Union Yes!

[Danish]

Seeing as I'm the resident expert on all things labour, this thread is a place to discuss and ask questions about unions, labour issues, industrial relations in general. Want to know what unions do? Want to know about your rights at work? Let's talk about it.

[GreyHam]

surely it varies depending on where u live...

[Danish]

surely it varies depending on where u live...

No doubt. You're in Britain, the birthplace of both industrial capitalism and the labour movement. Obviously there are differences in industrial relations regimes across countries, even from province-to-province and state-to-state. But that's something to talk about in and of itself. For instance, why does Great Britain have a Labour Party (as does virtually every other OECD country) and the US doesn't? How has that affected labour relations and the labour movement in the US?

[Iskandar]

I'm leaving in a little while for a job interview. Union shop. :cool:

The proletariat will rise once more with me at their helm!

[deadinholywood]

"If there is hope, it lies in the proles."

[ringworm]

Are you refering to traditional unions like here in the US?

My dad is a long-time union member
Unfortunately, a union is only as strong as its members, which doesnt say much given the apathy and spineless people around these days.

He has workers that are right beside of him making $3-6 less and hour than he does because they are too frightened to join and the pay minimal amount of dues to be represented and assured a healthy retirement.

[deadinholywood]

I'm in a union, it is fairly expensive (by comparison to others) however i would not work in my line of employment without having some sort of representation.
I think close to 100% of the people I work for are with the union.

[ringworm]

depending on what line you're in, i'd rather have a smaller paycheck and assured a good quality retirement than have a few extra bucks a paycheck

but the funny thing is, at least with the trucking unions around, if you are a union member, you make wayyyy more than a joe that doesn't, so even if you equate the dues, he still makes more an hour than a non-union employee and gets better benefits even after dues, i cant figure out why some neglect to join, the majority are union, but his particular outfit doesnt require it.

most people have a negative attitude towards unions, but dont really understand the positives that outweigh any negative comments you usually hear about them

[deadinholywood]

I am in it for the legal representation probably more than anything, as i simply don't have the cash to be able to pay for solicitors for any trouble that i may encounter. Plus the union i am with are well known for being tough with the government and doing as much as they can for the employees.
Eh i don't know what the hassle is really, it's tax deductible and not too expensive.

[Danish]

I'm leaving in a little while for a job interview. Union shop. :cool:

The proletariat will rise once more with me at their helm!

Cool, where is it? If you end up with the job, definately try to get involved in the union. It feels really good to put theory to practice ;)

Are you refering to traditional unions like here in the US?

My dad is a long-time union member
Unfortunately, a union is only as strong as its members, which doesnt say much given the apathy and spineless people around these days.

He has workers that are right beside of him making $3-6 less and hour than he does because they are too frightened to join and the pay minimal amount of dues to be represented and assured a healthy retirement.

Any unions. Most of the unions around today have been around for decades, or have formed from mergers. Traditionally, there are two kinds of unions: industrial unions and craft unions.

Industrial unions are much more prominent both in the economy at large and in numbers of members. These unions will represent any workers regardless of skill level, though traditionally they stick to one industry or economic sector (ie. auto industry, public sector, etc.). Examples of industrial unions that exist in the United States are the United Auto Workers' Union (UAW), United Food and Commercial Workers' Union (UFCW), the Union of Needletrades, Textile, and Industrial Employees - Hotel Employees and Restaurant Employees (UNITE-HERE), and the Service Employees' International Union.

Craft unions are less prominent, but tend to be older. Indeed, historically the first unions were craft unions. These unions only represent skilled workers and organize very strictly according to a specific craft or skill (ie. painters into the painters' union, millwrights into the millwrights' union, etc.).

This distinction has become less important over the past 3 decades as unions overall have been facing extreme pressures from neoliberalism - especially in the US - and union density (the percentage of the workforce that belongs to unions) has dropped.

People are apathetic and spineless because they're scared. Working people today are facing an economic world that hasn't existed since the 1930s. It's something that labour educators like me have to keep in mind. People are defensive and our social defense mechanisms are far less capable of protecting them than they were during the period from the late 1940s until the mid-1970s.

