Jerry Falwell dead at 73

[Zesty Mordant]

The Rev. Jerry Falwell, who founded the Moral Majority and built the religious right into a political force, died Tuesday shortly after being found unconscious in his office at Liberty University, a school executive said. He was 73.

This is a breaking news update. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

LYNCHBURG, Va. (AP) The Rev. Jerry Falwell was hospitalized in "gravely serious" condition after being found unconscious Tuesday in his office at Liberty University, a school executive said.

Ron Godwin, the university's executive vice president, said Falwell, 73, was found unresponsive around 10:45 a.m. and taken to Lynchburg General Hospital. Godwin said he was not sure what caused the collapse, but he said Falwell "has a history of heart challenges."

"I had breakfast with him, and he was fine at breakfast," Godwin said. "He went to his office, I went to mine, and they found him unresponsive."

Godwin said Falwell was receiving emergency care. A hospital spokeswoman said she had "no information to release at this time."

Falwell, a television evangelist who founded the Moral Majority, became the face of the religious right in the 1980s. He later founded the conservative Liberty University and serves as its president.

Falwell survived two serious health scares in early 2005. He was hospitalized for two weeks with what was described as a viral infection, then was hospitalized again a few weeks later after going into respiratory arrest. Later that year, doctors found a 70 percent blockage in an artery, which they opened with stents.

Liberty University's commencement is scheduled for Saturday, with former U.S. House Speaker Newt Gingrich as the featured speaker.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3176379

thoughts? comments?

or should we just let the theological thread-hijacking begin?

[lfantwister]

woohoo

[The Stig]

I didn't agree with him on everything, but as far as I know, he was a decent person. R.I.P.

[Reaganista]

glad he's dead i hope i have the chance to vandalize his grave sometime

LYNCHBURG, Va.
i lol'd

[spitfirejunky]

This guy is probably worse than Fred Phelps.

I suppose it doesn't matter anymore though. RIP you racist imbecile.

[Mr. Ron]

FINALLY!

[pedro durruti]

So he has finally found the truth.

[EightMilesHigh]

own3d

[Der Übermensch]

yay! Now God needs to smite Oral Roberts...

[VomitStainedCretin]

Didn't this guy say that 9/11 happened because of New York's liberal views on gays and abortion. Sounds like the world is better off without him.:)

[HazMatBlue]

FINALLY!

youre back:eek:

[ringworm]

you're all going to H E double hocky sticks



:)

[Akira]

Down with the moral majority.

...

I'm not as punk as Green Day...

:p

[SoulSeekerz]

I was not a Jerry Falwell fan, but if he was a Godly man as he claimed, he is with his maker, or the other guy.lol

[stevensonmat2]

huzzah

[Mr. Ron]

lol what a scumbag this loser was.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/foulwell.htm

[mannybeinmanny]

Oh what a happy day. I can't wait to dance on that man's grave.

[BassVirtuoso]

He was obviously assassinated by a congregation of gays, feminists, and jews.

[Mr. Ron]

Don't forget m00zlimz

[AA-12]

If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being.

[Mr. Ron]

Its true. :upset: :(

[Reaganista]

i thought you had to be a WASP

[AA-12]

Protestantism is silly.

[Akira]

Justin is right. It was the fags.

Bets on how long it will take for God to smite San Francisco in retaliation?

[Reaganista]

wait wait wait you're a catholic white supremacist now?

[AA-12]

yes

[Reaganista]

so then you're glad that he's dead too, right?

[AA-12]

I'm not glad that anyone dies, but I didn't like him and don't really care about him.

[Reaganista]

it's ok to be glad when Jerry Falwell dies, though

god told me

[Akira]

Wotan, I have to give you mad props for your avatar.

[AA-12]

+rep for good taste

[JohnXDoe]

"heart challenges" lol. more like food challenges....goddamn gluttonous hypocrite hope he burns in his make believe hell....

[MattSharpIsCool]

I don't want to say I'm happy he's dead, but....

I'm happy he's dead.

[Hababi]

This guy is probably worse than Fred Phelps.


Oh come now. There are very few people whose death deserves celebration. Fred Phelps will be one of them. Jerry Falwell wasn't.

[Mr. Ron]

yes

WHEN did this happen? lol

[Der Übermensch]

Oh come now. There are very few people whose death deserves celebration. Fred Phelps will be one of them. Jerry Falwell wasn't.

Isn't he one of those guys who only wants Israel to exist just so it can be destroyed once Armageddon comes?
I'd thought you don't like Anti-semites...

[Scuba_Steve]

Jimmy carter said it best...
"I say this in the most christian way possible, but he can burn in hell"

[A Spoonful Supreme]

woohoo

LOL

[LittlePound]

i know he's respected by some in the Christians community, but on the site that was posted in the thread it claims he called Billy Graham a servant of Satan. I don't understand where anybody could get off thinking that. I don't think i would like this guy by the quotes attributed to him on that webpage.

[lfantwister]

Isn't he one of those guys who only wants Israel to exist just so it can be destroyed once Armageddon comes?
I'd thought you don't like Anti-semites...
Regardless of the ulterior motive he wants Israel to exist. and that's good enough, the apocalypse will bring other worries

[JohnXDoe]

Falwell had the nerve to harshly judge others all the while committing the deadly sin of GLUTTONY and most likely pride, too. because he was smug as hell. nothing pisses me off more then self righteous "men of god" who can't walk it like they talk it. and in triple chinned jerry's case it showed. all over his big fat morbidly obese body. can you imagine that man preaching what he preached if he had to stand naked before us, his god, and everyone? i can't. dude was a joke and a bad one at that.

its not so much what he said or believed for me, its who the person was doing the saying. he had no credibility by his own words and actions. goddamn balloon head.

[Reaganista]

Isn't he one of those guys who only wants Israel to exist just so it can be destroyed once Armageddon comes?
I'd thought you don't like Anti-semites...

i think you've failed to estimate the depths of zero's insanity

why do you think he wants israel to exist?

[Der Übermensch]

I always assumed it was 'cause he wishes he was Jewish...

But maybe its actually cause he really hates Jews...

[Reaganista]

some male jewish virgins get to go to heaven in revelations

[Smokey D]

I always assumed it was 'cause he wishes he was Jewish...

But maybe its actually cause he really hates Jews...

But millennial thinking is all about the mass conversion of Jews to usher in the Second Coming, so they'd be saved.

