Fat Tax

[Hababi]

What do you think about the idea of a fat tax, that is, taxing people for being morbidly obese?

A pair of points:
1) Obesity causes a variety of health effects which end up costing tax payers a LOT of money. Heart disease, diabetes, etc.
2) While obesity is often in part due to genes, many morbidly obese people do NOTHING to help themselves and instead pig out at buffets and do no exercise.

So, we tax cigarettes, in part to discourage investment in them (doesn't help very much) and in part because cigarette smoking leads to medical problems that cost tax payers money. So, why not tax morbid obesity, too?

.1% for every five lbs greater than 30 lbs over the ideal body weight range.

[Iskandar]

Discrimination. Tax unhealthy food instead.

[GreyHam]

absolutely. last time i looked we didnt live in fascist regime

[Der Übermensch]

Why not just do a junk food tax, or a buffet tax...?

[Hababi]

Why not just do a junk food tax, or a buffet tax...?

(this is a little bit of devil's advocate):
Because then the fat people just pay the tax, continue their unhealthy ways, and have even less money to actually spend on health care, thus increasing the bill on the taxpayers beyond what you'll get from the tax revenue.

[Iskandar]

(this is a little bit of devil's advocate):
Because then the fat people just pay the tax, continue their unhealthy ways, and have even less money to actually spend on health care, thus increasing the bill on the taxpayers beyond what you'll get from the tax revenue.
First of all, get public healthcare in America. Good public healthcare.

[A Spoonful Supreme]

this is tough not to let my prejudice of lazy fat people get in the way...

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

Everyone's body is different; there is no "ideal body weight range". Or rather, everyone's is different, and it would be difficult to determine per person

Some people's bodies are naturally fat, and for them to not be would be unhealthy

[Yunjin Kim]

Let the fat people die for all I care. Damn sight fairer than taxing them for being obese.

[lfantwister]

Or: privatise all healthcare so the fat people can eventually pay for their fat-related problems without the government interfering

[Yunjin Kim]

Or: privatise all healthcare so the fat people can eventually pay for their fat-related problems without the government interfering

It was going good until you said

"Privatise all healthcare"

=|

[pearlsjam482]

Or: privatise all healthcare so the fat people can eventually pay for their fat-related problems without the government interfering

And then the people who can't afford insurance or healthcare get to suffer :thumb:

I like it. Keep the fat, kill off the poor.

[Yunjin Kim]

And then the people who can't afford insurance or healthcare get to suffer :thumb:

I like it. Keep the fat, kill off the poor.

I totally agree.

[beso negro]

make overweight people pay more for health insurance. Isn't it that simple?

[samariah]

It's going to take more than taxes to curb the obesity epidemic. We need better healthcare, better education and emphasis on proper nutrition and exercise. The way our society is structured--fast food everywhere, technology, television,etc--all factors into why we have more and more obese people. Personally, I think part of it has to due with the way our health care system focuses more on cure than prevention. If society truely enforced good nutrition as a good deterrent to a variety of our health woes, well, we wouldnt have so many of them. Its complicated.

[Yunjin Kim]

make overweight people pay more for health insurance. Isn't it that simple?

Following your logic, the people who have genetic disposition to certain diseases should pay more also.

I like the cut of your jib.

[pearlsjam482]

It's going to take more than taxes to curb the obesity epidemic. We need better healthcare, better education and emphasis on proper nutrition and exercise. The way our society is structured--fast food everywhere, technology, television,etc--all factors into why we have more and more obese people. Personally, I think part of it has to due with the way our health care system focuses more on cure than prevention. If society truly enforced good nutrition as a good deterrent to a variety of our health woes, well, we wouldn't have so many of them. Its complicated.

I agree, if we did more to teach people not to eat so much. I don't think it's so much what we eat, but how much of it we eat.

[spitfirejunky]

Discrimination. Tax unhealthy food instead.

Agreed 100%. It's also just not logical to tax people who, in rare cases, may not have any control over their weight.

[beso negro]

the problem is also the food pyramid. there is no reason why anyone should be eating 6-11 servings of grains. especially fat people. only 1 serving of grains is appropriate. I don't eat any.

Following your logic, the people who have genetic disposition to certain diseases should pay more also.

I like the cut of your jib.

why not? its the same reason why kids pay more for car insurance.

[pearlsjam482]

Yeah, the food pyramid is silly.

[Yunjin Kim]

Basically, people should be taught the difference between hunger and appetite.

[pearlsjam482]

:lol: Only in this country do people need to be "taught" these things.

[samariah]

I think taxing food would just be putting a band aid on the issue to an extent. We need to work at things that make people actually want to not eat so much crap instead of leaving people in the situation where they still want to eat the food and inevitably will continue to do so, and just pay money for it.

[samariah]

[QUOTE=beso negro;14681768]the problem is also the food pyramid. there is no reason why anyone should be eating 6-11 servings of grains. especially fat people. only 1 serving of grains is appropriate. I don't eat any.



[QUOTE]

this too, for sure.

[lunchforthesky]

By that logic shouldn't we also tax extremely skinny/anorexics as they equally cost the tax payer.

Oh and anyone with mental health problems.

[beso negro]

Agreed 100%. It's also just not logical to tax people who, in rare cases, may not have any control over their weight.

yea but that can't happen. what is unhealthy food and what is not is debatable. Fat people should not at all be touching grains and starches, but for some of us those two things are good and healthy. How much sugar makes something unhealthy? hard to tell. depends on the type of sugar.

Milk has also been known to cause obesity. Tax the hell out of that then? no, impractical.

Everybody has a different metabolic type.

[Yunjin Kim]

Hell, while we're at it, let's tax the people with cancer because they will die from it eventually and cost the taxpayers.

[Der Übermensch]

(this is a little bit of devil's advocate):
Because then the fat people just pay the tax, continue their unhealthy ways, and have even less money to actually spend on health care, thus increasing the bill on the taxpayers beyond what you'll get from the tax revenue.

But we don't have a lung cancer tax, or an emphysema tax... We just tax the cigarettes...

[pearlsjam482]

By that logic shouldn't we also tax extremely skinny/anorexics as they equally cost the tax payer.

Oh and anyone with mental health problems.

Only the ones who are unattractive!

/sarcasm

[samariah]

But we don't have a lung cancer tax, or an emphysema tax... We just tax the cigarettes...

See, with food though its a little different. We all need food every day to survive. On the other hand, cigarettes are not an essential for survival at all. So, people are not going to agree on what amounts of foods and specifically which foods are unhealthy like they can agree that smoking, no matter what, is unhealthy.

[Yunjin Kim]

You can't tax the food because it's unhealthy. It's everyone's own fault for eating there. I'd love to blame McDonalds. I actually really ****ing do, but I can't. Because McDonald's does what it says it'll do: Serve food. It's up the the people to choose to eat there or not.

We should, from the beggining, be teaching our kids healthy eating habits. Limiting junk food you buy, eating with your kids at the table. Fast food has become too convenient, however. It's not their fault. Still, healthy food options are out there, and just as convenient. People need to fill their hunger, not their appetite.

At school they should serve healthier food, and teach their students good eating habits.

In the end, it's up to each country if they want to make the effort or not. People just need to go the extra mile. Hell, it's not even an extra mile. Just eat less junk. There's a majority of factors that can easily be filled to get on the road to healthy eating.

[beso negro]

also dark chocolate. a recent study shows its benefits for cardiovascular health, lower blood pressure, and improve insulin resistance (using it in moderation of course). Tax that?

For fast food restaurants, you can't make them charge more. What you can do is change what they use, like they did with canola oil (even though i think canola oil is almost just as bad). They can make McDonald's use only organic meat. I believe Burger King is starting this. they can make McDonald's lower the price of their salads idk.

you can't tax food, but you can influence what people buy by lowering prices. Lower the cost of vegetables i say.

[Jon]

You shouldn't tax fat people.

You should kill them.

Or at least lock them up indoors till they are a size 8 (UK)

[samariah]

also dark chocolate. a recent study shows its benefits for cardiovascular health, lower blood pressure, and improve insulin resistance (using it in moderation of course). Tax that?

For fast food restaurants, you can't make them charge more. What you can do is change what they use, like they did with canola oil (even though i think canola oil is almost just as bad). They can make McDonald's use only organic meat. I believe Burger King is starting this. they can make McDonald's lower the price of their salads idk.

you can't tax food, but you can influence what people buy by lowering prices. Lower the cost of vegetables i say.

Yea, at the student union at my school its so easy to see this. A salad costs around 5 dollars, a fruit cup that has around 1 serving of chopped pineapple or strawberries is 3 dollars, etc while a burger is a dollar something, a slice of pizza is a little over a dollar and then of course there are loads of baked goods for less than a dollar. Of course people don't want to pay more money when they can get something else for less.

[lunchforthesky]

You shouldn't tax fat people.

You should kill them.

Or at least lock them up indoors till they are a size 8 (UK)

Oh come on,

A size 10 isn't that bad.

[Jon]

OK, fine, size 10.

My girlfriend is a 10. But like I'm a 4-6 so I'm biased.

[Kaleid]

Yeah, you should listen to Perfect 10 by The Beautiful South :p

[SoulSeekerz]

I am a female size 3, very thin, at one time I was borderline anorexic. Should there be a tax for people who are too thin?

[lunchforthesky]

I am a female size 3, very thin, at one time I was borderline anorexic. Should there be a tax for people who are too thin?