And those people working next to your dad for $3-$6 less per hour aren't really concerned about the dues or the politics. If they really understood the situation they were facing and the benefits of union membership, they would sign membership cards without hesitation. The problem is the same as it has always been: people are scared. They're scared of losing their job either to Chinese slave labour wages or to their countless fellow Americans (or Canadians or Australians or Brits, we're all in the same boat here) desperately seeking decent pay. It's getting harder and harder to defend the wages and benefits of workers at General Motors, for instance, when they are effectively the only group of workers with much power to make demands.

All things being equal, people would join unions in two seconds. But they're afraid of losing their jobs. Employers will stop at nothing to kill an organizing drive or even break an existing union because they have the power to do so. After 30 years of Republicans and so-called "moderate" Democrats running the show in Washington, the law and bureaucracy has changed in such a way a to make it next-to-impossible to organize a union. And you can't blame people for being scared. Economic insecurity is rampant. What we need to do is teach people, show people that the union isn't just about dollars and cents, but it's about power and rights.

Where does your dad work?

[Danish]

I am in it for the legal representation probably more than anything, as i simply don't have the cash to be able to pay for solicitors for any trouble that i may encounter. Plus the union i am with are well known for being tough with the government and doing as much as they can for the employees.
Eh i don't know what the hassle is really, it's tax deductible and not too expensive.

What do you do? What union are you in?

[deadinholywood]

/unpopular occupation

I'm a police officer and am represented by an Association run by fellow police members

[Iskandar]

Cool, where is it? If you end up with the job, definately try to get involved in the union. It feels really good to put theory to practice ;)At a grocery store. There's a good chance of getting it as they're desperately short of workers. If not, I'll begin my search again pronto.

Damn you, Canadian labour market...

[Danish]

/unpopular occupation

I'm a police officer and am represented by an Association run by fellow police members

Ohh ok. Police unions are in a tough position because they don't have the legal right to strike. But you get to carry a gun at work!

[Danish]

At a grocery store. There's a good chance of getting it as they're desperately short of workers. If not, I'll begin my search again pronto.

Damn you, Canadian labour market...

Damn you! I live in Canada, I'll know the grocery store if you mention it! :p

It's almost definately with UFCW, which is somewhat unfortunate. If you're lucky, it's one of the stores organized with the CAW.

And I'm facing the same labour market as you, brother. The university cut summer courses, so I can't TA for 4 months.

[Iskandar]

Damn you! I live in Canada, I'll know the grocery store if you mention it! :p

It's almost definately with UFCW, which is somewhat unfortunate. If you're lucky, it's one of the stores organized with the CAW.

And I'm facing the same labour market as you, brother. The university cut summer courses, so I can't TA for 4 months.
I doubt it's with CAW. I didn't do much research on the job, though. I just want a half-decent job as soon as I can get it.

That sucks about the university.

[deadinholywood]

Ah actually we can strike when we want, however I've found that no matter how bad a situation is members don't strike because of a sense of community responsibility. My station is horribly understaffed, our region is the second fastest growing in the state and im drowning in work but somehow the union always work something out for us. There has only been one police strike in the history of my state and the government would not want it to happen again.

Carrying a gun at work is cool for about a week and then it just becomes heavy and results in back pain :)

[Danish]

I doubt it's with CAW. I didn't do much research on the job, though. I just want a half-decent job as soon as I can get it.

That sucks about the university.

Which grocery store is it? I've read the agreements.

[Iskandar]

Which grocery store is it? I've read the agreements.Your Independent Grocer.

[LegionsofMarduk]

I think I'm in the minority here when I say that I'm very glad that my work doesn't have a union.

I am not in fear for my job. I make good money. Last year I got a 10% raise. This year was even better, a 13% raise. In the 7 years that I've worked here, yes there have been down times. There have been people that got laid off or had their position eliminated. There was even a period of time where overtime was prohibited. But I would much rather face no overtime or limited hours than being unemployed. And if it ever does come down to me being laid off or fired, I'll do what every other non-union worker would do. I'll suck it up, deal with it, and find another job. Even if I have to go back to flipping burgers like I did in college. A union employee will grab a picket, a union rep and march around in front of his old office instead of sucking it up and finding other work.