[Der Übermensch]

They have the option to be saved... but Israel will be destroyed.

(and regardless, its fun to try to call zero an anti-semite :) )

[AA-12]

WHEN did this happen? lol

Don't worry, i'm closer to being an african american revolutionary than that.

[Reaganista]

well you are a white supremacist

[spitfirejunky]

Oh come now. There are very few people whose death deserves celebration. Fred Phelps will be one of them. Jerry Falwell wasn't.

I wasn't really celebrating and I'm not particularly happy he died. I don't think Fred Phelps deserves to die either.

But these guys are insane.

[SoulSeekerz]

He preached what he believed, but he had a lot of haters.

[Roy.]

speaking as a long time christian i would like to say this:

this ****er along with people like pat robertson and that "lucas" guy (see recent rolling stone issue with the grindhouse cover story) continues to send christianity back to the stone age. their brand of thinking over the years now breeds warped even psychotic christian teenagers who think this life is a "war" between the people of god and everyone else.

he was a sack of bullshit and the damage he caused may never be repaired.

forgive me if i don't put flowers on his grave.

[Hababi]

WHEN did this happen? lol

It makes sense--I think Wotan values strong centralized leadership and Catholicism offers this much better than Protestantism.


I wasn't really celebrating and I'm not particularly happy he died. I don't think Fred Phelps deserves to die either.

But these guys are insane.


I don't think they're really equatable, at all. And I don't know if I'd say Fred Phelps deserves to die, but I will be glad when he does.

[Chrysostom]

It's because of people like Falwell that I'm glad humans are destined to die. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

[Rise Me Up]

http://www.mitchclem.com/rockcity/images/comic_files/20070516.gif

lol.

[Danger Bird]

:chug:

Ironic that the fact that this took so long actually disproves the existence of God. Damn, I wish he wasn't being buried in Virginia, I'd like to dance on his grave.

Oh yeah, I found this funny:
http://mitchclem.com/rockcity/index.php?comic=91

Did you guys know Phelps is actually protesting Falwell's funeral?

[Mr. Ron]

It makes sense--I think Wotan values strong centralized leadership and Catholicism offers this much better than Protestantism.



I don't think they're really equatable, at all. And I don't know if I'd say Fred Phelps deserves to die, but I will be glad when he does.

Steve are you going to that new Creationist museum opening up?

[Hababi]

Steve are you going to that new Creationist museum opening up?

:confused: What new Creationist museum?

[Mr. Ron]

I figured you would know about it.

http://www.creationmuseum.org/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wzjjxi7f0Oc
http://www.answersingenesis.org/museum/walkthrough/

Basically they have exhibits that are robotic and show man coexisting with dinos.

[Hababi]

I'm pretty sure there is evidence that some dinosaur life coexisted with humans for some period of time.

But I believe in theistic evolution.

[Iskandar]

I'm pretty sure there is evidence that some dinosaur life coexisted with humans for some period of time.
Dude, what? Dinosaurs lived tens of billions of years ago.

[Hababi]

Dude, what? Dinosaurs lived tens of billions of years ago.

Yeah but I think a few forms of them survived longer than many others.

[lfantwister]

in evolved forms right? like chickens?

[Hababi]

in evolved forms right? like chickens?

In more primitive forms. There are still some very primitive species around, including one species of shark that is rarely seen because of how deep it swims. One was found recently but it is thought to have evolved little since prehistoric times.

[Iskandar]

Yeah but I think a few forms of them survived longer than many others.I hadn't heard that from any source. Why do you believe that is so?

:wave:

[Danger Bird]

I'm pretty sure there is evidence that some dinosaur life coexisted with humans for some period of time.

But I believe in theistic evolution.

:lol:

Guys, I really think Zero is a gimmick that got out of hand.

[Hababi]

I hadn't heard that from any source. Why do you believe that is so?

:wave:

See above post :p

[Mr. Ron]

I'm pretty sure there is evidence that some dinosaur life coexisted with humans for some period of time.

But I believe in theistic evolution.


:amaze:


This statement makes me want to seclude myself in my room and read the entire works of Nietzsche, just to wash my brain free of it.

[Hababi]

:amaze:


This statement makes me want to seclude myself in my room and read the entire works of Nietzsche, just to wash my brain free of it.

It's a true statement. There are species alive today that have evolved little, if at all, from their prehistoric form. I suggest you read up on the matter:smash:

[Mr. Ron]

It's a true statement. There are species alive today that have evolved little, if at all, from their prehistoric form. I suggest you read up on the matter:smash:

You said dinosaurs, not "species".

[Hababi]

You said dinosaurs, not "species".

Well obviously I wasn't alleging that humans coexisted with T-Rexes.

[Der Übermensch]

I'm pretty sure there is evidence that some dinosaur life coexisted with humans for some period of time.
However much I wish it was, The Far Side is not on par with an academic journal...

[Mr. Ron]

Well obviously I wasn't alleging that humans coexisted with T-Rexes.

Well, do you believe in the ark? Wouldn't they have to exist with man to be real in a biblical sense?

[Iskandar]

I don't see how any Christian, Jew or Muslim can believe tales like Noah's Ark are any more than just instructional myth.

[Smokey D]

In more primitive forms. There are still some very primitive species around, including one species of shark that is rarely seen because of how deep it swims. One was found recently but it is thought to have evolved little since prehistoric times.

Sharks in general haven't evolved much. There's no real need for them to.


I'm pretty sure there is evidence that some dinosaur life coexisted with humans for some period of time.

Not as dinosaurs they didn't. Unless you mean the Loch Ness Monster or something. It's pretty certain that mammals didn't evolve until well after the dinosaurs died out (like 50 million years or something).

[Hababi]

Yeah the shark life is what I was referring to, as there was recently a prehistoric shark found.

[Smokey D]

But they're not dinosaurs...

The term is living fossil. There's actually quite a few -- tuataras, sharks, lots of plants, crocodiles, etc

[Der Übermensch]

Yeah the shark life is what I was referring to, as there was recently a prehistoric shark found.

Hardly the same thing.... Sharks aren't dino's, and never were. They are merely a family that was alive at the same time, and has been relativly unchanged since.

Dinosaurs have been extinct in all forms since about 65 million years ago.

[Akira]

This argument seems to me to be a new low in PNWI.

Arguing about semantics is so lame.

