ATTN: Cronium

[Der Übermensch]

This could go in the Christian thread maybe, but I specifcally want Croniun's response, as he's the only one I trust to give a qualified response.

So, I've been reading up a bit more on Calvinism, and I have a question for you.

Why should I bother a)Believing in God and b) Even bothering to try and be good? Why shouldnt I just live as a hedonistic libertine?
As far as I can tell, I may be part of the elect, or I might be the reprobate, but I can't know. And if I understand Unconditional Election correctly, it is completly unconnected to how I live my life.

"He is merciful in withdrawing and saving from this perdition those whom he, in his eternal and unchangeable counsel, has elected and chosen in Jesus Christ our Lord by his pure goodness, without any consideration of their works."

"Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto"

So I ask you, as a Calvinist, what possible reason or motive do I, as an unbeliever, have to convert and be faithful, if it won't help me? Anf for that matter, what possesses you to remain so, if it doesn't matter?

[spitfirejunky]

*Croniun. :)

[Smokey D]

The way I understand it, but I could be wrong, the elect will do good because they are elect.

And even the non-elect would be right to praise God. The argument being that we should be good people (insofar as it is possible to be good), praise God etc not because we're trying to get into heaven but because it's right.

I could be wrong though.

[Der Übermensch]

*Croniun. :)

Thanks... I realized that as soon as I hit post :(

unfortunate side effect of poor memory skills

The way I understand it, but I could be wrong, the elect will do good because they are elect.
I would guess, but I can find no reference to this, and the fact that it explicitly states being elected has nothing to do with if you will be good, let alone faithful, this seems to be wrong.

[Smokey D]

There is more than one strand of Calvinism, though.

A member of the elect, by virtue of grace, will do good actions. A reprobate can do no good, no matter how hard they try. I don't think the good and bad necessarily need to conform to our intuitions.

[AmericanWeiner]

the elect will desire to praise god and do good because they are elect.

if you do not desire it, then you are not elect.

God doesn't have to offer you reason to convert or believe. The elect will do so and the rest will burn.

[LittlePound]

It's been my experience that most would agree that God selected the elect on his foreknowledge of who would except him.
Romans 8:29a
29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son.....

That verse talks about God using his foreknowledge of the situation coinciding with his decision to elect. His election has nothing to do with works "for it is by grace you have been saved", but the ones that are elected are the ones that God knew would choose him. This really gets kind of hairy which is why theologians have debated it forever. You have people who off on one extreme and go into hypercalvinism which in the end kind of leads to Jesus' death being unimportant because any importance on mans personal obligation to choose is lost. Or the people of the other extreme who deny predestination period.
Most calvinists would agree that even though people were predestined, that doesn't negate mans' responsability to make a choice to surrender to Jesus. Once you've made the choice to surrender to Jesus "you are not your own for you were bought at a price" and now your works become proof of the new life in you. In other words, the good works and changes that come along with genuine salvation attest to the fact that you were elected. Even though works don't bring about the salvation, and God elected without consideration of your works (other than choosing Him i guess you could say), your works are there to show that you in fact one of the elect. If you don't have the changed heart then you weren't elected, or at least your conversion wasn't genuine at that time.

[Der Übermensch]

LP, I don't want your imput, I want Croniun's. Mainly because you don't seem to understand what I'm asking... (also, Accept, not except). If you notice what I put in italics, Calvinists believe that there is nothing to do with foresight in the matter.
I am asking a specific question here, that I want answered by a specific person. Croniun is the only person who's answer I really will accept as a valid explanation.

[Reaganista]

It's been my experience that most would agree that God selected the elect on his foreknowledge of who would except him.
yeah but you see god already predetermined everything that will happen so it's really just foreknowledge of who he selected

[croniun]

I'm at work right now but I'll try and post something later.

[Der Übermensch]

yeah but you see god already predetermined everything that will happen so it's really just foreknowledge of who he selected

But thats not what Calvanists believe.
When Croniun types up his response, he will say we have free will. And anyways, how many times to I have to say that it has nothing to do with 'Foreknowledge'?

[LittlePound]

But thats not what Calvanists believe.
When Croniun types up his response, he will say we have free will. And anyways, how many times to I have to say that it has nothing to do with 'Foreknowledge'?