No Serenity is just his usual stupid self.

Although by his logic yes you should.

[SoulSeekerz]

lol, I am pretty new here, so I don't know Serenity,but thanks.
Is he always logical?

[lunchforthesky]

Very rarely.

[Hababi]

Or: privatise all healthcare so the fat people can eventually pay for their fat-related problems without the government interfering

So what happens then when the 500 lb man who never invested a dime in health care (or dieting/exercise) ends up in the hospital with congestive heart failure? :\

[lunchforthesky]

So what happens then when the 500 lb man who never invested a dime in health care (or dieting/exercise) ends up in the hospital with congestive heart failure? :\

You accept that is the way the state works.

[samariah]

So what happens then when the 500 lb man who never invested a dime in health care (or dieting/exercise) ends up in the hospital with congestive heart failure? :\

what happens when the 150 lb man who never invested a dime in health care (or dieting/exercise) ends up in the hospital with congestive heart failure?

it isn't just obese people that have heart disease.

[Iskandar]

I'm telling you: Public healthcare like any decent First World nation, then tax fast food more heavily than healthy food if you want to discourage people from eating it.

[SoulSeekerz]

So what happens then when the 500 lb man who never invested a dime in health care (or dieting/exercise) ends up in the hospital with congestive heart failure? :\
Yes, but logically the 500 pound man is doing his part by fueling the ecomony with more money than most on pizzas, burgers, and twinkies, plus he will die very young, and will save the government from paying out social security benefits.

[Danger Bird]

Zero, I honestly don't believe you're serious. Please don't spam PNaWI.

[SoulSeekerz]

what happens when the 150 lb man who never invested a dime in health care (or dieting/exercise) ends up in the hospital with congestive heart failure?

it isn't just obese people that have heart disease.
You are brilliant Samariah. I will bet you're female.

[samariah]

Its called sarcasm. He's trying to justify taxing people for being obese as if only obese people get heart disease. We might as well tax every guy or woman with a fast metabolism who eats shitty and doesn't exercise and is unhealthy as a result of it according to his argument.

[beso negro]

you can't tax fast food. you can't determine what is fast food and what isn't. I can get a sandwich pretty quickly from panera, so it that fast food?

How is a place like Denny's not as bad as Macdonald's? Eating at any restaurant can cause weight gain.

[SoulSeekerz]

Its called sarcasm.
Actually, I was complimenting you on making a very valid point. Nice to meet you lol:wave:

[Iskandar]

you can't tax fast food. you can't determine what is fast food and what isn't. I can get a sandwich pretty quickly from panera, so it that fast food?

How is a place like Denny's not as bad as Macdonald's? Eating at any restaurant can cause weight gain.
Criteria would have to be developed based on the nutritional content of each restaurant's food.

[samariah]

oh ok, ha ha. :o

[Hababi]

Criteria would have to be developed based on the nutritional content of each restaurant's food.
What, you mean average content? Like, you'll take the median caloric value? Some restaurants have some really healthy items and some incredibly unhealthy ones.


what happens when the 150 lb man who never invested a dime in health care (or dieting/exercise) ends up in the hospital with congestive heart failure?


Depending on height and frame, 150 lbs is healthy. 500 is not, unless you're 9 ft tall.

[SoulSeekerz]

What, you mean average content? Like, you'll take the median caloric value? Some restaurants have some really healthy items and some incredibly unhealthy ones.



Depending on height and frame, 150 lbs is healthy. 500 is not, unless you're 9 ft tall.
Your logic is incorrect, since you are assuming that every 150 pound male is healthy.
Many are heavy smokers, have health problems, and even though they are not obese, have not taken care of themselves very well. How does that group fit in to your fat taxation proposal?

[Iskandar]

What, you mean average content? Like, you'll take the median caloric value? Some restaurants have some really healthy items and some incredibly unhealthy ones.I'd say tax per item in that case ... but that'd be too difficult to enforce. No, tax by average content, and that'll encourage restaurants to serve healthier food in general.

[Hababi]

Your logic is incorrect, since you are assuming that every 150 pound male is healthy.
Many are heavy smokers, have health problems, and even though they are not obese, have not taken care of themselves very well. How does that group fit in to your fat taxation proposal?

Yeah but we already have a lot of taxes for smoking, so your point is taken care of.

I'd say tax per item in that case ... but that'd be too difficult to enforce. No, tax by average content, and that'll encourage restaurants to serve healthier food in general.

Or it'll just encourage them to put a few outrageously low-calorie items that no one will want on their menu, to weigh down (tee hee) the mean.

[Iskandar]

Or it'll just encourage them to put a few outrageously low-calorie items that no one will want on their menu, to weigh down (tee hee) the mean.Meh. Do you have a better way to tax food, besides taking ever single item on the menu into consideration?

Perhaps simple limits on caloric values would be a better method. You cna have your hamburger, but you won't gain three kilograms (okay, pounds) from it.

[samariah]

What, you mean average content? Like, you'll take the median caloric value? Some restaurants have some really healthy items and some incredibly unhealthy ones.



Depending on height and frame, 150 lbs is healthy. 500 is not, unless you're 9 ft tall.

There are other factors that contribute to overall health besides being in a healthy weight range even if a person doesn't smoke, etc. Healthy weight does not necessarily=healthy.

[beso negro]

Criteria would have to be developed based on the nutritional content of each restaurant's food.

but America's government is no good at figuring out nutrition. They say whole grain bread is good. Well, i'm sorry but when the 3rd or 4th ingredient is high fructose corn syrup, i would have to disagree.

Also they took coconut oil off the selves. they say the saturated fat is bad. they don't see that there is good saturated fat just like there is good cholesterol. coconut oil will actually help people lose weight becuase the saturated fat in it is burned instantly. cholesterol has been blamed for all health problems in America, yet many studies say people who consume the most cholesterol live longer. but knowing America they could up the price of eggs. http://www.mercola.com/2005/may/28/cholesterol_heart.htm

[SoulSeekerz]

Yeah, but there are still a lot of unhealthy 150 pound male non-smokers too.
I would say your tax is discriminatory in nature, and would never have a chance of passing in the Congress or the Senate. It is based pretty much on your bias and dislike for fat people, therefore, it would never become a law.
Since Morbid Obesity is a disease, instead of taxing the individual, the country should provide free health care to help the morbidly obese treat and eliminate their medical problem.

[Iskandar]

but America's government is no good at figuring out nutrition. They say whole grain bread is good. Well, i'm sorry but when the 3rd or 4th ingredient is high fructose corn syrup, i would have to disagree.:/ America's government isn't good at a lot of things. But if they have regulatory bodies like the FDA, I don't see why they can't make an effort to quantify potentially deadly foods.

[beso negro]

Haha don't get me started on the FDA

[Iskandar]

Haha don't get me started on the FDAI thought they did their job at least some of the time. But I admit I'm not too knowledge on nutrition.

[beso negro]

there is so much corruption in the FDA. Drug companies often times pay the FDA to review and approve their drugs. The drug companies are the customers of the FDA. What business wants to make their customers unhappy?

Also pharmaceutical companies like to pick and choose their clinical findings to make their drugs look better than they really are. This leads to side-effects not being better address. Side effects and "problems" with widely prescribed FDA approved ADHD drugs send 3,100 people to the ER every year -- 80 percent of them children.

It's funny because ADHD is not caused by anything other than diet. But americans will never subscribe to the idea that ADHD can be prevented or reversed through dietary changes. They would rather go to their doctor or psychiatrist and get a prescription for a little bottle of pills that will ostensibly "cure" their or their child's behavioral problems. More money to the drug companies.

Basically, a drug only has to be better than a sugar pill to be approved.


http://www.newstarget.com/011401.html

[Iskandar]

there is so much corruption in the FDA. Drug companies often times pay the FDA to review and approve their drugs. The drug companies are the customers of the FDA. What business wants to make their customers unhappy?

Also pharmaceutical companies like to pick and choose their clinical findings to make their drugs look better than they really are. This leads to side-effects not being better address. Side effects and "problems" with widely prescribed FDA approved ADHD drugs send 3,100 people to the ER every year -- 80 percent of them children.

It's funny because ADHD is not caused by anything other than diet. But americans will never subscribe to the idea that ADHD can be prevented or reversed through dietary changes. They would rather go to their doctor or psychiatrist and get a prescription for a little bottle of pills that will ostensibly "cure" their or their child's behavioral problems. More money to the drug companies.

Basically, a drug only has to be better than a sugar pill to be approved.
:/ I knew pharmaceutical companies in America were a racket. Thanks for the post.

[SoulSeekerz]

I wonder is there are any drugs to treat morbid obesity, but the pharm companies are holding them back.

[beso negro]

I wonder is there are any drugs to treat morbid obesity, but the pharm companies are holding them back.

why would they do that.

again, the FDA will approve anything if they get the money. Look at Wellbutrin. It is used to treat obesity and depression yet Wellbutrin is the third leading cause of drug related seizures with cocaine being number one.

it was FDA approved. still is.

[italic zero]

seizures aren't so bad

[beso negro]

yea i'd pay to see a 500 pound man have a seizure

[Dr Hooch]

I wonder is there are any drugs to treat morbid obesity, but the pharm companies are holding them back.

What, the one time that "the good of the people" and "profit" would coincide they wouldn't do it?

[Dave de Sylvia]

It's funny because ADHD is not caused by anything other than diet. But americans will never subscribe to the idea that ADHD can be prevented or reversed through dietary changes.
um.

