Politics and it's effect on musical choices

[Der Übermensch]

So, there are a lot of dumb *** kids out there whose political ideas are gotten from musicians... They will do what Fat Mike tells them too.

So I don't think that any one dispute musical taste can often dictate political beliefs, but how much is the opposite true?

Will a neo-con enjoy Billy Bragg? An ardent Commie chill to Rush? I personally am not very discrimintating of my artists personal beliefs, but is the same true for other people?

[Jon]

all I know is that politics is going to tear my band apart unless we stop talking about it NOW.

having a left-wing german and a nationalist jewish brit in the same band is obviously going to cause tension.

don't mention the war.

I dunno, I'm in a band to make music, not to sit in the pub debating the ****ing economy. If I was, I'd be studying politics. gawd.

[peeted]

Well i quite like rage against the machine but i always feel a little bit sad when i listen to them.
I think that sometimes (this is the case with several people i know) people start out in their young teens just thinking what nofx or rage tell them to think but end up actually reading and eventually forming real opinions as a result.

I dont really listen to the lyrics of bands that much to be honest, if a band has lyrics i can relate to then thats a bonus but thats rarely the case.

[Iscariot]

i just like music for the music

i listen to everything from rage to nugent it's all gravy

[ringworm]

I guess it really depends on the band, I usually hate political driven music interfering with simply enjoying a good tune

i could have cared less what RATM was saying, I would listen to all their music, but for some reason as soon as Incubus made a few lyrics and statements, I just have no desire to ever hear them again

i love all the 60's-70's, but I cant stand to hear SOAD spit out some of his nonsense, even though I enjoy their music

so i didnt really answer anything :) I usually ride the fence on most political issues anyway, i can lean one way today and switch sides due to a different comment or unknown fact the next, same with my music

[Knifeboy]

I listen to Burzum, and I don't go around killing people.
..
Yeah

[Akira]

This is off-topic a little bit, but I think a band should only present politics if it is in their music. I mean, if a band like Anti-Flag sings a song about the WTO or depleted uranium and proceeds to tell the audience to go punkvoter.com and read about the issues, it is cool. When a band like Green Day plays a generic pop-punk song and then says "Bush sucks", that is just dumb.

[Iscariot]

lol what

punkvoter.com is about one step shy of having "Bush sucks" as their slogan what a stupid organization

[peeted]

Yea but anti flags live political rants are embarrassing. And if its getting kids thinking about issues then surely its better than them saying nothing at all?

[Dave de Sylvia]

No. Musicians aren't intelligent to begin with.

[Der Übermensch]

This is off-topic a little bit, but I think a band should only present politics if it is in their music. I mean, if a band like Anti-Flag sings a song about the WTO or depleted uranium and proceeds to tell the audience to go punkvoter.com and read about the issues, it is cool. When a band like Green Day plays a generic pop-punk song and then says "Bush sucks", that is just dumb.

But anti-flag sound like a bunch of whiney teenagers when they say that crap on stage...

[lunchforthesky]

I would never listen to Christian music, although it's not an issue as it is all worthless anyway, or at least what i have heard.

Obviously i wouldnt listen to any skinhead music, Skrewdriver, Angry Aryans etc.. regardless of the music itself.

I can tolerate music with crude and poorly crafted political messages such as NOFX but it its extremes it can be enough to put me off.

[MAthiAS]

I guess a reason I like stuff like Propagandhi is that it has got me thinking about issues I hadn't before.

[Akira]

But anti-flag sound like a bunch of whiney teenagers when they say that crap on stage...

The point is that there is a difference between political music and bands ragging on Bush just to be cool.

[Der Übermensch]

I would put anti-flag in the latter though.

[Akira]

I would put anti-flag in the latter though.

Whatever. We can agree to disagree.

[gregulus]

Honestly, it depends. If a band is really extreme and makes bland, mediocre music to begin with, then I probably won't listen to them. I love Billy Bragg beyond belief, but I don't agree with everything he says. Bands like Anti-Flag should just stop. Also, lol at a show I was at and one guy covered a Rush song and afterwards goes "That's what happens when you let drummers right lyrics and read Ayn Rand bullshit." Nothing pisses me off more than really extreme bands. I mainly come in contact with extremely left-wing bands, but I'm sure there's a fair amount of idiot right winged bands too.

[Ganondorf]

Haven't Anti-Flag always been somewhat politically inclined though?

[Der Übermensch]

Haven't Anti-Flag always been somewhat politically inclined though?
True, but their old political activism isn't the same crap they spew out at Warped Tour now.

[griftadan]

prussian blue ftl

[pedro durruti]

Haha, so says NOFXFreak. Hehehe. I won't listen to neo nazi or racist bands because I share like a commie on soulseek and I don't want to spread that crap even if it is ultimately harmless. Christian bands I don't mind so much.

[griftadan]

yeah i'm sorry hunter, i don't know how you could ever have liked that band

[Der Übermensch]

Nor do I...
I wish people would stop remembering that was my name here once :-\

[PerpetualBurn]

having a left-wing german and a nationalist jewish brit in the same band is obviously going to cause tension.


Not unless they're both massive cunts. But then the politics is incidental really.

[griftadan]

Nor do I...
I wish people would stop remembering that was my name here once :-\

it's ok mine is still my aol screenname i picked in 6th grade

[Akira]

True, but their old political activism isn't the same crap they spew out at Warped Tour now.

Hmm, I've never seen them live, I'm mostly just going off their albums.