My post didn't say anything against free will. I said that despite God's having elected them that doesn't negate man's responsability to choose, man has to freely choose God, and because God knew that he would choose he elected that man. Or at least that's how i understand it.
I also understand that you want croniun's input and that's why the title of thread has his name in it, but i didn't see a problem with necesarily posting mine just like everybody else has.

edit: and i think the part about Calvinists not believing it has anything to do with God's foreknowledge would vary from person to person. The whole reason for Predestination is God being completely Sovereign, which would include his foreknowledge of the future. It's only when you get to Hypercalvinism that the importance of man's choice is dropped.

[Der Übermensch]

I also understand that you want croniun's input and that's why the title of thread has his name in it, but i didn't see a problem with necesarily posting mine just like everybody else has.
Because I am asking a question that is particular to Calvinism, and he is a Calvinist, and a knowledgable one at that.
You however, are neither.

and i think the part about Calvinists not believing it has anything to do with God's foreknowledge would vary from person to person
Case in point. If you had read my first post, and seen what I italicized, you would see that the doctrinal writings on which Calvinism is based explicitly state that.

Now stop posting here... Cause its not doing any good.

[Smokey D]

Cut him a little slack. Calvinism isn't just the writings of Calvin.

[Reaganista]

what you italicized is completey illogical because god could not possibly lack that knowledge nor force himself to forget it

But thats not what Calvanists believe.
When Croniun types up his response, he will say we have free will. And anyways, how many times to I have to say that it has nothing to do with 'Foreknowledge'?
no what calvinists do is take something that is plainly not free will and call it that

[AmericanWeiner]

calvinists have a much better idea of free will than most other religions

[Der Übermensch]

what you italicized is completey illogical because god could not possibly lack that knowledge nor force himself to forget it
What I highlighted is from the Belgic Confession and the Westminster Confession, and are the written, doctrinal basis of Unconditional Election. Now, unless you are a Calvanist, I don't know why you are answering the question... I already think it makes no sense and is illogical, and I want someone qualified to explain why some people don't see it that way.

Now seriously, the next person to post here had better be Croniun, not some idiot saying what I already know.

and smokey, niehter of those were written by Calvin himself (Not to lump you in with the idiots...)

[LittlePound]

Because I am asking a question that is particular to Calvinism, and he is a Calvinist, and a knowledgable one at that.
You however, are neither.

Case in point. If you had read my first post, and seen what I italicized, you would see that the doctrinal writings on which Calvinism is based explicitly state that.

Now stop posting here... Cause its not doing any good.

My bad....you know. I guess John MacArthur (who is one of the most respected bible scholars of our day, who is by the way a Calvinists) isn't very knowledgeable about his own beliefs then because even he says "God's election or predestination does not operate apart from or nullify man's responsibility to believe in Jesus as LORD and SAVIOR."
My bad though, i guess he just isn't a reliable or knowledgeable enough source on Calvinism for you, even though as i said he is a Calvinist along with being one of the most respected bible scholars. Forgive me for intruding on your thread.....

[croniun]

So yea it's 1:30 in the morning and I just got in...I promise I'll post something tomorrow afternoon. :)

[Der Übermensch]

My bad....you know. I guess John MacArthur (who is one of the most respected bible scholars of our day, who is by the way a Calvinists) isn't very knowledgeable about his own beliefs then because even he says "God's election or predestination does not operate apart from or nullify man's responsibility to believe in Jesus as LORD and SAVIOR."
My bad though, i guess he just isn't a reliable or knowledgeable enough source on Calvinism for you, even though as i said he is a Calvinist along with being one of the most respected bible scholars. Forgive me for intruding on your thread.....

It isn't your source as much as you. I respect Croniun as a highly intelligent guy on the subject, and to not just be able to read about something and spit it back at me, which I can do on my own; but to actually understand the intricacies of it, and present it in a way beyond that which my skeptical mind see it.
And it doesn't matter what MacArthur says, becuase it DOESN'T EXPLAIN THE PASSAGES I WANT EXPLAINED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But don't worry, I forgive you. Just like god, I am quite forgiving towards the meek.