[spitfirejunky]

From what I know, hyperactive disorders are dietary, but not attention deficit disorders.

[beso negro]

um.

you honestly think ADHD is a neurological disorder that requires a medical diagnosis and treatment?

diet is the root cause of pretty much everything.

[I Am a Hat]

what should you change about your diet to fix it

[spitfirejunky]

you honestly think ADHD is a neurological disorder that requires a medical diagnosis and treatment?

diet is the root cause of pretty much everything.

For every disease you name that's dietary, I can name one that isn't.

And we all know the trouble with the US is in diagnosis. Just because a bunch of half-wit doctors tell every other kid they have ADHD, it doesn't mean that one kid might not actually have a physiological case of ADHD.

[beso negro]

For every disease you name that's dietary, I can name one that isn't.

name one that is

studies proving connection between diet and hyperactivity disorders
http://www.nutraingredients-usa.com/news/ng.asp?n=73134-neptune-technologies-bioressources-nko-adhd
http://www.newstarget.com/020585.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/healthmain.html?in_article_id=391503&in_page_id=1774

what should you change about your diet to fix it

* eat only grass fed meats
* eat salmon and other cold water fish
* supplement with salmon oil/krill/cold liver capsules
* eat walnuts
* eat alfalfa sprouts on sandwiches or salads
* cook with organic olive oil/coconut oil

[Der Übermensch]

Well, it could be worse... you could be saying Thetans are the root cause of pretty much everything :p

[spitfirejunky]

name one that is

studies proving connection between diet and hyperactivity disorders
http://www.nutraingredients-usa.com/news/ng.asp?n=73134-neptune-technologies-bioressources-nko-adhd
http://www.newstarget.com/020585.html

http://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/guide/attention-deficit-hyperactivity-disorder-adhd-cause

Cystic fibrosis.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Well any idiot could work out that a high-sugar diet will worsen hyperactivity symptoms. None of the reports you cited even come close to claiming it's "all dietary" or even close.

[beso negro]

http://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/guide/attention-deficit-hyperactivity-disorder-adhd-cause

Cystic fibrosis.

Cystic fibrosis can be treated and avoided with proper diet. The omega-3 fatty acids in fish oil will markedly reduce a child's breathing difficulties associated with cystic fibrosis and can improve the changes in the organs affected by the disease.

http://www.oilofpisces.com/emphysema.html

btw that ADHD story is crap. Brain structure the cause of ADHD? yea that is why ADHD is only prevalent in western world. bullshit. also that "diet has no effect" study, put together by drug companies.

Well any idiot could work out that a high-sugar diet will worsen hyperactivity symptoms. None of the reports you cited even come close to claiming it's "all dietary" or even close.

If omega-3s stop ADHD then that mean it is completely diet.

[Der Übermensch]

There is just as much evidence for a genetic cause of ADHD as a dietary one.

[beso negro]

there is zero evidence of genes in ADHD

[AA-12]

Anyone who supports this is pretty retarded.

[spitfirejunky]

Cystic fibrosis can be treated and avoided with proper diet. The omega-3 fatty acids in fish oil will markedly reduce a child's breathing difficulties associated with cystic fibrosis and can improve the changes in the organs affected by the disease.

http://www.oilofpisces.com/emphysema.html

btw that ADHD story is crap. Brain structure the cause of ADHD? yea that is why ADHD is only prevalent in western world. bullshit. also that "diet has no effect" study, put together by drug companies.



If omega-3s stop ADHD then that mean it is completely diet.

It's caused from a dopamine shortage, which can be directly correlated to any other psychological disease associated with a shortage of an important neurotransmitter.

Cystic fibrosis is not caused from a poor diet, so you've pretty much missed the point.

And address Spat's post.

[Dave de Sylvia]

If omega-3s stop ADHD then that mean it is completely diet.
None of the reports you cited came to such a ludicrous conclusion. My point still stands.

[beso negro]

It's caused from a dopamine shortage, which can be directly correlated to any other psychological disease associated with a shortage of an important neurotransmitter.


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FDN/is_4_8/ai_111303983/pg_4

yea, not enough omega-3s in the diet (americans and the western world never get enough) leads to dopamine shortage.

Why fight that with Ritalin when a much safer alternative is at hand.

Cystic fibrosis is not caused from a poor diet, so you've pretty much missed the point.

yes it is genetic, but it can be taken care of with proper diet.

None of the reports you cited came to such a ludicrous conclusion. My point still stands.

you don't understand how diet works then

[Dave de Sylvia]

You forgot to address my point and the fact that the articles you posted explicitly reject your conclusion.

[beso negro]

how?

In an omega-3 deficiency, the release of dopamine from the vesicular storage pool under tyramine stimulation is 90-percent lower than in rats receiving an adequate omega-3 intake.

Krill oil = omega-3's

more omega-3's = more dopamine

more dopamine = omg no more ADHD

[spitfirejunky]

yes it is genetic, but it can be taken care of with proper diet.

Are you arguing that diet is a significant factor in preventing all disease, or are you arguing that diet causes all disease? You're not being consistent at all.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FDN/is_4_8/ai_111303983/pg_4

yea, not enough omega-3s in the diet (americans and the western world never get enough) leads to dopamine shortage.

Why fight that with Ritalin when a much safer alternative is at hand.

You're missing the point again. You said that ADHD is caused by a poor diet, and yet all the sources you cite give direct mention to how it can be prevented with a proper diet, but not how it's a "root cause" of it.

[Dave de Sylvia]

how?

In an omega-3 deficiency, the release of dopamine from the vesicular storage pool under tyramine stimulation is 90-percent lower than in rats receiving an adequate omega-3 intake.

Krill oil = omega-3's

more omega-3's = more dopamine

more dopamine = omg no more ADHD

http://www.nutraingredients-usa.com/news/ng.asp?n=73134-neptune-technologies-bioressources-nko-adhd

"Drugs are useful resources in the treatment of ADHD but medication is not always the best answer: over prescription, drug induced toxicity and the high cost of treatment are recognized problems of therecommended ADHD management guidelines," said Neptune's medical director, Dr. Marius Gangal. "NKOT will help patients reduce or even avoid medication and improve their quality of life."

It seems these guys have no problem admitting that ADHD exists.

[beso negro]

i will admit that genetics play a role in everything too. you notice some people eat **** and have perfect skin and good health. Others not so much.

people prone to hormone related diseases and cognitive disorders have to get proper diet.

diet is a significant factor in preventing all disease, yes.

and no study is going to come out, ever, and say that diet is the sole reason for anything. its impossible to test. they can only say "prevent or slow."

[Jon]

I have one fundamental problem with taxing foods instead of fatties - I love unhealthy foods :(

The day they tax Pork Scratchings is the day I emigrate tbh

[ghostfacekillah]

Cystic fibrosis can be treated and avoided with proper diet. The omega-3 fatty acids in fish oil will markedly reduce a child's breathing difficulties associated with cystic fibrosis and can improve the changes in the organs affected by the disease.

http://www.oilofpisces.com/emphysema.html

btw that ADHD story is crap. Brain structure the cause of ADHD? yea that is why ADHD is only prevalent in western world. bullshit. also that "diet has no effect" study, put together by drug companies.



If omega-3s stop ADHD then that mean it is completely diet.
Um, CF is caused by mutations in the CFTR gene. There are several mutations that have been found in the CFTR gene that can cause CF. The most common is a deletion of three nucleotides that result in the loss of an amino acid. Because this amino acid is lost, the protein does not fold correctly and is marked for destruction by the cell. Other mutations, such as premature stop mutations, have been found in a large percentage of patients suffering from CF.

Diet can't change genetic make up. Someone with CF could take in all the Omega-3's possible and CF would still happen.

[Dave de Sylvia]

i will admit that genetics play a role in everything too. you notice some people eat **** and have perfect skin and good health. Others not so much.

people prone to hormone related diseases and cognitive disorders have to get proper diet.

diet is a significant factor in preventing all disease, yes.

and no study is going to come out, ever, and say that diet is the sole reason for anything. its impossible to test. they can only say "prevent or slow."
Um, no. Studies tend to come out supporting things that are true. Your assertion that ADHD is 100% caused by bad diet is patently untrue, which is why it's only non-scientists who would draw such a ridiculous conclusion.

[beso negro]

yes, CF is genetic, i said that. diet will help.

I can't say too much about it though. I been wanting to read this story:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=16923213
(It's a book on Mediterranean diet and cystic fibrosis)

but the fact that CF is only common in the western world is enough proff for me that diet plays a heavy role.

Um, no. Studies tend to come out supporting things that are true. Your assertion that ADHD is 100% caused by bad diet is patently untrue, which is why it's only non-scientists who would draw such a ridiculous conclusion.

there is nothing that proves ADHD is 100% caused by anything. diet is the only thing that makes sense.

[Dave de Sylvia]

or genetics

[ghostfacekillah]

yes, CF is genetic, i said that. diet will help.

I can't say too much about it though. I been wanting to read this story:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=16923213
(It's a book on Mediterranean diet and cystic fibrosis)

but the fact that CF is only common in the western world is enough proff for me that diet plays a heavy role.



there is nothing that proves ADHD is 100% caused by anything. diet is the only thing that makes sense.
CF is vastly genetic. Any effect diet would have would be small, and help only in the comfort of patients. CF occurs because of mutations in the CFTR gene. Accept this.

yes it is genetic, but it can be taken care of with proper diet.

