn]

That piece of footage is disgusting. Not because of what the guy says, but because of how it's put together.

All it has shown is that Jerry Springer's show and his audience have no interest in discussing the things El Duce said objectively and intellectually. It shows that they want to see a rape victim reduced to tears for entertainment.

I can't see much difference between El Duce's "art" and Jerry Springer's alleged entertainment. And if El Duce can serve to highlight this hypocrisy, then I think there actually is some merit to his work.

[Meatplow]

That piece of footage is disgusting. Not because of what the guy says, but because of how it's put together.

All it has shown is that Jerry Springer's show and his audience have no interest in discussing the things El Duce said objectively and intellectually. It shows that they want to see a rape victim reduced to tears for entertainment.

I can't see much difference between El Duce's "art" and Jerry Springer's alleged entertainment. And if El Duce can serve to highlight this hypocrisy, then I think there actually is some merit to his work.

I agree, but those weren't the issues i was trying to highlight here. I posted that video as an example of a shock rocker and how some people have extreme views against it. But yeah it is a pretty disgusting video that invites comment so i probably shouldn't have used it.

[peeted]

As many people have already pointed out the set up for this was pretty disgusting, and that woman couldn't really expect anything other than abuse for attacking someones beliefs like that.
But seriously, "you gotta start somewhere" that really was over the line, fair enough, its kinda funny, but not in front of a rape victim, i see no reason whatsoever for someone to say something like that.

[ringworm]

1st amendment
i dont see how a limit to speech can be percieved as oppression in extreme cases like this

and if you DO feel speech has no limits, than Imus should be back on the air and all fines be payed back to him and no apology should be needed, simple

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

Imus wasn't taken off the air for freedom of speech, he was taken off the air because sponsors and the network that broadcasted him decided they would rather not be associated with him.

[Der Übermensch]

Yeah... I personally think he should have remained on the air. Sure, it was a dumb thing for him to say, and I don't agree in the slightest with it, but why would you be listening to Imus in the first place if you didn't want to hear him be an asshole?
I can understand why sponsers might not want to be associated with him now however.

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

Yeah... I personally think he should have remained on the air. Sure, it was a dumb thing for him to say, and I don't agree in the slightest with it, but why would you be listening to Imus in the first place if you didn't want to hear him be an spatula?
I can understand why sponsers might not want to be associated with him now however.

My whole point is that it really isn't about whether or not what he said was "bad enough" to merit being taken off the air. It all boils down to money and image, and on top of no longer being as profitable to the networks, Imus had gotten them a whole lot of bad press. The networks could just as easily have fired him for wearing a I HATE GEORGE W BUSH tshirt if it thought the average viewer would take offence to the comment and half the country would lobby against it.

There are cases where censhorship should be imposed, but this was purely a case of the network deciding that his show no longer fit into their business plan. I agree with you completely that people who didn't want semi-offensive comments shouldn't have been watching his show (and they probably weren't, but by the time his comments had been blown out of proportion everybody who could possibly be offended had heard them 50 times), but the fact is that Imus's comments had the African-American AND feminist rights groups on his ***, and the network said "no thanks, we'd rather not lose half the country as viewers kthx" and sent him packing.

[Amit]

lol ringworm is just a racist asshole from the south no need to try and dignify his post with a response guys :')

[Der Übermensch]

It was more a response to ring than you...
I do feel Imus should have the legal right to be on the air - no fines, no apology - (which wasn't really the issue in the first place), its just the fact that no network wants to have him.

[Amit]

i agree completely with you

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

It was more a response to ring than you...
I do feel Imus should have the legal right to be on the air - no fines, no apology - (which wasn't really the issue in the first place), its just the fact that no network wants to have him.


Doesn't he? I pretty much tuned out by day 7 of the overblown scandal. I didn't think he'd been fined by anybody but the network.

[Der Übermensch]

I never payed attention to it at all... I'm the wrong person to ask... The whole buisness was just stupid as far as I was concerned...

[GreyHam]

im very much for the idea of free speech, but there does come a point where its more common decency not to say certain things to certain people, even if it shouldnt be enforced

[Meatplow]

im very much for the idea of free speech, but there does come a point where its more common decency not to say certain things to certain people, even if it shouldnt be enforced

Thats pretty much where i am coming from. But if it's someone's right to twist the knife whats to stop them?

[Der Übermensch]

But if it's someone's right to twist the knife whats to stop them?
The ability to find a platform to project from? As Don Imus demonstrated, go beyond a certain point, and you risk losing funding to continue.

Of course there are exceptions... Jerry Springer makes his living of the extremes.

[Meatplow]

I see what you mean.

[Reaganista]

the idea that the market should determine acceptable speech is absolutely horrible sometimes people need to be told things they really don't want to hear

[GreyHam]

such as???

[ringworm]

lol ringworm is just a racist asshole from the south no need to try and dignify his post with a response guys :')
yup, you sir have me pegged, wtg

im talking free speech, i have numerous times stated how i feel racism is only kept alive by people who profit from it and you lable me a racist?

but you're just trying to troll me anyways, and i obliged :p

and i wil refrain from the childish insults which you always seem to lower yourself to when someone says the truth

[PerpetualBurn]

such as???

Any truth that a large sector do not want to hear.

[GreyHam]

yes, like what?

[PerpetualBurn]

I'm just going to be stubborn because clearly the point doesn't need further illumination.

I'm not going to offer an example for you to hope its weak enough to attack that instead of the actual point.

[Der Übermensch]

the idea that the market should determine acceptable speech is absolutely horrible sometimes people need to be told things they really don't want to hear

It doesn't determine whats acceptable. It determines what speech will get a wide audience.

[Eliminator]

cannibal holocaust!

[UpperDecker]

cannibal holocaust!

Was that actually real?

[GreyHam]

I'm just going to be stubborn because clearly the point doesn't need further illumination.

I'm not going to offer an example for you to hope its weak enough to attack that instead of the actual point.

*sigh*

im not trying to attack anything... im curious

[Danger Bird]

1st amendment.

[Reaganista]

It doesn't determine whats acceptable. It determines what speech will get a wide audience.
no it determines what speech will have the means to have a wide audience

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

such as???



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIooBQm6S1M