[Reaganista]

What I highlighted is from the Belgic Confession and the Westminster Confession, and are the written, doctrinal basis of Unconditional Election. Now, unless you are a Calvanist, I don't know why you are answering the question... I already think it makes no sense and is illogical, and I want someone qualified to explain why some people don't see it that way.

Now seriously, the next person to post here had better be Croniun, not some idiot saying what I already know.

and smokey, niehter of those were written by Calvin himself (Not to lump you in with the idiots...)

I was calvinist until I was 17 years old, he doesn't see it that way because he's been subjected to brainwashing that has caused hime to develop a completely irrational view of cause and effect relationships

oh and btw **** off i'll post wherever i feel like posting

[Der Übermensch]

Well, then keep within the topic of the damn thread. If you want to bash religion, do it in the other thread. I made this specificly because I didn't want posts like this "what you italicized is completey illogical because god could not possibly lack that knowledge nor force himself to forget it".

[Akira]

I haven't studied Calvinism past a section in a European History course, but from what I can tell the concept of predestination is pretty messed up.

[Reaganista]

Well, then keep within the topic of the damn thread. If you want to bash religion, do it in the other thread. I made this specificly because I didn't want posts like this "what you italicized is completey illogical because god could not possibly lack that knowledge nor force himself to forget it".

oh well i guess you can't always get what you want

[croniun]

Yea so I realize I'm posting this a week after I said I would but you know how things are...

The reason we say that our salvation is not based on God's foreknowledge of our faith and good works is because

1) It's illogical
2) It destroys the purpose of the life and death of Christ.

The reason it's illogical to say that God looks down the "tunnel of time" and sees the kind of people that we freely choose to be, then either damns us or regenerates us based on what he sees is because one of our fundametal beliefs that man is utterly depraved. Good works come from God; they are the products of salvation; not what brings about salvation. There are no good works and there is no faith for God to foresee, therefore, to say that salvation is based on God's foreknowledge is illogical. Otherwise, we would all be going to hell.

Furthermore, to say that salvation is based on God's foreknowledge implies that we do in fact possess the ability to live according to the law on our own, which completely undermines the purpose of Christ. Christ came to fulfill the law because we were unable to do so ourselves. In order to be deserving of salvation, we must possess the perfect righteousness of Christ who lived according to the law. None of us possess such righteousness on our own so the perfect righteousness of Christ must be imputed to us. The doctrine that salvation is based on God's foreknowledge of our good works denies that we need the imputation of Christ's perfect righteousness, thus making Christ's life and death void. Therefore, salvation is based on God's "secret counsel and good pleasure of his will," and not any merit of our own.

To answer your question...

There is no motivation for you, as an unbeliever, to convert and be faithful and that's at the heart of Calvinism. If you possessed on you own, without any intervention by God, a desire to become a Christian, then once again, that would undermine the purpose of Christ. Neither you, nor I have any desire or motivation to know God and we naturally desire to flee from God. Any motivation that you may end up having is only there because of God's choice to grant you tat motivation. So why not live the life of a hedonistic libertine if your fate is completely up to God? Well, my answer is that's all you can do. All you can do is follow your personal desires because like I've said a million times before, we always follow our strongest desires no matter what. That doesn't mean that I condone hedonistic lifestyles and that doesn't make a hedonistic lifestyle any more acceptable just because the choice to regenerate you is completely up to God. As Calvinists, we believe that all humans know there is a god. We believe that all humans have suppressed the knowledge of God in their hearts so that "no one is without excuse."

If I didn't answer everyhing you wanted answered just tell me.

[Der Übermensch]

No, thats pretty much exactly what I wanted answered.

The only I'm left wondering is what than possesses you to remain... faithful (? for lack of a better word)?
Because unless I'm still misreading something, don't I have just as much chance of being the elect as you do? So why not just give in to your 'depravity'?
Devout Catholics abstain from temporal enjoyments because they see such things as sinful, and doing so as harming their chances of finding Grace, but a Calvinist would see no difference between a crack whore and a saint, as far as gods perception matters, no?

[lunchforthesky]

As Calvinists, we believe that all humans know there is a god. We believe that all humans have suppressed the knowledge of God in their hearts so that "no one is without excuse."