So food can change genetic construct?

If omega-3s stop ADHD then that mean it is completely diet.
Seems like you're changing your argument...

[beso negro]

CF is vastly genetic. Any effect diet would have would be small, and help only in the comfort of patients. CF occurs because of mutations in the CFTR gene. Accept this.

accepted. but even people with CF will agree that a right diet is essential for them. google it.

Seems like you're changing your argument

nope. i'm not saying kids who have ADHD, don't have it. its just that it is their own fault, or their parents, for not eating right.

you can't argue with Hippocrates. He described a condition that seems to be compatible with what we now know as ADHD. He described patients who had…. “quickened responses to sensory experience, but also less tenaciousness because the soul moves on quickly to the next impression”. Hippocrates attributed this condition to an “overbalance of fire over water”. His remedy for this “overbalance” was “barley rather than wheat bread, fish rather than meat, water drinks, and many natural and diverse physical activities”.

So food can change genetic construct?

:lol:

now im leaving to study calc. natural medicine is the future. look into it. or not. just don't let your kids OD on ADHD drugs.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Don't overdose on logic either, apparently.

[SoulSeekerz]

Well, that was an interesting read.

[Der Übermensch]

You can't argue with Hippocrates
Appeal to Authority is a logical fallacy... esspecialy when he is over 2000 years old.

And yes, I will argue with him. He believed in the four humors for instance.

I'm not saying he's dead wrong on everything, but his contribution to medicine is more the professionalism than any actual medical procedures or facts.

[ghostfacekillah]

accepted. but even people with CF will agree that a right diet is essential for them. google it.
That doesn't mean a diet will help them overcome the disease and be cured. That can only be done by scientists coming up with new drugs for the big, bad drug companies to sell to dying people.



nope. i'm not saying kids who have ADHD, don't have it. its just that it is their own fault, or their parents, for not eating right.
So you're saying there's absolutely no genetic link for ADHD?

you can't argue with Hippocrates. He described a condition that seems to be compatible with what we now know as ADHD. He described patients who had…. “quickened responses to sensory experience, but also less tenaciousness because the soul moves on quickly to the next impression”. Hippocrates attributed this condition to an “overbalance of fire over water”. His remedy for this “overbalance” was “barley rather than wheat bread, fish rather than meat, water drinks, and many natural and diverse physical activities”.
So now you're quoting ancient greeks as evidence for current medical claims? That's real logical, considering the advancements made by modern medicine...

:lol:
You didn't answer my question...

CF will still happen, and will still have horrible effects for the patients, regardless of diet.

now im leaving to study calc. natural medicine is the future. look into it. or not. just don't let your kids OD on ADHD drugs.
Natural medicine was practiced for centuries. Why would we regress? I'll agree that ADHD and conditions like it are extremely over-diagnosed. Conditions like CF, however, have to be treated through un-natural (medical) means. A diet can only do so much, but I guess you don't realize that.

[John Paul Harrison]

sorry, but being fat is not a crime.

taxing the food is okay. higher health insurance for obesity is fair. but taxes on just being fat is a no go.

[sweboy]

Serenity, comedy goes in the Pit. Nice work though.

[SoulSeekerz]

Serenity, comedy goes in the Pit. Nice work though.
Wow! I though this Serenity chap WAS being serious,lol

[Smokey D]

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with taxing expensive behaviors like smoking or eating fatty/carcinogenic foods.

[beso negro]

So you're saying there's absolutely no genetic link for ADHD?

yup

You didn't answer my question...

it isn't possible

Natural medicine was practiced for centuries. Why would we regress? I'll agree that ADHD and conditions like it are extremely over-diagnosed. Conditions like CF, however, have to be treated through un-natural (medical) means. A diet can only do so much, but I guess you don't realize that.

you call this progress?

http://www.mercola.com/2005/aug/13/toxic_drugs.htm

diet/exercise is the best way to treat, prevent, and cure almost everything.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Nobody is arguing that diet has a large effect on your ability to prevent and recover from illnesses. You seem to be convinced that diet is the sole cause of ADHD and you refuse to acknowledge anybody who disagrees with you.

[lfantwister]

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with taxing expensive behaviors like smoking or eating fatty/carcinogenic foods.
If health insurance were mandatory I would disagree with you (but I can't in all good conscience)

[beso negro]

You seem to be convinced that diet is the sole cause of ADHD and you refuse to acknowledge anybody who disagrees with you.

why should I? no study will prove me wrong. there is no proof that ADHD is genetic just just there is no proof that depression is caused by a chemical imbalance. People will believe anything drug companies tell them.

[lfantwister]

People will believe anything drug companies tell them.
Thanks for revealing the Truth to us

[Dave de Sylvia]

why should I? no study will prove me wrong. there is no proof that ADHD is genetic just just there is no proof that depression is caused by a chemical imbalance. People will believe anything drug companies tell them.
The burden of proof is on you.

[Kurrpt]

i made a thread some time ago, outlining certain guide lines in which fatties must adhere to some time ago

many found my ideas perposterous

[Meatplow]

this thread is silly

fat tax rofl

[ghostfacekillah]

you call this progress?

http://www.mercola.com/2005/aug/13/toxic_drugs.htm

diet/exercise is the best way to treat, prevent, and cure almost everything.

Yeah, especially when the disorder is genetic and all that a better diet will do is help curve some of the symptoms/discomforts for a while. Diet and exercise does a lot for fixing genetic mutations, and curing things like cancer, AIDS, and a whole host of other diseases similar to those.

Going back to my question you refuse to answer, how will diet fix problems occuring in the make-up of the body? How will it restore 3 deleted amino acids from a strand of DNA or supress a premature stop codon? How will it tell cancerous cells when to stop dividing or keep HIV from destroying vital components of the immune system? How will diet and exercise help fight viruses that can only be destroyed by vaccination (because, as I'm sure you know, the only way we are able to fight viruses is by injecting inactivated or highly less potent forms of a virus into our bodies so our immune system will be able to recognize it and remember it as a foreign substance) or keep bacteria from multiplying?

I'm mainly concered with your idiotic opinion on CF and your idea that somehow diet can change genetic construct, but I figured I'd give the whole ADHD thing a go as well.

why should I? no study will prove me wrong. there is no proof that ADHD is genetic just just there is no proof that depression is caused by a chemical imbalance. People will believe anything drug companies tell them.
Here are some links:
http://www.well.ox.ac.uk/~simon/adhd/adhd_overview.shtml
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleId=170100932
http://www2.mc.duke.edu/adhdprogram/rschgenetics.htm
http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/course/gn301/Supplements/ADHD_Paper.html

ADHD is, in all likelihood, influenced by both genetic and environmental factors (as most behavioral characteristics are). I HIGHLY doubt diet has an overwhelming influence, much less sole influence.

[spitfirejunky]

i will admit that genetics play a role in everything too. you notice some people eat **** and have perfect skin and good health. Others not so much.

people prone to hormone related diseases and cognitive disorders have to get proper diet.

diet is a significant factor in preventing all disease, yes.

and no study is going to come out, ever, and say that diet is the sole reason for anything. its impossible to test. they can only say "prevent or slow."

Well that last point pretty much puts you in a position to concede.

[Crapdragoon]

man if i got taxed for being fat i would of been hella broke for a long time.


This is one of thoses things thats never gonna happen

[Amit]

oh god i hope it does

hell yes fat tax

it encourages people to stay fit and it lightens the load on the dying US healthcare system

and the only people who could afford getting fat will also die out faster which is good because they're stupid and ugly

oh and fat argh i hate fatties >:[

[SoulSeekerz]

Interesting Article:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070510/ap_on_he_me/thin_fat_people

LONDON - If it really is what's on the inside that counts, then a lot of thin people might be in trouble. Some doctors now think that the internal fat surrounding vital organs like the heart, liver or pancreas — invisible to the naked eye — could be as dangerous as the more obvious external fat that bulges underneath the skin.
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"Being thin doesn't automatically mean you're not fat," said Dr. Jimmy Bell, a professor of molecular imaging at Imperial College, London. Since 1994, Bell and his team have scanned nearly 800 people with MRI machines to create "fat maps" showing where people store fat.

According to the data, people who maintain their weight through diet rather than exercise are likely to have major deposits of internal fat, even if they are otherwise slim. "The whole concept of being fat needs to be redefined," said Bell, whose research is funded by Britain's Medical Research Council.

Without a clear warning signal — like a rounder middle — doctors worry that thin people may be lulled into falsely assuming that because they're not overweight, they're healthy.

"Just because someone is lean doesn't make them immune to diabetes or other risk factors for heart disease," said Dr. Louis Teichholz, chief of cardiology at Hackensack Hospital in New Jersey, who was not involved in Bell's research.

Even people with normal Body Mass Index scores — a standard obesity measure that divides your weight by the square of your height — can have surprising levels of fat deposits inside.

Of the women scanned by Bell and his colleagues, as many as 45 percent of those with normal BMI scores (20 to 25) actually had excessive levels of internal fat. Among men, the percentage was nearly 60 percent.

Relating the news to what Bell calls "TOFIs" — people who are "thin outside, fat inside" — is rarely uneventful. "The thinner people are, the bigger the surprise," he said, adding the researchers even found TOFIs among people who are professional models.

According to Bell, people who are fat on the inside are essentially on the threshold of being obese. They eat too many fatty, sugary foods — and exercise too little to work it off — but they are not eating enough to actually be fat. Scientists believe we naturally accumulate fat around the belly first, but at some point, the body may start storing it elsewhere.