[Reaganista]

I'm pretty sure there is evidence that some dinosaur life coexisted with humans for some period of time.
this kinda stuff is all i'm here for

plz enable sigs, btw

[Danger Bird]

Anti-Flag sucks.

Sorry.

[Reaganista]

Anti-Flag sucks.

Sorry.

RED WHITE AND BRAINWASHED

[Roy.]

I don't see how any Christian, Jew or Muslim can believe tales like Noah's Ark are any more than just instructional myth.

well even scientist and historians believed the great flood happened. physical evidence inside of mountains has been found of water rising thousands of feet into the mountains creating lime deposits that otherwise can't be explained.

so if this really happened than how else would the human species have survived such a huge event? i guarantee they didn't swim it out. :p

also i believe that found a chunk of the ark recently.

[Smokey D]

Don't be silly. No one seriously thinks that there was a worldwide flood and that Noah built an ark to house two of every animal. There's evidence of big floods, yeah, but that's something pretty different.

And the ark hasn't been found.

[Kurrpt]

I don't see how any can justify natural disasters and terrorist attacks as "retribution from God"

He basically made money off of misery

[VomitStainedCretin]

I don't see how any can justify natural disasters and terrorist attacks as "retribution from God":rolleyes:Obviously God has some random murder generator that he activates everytime someone thinks about something else apart from how much they enjoy being anally raped by Jesus.:rolleyes:

[Reaganista]

what

[Kurrpt]

he's making fun of Jerry, not my post......really

[spitfirejunky]

I don't think they're really equatable, at all. And I don't know if I'd say Fred Phelps deserves to die, but I will be glad when he does.

I don't know. They're both proactive about their extreme beliefs in different ways. I'll never cut Falwell some slack after he's tried to desecularize the government.

[Hababi]

I don't know. They're both proactive about their extreme beliefs in different ways. I'll never cut Falwell some slack after he's tried to desecularize the government.

Don't you think that Phelps' constant barrage of insane hatred and moral offense is a whole heck of a lot different than Falwell's occasional mildly over-the-top statement and moderately reactionary political stance?

[Iskandar]

Don't you think that Phelps' constant barrage of insane hatred and moral offense is a whole heck of a lot different than Falwell's occasional mildly over-the-top statement and moderately reactionary political stance?Hey, just like you.:D

[Hababi]

Hey, just like you.:D

:lol: Hey I'm milder than Falwell :p

[Mr. Ron]

:lol: Hey I'm milder than Falwell :p

A mild Falwell only blames gays for everything.

[A Spoonful Supreme]

I think you guys just can't stand the fact that Falwell is in heaven getting a big pat on the back from god :p

[Kurrpt]

doubt it, highly

[Akira]

I think you guys just can't stand the fact that Falwell is in heaven getting a big pat on the back from god :p

Either that, or Allah is bending him over.

[A Spoonful Supreme]

Lol, you think maybe he didn't choose wisely. Allah is the same god bttw.

[VomitStainedCretin]

He's being dismembered by Kali as we speak.

[A Spoonful Supreme]

lol he's pushing a boulder up a hill for eternity

[Reaganista]

moderately reactionary political stance
what

[Hababi]

what

Falwell was hardly the extremist he was made out to be (beyond in his first few years, when he was a segregationist, a position he moved far away from). The behavior by liberals is mean spirited and immature, and at the level of Ann Coulter. If conservatives react in similar fashion when the much slummier Jesse Jackson dies, they would be labeled racists, hate mongers, etc.

It also shows, once again, that many on the left have a fundamental problem with Christianity and want to squelch its presence in America.

[Reaganista]

well i'll be glad when jesse jackson dies too tbh

and i also have a fundamental problem with christianity so kudos on figuring that out

but I was more confused by the contradiction in terms of 'moderately' and 'reactionary'

[Hababi]

well i'll be glad when jesse jackson dies too tbh

and i also have a fundamental problem with christianity so kudos on figuring that out

The way many liberals target Christianity is fundamentally the same as the way Dixiecrats targeted blacks. Bigotry and intolerance has festered in the ranks of the Democrat party since its inception.


but I was more confused by the contradiction in terms of 'moderately' and 'reactionary'

Reactionary responses aren't inherently extreme. They can be anywhere from mild to severe. Falwell was nowhere close to extreme.

[Danger Bird]

The way many liberals target Christianity is fundamentally the same as the way Dixiecrats targeted blacks. Bigotry and intolerance has festered in the ranks of the Democrat party since its inception.



Reactionary responses aren't inherently extreme. They can be anywhere from mild to severe. Falwell was nowhere close to extreme.

If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell

Sorry, I guess I'm bigoted.

[Hababi]

If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being.
-- Rev Jerry Falwell

Sorry, I guess I'm bigoted.

That's nothing compared to the things Richard Dawkins says.

[Akira]

That's nothing compared to the things Richard Dawkins says.

ITT: Zero uses the "It's alright if I beat someone half to death, because other people commit murder" argument.

GG

[Hababi]

ITT: Zero uses the "It's alright if I beat someone half to death, because other people commit murder" argument.

GG

The people criticizing Falwell admire men who say much worse things. I don't see how that's not relevant. It's not about anything that Falwell said, but rather that he was a Christian. In the end, it comes down to the fact that he disagreed with them, not that he occasionally chose to voice his opposition in over-the-top ways.

[Mr. Ron]

Steve, you honestly think Dems get up in the morning and think "Hmmm, how can we curtail religious freedom today!?"

Really.

[Hababi]

Steve, you honestly think Dems get up in the morning and think "Hmmm, how can we curtail religious freedom today!?"

Really.

A segment of them certainly wake up each morning desiring to exterminate religious belief and practice in America.

[Mr. Ron]

A segment of them certainly wake up each morning desiring to exterminate religious belief and practice in America.

Thats ridiculous. Name some.

[Hababi]

Thats ridiculous. Name some.

Richard Dawkins. Most of the bloggers on Dailykos. And most of the other nutroots websites, too.

[Mr. Ron]

Richard Dawkins. Most of the bloggers on Dailykos. And most of the other nutroots websites, too.

Richard Dawkins doesn't want to undermine religion, he simply wants the truth to be taught tin school and wants atheists to come out of hiding, didn't you read his book? He lists all of his intentions in there.

You really don't understand him though, I can tell.