I'll never forget when I did a plant survey (logged all the equipment) at a refinery a few years ago. It was a union refinery. It was a joke. Instead of 2 guys dong a job that should take a few hours, there had to be 5 people there. And it took them all day. I had to get power cut to a section of a building one day to get the equipment info and instead of the contol room operator being able to shut the valves and flip the power switch, he had to call his supervisor. Who had to call his supervisor. Who in turn had to call the union rep. So what should have taken me and the control room operator 5 minutes, took 3 phone calls and almost 4 hours. What a joke.

Back when unions first came into being, they were needed. But over the years they have become greedy, spoiled, and lazy. Instead of taking a pay/benefit cut, a union will force the employer to keep the same payrate and benefits and ultimately lead the company to financial trouble to the point they have to close a plant and lose even more jobs. Unions have/will drive work out of the US. A couple years ago when one of the airlines (can't remember which one) had a bunch of union mechanics go on strike, I was sooo happy to hear that the airline had fired them and hired other, non-union, workers. The non-union workers were just glad to have a job. Yes they were paid a little less than the old union workers, but they did the same good work and the airline was able to save millions of dollars and keep themselves out of further financial trouble which led to better customer service and ultimately better financial outlooks.

Unions use politics of fear. Union workers don't do any higher quality work than their non-union counterparts. They do less work (based on time put in) for more money. But because of the union dues, they are able to pay extravagent amount of money to high profile lawyers (not to mention the union bosses wearing Armani suits, driving Roll Royce cars, eating lobster and smoking Cuban cigars) who can threaten companies into doing what they want, instead of what's best for the company and it's customers.

And as far as pension protection goes, it shouldn't be up to the company to take care of you after you retire. Once you're done working, it's your responsibility. It's not the company's or the government's responsibility. If you weren't smart enough to plan for retirement they you pretty much get what you deserve. It doesn't take much money to start an invensment account. Once you start the account, it just takes a little bit of time and planning to make sure that your nest egg becomes large enough to retire on.

I dunno. Maybe I've only seen the worst of it. But this is basically what I've seen at every union plant I've ever visited.

[ringworm]

Where does your dad work?
He was in the pipefitting union many years ago, but he is now in Teamsters (Trucking)

[AmericanWeiner]

Good luck to any professional musicians not in unions

[EinzingerIsGod]

Danish I want your opinion...

Is it possible to ever get Wal-Mart to unionize in the US? I know in Europe they have unionized workers that were grandfathered in when they bought out another chain, but do you think it's possible when they seek out and remove unionizers so swiftly?

[Danish]

Danish I want your opinion...

Is it possible to ever get Wal-Mart to unionize in the US? I know in Europe they have unionized workers that were grandfathered in when they bought out another chain, but do you think it's possible when they seek out and remove unionizers so swiftly?

I think if labour history has taught us anything, it's that organizing is possible no matter how heavily the odds are stacked against workers. People today feel scared and insecure, much as they did in mining camps and auto towns 75 years ago. They changed everything by organizing successfully, even in the face brutal violence from employers and the state. Wal-Mart workers have a fight, but I definately think it's one they can win.

One major thing that will help is the Employee Free Choice Act that's passed the House and is currently in the Senate. It will establish an automatic card certification process that will enable workers to exercise their right to join unions free from harrassment and threats. It will also establish a system of First Contract Arbitration, eliminating yet another unfair labour practice from employers' arsenaults. It's the most important reform to US labour relations in 50 years.

[EinzingerIsGod]

I think if labour history has taught us anything, it's that organizing is possible no matter how heavily the odds are stacked against workers. People today feel scared and insecure, much as they did in mining camps and auto towns 75 years ago. They changed everything by organizing successfully, even in the face brutal violence from employers and the state. Wal-Mart workers have a fight, but I definately think it's one they can win.

One major thing that will help is the Employee Free Choice Act that's passed the House and is currently in the Senate. It will establish an automatic card certification process that will enable workers to exercise their right to join unions free from harrassment and threats. It will also establish a system of First Contract Arbitration, eliminating yet another unfair labour practice from employers' arsenaults. It's the most important reform to US labour relations in 50 years.