Still, most experts believe that being of normal weight is an indicator of good health, and that BMI is a reliable measurement.

"BMI won't give you the exact indication of where fat is, but it's a useful clinical tool," said Dr. Toni Steer, a nutritionist at Britain's Medical Research Council.

Doctors are unsure about the exact dangers of internal fat, but some suspect it contributes to the risk of heart disease and diabetes. They theorize that internal fat disrupts the body's communication systems. The fat enveloping internal organs might be sending the body mistaken chemical signals to store fat inside organs like the liver or pancreas. This could ultimately lead to insulin resistance, type 2 diabetes, or heart disease.

Experts have long known that fat, active people can be healthier than their skinny, inactive counterparts. "Normal-weight persons who are sedentary and unfit are at much higher risk for mortality than obese persons who are active and fit," said Dr. Steven Blair, an obesity expert at the University of South Carolina.

For example, despite their ripples of fat, super-sized Sumo wrestlers probably have a better metabolic profile than some of their slim, sedentary spectators, Bell said. That's because the wrestlers' fat is primarily stored under the skin, not streaking throughout their vital organs and muscles.

The good news is that internal fat can be easily burned off through exercise or even by improving your diet. "Even if you don't see it on your bathroom scale, caloric restriction and physical exercise have an aggressive effect on visceral fat," said Dr. Bob Ross, an obesity expert at Queen's University in Canada.

Because many factors contribute to heart disease, Teichholz says it's difficult to determine the precise danger of internal fat — though it certainly doesn't help.

"Obesity is a risk factor, but it's lower down on the totem pole of risk factors," he said, explaining that whether or not people smoke, their family histories and blood pressure and cholesterol rates are more important determinants than both external and internal fat.

When it comes to being fit, experts say there is no short-cut. "If you just want to look thin, then maybe dieting is enough," Bell said. "But if you want to actually be healthy, then exercise has to be an important component of your lifestyle."

[Smokey D]

That's why taxing fat people is stupid (actually, I suppose you can get medicals etc, but that might be impractical), so we should tax fatty foods.

[beso negro]

Yeah, especially when the disorder is genetic and all that a better diet will do is help curve some of the symptoms/discomforts for a while. Diet and exercise does a lot for fixing genetic mutations, and curing things like cancer, AIDS, and a whole host of other diseases similar to those.

Going back to my question you refuse to answer, how will diet fix problems occuring in the make-up of the body? How will it restore 3 deleted amino acids from a strand of DNA or supress a premature stop codon? How will it tell cancerous cells when to stop dividing or keep HIV from destroying vital components of the immune system? How will diet and exercise help fight viruses that can only be destroyed by vaccination (because, as I'm sure you know, the only way we are able to fight viruses is by injecting inactivated or highly less potent forms of a virus into our bodies so our immune system will be able to recognize it and remember it as a foreign substance) or keep bacteria from multiplying?

I'm mainly concered with your idiotic opinion on CF and your idea that somehow diet can change genetic construct, but I figured I'd give the whole ADHD thing a go as well.

Diet can change construct? remember i laughed when you asked that. of course it isn't possible.

for CF, a proper diet helps alot. It will not change any DNA (idk wher you got that from). tbh, i would speculate more about how diet helps with the shortage of amino acids, but idk much about CF. CF appears to be one of those diseases , as i mentioned, that can't be prevented or cured without modern medicine.

cancer is from environmental factors and diet. This becomes obvious because more and more people are diagnosed with cancer today than ever (ratio). ofcourse when you have it, conventional medicine is the best way to go. it takes 7 years for your body to replace every cell it contains, so you will be dead before diet does much.

as for AIDS: HIV and AIDS are two separate entities and AIDS was created by the US government. AIDS is caused by the heavy use of corticosteroids and/or cytotoxic drugs to treat many health problems resulted from the use of illicit drugs by drug users and homosexuals. HIV is harmless.

READ: http://www.mercola.com/2001/sep/5/hiv_aids.htm

also: www.tetrahedron.org/

btw the most common cause of death among HIV-positive patients is liver failure, caused by taking toxic drugs


Here are some links:
http://www.well.ox.ac.uk/~simon/adhd/adhd_overview.shtml
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleId=170100932
http://www2.mc.duke.edu/adhdprogram/rschgenetics.htm
http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/course/gn301/Supplements/ADHD_Paper.html

ADHD is, in all likelihood, influenced by both genetic and environmental factors (as most behavioral characteristics are). I HIGHLY doubt diet has an overwhelming influence, much less sole influence.

Anyone can find common genes between people who have ADHD. Doesn't mean it is genetic. Yes, some kids are more likely to get it that others, but with proper diet and exercise, the "gene" will never be expressed.

Look earlier in the thread. They say "it's caused from a dopamine shortage, which can be directly correlated to any other psychological disease associated with a shortage of an important neurotransmitter."

Well what I take from that is kids with ADHD need more omega-3 fatty acids than others do. this would not be a problem period if we all ate a Mediterranean diet. Plus exercised more and played less video games.

But I agree with Spat Out Path. The burden of proof is on me. I can only rely on independent studies not funded and marketed by the FDA.

All I ask is to question everything you hear, no matter who tells you. question me and other natural medicine experts as well. We are always learning. never be afraid to be wrong

[Dave de Sylvia]

No you still don't get it. You haven't shown us any studies that back up your opinion.

[beso negro]

what? the krill-oil/fish oil studies prove that omega-3's help better than ADHD drugs.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200606/s1668130.htm

we can only speculate about genes.

you want studies confirming my belief on cancer? google it yourself. i'm exhausted from re-finding these things :p

here is a study on lung cancer and diet:
http://www.hmnews.org/article2649.html

[Dave de Sylvia]

No you're still drawing wild inferences from ambiguous data.

[beso negro]

question everything you hear.

my take on the study:
A University of South Australia study gave more than 130 children with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder a combination of fish oil and evening primrose oil for up to seven months.

ok so fish-oil = omega-3s
evening primrose oil = omega-6's (not sure why they were included, could throw off omega 3 to 6 ratio)

The head scientist, Natalie Sinn, says the results suggest that an inadequate diet could cause ADHD

what i believe

"[It] could be deficient diet, could be an inherited metabolic problem that is making them deficient in the omega-3 fatty acids and hence creating a greater requirement for supplementation," she said.

interesting. just a theory that i don't subscribe to in full, but makes sense. If everyone ate a proper omega-3 diet (like our ancestors did) ADHD would be unheardof. you can draw that conclusion from this study. yes or no?

ok so fish oil is just as effective as ADHD drugs

now lets go deeper.

natural fish oil has no side effects. ADHD drugs do. therefore imo, fish oil is the more effective way to treat this thing we call ADHD.

EDIT: fish oil has no bad side effects. if you treat people with fish oil for ADHD, good side effects occur:

regulated cholesterol in the body
protects the brain from cognitive problems
aids in the treatment of people suffering with depression

[Dave de Sylvia]

Well so far everybody in the thread has agreed that a deficient diet can create or exacerbate exisiting ADHD-like symptoms. Our problem is that you taken two or three isolated, small-sample studies and drawn completely unscientific conclusions from the (second-hand) data. You have an apparently unquestioning belief in these news articles.

[beso negro]

unless the study is funded by drug companies, you aren't going to find a better study. Plus I have never met someone who eats a proper diet have ADHD.

unscientific

how? please elaborate like i do. I take the time to make large posts explaining my stance. you can at least do more than just type 1-3 sentence posts.

research omega-3,6,9 fatty acids. all my conclusions have been proven through independent studies. can you question these studies? yes of course. I do myself. all studies are flawed. But they are all we have. i don't trust studies funded by drug companies.

If you can't draw your own conclusions from studies, then you don't belong in natural medicine.

But my conclusions make sense do they not? ADHD drugs have been known to kill, fish oil will never. the study said both are just as effective. so even a monkey can then see that fish oil is superior.

btw fish oil is FISH. so that proves a proper diet, which would include FISH(instead of meat sometimes) will "treat" ADHD. but i don't recommend eating fish because of mercury.

[lfantwister]

Plus I have never met someone who eats a proper diet have ADHD.
so about your unscientific reputation

[Dave de Sylvia]

For God's sake, would you give the drug company thing a rest?

Plus I have never met someone who eats a proper diet have ADHD.
I've never met anybody who's confessed to having ADHD. Personal experience doesn't count as scientific evidence.

how? please elaborate like i do. I take the time to make large posts explaining my stance. you can at least do more than just type 1-3 sentence posts.
First of all, drop the attitude, we're all adults here.

Second of all, you have presented a news article which mentions that the study used a very small sample (130 people), makes no mention of the methods used and makes no mention of who funded it and used it to draw a conclusion that wasn't even suggested by the scientists who conducted the research.

all my conclusions have been proven through independent studies.
No, there exists no study that proves ADHD is solely caused by diet. You admitted that yourself.

[qupte]If you can't draw your own conclusions from studies, then you don't belong in natural medicine. [/quote]
If you draw ridiculous conclusions, same thing.

ADHD drugs have been known to kill, fish oil will never.
All alien chemicals introduced to the body have the potential to cause harm.

[beso negro]

oh so we can't form our own opinions based on observation. we have to trust everything drug companies and the FDA tell us?