[Iskandar]

Richard Dawkins. Most of the bloggers on Dailykos. And most of the other nutroots websites, too.Uh, those aren't convincing statistics.

[Hababi]

Richard Dawkins doesn't want to undermine religion, he simply wants the truth to be taught tin school and wants atheists to come out of hiding, didn't you read his book? He lists all of his intentions in there.

You really don't understand him though, I can tell.

No, you're whitewashing an extremist polemicist.


Uh, those aren't convincing statistics.

Well exactly where would I find a precise statistical measure of it? :p

There's a lot more liberals committed to destroying religion than there are conservatives intent on forcefeeding it to others.

[Mr. Ron]

No, you're whitewashing an extremist polemicist.




Well exactly where would I find a precise statistical measure of it? :p

There's a lot more liberals committed to destroying religion than there are conservatives intent on forcefeeding it to others.

Find me some factual quotes that show him wanting to exterminate religion. Anything.

[Iskandar]

Well exactly where would I find a precise statistical measure of it? :p

There's a lot more liberals committed to destroying religion than there are conservatives intent on forcefeeding it to others.There must be a poll somewhere.

What do you mean by destroying religion? Do you mean infringing upon the freedom of others to practice it (which isn't very liberal at all), or do you mean ending its influence within government and secular society?

[Hababi]

Find me some factual quotes that show him wanting to exterminate religion. Anything.
"I want to examine that dangerous thing that’s common to Judaism and Christianity as well: the process of non-thinking called faith."
"Many of us saw religion as harmless nonsense. Beliefs might lack all supporting evidence but, we thought, if people needed a crutch for consolation, where's the harm? September 11th changed all that. Revealed faith is not harmless nonsense, it can be lethally dangerous nonsense. Dangerous because it gives people unshakeable confidence in their own righteousness. Dangerous because it gives them false courage to kill themselves, which automatically removes normal barriers to killing others. Dangerous because it teaches enmity to others labelled only by a difference of inherited tradition. And dangerous because we have all bought into a weird respect, which uniquely protects religion from normal criticism. Let's now stop being so damned respectful!"

"Bush and bin Laden are really on the same side: the side of faith and violence against the side of reason and discussion. Both have implacable faith that they are right and the other is evil. Each believes that when he dies he is going to heaven. Each believes that if he could kill the other, his path to paradise in the next world would be even swifter. The delusional "next world" is welcome to both of them. This world would be a much better place without either of them."

Each of those quotes is more extremist, sectarian, and bigoted than anything Falwell ever said.

[Hababi]

There must be a poll somewhere.

What do you mean by destroying religion? Do you mean infringing upon the freedom of others to practice it (which isn't very liberal at all), or do you mean ending its influence within government and secular society?

I mean the liberals that want to pass "hate speech" laws that would squelch freedom of religion and suppress Christianity. Who want to ban the mention of God or religious faith from all public discourse, and destroy every public religious image.

[Mr. Ron]

"I want to examine that dangerous thing that’s common to Judaism and Christianity as well: the process of non-thinking called faith."
"Many of us saw religion as harmless nonsense. Beliefs might lack all supporting evidence but, we thought, if people needed a crutch for consolation, where's the harm? September 11th changed all that. Revealed faith is not harmless nonsense, it can be lethally dangerous nonsense. Dangerous because it gives people unshakeable confidence in their own righteousness. Dangerous because it gives them false courage to kill themselves, which automatically removes normal barriers to killing others. Dangerous because it teaches enmity to others labelled only by a difference of inherited tradition. And dangerous because we have all bought into a weird respect, which uniquely protects religion from normal criticism. Let's now stop being so damned respectful!"

"Bush and bin Laden are really on the same side: the side of faith and violence against the side of reason and discussion. Both have implacable faith that they are right and the other is evil. Each believes that when he dies he is going to heaven. Each believes that if he could kill the other, his path to paradise in the next world would be even swifter. The delusional "next world" is welcome to both of them. This world would be a much better place without either of them."

Each of those quotes is more extremist, sectarian, and bigoted than anything Falwell ever said.

Um, he's just saying how religion is detrimental to humanity, not a new idea.

[Iskandar]

I mean the liberals that want to pass "hate speech" laws that would squelch freedom of religion and suppress Christianity. Who want to ban the mention of God or religious faith from all public discourse, and destroy every public religious image.Um, let's clarify what you're saying for me.

How are liberals planning to squelch freedom of religion in America?

I personally only want to destroy public religious images which are displayed by the government itself.b

[Hababi]

Um, he's just saying how religion is detrimental to humanity, not a new idea.

Yeah and all of those quotes express a much deeper bigotry than Falwell's.


How are liberals planning to squelch freedom of religion in America?


Hate speech laws, to start with. Public indoctrination of their agenda.

[Iskandar]

Hate speech laws, to start with. Public indoctrination of their agenda.Okay. What hate speech laws?

[Mr. Ron]

Yeah and all of those quotes express a much deeper bigotry than Falwell's.



Hate speech laws, to start with. Public indoctrination of their agenda.

LOL! Funny, I don't see Dawkins preaching that god punished mankind with 9/11, punishes gays with AIDS and thinks that we should bomb non-christian countries and convert them. Keep the jokes coming Steve you make me lol.

[Hababi]

Okay. What hate speech laws?

Ones similar to the existing legislation in Sweden, only more severe.

LOL! Funny, I don't see Dawkins preaching that god punished mankind with 9/11, punishes gays with AIDS and thinks that we should bomb non-christian countries and convert them. Keep the jokes coming Steve you make me lol.

No he just equates Christians and Osama Bin Laden. :rolleyes:

[Mr. Ron]

Ones similar to the existing legislation in Sweden, only more severe.



No he just equates Christians and Osama Bin Laden. :rolleyes:

I only see him comparing Bush to Bin Ladin.

[Iskandar]

Ones similar to the existing legislation in Sweden, only more severe.Okay, but what are these laws? What would they do?

[Hababi]

I only see him comparing Bush to Bin Ladin.

Read carefully, because the clear implication is that evangelical Christians are on the same level as Osama Bin Laden.

Okay, but what are these laws? What would they do?

Amongst other things, make it a crime to say that homosexuality is a sin.

[Mr. Ron]

Read carefully, because the clear implication is that evangelical Christians are on the same level as Osama Bin Laden.



Amongst other things, make it a crime to say that homosexuality is a sin.