You said a lot things i disagree with but this is so ridiculously stupid. Not only is it obvious that millions, in fact billions, dont believe in your version of God but what about those who lived upwards of 10,000 years ago before any kind of organised religion? Did they know God exists?

[croniun]

The only I'm left wondering is what than possesses you to remain... faithful (? for lack of a better word)?
Because unless I'm still misreading something, don't I have just as much chance of being the elect as you do? So why not just give in to your 'depravity'?
Devout Catholics abstain from temporal enjoyments because they see such things as sinful, and doing so as harming their chances of finding Grace,

The difference between a Calvinist and a Catholic is that the Catholic views a good work as something that sustains salvation; something that causes salvation to persevere or something that secures our salvation. Calvinists view a good work as a product of salvation; a proof of salvation. Once saved, our salvation is secured forever. So why not give in to our depravity if our salvation is secured no matter what? Once a person is regenerated (their hearts and minds freed from the bondage of sin so that we possess the ability to desire and know God), he will inevitably desire to do good works. The person who is truly saved will not give in to his depravity. If he does, then he was never saved in the first place.

In other words, a Calvinist views the saved person as someone who is free from his depraved nature so he will natually flee from his depravity and he will naturally strive to live for God. His good works simply prove that he is in fact saved. That isn't to say that a Christian will never slip up and will never have moments of weakness. But the true Christian will never fall back into a lifestyle of depravity.

So why not give into depravity as a Christian whose salvation is guaranteed no matter what? Because the true Christian does not have the ability to fall back into depravity.

but a Calvinist would see no difference between a crack whore and a saint, as far as gods perception matters, no?

No because the Calvinist doesn't believe that God's decision on who to save and who not to save is arbitrary. While we deny that the choice has anything to do with any merit of our own, we still believe that there is a reason for God's choice. Those reasons are not revealed to us in Scripture which is why we say that the choice is based on the "secret counsel and good pleasure of his will."

You said a lot things i disagree with but this is so ridiculously stupid. Not only is it obvious that millions, in fact billions, dont believe in your version of God but what about those who lived upwards of 10,000 years ago before any kind of organised religion? Did they know God exists?

Yes, we believe that everyone knows that God exists and we believe that everyone has suppressed this knowledge within them.

[lunchforthesky]

Yes, we believe that everyone knows that God exists and we believe that everyone has suppressed this knowledge within them.

Ugh can you say brainwashed?

How can you possibly think that. Dont you type it and think, "Oh wait actually that sounds really, really stupid, maybe i should think for myself."

Apparently not.

[croniun]

Guess I'm brainwashed then.

[lunchforthesky]

Well yeah pretty much.

[gregulus]

Calling Croniun brainwashed is probably one of the stupidest things to do after his post. Croniun's incredibly knowledgeable about his beliefs and I'm willing to bet he can defend them quite well. Come up with a more insightful response then "ugh brainwashed" please.

[Der Übermensch]

You said a lot things i disagree with but this is so ridiculously stupid. Not only is it obvious that millions, in fact billions, dont believe in your version of God but what about those who lived upwards of 10,000 years ago before any kind of organised religion? Did they know God exists?

Seriously. **** off and let us have an intelligent discussion here.
I don't agree with Calvinism, but it's one of the few religious doctrines that has any logic too it...

The difference between a Calvinist and a Catholic is that the Catholic views a good work as something that sustains salvation; something that causes salvation to persevere or something that secures our salvation. Calvinists view a good work as a product of salvation; a proof of salvation. Once saved, our salvation is secured forever. So why not give in to our depravity if our salvation is secured no matter what? Once a person is regenerated (their hearts and minds freed from the bondage of sin so that we possess the ability to desire and know God), he will inevitably desire to do good works. The person who is truly saved will not give in to his depravity. If he does, then he was never saved in the first place.
So if you do good (maybe not the best word choice) because you are the Elect?
ie. Doing good won't save you, rather if you are saved, you will be inclined towards doing good.

No because the Calvinist doesn't believe that God's decision on who to save and who not to save is arbitrary. While we deny that the choice has anything to do with any merit of our own, we still believe that there is a reason for God's choice. Those reasons are not revealed to us in Scripture which is why we say that the choice is based on the "secret counsel and good pleasure of his will."
This is the only thing that I can never make sense of. If the reason doesn't have to do with your own merit, then isn't it an arbitrary reason? Is it possible God simply flipped a coin for every soul he made, and thats really what determined the elect and reprobate for all of eternity?