I'm am more afraid of the prescription drugs then war or terrorists. go ahead and take them, i'm only doing you guys a service by telling you about methods just as effective and have no unwanted sides. unless gyno and depression are up your alley idk.

[beso negro]

I've never met anybody who's confessed to having ADHD.

weird, i know people who are proud of it.

Personal experience doesn't count as scientific evidence.

ok, never said it did.

First of all, drop the attitude, we're all adults here.

attitude?

Second of all, you have presented a news article which mentions that the study used a very small sample (130 people), makes no mention of the methods used and makes no mention of who funded it and used it to draw a conclusion that wasn't even suggested by the scientists who conducted the research.

we know it wasn't the drug companies because obviously they wouldn't approve of such a study.

yes, every study has flaws. you have to draw your own conclusions. It is better than no study. Look at history. high intake of fish oil = less cancer. will it work for ADHD? this study shows yes. natural remedies are nothing new.

If you draw ridiculous conclusions, same thing.

all experts in natural medicine will say the same thing.

All alien chemicals introduced to the body have the potential to cause harm.

yes, that is why i would avoid prescription drugs if you can. Also splenda and other artificial sweeteners.

[Dave de Sylvia]

we know it wasn't the drug companies because obviously they wouldn't approve of such a study.
Maybe it was an omega-3 company.

you have to draw your own conclusions.
Yes, but not by discounting every study you don't agree with.

will it work for ADHD? this study shows yes.
Like I said, everybody in the thread agrees that omega-3 will reduce cases of ADHD.

all experts in natural medicine will say the same thing.
quote one.

yes, that is why i would avoid prescription drugs if you can. Also splenda and other artificial sweeteners.
I do avoid prescription drugs if I can, but I'll take them if it's necessary to fight an illness. ADHD for example.

[Iscariot]

i'm for it

i would also be for nationalizing food distribution so we don't have so much unhealthy useless garbage on the shelves

[beso negro]

i would also be for nationalizing food distribution so we don't have so much unhealthy useless garbage on the shelves

what about the junk food companies? they would go out of business.

[beso negro]

Maybe it was an omega-3 company.

Diet and natural supps will never be approved by the FDA and therefore, no extensive research will probably ever be done.

you have to understand how the FDA works. if milk was the cure for lung cancer it would always be considered an unproven treatment. You can't patent the chemical composition of milk therefore there would be no incentive for a big pharmaceutical company to spend the money to prove it was effective. If they did spend the money to prove it was effective they would have to do a double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled study which costs a ton of money. if the study then proved it was effective, hundreds of companies would also start selling it.The poor company that spent the money for FDA approval would never recoup their investment.


Yes, but not by discounting every study you don't agree with.

you are doing the same

Like I said, everybody in the thread agrees that omega-3 will reduce cases of ADHD.

glad we are getting somewhere :p

quote one.

www.mercola.com


I do avoid prescription drugs if I can, but I'll take them if it's necessary to fight an illness. ADHD for example.

the dangers of ADHD drugs far outweigh the their "effectiveness" when cod liver oil is aplenty. but i guess you will never buy it. I can only give you small studies and personal experience. Mercola though, who i steal most of my fire from, has a clinic where he treats everyone with omega-3 supps. he may be able to sway types like you. idk.

[ashman]

what about the junk food companies? they would go out of business.

Erm...

I can't think of anything to reply to that, except; you do know what nationalising means?

[beso negro]

not really, im just trying to get the thread back on topic.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Diet and natural supps will never be approved by the FDA and therefore, no extensive research will probably ever be done.
They don't need FDA approval.

you are doing the same
I haven't discounted any evidence, just pointed out that it's not infallible especially when, presumably, you haven't actually read the primary report of the study.

www.mercola.com
He didn't mention ADHD.

the dangers of ADHD drugs far outweigh the their "effectiveness" when cod liver oil is aplenty.
I have no idea if they do or not. I would adjust my diet to fight any debilitatinf condition but I wouldn't refuse medication and medical advice based on a hunch.

[beso negro]

They don't need FDA approval.

if carlson's attempted to do a huge study on the effectiveness of their cod liver oil product for ADHD, they would never recoup their investment. The other many cod-liver oil companies would market their products on the same study.

But according to the study i posted earlier on krill oil:

The trial was so successful, Neptune Technologies & Bioressources hopes to launch a larger cognitive study of krill oil one day soon.

i doubt it will happen though.

He didn't mention ADHD.

http://v.mercola.com/blogs/public_blog/Krill-Oil--The-Proven-Natural-Treatment-Option-for-ADHD-3772.aspx#3772
http://v.mercola.com/blogs/public_blog/New-Warnings-for-ADHD-Drugs-6462.aspx#6462

Nobody needs a drug or a patch to tame ADHD, as many safer, healthier options exist, including rebalancing your ratio of omega-3 fats by taking a high quality fish oil or krill oil daily, reducing, with the plan of eliminating, grains and sugars from your diet and avoiding processed foods.

straight from his mouth.

[Iscariot]

what about the junk food companies? they would go out of business.

that's the idea

[Dave de Sylvia]

http://v.mercola.com/blogs/public_blog/Krill-Oil--The-Proven-Natural-Treatment-Option-for-ADHD-3772.aspx#3772
He only repeats what we've already agreed upon. And not to go off-topic, but:
Neptune Technologies and Bioressources Inc. (NTB - TSX.V) extracts, scientifically validates, and markets natural health products from marine biomasses and currently provides the world’s only FDA approved oil from krill.
Study conducted by a fish oil marketing company with FDA approval kind of undermines:
Diet and natural supps will never be approved by the FDA and therefore, no extensive research will probably ever be done.

Nobody needs a drug or a patch to tame ADHD, as many safer, healthier options exist, including rebalancing your ratio of omega-3 fats by taking a high quality fish oil or krill oil daily, reducing, with the plan of eliminating, grains and sugars from your diet and avoiding processed foods.
Well he's right. He's irresponsible to completely discount the benefits of drugs (at least he appears to) but it's understandable given that he has a product to sell.

[gregulus]

Diet can change construct? remember i laughed when you asked that. of course it isn't possible.

for CF, a proper diet helps alot. It will not change any DNA (idk wher you got that from). tbh, i would speculate more about how diet helps with the shortage of amino acids, but idk much about CF. CF appears to be one of those diseases , as i mentioned, that can't be prevented or cured without modern medicine.
It seems to me that you think diet can cure anything..

cancer is from environmental factors and diet. This becomes obvious because more and more people are diagnosed with cancer today than ever (ratio). ofcourse when you have it, conventional medicine is the best way to go. it takes 7 years for your body to replace every cell it contains, so you will be dead before diet does much.
Cancer occurs when the gene that shuts off cellular division is inactivated, thus allowing cells to divide uncontrollably. What do you think a tumor is?

Actually, diet can actually promote cancer. Certain ways we prepare food could potentially lead to formation of carcinogens....
as for AIDS: HIV and AIDS are two separate entities and AIDS was created by the US government. AIDS is caused by the heavy use of corticosteroids and/or cytotoxic drugs to treat many health problems resulted from the use of illicit drugs by drug users and homosexuals. HIV is harmless.
Um, HIV destroys vital parts of the immune system. In fact, HIV is now considered a pandemic in humans. HIV enters cells through various receptor sites it attatches to. These sites differ depending on the cell type. While HIV attacks numerous cells involved in the immune system, the most common is the CD4+ t-cells, dendritic cells and macrophages. Without the CD4+ t-cells, your immune system essentially stops functioning, thus leaving you exposed to any and all antigens that get into your body. AIDS is the result of HIV rendering your immune system essentially useless. I really can't believe you just said HIV is harmless and AIDS was created by the US government. Start looking at credible sources, not conspiracy theory crap.

Anyone can find common genes between people who have ADHD. Doesn't mean it is genetic. Yes, some kids are more likely to get it that others, but with proper diet and exercise, the "gene" will never be expressed.
I'm not sure you really understand this, but for something like ADHD it most likely won't be a single gene that effects it but multiple genes working together. This holds true for almost all behavioral characteristics. I'll give it to you that things like ADHD are over-diagnosed. However, writing it off as something simply solved by diet, is stupid.

Look earlier in the thread. They say "it's caused from a dopamine shortage, which can be directly correlated to any other psychological disease associated with a shortage of an important neurotransmitter."

Well what I take from that is kids with ADHD need more omega-3 fatty acids than others do. this would not be a problem period if we all ate a Mediterranean diet. Plus exercised more and played less video games.

you are unable to get it through your head that diet will not completely stop anything.

But I agree with Spat Out Path. The burden of proof is on me. I can only rely on independent studies not funded and marketed by the FDA.

All I ask is to question everything you hear, no matter who tells you. question me and other natural medicine experts as well. We are always learning. never be afraid to be wrong
the studies i posted aren't funded by the FDA either. They are from various credible biomedical research instutitions (oxford, duke, etc). They're from scientists who actually know what they're talking about. You can't show me any credible source, therefore you lose. i don't believe everything I hear, but when presented with an overwhelming amount of quantitative and qualitative data, I tend to accept the facts. Welcome to the 21st century, where we fight disorders with the most efficient way possible.

You seem to think that anything promoted by credible research institutions is wrong. I hate to break it to you, but the scientific community is a lot more credible than a few guys who say something different...

[griftadan]

ehh this is just another reason i'm opposed to NHS, before if you live unhealthy it's your problem and thus your recources, nationalize everything and it becomes everyones problem and recources.