Some have very similar beliefs to fundamentalist Islam sooooo.....

[Hababi]

Some have very similar beliefs to fundamentalist Islam sooooo.....

That's as bigoted as anything Falwell's ever said so you're in the same boat :p

[Mr. Ron]

That's as bigoted as anything Falwell's ever said so you're in the same boat :p

Steve, do you ever get tired of being wrong?

[Hababi]

Steve, do you ever get tired of being wrong?

It's hard to get tired of something you so rarely experience. You just can't see that your side is worse than Falwell, and more hypocritical.

[Mr. Ron]

It's hard to get tired of something you so rarely experience. You just can't see that your side is worse than Falwell, and more hypocritical.

What side am I on?

[Hababi]

What side am I on?

The intolerant, anti-Christian side.

[Mr. Ron]

The intolerant, anti-Christian side.

lolololololollllll

Yeah, I want to rip your cross off the wall of your church and butt**** your clergy!!!! RAWR!

[Iskandar]

Amongst other things, make it a crime to say that homosexuality is a sin.Very well. I think that's but a misguided attempt to protect the dignity of homosexuals. I don't agree with it, but I don't necessarily see it as an attack on Christianity.
The intolerant, anti-Christian side.Is everyone who's not Jerry Falwell on this side? Am I?

[Hababi]

Very well. I think that's but a misguided attempt to protect the dignity of homosexuals. I don't agree with it, but I don't necessarily see it as an attack on Christianity.


That's who it's essentially singularly aimed at.


Is everyone who's not Jerry Falwell on this side? Am I?

No, just the people who are overtly hostile and condescending to religious, specifically Christian, people.

[Iskandar]

That's who it's essentially singularly aimed at.I don't think anyone's in the right here. Banning certain forms of speech is obviously unacceptable, but ranting about how San Fran is Gomorrah isn't helping either.

[Hababi]

I don't think anyone's in the right here. Banning certain forms of speech is obviously unacceptable, but ranting about how San Fran is Gomorrah isn't helping either.

Well yeah I agree with you there.

But when gay parades filled with obese men in pink dresses whipping each other passes down the street, I must confess the comparison comes to mind :\

[Mr. Ron]

That's who it's essentially singularly aimed at.



No, just the people who are overtly hostile and condescending to religious, specifically Christian, people.

Um, there's probably more religious people that are condescending to atheists/agnostics/skeptics than the other way around.

I believe that a recent study has been done by a university or something that lists atheist as THE most mistrusted group in America. That says something about acceptance on your side, doesn't it?

[Permanent Solution]

I don't think it's hostile to attribute negativity to religious zealots. This is accounting for the idea that Athiesm is a religion.

But I hardly think Ron is being as zealous as someone like Falwell.

[Mr. Ron]

Well yeah I agree with you there.

But when gay parades filled with obese men in pink dresses whipping each other passes down the street, I must confess the comparison comes to mind :\

Why are you afraid of men showing their sexuality to each other?

[Hababi]

Um, there's probably more religious people that are condescending to atheists/agnostics/skeptics than the other way around.


Well that's because there's a WHOLE LOT more religious people than agnostics/atheists in this country :p But there's a much higher percentage of hostile, condescending atheists than Christians.


I believe that a recent study has been done by a university or something that lists atheist as THE most mistrusted group in America. That says something about acceptance on your side, doesn't it?

Oh come on you know Muslims are :p

PS are you now a Chomsky fan or is the avatar in jest?

[Iskandar]

But when gay parades filled with obese men in pink dresses whipping each other passes down the street, I must confess the comparison comes to mind :\See, those men aren't Jews from five thousand years ago though.

[Hababi]

See, those men aren't Jews from five thousand years ago though.

:lol:

I don't think the Sodomites were Jews, though. I don't know what ethnicity they were, but I'm fairly certain it wasn't Hebrew.

[Iskandar]

:lol:

I don't think the Sodomites were Jews, though. I don't know what ethnicity they were, but I'm fairly certain it wasn't Hebrew.Now that I think of it, they probably weren't. I just recalled that Abraham prayed for them, so I got muddled.

[Mr. Ron]

Well that's because there's a WHOLE LOT more religious people than agnostics/atheists in this country :p But there's a much higher percentage of hostile, condescending atheists than Christians.



Oh come on you know Muslims are :p

PS are you now a Chomsky fan or is the avatar in jest?

Do you think certain persons that are hostile are made that way through discrimination?

No really, look it up. It lists atheists below Arabs.



I like Noam's stance of foreign policy and some economic issues.

[Permanent Solution]

Well that's because there's a WHOLE LOT more religious people than agnostics/atheists in this country :p But there's a much higher percentage of hostile, condescending atheists than Christians.

Oh come on you know Muslims are :p

PS are you now a Chomsky fan or is the avatar in jest?
If you're in a hated minority I think it's pretty natural to retaliate in an overly hostile fashion. Right? Probably not, but any historically hated group I can think of has ended up being a loud vocal minority due to that position.

[Hababi]

Do you think certain persons that are hostile are made that way through discrimination?


No, through arrogance. Atheism is an arrogant belief and so hostility and condescension is natural to it.


I like Noam's stance of foreign policy and some economic issues.

Oh dear, you've crossed over to the dark side :\ Noam Chomsky is a joke. And a Stalinist defender/sympathizer. And a paranoid lunatic.

[Iskandar]

No, through arrogance. Atheism is an arrogant belief and so hostility and condescension is natural to it..Uh, I fail to see how it's any more arrogant than Christianity, which explicitly claims to be the only correct religion.

[pedro durruti]

Well that's because there's a WHOLE LOT more religious people than agnostics/atheists in this country :p But there's a much higher percentage of hostile, condescending atheists than Christians.
A lot of it probably just seems hostile but many are just being critical. There are definitely a lot of hostile atheists, but I think you over estimate. Atheism is a pretty diverse world view, not all have such strong convictions like the "hostile" ones.
Oh dear, you've crossed over to the dark side :\ Noam Chomsky is a joke. And a Stalinist defender/sympathizer. And a paranoid lunatic.
Chomsky detests Stalin, and all other authortarian leaders.

[Permanent Solution]

No, through arrogance. Atheism is an arrogant belief and so hostility and condescension is natural to it.

How is Athiesm arrogant?

[Hababi]

Uh, I fail to see how it's any more arrogant than Christianity, which explicitly claims to be the only correct religion.