Interesting...thanks.

Labor rights is a field I'm considering as a career down the road and I've been doing a lot of reading on the whole Wal-Mart situation.

[Reaganista]

i was in a union once

it was completely corporate and totally depressing

the hierarchy of unions is self defeating imo

[Smokey D]

Interesting question.

Unionised wages in effect represent efficiency wages, meaning less people get paid for more work. That is, unions make poor people worse off, even if they improve the position of the (very specifically) working class. Is this something we should pursue/ is it just?

[ringworm]

That is, unions make poor people worse off, even if they improve the position of the (very specifically) working class. Is this something we should pursue/ is it just?

yes, it is just, we shouldnt drag everyone else wages down just to compensate for others, many union jobs are in trucking, so a poor person with no education should have no problem getting a higher paying job that simply involves moving freight

[griftadan]

enless of course their one of the percentage that effeciency wages unemploys...

[Reaganista]

Interesting question.

Unionised wages in effect represent efficiency wages, meaning less people get paid for more work. That is, unions make poor people worse off, even if they improve the position of the (very specifically) working class. Is this something we should pursue/ is it just?

no

any union that doesn't consider the working class to apply to any and all people that don't own capital is operating on totally flawed logic imo

that happens to be like all of them anymore though

[Dr Hooch]

I was in a union once. USDAW, because I worked in Tesco.

I joined because they gave legal insurance.

I'm probably far too Bourgoisie for this kind of thing... The only unions I really encounter and am likely to encoutner are 'proffessional' unions (like my mum is in the teacher's union, for reasons like legal insurance if some kid says she hit him or something, rather than for 'power to the people' reasons... they're a no striking union)

Is this sort of a different 'category' of unions compared to the sort of 'workers' unions you guys seem to be talking about? Or do you see it all as the same kinda thing for different kinds of people?

[ringworm]

enless of course their one of the percentage that effeciency wages unemploys...
yeah, lets just make all the honest, hardworking people support people who cant figure out how normal society functions

*see Democratic Party

[Reaganista]

you appear to have no understanding of the subject matter

[Mr. Ron]

What do you think about this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbWYjigZ0sw


And this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGeIP92bUNU

[Reaganista]

well i'm not gonna actually watch the whole thing

but is this guy seriously in favor of child labor

[Mr. Ron]

Well, he does say that not buying their products puts them out of work, soooo....

[Reaganista]

oh so he completely fails to appreciate the point of the situation ok

[mannybeinmanny]

yeah, lets just make all the honest, hardworking people support people who cant figure out how normal society functions

*see Democratic Party

yeah that's a terrible idea...let's ignore them instead and hope that they just go away.

[ringworm]

you appear to have no understanding of the subject matter
:rolleyes:

What do you think about this video?
I pretty much agree with him

[Smokey D]

yes, it is just, we shouldnt drag everyone else wages down just to compensate for others, many union jobs are in trucking, so a poor person with no education should have no problem getting a higher paying job that simply involves moving freight

Why does a unionised person have a right to high waged labour when a non-unionised person has no right to any work at all?

[ringworm]

what drawback would a union job be to someone without a job?

if a man can make $45 per hour double time because a union has fought for him to make such a nice living doing labor, what fault could anyone be responsible for?

[Dave de Sylvia]

It's unnaturally inflated so the price of the commodity or service is higher than necessary.

Also why would Walmart employees need to unionise? It's Walmart.

[LegionsofMarduk]

what drawback would a union job be to someone without a job?

if a man can make $45 per hour double time because a union has fought for him to make such a nice living doing labor, what fault could anyone be responsible for?

Why should the company be forced into paying him $45/hour just because he's in a union? The guy down the road would be willing to do the same quality of work for $35/hour. The guy making $35 is still making a nice living so he's happy, and the company isn't being forced to paying inflated wages thereby raising the price of it's goods or services and putting itself in financial trouble.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Nobody's forced to do anything. If the company doesn't want to pay people $45 an hour they can become a non-union workplace.