[Bob Rock]

Mods please move this to General Discussion.

-Bob

[PerpetualBurn]

cancer is from environmental factors and diet. This becomes obvious because more and more people are diagnosed with cancer today than ever (ratio).

Erm...cancer is more likely in old age...and more people are actually surviving to this age than ever before.

Cretin.

[italic zero]

he has some other amusing arguments about diagnosis

[spitfirejunky]

Holy mother of God, beso negro. Do you seriously believe that there is no direct correlation between AIDS and HIV?

[italic zero]

he's as bad as the creationists

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Better yet, a non-thin tax.

[gregulus]

he's as bad as the creationists

This is a pretty valid comparison, I must say.

[spitfirejunky]

This is a pretty valid comparison, I must say.

Well, only in the sense that he/she's successfully managed to ignore thousands of international independent peer-reviewed studies.

[italic zero]

by claiming conspiracy

[Der Übermensch]

he's as bad as the creationists


Worse if you ask me... They believe HIV is harmful at least, even if it is merely gods punishment of homosexuals...

[Smokey D]

Mods please move this to General Discussion.

-Bob

Why would i do that?

[GreyHam]

i missed the bit about aids and hiv first time round

hiv isnt harmless - i think by its name 'human immunodefiancy virus' its self explanitory how dangerous it is. sure it doesnt kill you - it stops you being able to protect yourself against other diseases

its like knocking someone out and leaving them in the middle of the M1

if you get HIV, chances are you WILL die from it.

your talking absolute trot to say otherwise

[beso negro]

It seems to me that you think diet can cure anything..

nope

Cancer occurs when the gene that shuts off cellular division is inactivated, thus allowing cells to divide uncontrollably. What do you think a tumor is?

yes, but with more anti-oxidants eaten through diet, this would not happen. Also through sunlight (vitamin D). It is no coincidence the farther people live from the equator, the more likely people die from cancer.

Actually, diet can actually promote cancer. Certain ways we prepare food could potentially lead to formation of carcinogens....

yea, frying in **** oils and using teflon cookware. also pesticides. eating all natural isn't going to hurt.

Um, HIV destroys vital parts of the immune system. In fact, HIV is now considered a pandemic in humans. HIV enters cells through various receptor sites it attatches to. These sites differ depending on the cell type. While HIV attacks numerous cells involved in the immune system, the most common is the CD4+ t-cells, dendritic cells and macrophages. Without the CD4+ t-cells, your immune system essentially stops functioning, thus leaving you exposed to any and all antigens that get into your body. AIDS is the result of HIV rendering your immune system essentially useless. I really can't believe you just said HIV is harmless and AIDS was created by the US government. Start looking at credible sources, not conspiracy theory crap.

idk but i got it from mercola, which is the 2nd most popular site for health next to WebMD.

conspiracy theory crap? the guy who wrote it has a PHD.

I'm not sure you really understand this, but for something like ADHD it most likely won't be a single gene that effects it but multiple genes working together. This holds true for almost all behavioral characteristics. I'll give it to you that things like ADHD are over-diagnosed. However, writing it off as something simply solved by diet, is stupid.

simply solved by diet yes. easy as that. It doesn't "cure" ADHD in any sense of the word. you have to have a good diet always.

you are unable to get it through your head that diet will not completely stop anything.

so we should all eat **** then with no antioxidants and get cancer and die becuase diet is too much work is what i am hearing.

diet isn't "proven" because it takes 7 years to replace every cell in your body. How about type 2 diabetes? don't tell me you think that is caused by anything else than diet.

just because your doctor thinks only pills do good, doesn't mean he is right.

the studies i posted aren't funded by the FDA either. They are from various credible biomedical research instutitions (oxford, duke, etc). They're from scientists who actually know what they're talking about. You can't show me any credible source, therefore you lose. i don't believe everything I hear, but when presented with an overwhelming amount of quantitative and qualitative data, I tend to accept the facts. Welcome to the 21st century, where we fight disorders with the most efficient way possible.

my studies are from uni's too. idk what you are getting at. sorry for not taking everything i hear as gospel. how many times have you heard something was good for you, just to see later that is was actually bad?

doctors kill more people than guns

You seem to think that anything promoted by credible research institutions is wrong. I hate to break it to you, but the scientific community is a lot more credible than a few guys who say something different...

all the studies i posted were done by the scientific community as well.

Holy mother of God, beso negro. Do you seriously believe that there is no direct correlation between AIDS and HIV?

i am considering it. need more research.

[gregulus]

nope



yes, but with more anti-oxidants eaten through diet, this would not happen. Also through sunlight (vitamin D). It is no coincidence the farther people live from the equator, the more likely people die from cancer.
more like without any exposure to carcinogens. nothing will stop cancer. the article you posted said diet would only help prevent 12%. What about the other 88%?


yea, frying in **** oils and using teflon cookware. also pesticides. eating all natural isn't going to hurt.
yeah, lets make everyone become vegan. that's logical. sike.



idk but i got it from mercola, which is the 2nd most popular site for health next to WebMD.

conspiracy theory crap? the guy who wrote it has a PHD.
popularity means nothing. you posted the opinions of one guy. i posted peer-reviewed material. i'll take evidence from multiple peer-reviewed publications over some random guy any day.



simply solved by diet yes. easy as that. It doesn't "cure" ADHD in any sense of the word. you have to have a good diet always.
that's why the peer-reviewed material i posted stated strong evidence of a genetic link in ADHD, right?



so we should all eat **** then with no antioxidants and get cancer and die becuase diet is too much work is what i am hearing.

diet isn't "proven" because it takes 7 years to replace every cell in your body. How about type 2 diabetes? don't tell me you think that is caused by anything else than diet.

just because your doctor thinks only pills do good, doesn't mean he is right.
every doctor i've been to has given me antibiotics only when necessary. contrary to what you think is right, medicine is often times necessary for treating infection. type 2 diabetes is largely caused by poor eating habits and lack of exercise, yes, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying to find ways to cure it.

Also, where'd you get this "seven year" thing from. Certain cells, like nerve cells, don't undergo mitosis, but i'm sure you know that because you're so keen on science. And what is a person with cancer supposed to do? Wait 7 years and HOPE they get better?


my studies are from uni's too. idk what you are getting at. sorry for not taking everything i hear as gospel. how many times have you heard something was good for you, just to see later that is was actually bad?

doctors kill more people than guns
mercola? i don't take everything i hear as gospel. you think HIV is harmless and that cf is prevented by diet. sorry i don't think everything "the man" funds is wrong.

i am considering it. need more research.
prove it. i beg you.

You seem to think that diet is the magical cure for everything. It's not. Biomedical research is very necessary and so are drugs.

[PerpetualBurn]

yea, frying in **** oils and using teflon cookware. also pesticides. eating all natural isn't going to hurt.


If all natural doesn't hurt then how come raw chicken gives me salmonella?

[italic zero]

because the chicken didn't eat right

duh

[beso negro]

If all natural doesn't hurt then how come raw chicken gives me salmonella?

cook meat. that goes without saying. but don't fry it.

more like without any exposure to carcinogens. nothing will stop cancer. the article you posted said diet would only help prevent 12%. What about the other 88%?

nothing will stop cancer? little outrageous. getting lung cancer? stop smoking and eat better. done.

and what article is this that you speak of?

yeah, lets make everyone become vegan. that's logical. sike.

cite vegetarian thread. vegans are not healthy imo.

popularity means nothing. you posted the opinions of one guy. i posted peer-reviewed material. i'll take evidence from multiple peer-reviewed publications over some random guy any day.

mercola reviews everything on his site and other doctors post on it as well.

that's why the peer-reviewed material i posted stated strong evidence of a genetic link in ADHD, right?

strong? idk, but i can make sense of the genetic idea. But that is like saying since people are overweight by 50 pounds, it is genetics. sure they may have some "fat gene" but it wouldn't have to be expressed if they stopped eating sugars, grains, and starches + exercise. same with ADHD. got ADHD? get more omega-3s.

every doctor i've been to has given me antibiotics only when necessary. contrary to what you think is right, medicine is often times necessary for treating infection. type 2 diabetes is largely caused by poor eating habits and lack of exercise, yes, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying to find ways to cure it.

modern medicine is necessary at times yes. what i have been saying is that it is not for ADHD. neither is it for people overweight, unless they are morbidly obese.

Also, where'd you get this "seven year" thing from. Certain cells, like nerve cells, don't undergo mitosis, but i'm sure you know that because you're so keen on science. And what is a person with cancer supposed to do? Wait 7 years and HOPE they get better?

got the seven year thing from here(well not here but here is an example):

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2001-02/981770369.An.r.html

look earlier in the thread. i said cancer patients shouldn't turn to diet because of that reason. nerve cells don't undergo mitosis? interesting. but i don't think that is relevant.

i don't take everything i hear as gospel. you think HIV is harmless and that cf is prevented by diet. sorry i don't think everything "the man" funds is wrong.

cf is not prevented by diet but it helps.

prove it. i beg you.

after finals we will see.

You seem to think that diet is the magical cure for everything. It's not. Biomedical research is very necessary and so are drugs.

drugs are necessary, in some cases. where did i say they weren't?

[Dave de Sylvia]

I have an idea for a new marketing strategy: how about healthy eating plus medication?!