What, and atheism does not?'


How is Athiesm arrogant?


Atheism states that humans are the highest beings in existence, and that anything outside the realm of science is false. Closed minded and arrogant.

[Mr. Ron]

No, through arrogance. Atheism is an arrogant belief and so hostility and condescension is natural to it.



Oh dear, you've crossed over to the dark side :\ Noam Chomsky is a joke. And a Stalinist defender/sympathizer. And a paranoid lunatic.

How is atheism arrogant. Thats like saying science and established fact is arrogant.



Yeah, thats why Chomsky is considered one of the best minds of out time, right?

[Mr. Ron]

What, and atheism does not?'



Atheism states that humans are the highest beings in existence, and that anything outside the realm of science is false. Closed minded and arrogant.

Christianity states that god is the highest being, and that most things outside of the bible are false.

[Hababi]

Yeah, thats why Chomsky is considered one of the best minds of out time, right?

So is Bobby Fischer. That doesn't make his insane political rants any more valid. Chomsky is no better than Fischer.


Christianity states that god is the highest being, and that most things outside of the bible are false.


So what's more arrogant? "We are the pinnacle!" or "We are not the pinnacle!"

[Mr. Ron]

So is Bobby Fischer. That doesn't make his insane political rants any more valid. Chomsky is no better than Fischer.

What is so insane about his beliefs?

[Hababi]

What is so insane about his beliefs?

Ummm well you can start with his defense of the Khmar Rouge. Then you can go on to his spreading insane conspiracy theories and making blatantly false statements. Then you can get to his latent anti-semitism.

[Mr. Ron]

So is Bobby Fischer. That doesn't make his insane political rants any more valid. Chomsky is no better than Fischer.



So what's more arrogant? "We are the pinnacle!" or "We are not the pinnacle!"

I don't see how stating that man is good and that we matter to be a bad thing.


Christianity states that man is a no good heathen that is evil from birth. I'd rather be arrogant than apologetic for the way I am.

[Permanent Solution]

Atheism states that humans are the highest beings in existence, and that anything outside the realm of science is false. Closed minded and arrogant.
I'm pretty sure all Athiesm implies in and of itself is a belief that there is no god. No more arrogant than any other religion which states there is a god.

[Hababi]

I don't see how stating that man is good and that we matter to be a bad thing.


It's silly, historically ignorant and dangerous to think that. Mankind is not good. We are driven by greed, and the major events of history are almost exclusively bad ones.


I'm pretty sure all Athiesm implies in and of itself is a belief that there is no god. No more arrogant than any other religion which states there is a god.


So you're admitting that at the very least, atheism is as arrogant as any other belief.

[Permanent Solution]

So you're admitting that at the very least, atheism is as arrogant as any other belief.
I'm saying the belief or lack thereof in a god is equally arrogant no matter whose belief it is. There are other factors beyond that which can make other religions more arrogant though.

[pedro durruti]

I think the arrogance from Christianity comes from the belief that nonbelievers go to hell, while atheists say no such thing. But believing that your view is right is arrogance, if you really want to call believing in something arrogance..

[Permanent Solution]

I don't believe in god is as arrogant as I believe in god.

I don't believe in god but it's cool if you do is less arrogant than I believe in god and if you don't you will go to hell for all eternity.

[Mr. Ron]

It's silly, historically ignorant and dangerous to think that. Mankind is not good. We are driven by greed, and the major events of history are almost exclusively bad ones.



So you're admitting that at the very least, atheism is as arrogant as any other belief.

So we should not matter at all, and just keep on thinking there is no other alternative but your magic man in the clouds?

You need to read up on naturalism as a lifestyle.

[Iskandar]

What, and atheism does not?So you're admitting you're the pot, and I'm the kettle, and we're both the same colour. To paraphrase an old proverb.

[Akira]

This thread is rather entertaining.

[Mr. Ron]

This thread is rather entertaining.

Apparently Falwell was a boy scout compared to me.

[Permanent Solution]

makes sense to me, boy scouts dont like gays either :p

[spitfirejunky]

Atheism states that humans are the highest beings in existence, and that anything outside the realm of science is false. Closed minded and arrogant.

Modern philosophers are generally atheist and don't believe either of those.

[italic zero]

Certainly not the second, but perhaps the first.

[Der Übermensch]

My vote got for dolphins personally...

[cbmartinez]

All I can say on his death is thank God (lol get it)

[Kurrpt]

Well, according to his logic



wouldn't God be punishing him by striking him dead?

[Akira]

Well, according to his logic



wouldn't God be punishing him by striking him dead?

It's only punishment if you go to hell, and he obviously thinks he has a good spot in heaven.

[Jharaski]

Steve, as much as I agree with you, probably more than any other mxer, I have to just say wtf this time.

Atheism is not at all arrogant in and of itself. Surely, some/all atheists think that it's stupid to believe in a god, but how many of them actually lash out unprovoced? I find it far less arrogant to think someone is stupid than to think that they will burn in everlasting hell, for not agreeing with you.

It is perfectly reasonable to liken Bush and Bin Laden in the way that he did - religious(ie over the top fanatics who really aren't religious) people who believe they are right, and the other is wrong. It's not an attack on Christianity or Christians, it's just saying that introducing a god allows evil men a deadly crutch to use against the world. And when both sides are conviced that they are right, and their actions will lead them to everlasting life, there are going to be problems.

Religion is a far more deadly thing to fight over than something like sovereignty

[-1up!-]

This thread is entertaining.

Zero puts a touch of humor into PNWI. By the way I'm not aware of atheism claiming humans are the highest being in existence, because atheism is not a religion and there are no precise "claims" you can put onto it.

Atheism is not believing in the existence of a divine being, for your information, zerokewl. No more, no less than that. There's probably as many atheist philosophies and conceptions of nature and man as there are cells in your body, and that's a fairly large number tbh.

[Danger Bird]

Personally I think cockroaches are a much higher form of life.

[Smokey D]

If you take away God, there is no yardstick to measure the highness of any sort of being.

[-1up!-]

If you take away God, there is no yardstick to measure the highness of any sort of being.

Exactly. It doesn't make any sense to say that atheists value humans as the "highest" beings in existence, because atheists precisely deny the objective standpoint (or objective conscience if you prefer) from which to judge a man up against others on specific criteria. I think a lot of hard Christians, or maybe just Zero, fundamentally misunderstand or squarely refuse to understand what atheism is, because there is an insane amount of generalizations on atheists which go on in this thread, and most of them need to be deconstructed.