[lunchforthesky]

Calling Croniun brainwashed is probably one of the stupidest things to do after his post. Croniun's incredibly knowledgeable about his beliefs and I'm willing to bet he can defend them quite well. Come up with a more insightful response then "ugh brainwashed" please.

Anyone who believes in the crap he comes out with has clearly forsaken rational thought in favour of the irrationality of his upbringing and thus is brainwashed. There will be people on the Flat Earth Forums who can defend their beliefs but i doesn't stop what they believe from believed incredibly stupid.

Seriously. **** off and let us have an intelligent discussion here.
I don't agree with Calvinism, but it's one of the few religious doctrines that has any logic too it...

It's so logical to believe everyone knows that God exists, even cavemen knew that the Christian God exists. Yeah real logical that is.

[AmericanWeiner]

yeah it's good to pick out one line of an entire religion to make an argument that that same religion has absolutely no logic to it

[lunchforthesky]

yeah it's good to pick out one line of an entire religion to make an argument that that same religion has absolutely no logic to it

While their may be logic within his faith that logic is built on an illogical and utterly ridiculous foundation, thus considering it logic would be incorrect.

And everyone on this site knows that is not even the beginning of the illogical things to do with Calivnism or Christianity in general, i just picked out one.

[Der Übermensch]

It's so logical to believe everyone knows that God exists, even cavemen knew that the Christian God exists. Yeah real logical that is.

I'm talking about internal consistency... Calvinism doesn't open itself up to much contradiction.

[lunchforthesky]

I'm talking about internal consistency... Calvinism doesn't open itself up to much contradiction.

I agree it is the most internally consistent doctrine and is in my opinion the closest to what the Bible incinuates but that stop it being very illogical from the outside. It just plain disregards common sense and what is obvious to everyone else in the world.

[Der Übermensch]

This Thread is NOT for the debating of Christianity, the Existence of God (which seems to be what you want), or Religion in General.
It is for the nuances of Calvinist Doctrine. If you want to go bitch about how all theists are idiots, make your own thread for it, or go spam up the Christianity thread.

[lunchforthesky]

Every other thread drifts off into other things, that is how forums work. You dont have the monopoly on who can post in what threads.

[Der Übermensch]

No, but I did say at the beginning of the thread that what you are doing is exactly what I didn't want this thread to become. The reason relgion threads always seem to get closed is because people start doing that ****.

Seriously, this forum, has, more than anything, been the closest thing to convincing me to return to religion...
Not because anyone has convinced me, but because it makes me realise how pigheaded and abnoxious athiests can be about their beliefs.

[gregulus]

No, but I did say at the beginning of the thread that what you are doing is exactly what I didn't want this thread to become. The reason relgion threads always seem to get closed is because people start doing that ****.

Seriously, this forum, has, more than anything, been the closest thing to convincing me to return to religion...
Not because anyone has convinced me, but because it makes me realise how pigheaded and abnoxious athiests can be about their beliefs.

Well, while I agree with you 100%, I would like to point out that not every religious person is like Croniun or Siva either. The pigheadedness and obnoxiousness can easily be found in abundance within the religious community. Just talk to the average members of any Southern Baptist church. However, this forum does exemplify the sometimes overwhelming arrogance of atheists.

[Der Übermensch]

True... VF and LP are hardly the endearing types, but they don't exactly tip the scales overall.

[gregulus]

True... VF and LP are hardly the endearing types, but they don't exactly tip the scales overall.

They probably don't tip the scales because they're the only two overly zealous Christians on this board. Imagine them in numbers like obnoxious atheists are here...

[Reaganista]

Calling Croniun brainwashed is probably one of the stupidest things to do after his post. Croniun's incredibly knowledgeable about his beliefs and I'm willing to bet he can defend them quite well. Come up with a more insightful response then "ugh brainwashed" please.
no he's brainwashed

[Der Übermensch]

No more so than you are.

[Reaganista]

not really though

[Der Übermensch]

Prove it :p

[Smokey D]

They probably don't tip the scales because they're the only two overly zealous Christians on this board. Imagine them in numbers like obnoxious atheists are here...