[Danish]

no

any union that doesn't consider the working class to apply to any and all people that don't own capital is operating on totally flawed logic imo

that happens to be like all of them anymore though

I'm very glad you brought this up. There seems to be some confusion about what unions are and what they do. I could write a book on it, but I'll keep it brief.

If there is one thing you take from what I'm about to say, make it this: not all unions are the same. Every national union and even every local differs in the types and demographics of workers they represent, structure, and history. In terms of ideology and operational practice and structure, there are three kinds of "unionism":

Business unionism: these unions are concerned primarily with collective agreements and "providing service" for members. They are more conservative politically and accept capitalism and the status quo. They spend less money on politics and organizing new members. The dark image of unions in American popular culture comes from business unionism, like Jimmy Hoffa and "union bosses". These unions are very hierarchic and undemocratic. Unfortunately, most of the unions in the US are business unions, much more a testament to the Red Scare of the 40s and 50s and the power of corporations to break unions than to the ability of American workers to organize large, democratic organizations. Historically, business unionism finds its roots in the craft unions of the 1800s and the American Federation of Labor. In fact, business unionism is also known as "Gomperism", after the long-time President of the AFL. Some examples of business unions include the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, ... (I'll finish this later)

[Mr. Ron]

Danish, did you watch the vids I posted?

[Reaganista]

dude danish i knew all that stuff that's exactly what i was talking about without all the words

and those videos were garbage, pointing out that child labor laws means children can't get jobs is like the most useless thing ever that's the whole point

[Mr. Ron]

Yeah, when he said it I actually played it back to make sure my ears weren't deceiving me.

[Chrysostom]

For instance, why does Great Britain have a Labour Party (as does virtually every other OECD country) and the US doesn't?

We didn't last time I checked.

[Danish]

dude danish i knew all that stuff that's exactly what i was talking about without all the words

I know, I'm just trying to teach everybody. There is so much disinformation and so little education about unions and the labour movement; it's important to teach people about their rights when no one else will.

[Seafroggys]

when I first got hired at Target my group watched a video about how terrible Unions are and that joining one is not in our best interests.

It was a terrible video, because considering that Target is a professional business, the video was full of slander and complete unprofessionalism as it talked down to unions.

The funniest part of it was "Unions are a business. That's right, a business."

The first thought through my head was, "And what do you think Target is?"

[metalkingtiger]

Sometimes unions make things worse, especially when the union is directly involved with the infrastructure of a country. Here in P.R. the freight drivers have a union and whenever they feel like it and get all pissy about something they paralize the whole country by refusing to deliver goods like gasoline to gas stations and making traffic jams with their trailers. Then there's the electric company union which messed up the country last christmas cause the electric company wouldn't give them a raise. They even threatened to sabotage the electric system in the island and we (National Guard) had to be activated during our christmas vacations to watch over the installations. So IMO unions are a good idea but sometimes they overreact and bring down the rest of the country with them.

[ringworm]

Sometimes unions make things worse, especially when the union is directly involved with the infrastructure of a country. Here in P.R. the freight drivers have a union and whenever they feel like it and get all pissy about something they paralize the whole country by refusing to deliver goods like gasoline to gas stations and making traffic jams with their trailers. Then there's the electric company union which messed up the country last christmas cause the electric company wouldn't give them a raise. They even threatened to sabotage the electric system in the island and we (National Guard) had to be activated during our christmas vacations to watch over the installations. So IMO unions are a good idea but sometimes they overreact and bring down the rest of the country with them.
yes, because you are more important than them :/

sometimes you have to break an egg to make an omlette

they're only fighting for how they feel they should be treated

[davser]

Unions are alright for collective bargaining etc as it gives a single point of contact without the need for individual contracts.

Of course it all depends on who the reps are. if you are dealing with someone who works for the organisatio then you are more likely to have common aims than a career union official who may not have the same commitment to the company.

Problem in the UK is that the vast majority of unions give money to a political party (Labour) which I feel is too much of a conflict of interest. Also, they are members of te Labour executive which gives them direct influence over who is elected leader of that party.

If the likes of the CBI were to bankroll the conservative party there would be uproar 'Govt too linked to big business' would be the cry.

[LegionsofMarduk]

Nobody's forced to do anything. If the company doesn't want to pay people $45 an hour they can become a non-union workplace.