"I want to examine that dangerous thing that’s common to Judaism and Christianity as well: the process of non-thinking called faith."
"Many of us saw religion as harmless nonsense. Beliefs might lack all supporting evidence but, we thought, if people needed a crutch for consolation, where's the harm? September 11th changed all that. Revealed faith is not harmless nonsense, it can be lethally dangerous nonsense. Dangerous because it gives people unshakeable confidence in their own righteousness. Dangerous because it gives them false courage to kill themselves, which automatically removes normal barriers to killing others. Dangerous because it teaches enmity to others labelled only by a difference of inherited tradition. And dangerous because we have all bought into a weird respect, which uniquely protects religion from normal criticism. Let's now stop being so damned respectful!"

"Bush and bin Laden are really on the same side: the side of faith and violence against the side of reason and discussion. Both have implacable faith that they are right and the other is evil. Each believes that when he dies he is going to heaven. Each believes that if he could kill the other, his path to paradise in the next world would be even swifter. The delusional "next world" is welcome to both of them. This world would be a much better place without either of them."

Each of those quotes is more extremist, sectarian, and bigoted than anything Falwell ever said.

Actually I find (especially the first quote) that it is an refreshing, intelligent view on the social effects of religion, and I agree to all of it, second quote included. Call me Dawkins if you might, but everything you quoted from him makes a lot more sense than anything you've posted in this thread yet. And the fact you've actually qualified those quotes as extremist and bigoted makes me lol. Hard.

[Reaganista]

What, and atheism does not?'
no atheism isnt a religion we explained this to you years ago

[Reaganista]

The way many liberals target Christianity is fundamentally the same as the way Dixiecrats targeted blacks. Bigotry and intolerance has festered in the ranks of the Democrat party since its inception.

ok

so what's wrong with that
it took em a while, but they finally figured out who deserves to be discriminated against


Reactionary responses aren't inherently extreme. They can be anywhere from mild to severe. Falwell was nowhere close to extreme.
only an extreme reactionary like yourself could think another reactionary was mild

[Mr. Ron]

Steve, for Christ sakes the man thought god sent those planes on 9/11 to punish us for gays. How is that not extreme?

[Chrysostom]

I find it amusing that Falwell's dad wasn't especially religious and his grandfather was out-and-out atheist.

[-1up!-]

Zero would probably think there exists such a thing as extremist atheism. His Richard Dawkins quotes were so extreme I'm still having random nosebleeds.

[Smokey D]

Er, there probably is such a thing as an extremist atheist. I don't see why it would be impossible for someone to be so committed to rationalist principles that they wouldn't use violence to compel others to listen or obey.

[Reaganista]

dude i'm an extremist athiest

but only mildly

[VomitStainedCretin]

Er, there probably is such a thing as an extremist atheist. I don't see why it would be impossible for someone to be so committed to rationalist principles that they wouldn't use violence to compel others to listen or obey.Yeah but if they were truly rational wouldn't they realise that force might not be the best way to convince people they're right. Then again, maybe I'm wrong - after all fundamentalism and hypocrisy go together like the Catholic Church and child molestation.

[Smokey D]

What on earth makes you think atheists are all rational?

[VomitStainedCretin]

What on earth makes you think atheists are all rational?I didn't, you stateddon't see why it would be impossible for someone to be so committed to rationalist principles that they wouldn't use violence to compel others to listen or obey.Therefore I assumed you were ommitting the theoretical non-rationalist atheists.

[Smokey D]

Rationalism like all ideologies has elements that are more extreme than others.

And rationalism isn't the same as rationality. I don't know if I was unclear.

[-1up!-]

Er, there probably is such a thing as an extremist atheist. I don't see why it would be impossible for someone to be so committed to rationalist principles that they wouldn't use violence to compel others to listen or obey.

There are probably violent atheists, but I've never heard of any violence done by atheist groups, at least in the Western world. Irrational rationalists don't seem to run on every street corner.

And you might agree that anything Zero calls extremist would be considered by most sane people as mild.

[Mr. Ron]

There's morons in every group, no denying that. Although I've never heard of an atheist organization conducting themselves violently...

[Iskandar]

There's morons in every group, no denying that. Although I've never heard of an atheist organization conducting themselves violently...That's because atheists don't tend to band together in organizations, as it's not an organized religion ... you can't exactly have a Roman Atheist Church. But individual atheists or otherwise anti-religious people have commited atrocities for sure.

[Mr. Ron]

True true.

[LittlePound]

well as much as i didn't like him before, i heard today of some other things he did. Like start a house to help alcoholics recover, he also started a house for unwed mothers to help them raise there children, and i believe even started a house to take in abused spouses, and many others that i heard listed. While i'm not a big fan of many of the things he said or did i just figured some of his good actions should be mentioned here too.

[-1up!-]

They're drowned and insignificant next to the insane fundamentalist **** he's said and done, though. He's better off dead.

[Mr. Ron]

well as much as i didn't like him before, i heard today of some other things he did. Like start a house to help alcoholics recover, he also started a house for unwed mothers to help them raise there children, and i believe even started a house to take in abused spouses, and many others that i heard listed. While i'm not a big fan of many of the things he said or did i just figured some of his good actions should be mentioned here too.

"I mean, he is a ignorant, vile, intolerant racist, sexist and bigot, but he sure did like to build soup kitchens! So he's cool."

Thats basically what you're saying.

[Kurrpt]

no, he wasn't saying that at all


hes saying

"despite all the bullsh!t he's done, there actually are some GOOD things he has done"

[Mr. Ron]

no, he wasn't saying that at all


hes saying

"despite all the bullsh!t he's done, there actually are some GOOD things he has done"

A lot of bad people have done good things here and there it doesn't change the fact that they were douches.

[Kurrpt]

I don't think he was trying to argue about him being a douche

[VomitStainedCretin]

There's morons in every group, no denying that. Although I've never heard of an atheist organization conducting themselves violently...I suppose Communist guerilla groups could be a counter-example...
A lot of bad people have done good things here and there it doesn't change the fact that they were douches.Hitler probably built plenty of schools and orphanages.