LP's hardly obnoxious.

[Der Übermensch]

No, he's just annoying.

[Reaganista]

Prove it :p

click on reaganista > find more posts and read them all

then click on croniun > find more posts and read them all

get back to me in a few months

[croniun]

So if you do good (maybe not the best word choice) because you are the Elect?
ie. Doing good won't save you, rather if you are saved, you will be inclined towards doing good.

Right.

This is the only thing that I can never make sense of. If the reason doesn't have to do with your own merit, then isn't it an arbitrary reason? Is it possible God simply flipped a coin for every soul he made, and thats really what determined the elect and reprobate for all of eternity?

No, because then it would make the choice arbitrary and if everything is predestined to achieve an ultimate goal, then nothing God predestines can be arbitrary.

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will Ephesians 1:11

Given the implications of this verse there is no reason to think that the choice is based on nothing more then a flip of a coin.

[Reaganista]

not inclined

you have to be elect to be capable of doing anything good

ever

[Der Übermensch]

Well, I know that your answer is that our concepts and ideas don't apply to god, but from a human perspective, doesn't it seem just a bit innane that someone is hell bound not because he himself deserves it, but because it's for the greater good?
Wow... Calvanism is religious utilitarianism :p

click on reaganista > find more posts and read them all

then click on croniun > find more posts and read them all

get back to me in a few months
You obviously missed my point. You believe just as fervently that you are right as does he. You are therefor brainwashed. I am also brainwashed. So is Smokey... greg... ron... and anyone else who holds an opinion...

[Smokey D]

Since when do you get to play bait-and-switch with definitions?

[Reaganista]

You obviously missed my point. You believe just as fervently that you are right as does he. You are therefor brainwashed. I am also brainwashed. So is Smokey... greg... ron... and anyone else who holds an opinion...
so now brainwashed means having convictions
k

we need to invent a new term for someone whose ability to think has been greatly impaired by doctrine and then i'll use that one

[LittlePound]

LP's hardly obnoxious.

:) well thank you

[Der Übermensch]

so now brainwashed means having convictions
k

we need to invent a new term for someone whose ability to think has been greatly impaired by doctrine and then i'll use that one

Croniun's 'ability to think' is hardly impaired... He's one of the all round smartest guys on here... Just because he doesn't believe the same thing you do doesn't automatically mean he's an idiot. Merely that you are conceited.

[Reaganista]

As Calvinists, we believe that all humans know there is a god. We believe that all humans have suppressed the knowledge of God in their hearts so that "no one is without excuse."
are you prepared to argue that this is not an example of a person whose ability to think has been fundamentally curtailed by doctrine

[Der Übermensch]

I will say that he has put his ability to think towards a doctrine I don't necessarily agree with, but that hardly equates with what you are saying.

[Reaganista]

the turkana boy knew that the christian god existed and in 1.5 million years his son would die to pay for his inherent evilness

[Der Übermensch]

Turkana boy? Who's that?

But the son isn't paying for his inherant evilness. Mankind pays for their inherant evilness, and only those who have recieved God's grace may avoid that. Pretty straight forward if you ask me.

[RockAndRoll]

Turkana boy? Who's that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkana_boy
But the son isn't paying for his inherant evilness. Mankind pays for their inherant evilness, and only those who have recieved God's grace may avoid that. Pretty straight forward if you ask me.

"his son" = God's son = Jesus

[Der Übermensch]

ah... Thats why I was confused. Without a period, I though he meant the son of the Turkana boy... (how a kid would live for 1.5 million years... don't ask...).

But the I can't speak for Croniun, but I think that Calvanists would take Letter to the Romans as being cannon, and in them is says that people with know exposure to Jesus can still be saved. (In Calvanist terms I would take this to having no conscious knowledge of him). So it would still be possible to be the elect even if you weren't exposed to Christianity. Croniun may correct that at will.

[RockAndRoll]

:lol: Yeah, I figured.

[siva_chair]

Anyone who has been conditioned by anything is, in effect, brainwashed. I do think that makes pretty much everyone who has an opinion on anything brainwashed.

[Lotus_Position]

Everyone is conditioned, but not necessarily one's opinion.