[GreyHam]

cite vegetarian thread. vegans are not healthy imo.





n its 1996 position paper on vegetarian diets, the American Dietetic Association reported that vegan and vegetarian diets can significantly reduce one's risk of contracting heart disease, colon and lung cancer, osteoporosis, diabetes, kidney disease, hypertension, obesity, and a number of other debilitating conditions. Cows' milk contains ideal amounts of fat and protein for young calves, but far too much for humans. And eggs are higher in cholesterol than any other food, making them a leading contributor to cardiovascular disease.

Vegan foods, such as whole grains, vegetables, fruits, and beans, are low in fat, contain no cholesterol, and are rich in fiber and nutrients. Vegans can get all the protein they need from legumes (e.g., beans, tofu, peanuts) and grains (e.g., rice, corn, whole wheat breads and pastas); calcium from broccoli, kale, collard greens, tofu, fortified juices and soymilks; iron from chickpeas, spinach, pinto beans, and soy products; and B12 from fortified foods or supplements. With planning, a vegan diet can provide all the nutrients we were taught as schoolchildren came only from animal products.

evidence can be found supporting both arguments...

[gregulus]

nothing will stop cancer? little outrageous. getting lung cancer? stop smoking and eat better. done.
haha, what about air polution, second hand smoke, lung disease, etc. all are causes of lung cancer. gg.

cite vegetarian thread. vegans are not healthy imo.
smartest thing you've said in this thread.


mercola reviews everything on his site and other doctors post on it as well.

articles published in notable research journals > articles published on a privately owned website.

strong? idk, but i can make sense of the genetic idea. But that is like saying since people are overweight by 50 pounds, it is genetics. sure they may have some "fat gene" but it wouldn't have to be expressed if they stopped eating sugars, grains, and starches + exercise. same with ADHD. got ADHD? get more omega-3s.
50 lbs? that's not genetic. Someone who is active yet still ways 350 pounds regardless of dieting and exercising extensively, that's probably genetic to a large extent.

On ADHD:
http://www.well.ox.ac.uk/~simon/adhd/adhd_overview.shtml
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleId=170100932http://www2.mc.duke.edu/adhdprogram/rschgenetics.htm
http://adhd.ucla.edu/

post valid evidence against this from notable sources.


modern medicine is necessary at times yes. what i have been saying is that it is not for ADHD. neither is it for people overweight, unless they are morbidly obese.
evidence please.



got the seven year thing from here(well not here but here is an example):

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2001-02/981770369.An.r.html
you just wasted my time posting a link explaining to a biology major how cells divide. congratulations.

look earlier in the thread. i said cancer patients shouldn't turn to diet because of that reason. nerve cells don't undergo mitosis? interesting. but i don't think that is relevant.
then why should cancer patients diet? surely not to prevent cancer, they're already screwed in that sense.
cf is not prevented by diet but it helps.
cf is genetic. are you dumb?

drugs are necessary, in some cases. where did i say they weren't?
when you said that diet could treat and cure most everything.

[gregulus]

nothing will stop cancer? little outrageous. getting lung cancer? stop smoking and eat better. done.
haha, what about air polution, second hand smoke, lung disease, etc. all are causes of lung cancer. gg.

cite vegetarian thread. vegans are not healthy imo.
smartest thing you've said in this thread.


mercola reviews everything on his site and other doctors post on it as well.

articles published in notable research journals > articles published on a privately owned website.

strong? idk, but i can make sense of the genetic idea. But that is like saying since people are overweight by 50 pounds, it is genetics. sure they may have some "fat gene" but it wouldn't have to be expressed if they stopped eating sugars, grains, and starches + exercise. same with ADHD. got ADHD? get more omega-3s.
http://www.well.ox.ac.uk/~simon/adhd/adhd_overview.shtml
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleId=170100932http://www2.mc.duke.edu/adhdprogram/rschgenetics.htm
http://adhd.ucla.edu/

post valid evidence against this from notable sources.


modern medicine is necessary at times yes. what i have been saying is that it is not for ADHD. neither is it for people overweight, unless they are morbidly obese.
evidence please.



got the seven year thing from here(well not here but here is an example):

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2001-02/981770369.An.r.html
you just wasted my time posting a link explaining to a biology major how cells divide. congratulations.

look earlier in the thread. i said cancer patients shouldn't turn to diet because of that reason. nerve cells don't undergo mitosis? interesting. but i don't think that is relevant.
then why should cancer patients diet? surely not to prevent cancer, they're already screwed in that sense.
cf is not prevented by diet but it helps.
cf is genetic. are you dumb?

[spitfirejunky]

i am considering it. need more research.

Good luck. This is about as difficult as debunking the laws of physics since, you know, thousands of international peer-reviewed studies approve the correlation.

And you're no molecular biologist.

[PerpetualBurn]

cook meat. that goes without saying. but don't fry it.

This in no way properly answered the question.

[beso negro]

haha, what about air polution, second hand smoke, lung disease, etc. all are causes of lung cancer. gg.

yes it is unfortunate that in America it is impossible to avoid toxic chemicals and radiation that cause cancer.

http://www.organicconsumers.org/foodsafety/cancer070104.cfm

articles published in notable research journals > articles published on a privately owned website.

i believe all my studies were published on multiple websites and journals.

50 lbs? that's not genetic. Someone who is active yet still ways 350 pounds regardless of dieting and exercising extensively, that's probably genetic to a large extent.


very few people who weigh over 350 have a problem that diet and exercise cannot fix.

they are just using the wrong diet.

On ADHD:
http://www.well.ox.ac.uk/~simon/adhd/adhd_overview.shtml
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleId=170100932http://www2.mc.duke.edu/adhdprogram/rschgenetics.htm
http://adhd.ucla.edu/

post valid evidence against this from notable sources.

evidence please.

ha, im not giving anymore. this doesn't need to go on. i can pull out any study about the correlation between diet and ADHD and you will shoot it down. yes, my studies aren't perfect. But all i really count on are these studies and the advice of alternative medicine experts.

If you refuse to accept my theory then fine. this doesn't need to go on any longer.

you just wasted my time posting a link explaining to a biology major how cells divide. congratulations.

:p

then why should cancer patients diet? surely not to prevent cancer, they're already screwed in that sense.

it can't hurt to have good nutrition. most times they wouldn't be in their predicament if they would have took better care of themselves originally. But if you do have cancer, yes ofcourse modern medicine is your friend.

cf is genetic.

agreed

when you said that diet could treat and cure most everything.

i said diet was the root cause of most things. it wont cure cancer once you have it but it will prevent it.

btw i don't understand the sarcasm and the hostility. this is fun.

:smoke:

[gregulus]

i believe all my studies were published on multiple websites and journals.
what kind of websites and journals?



i said diet was the root cause of most things. it wont cure cancer once you have it but it will prevent it.
not just diet. several things can impact health. various environmental factors (diet included), stress, genetics, poor choices (drugs, alcoholism, smoking), etc.

btw i don't understand the sarcasm and the hostility. this is fun.
sarcasm because i'm a really sarcastic person. hostility because you said a genetic disease was preventable by diet, but that's been cleared up.

[beso negro]

yes i agree completely

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

I agree with everyone. You are all right. Congrats today is a great day.

[Lars Rich]

What is this psychobabble bullshit?

[Reaganista]

i'm sad that this thread appears to no longer be about fat taxes =(

taxing unhealthy food to pay for healthcare is generally a bad idea imo because obesity and poverty are directly related because the most inexpensive foods are generally unhealthy

so the money would have to be used to artificially lower the price of healthy food

if you wanted to create a situation where you can really say that people are responsible for their own eating choices and frequency, etc.

[GreyHam]

a lowering in cost of healthy foods (ie fresh veg and all those lovely things) combined with a rise in price of unhealthy foods (ffs burgers are cheaper than carrots in so many places...) plus education would be a good start

of course diet is correlated to ADHD - eat loads of sugar your gonna go hyper, EVERYONE knows this! If your constantly having a bad high sugar diet your going to be loopy more often

that isnt causing ADHD - its manifesting symptoms of it

[Dave de Sylvia]

Did you read what he said? Taxing unhealthy food will just drive the producers to make the food more unhealthy.

[GreyHam]

why?

[Dave de Sylvia]

To keep their prices low and margins high, they'll have to cut the cost of producing the product, which inevitably means lowering the standard of the food. So people aren't eating any more healthily, they're just paying more taxes.

[GreyHam]

tax shitty ingrediants, force food companies to make higher standards of food?

sod it, change to food standards laws

[Dave de Sylvia]

Or just let people eat what they want.

[beso negro]

To keep their prices low and margins high, they'll have to cut the cost of producing the product, which inevitably means lowering the standard of the food. So people aren't eating any more healthily, they're just paying more taxes.

well if the standard is lower, then why would people buy? I would assume the taste would be worse if they lowered the standard.

Anyways, the line between unhealthy and healthy is hard to draw. Would you consider sugar free food healthy if they use sucralose as the alternative? I wouldn't but America would.

Is switching from candy bars to fruit a good alternative? not really, fruits can raise insulin levels just as much.

it is impossible to draw a line.

[Dave de Sylvia]

You can lower the standard without affecting the taste, that's what sweeteners and additives are for. Look at McDonalds.

[GreyHam]

Or just let people eat what they want.

most people want whats cost effective. quality of food (meat in paticular) at the lower cost end is pretty shocking, as youve said, full of sweteners and additives

most people dont bother to look at the ingredients, and wouldnt know what they meant anyway

let people eat what they want by all means, but make sure that whats available is an acceptable standard