[LittlePound]

"I mean, he is a ignorant, vile, intolerant racist, sexist and bigot, but he sure did like to build soup kitchens! So he's cool."

Thats basically what you're saying.

no, i'm just saying i think to be fair to him that some of the good things that he did should be presented. I said that i didn't care for him that much but in a thread that is about him and thus far has only posted negative things about him i figured it'd be fair to share some of the good things he's done. He has helped change several peoples life for the better and as long as we remember him for the negative things he did i think it's fair to throw a few positives out there as well.

[ringworm]

Hitler probably built plenty of schools and orphanages.
Hamas rebuilds terrorist camps and pays for schools to train more backpack bombers :)

i figured it'd be fair to share some of the good things he's done
dont you watch the media and listen in here, no one is concerned about both sides of the story anymore, look at america for instance, when was the last time some of the aid and support we waste away in other countries gets the front page or any attention


negativity sells just like sex

[Mr. Ron]

no, i'm just saying i think to be fair to him that some of the good things that he did should be presented. I said that i didn't care for him that much but in a thread that is about him and thus far has only posted negative things about him i figured it'd be fair to share some of the good things he's done. He has helped change several peoples life for the better and as long as we remember him for the negative things he did i think it's fair to throw a few positives out there as well.

Yeah but you have to realize his good deeds will always be overshadowed by his retardation.

[Illmatic]

no, i'm just saying i think to be fair to him that some of the good things that he did should be presented. I said that i didn't care for him that much but in a thread that is about him and thus far has only posted negative things about him i figured it'd be fair to share some of the good things he's done. He has helped change several peoples life for the better and as long as we remember him for the negative things he did i think it's fair to throw a few positives out there as well.

you're pulling out the "in Mussolini's Italy all the trains ran on time" argument?

[Danger Bird]

Actually that's not really true, Mussolini didn't make the trains run on time.

[Der Übermensch]

Actually that's not really true, Mussolini didn't make the trains run on time.
Yeah yeah yeah... it doesn't work in an actual debate about Il Duce, but in context I think you know what he means, as do most people.

[Mr. Ron]

Actually guys, I make the trains run on time. True story.

[-1up!-]

I suppose Communist guerilla groups could be a counter-example...

But their atheism is far from being the significant factor in their actions, much less than communist social and economic principles.

Whereas extremist religious groups, Islamic or Christian or Sikh or whatever, act first and foremost upon religious principles.

[Der Übermensch]

Communism equating Atheism isn't true anyways.

[LittlePound]

i'm not trying to make him appear better than he is or defend the things he did or anything. All i did was be fair and present some of the positive things he did as well. I'm not saying that now we all need to bow and kiss his feet and apologize, i just think it is fair to present the good things and not just the bad.

[Danger Bird]

As long as you'd do the same for Hitler or Stalin, fine by me.

[Reaganista]

well stalin beat hitler

and hitler um
makes stalin look good by comparison...

[Smokey D]

Really? What's worse, a high body count or systematised murder?

[Reaganista]

hitler is what's worse

[Iskandar]

I don't see how Hitler's worse than Stalin.

[Reaganista]

unless you mean to say that it's completely impossible to quantify the costs of either then you're wrong

[Iskandar]

unless you mean to say that it's completely impossible to quantify the costs of either then you're wrongYou're still a dick, eh.

I don't think there's a point in arguing that murdering millions of people due to one's paranoid fantasies and desire for power is any better than starting a massive war and genocide because of ... paranoid fantasies and desire for power.

[Reaganista]

leaving aside their extermination policies, even though hitler's were worse, hitler started the worst war ever and stalin ended it

[Smokey D]

hitler is what's worse

Why?

[pedro durruti]

Maybe the fact that Stalin murdered millions and that Hitler started both a massive war and genocide campaign makes him worse. His intentions were to kill, it wasn't just power (or maybe that's how he felt power), while Stalin used murder only as a means to power.

[Smokey D]

But Hitler never intended to start a war on the scale he eventually got.

And does that make Japan worse than Hitler?

[pedro durruti]

Japan? Pretty horrid things were carried in the name of the Japanese state, equal to that of Nazi Germany I think, but can a nation be collectively evil in the same way an individual can?

[Smokey D]

Blah, the ruling cartel or whatever.

[pedro durruti]

Well, I don't know. It doesn't really matter anyways because they were all evil.

[Mr. Ron]

leaving aside their extermination policies, even though hitler's were worse, hitler started the worst war ever and stalin ended it

Body count doesn't lie. Lets not even get into the mass rape that the Russians allowed to happen.

[Reaganista]

Body count doesn't lie
i agree

But Hitler never intended to start a war on the scale he eventually got.

And does that make Japan worse than Hitler?
no

[Der Übermensch]

The Japs were just as bad at the Nazis...
Rape of Nanking...? Unit 731...?

[Mr. Ron]

I don't see how the motivation behind a mass killing spree matters. They only thing that matters is that tons of people got systematically killed, and per capita Stalin killed more.

[Smokey D]

He wasn't systematic about it though.

The only way you could say HItler caused more deaths is by blaming him for everything that happened in WWII. That's unfair because a) lots of WWII happened in Asia without any Nazi imput and b) lots of Nazis/Italians/other allies of the Axis were killed by the Allies, and voiding their proximate accountability isn't fair.

[Reaganista]

The Japs were just as bad at the Nazis...
Rape of Nanking...? Unit 731...?
if by just as bad you mean quantifiably worse

The only way you could say HItler caused more deaths is by blaming him for everything that happened in WWII.
no just everything that was directly his fault

[Smokey D]

So the invasion of Poland and Russia?

[Reaganista]

those would fall under that category yes

[Mr. Ron]

He wasn't systematic about it though.

The only way you could say HItler caused more deaths is by blaming him for everything that happened in WWII. That's unfair because a) lots of WWII happened in Asia without any Nazi imput and b) lots of Nazis/Italians/other allies of the Axis were killed by the Allies, and voiding their proximate accountability isn't fair.

How were the great purges not systematic?

[Smokey D]

I dunno. There's a methodological difference between having people shot in great numbers and having them sent to camps specifically designed to kill people. Even the Gulags weren't really comparable to the death camps.

The purges were spasmodic and reactionary. The Holocaust, once it got going, was not.

[Mr. Ron]

True, but either way, in the end the Russians were responsible for far more deaths.

[Reaganista]

hello we're comparing hitler and stalin here