And the union sues them racking up millions in court and attorney fees. Thanks again union dues and overpriced, high profile lawyers.

yes, because you are more important than them :/

As a consumer and a customer of the company, yes. The consumer is ultimately more important than the employees of a company. Any company exists to make money. They make money by selling their services and/or products to customers. As a customer, I don't care how much the guy driving the truck makes. What I care about is that my package is delivered on time. If it's not, I go to a competitor. So now that the union is on strike, customer service goes down the tube. Me along with every other customer that is impacted takes our business elsewhere. So now, the company is not only forced into paying inflated wages to get it's employees back, but it's also just lost market share due to the however many customers that switched to a competitor that offers better service. After losing market share, the company finds itself in financial trouble and has to eliminate positions. Which throws the union into another strike. And the cycle repeats. No customers=no company=no jobs for anyone. Thanks again union guys.

they're only fighting for how they feel they should be treated

That they are somehow more worthy than the non-union guys at the shop down the road? That they should get a 20% raise every year even though their performance review sucked? That the company should pay for 100% of their medical insurance? That they should get all of that, be pampered and protected even though they do half the work of their non-union counterparts?

Some things I've seen advertising unions:
"Union shops are safer"
We have yet to have a major accident in the factory side of my work this year. Last year we had only 1 lost time accident and that was the guys own fault for not shutting his machine off before he tried to grab the spinning part. The plant I work at set a company wide record (for all locations of the company, worldwide) the year before last when we hit 2000 days without a lost time accident. That's over 5 years without a lost time accident. When was the last time a GM plant or a refinery went that long? hmmm...never.

"Hiring and promotion are written into the contrac, not left up to the discretion of the company. Seniority can be written into the contract"

So let me make sure I understand this...promotions are NOT based on performance. Hiring is NOT based on qualifications. Oh well I guess that's good. So I can do my work while the guy in the next cube to me doesn't do anything. Then come annual raises and we both get raises and promotions. But since he was hired the day before me, technically he's my senior. So even though he a worthless piece of dead weight that does nothing except waste time, oxygen and office space, he's now my boss. Great. Thanks union.

Employer determines wages, benefits and other terms and conditions of work. If you're not satisfied, your only option is to get another job.

You mean I might have to actually *gasp* take responsibility for myself!? What about my BMW sitting in the drive way!? If I have to actually WORK for a living, who's going to get it detailed for me? When am I going to be able to play golf!? What about my $500k house in the suburbs!? Or god forbid I might have to cut my monthly expenses! I can't cut out HBO! Oh the horror of having to actually suck it up and join the real world!!!

Like I said before. Unions use politics of fear. They served their purpose back in the beginning, but have become spoiled and greedy. Union workers are no better at their jobs than non-union workers. They don't do any higher quality work than non-union workers. They have driven, and will drive more work out of the US. I'm really really glad that we don't have a union where I work.

[Dave de Sylvia]

And the union sues them racking up millions in court and attorney fees. Thanks again union dues and overpriced, high profile lawyers.
k but you're exaggerating to a ridiculous degree and it makes any point you could possibly have difficult to take seriously

either that or you seriously believe unions are satan

[Danish]

Oh my, I bit off more than I can chew with this one!

[LegionsofMarduk]

k but you're exaggerating to a ridiculous degree and it makes any point you could possibly have difficult to take seriously

either that or you seriously believe unions are satan

:lol:

Well maybe not quite Satan himself, but not too far from it. And yes I am exaggerating some. But the points remain. Maybe not quiet to that extent, but they're still valid. I just think that unions have served their purpose and have since become outdated and now cause more problems than they solve. I do admit that the idea behind unions is great. Unions in theory are fine. But like so many other things, just because it looks good on paper doesn't mean it's that good in practice.

[Smokey D]

Almost by definition, unions can't become outdated because the moment they disappear, you have a problem again (the one where people aren't unionised and are therefore unable to bargain collectively).

[Mr. Ron]

This thread just reminds me of that Wal-mart documentary I watch and it's vicious anti-union measures. Disgusting.

[Reaganista]

they became co opted not outdated