[Der Übermensch]

it's ok mine is still my aol screenname i picked in 6th grade
I still use my middleschool aim name (bloodanguts1)... It's not that morbid though, it was a homage to Patton. I tried to make a new one more recently, but every permutation of Übermensch was taken...

Hmm, I've never seen them live, I'm mostly just going off their albums.
I saw them at Warped '04... Height of the "**** Bush" thing... every band was telling the audience how to vote.... annoying as **** (although I did get a laugh out of T(I)NC, they made a tough in cheek "vote communist" message).

[Knifeboy]

but every permutation of Übermensch was taken....


Even brmeehnscÜ?

[Der Übermensch]

ok... maybe not every

[Knifeboy]

I'd be willing to bet that hardly any of them were taken :p

[CarnageFairy]

You got politics in my music!
You got music in my politics!

I don't care about an artists' political message, ideals, or personal beliefs. I'm just here for the music.

[Der Übermensch]

I'd be willing to bet that hardly any of them were taken :p

All the ones that were still in order...

[Yield]

I wouldn't listen to neo nazi music, but other than that I don't really care. I don't care about the politics unless they're singing about it. So being "a dirty liberal" my friends say, I don't care about Rush's politics unless they're singing about it.

I don't really listen to Rush anyways so. I like Rage Against The Machine though. The only problem I have are the kids that form their opinions based on what they're being told without thinking at all.

[Der Übermensch]

I don't care about Rush's politics unless they're singing about it.

Most of their songs are about sucking up to Ayn Rand.

[Yield]

I don't really listen to Rush anyways

Yeah this. I don't really listen to Rush, and they aren't a band that I really feel like getting into (other than 2112, which was a recommendation).

[Dr Hooch]

I listen to some sorta-anarchist music just for the music

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE are certaintly an important part of growing up

both finding an outlet for your political frustrations and then working out that they're idiots and that nobody cares what you think

[lfantwister]

i listen to all sorts of music whose politics i disagree with. Hell I saw anti-flag last month right after going to work at the republican jewish coalition.

[thirdeyeblindislit]

I just hate when bands contradict themselves. For example, Antiflag is suppose to be fully against many things including capitalism, but a couple years after throwing out a huge protest against capitalism they signed to a major label....

Yeah the moral of this story if have your own damn mind not somebody elses. :thumb:

[lunchforthesky]

My favourite band, GY!BE are anarchists.

Althuogh there music is rather long winded in its delivery of such a message.

[italic zero]

i like 1-speed bike because they're amusing

[Danger Bird]

Yeah we all went through our RATM-told-me-to phase, but it's something most people grow out of.

[Linkinbassist]

Rage against the Machine have strong politics that i agree with. however, i have my own politics and bands may open doors to nw issues but they can't change my core values.

However, i am very anti-nazi and thus i never listen to any music with a Neo-nazi message.

[Der Übermensch]

republican jewish coalition.

Members being you, and Serenity wishing he could join? :p

[Smokey D]

I think musicians tend to have very underdeveloped political ideas that get simplified, co-opted and packaged for sales by more powerful interests. I think anyone that bases political views solely off music or what musicians say is limited to a pretty narrow spectrum, particularly since record companies will distribute artists who appeal to consumers rather than those with legitimate points.

But that's not to say that politics and music are or should be exclusive.

[lfantwister]

Members being you, and Serenity wishing he could join?
yeah yeah there's 2 jewish republicans. actually we submit that aobut 25% vote republican. don't know how accurate that is though

actually my last day's friday woohoo

[Der Übermensch]

I think musicians tend to have very underdeveloped political ideas that get simplified, co-opted and packaged for sales by more powerful interests.
Yepo...
The only political message of a musician I agree with is what Alice Cooper said. Something along the lines of "Anyone who bases their political beliefs on what a musician tells them shouldn't be voting anyways."

[PerpetualBurn]

My favourite band, GY!BE are anarchists.

Althuogh there music is rather long winded in its delivery of such a message.

So says the preacher man...but I don't go by what he says.

[pedro durruti]

I think musicians tend to have very underdeveloped political ideas that get simplified, co-opted and packaged for sales by more powerful interests. I think anyone that bases political views solely off music or what musicians say is limited to a pretty narrow spectrum, particularly since record companies will distribute artists who appeal to consumers rather than those with legitimate points.

But that's not to say that politics and music are or should be exclusive.
What about DIY, anarcho-folk punks that play shows in cafes and playgrounds?

[samariah]

I think musicians tend to have very underdeveloped political ideas that get simplified, co-opted and packaged for sales by more powerful interests. I think anyone that bases political views solely off music or what musicians say is limited to a pretty narrow spectrum, particularly since record companies will distribute artists who appeal to consumers rather than those with legitimate points.

But that's not to say that politics and music are or should be exclusive.

yea, pretty much

[Jon]

Yeah we all went through our RATM-told-me-to phase, but it's something most people grow out of.
thank god yeah :(

did anyone have a Che phase?

me neither (a)
I would never listen to Christian music, although it's not an issue as it is all worthless anyway, or at least what i have heard.

Obviously i wouldnt listen to any skinhead music, Skrewdriver, Angry Aryans etc.. regardless of the music itself.

I can tolerate music with crude and poorly crafted political messages such as NOFX but it its extremes it can be enough to put me off.
Skrewdriver, Bohse Onkelz, etc etc had really good non-skin music, shame they ruined their credibility forever by becoming nazis :(

[Dave de Sylvia]

Hindsight really is 20/20.

[Dr Hooch]

My favourite band, GY!BE are anarchists.

Althuogh there music is rather long winded in its delivery of such a message.

I think it's important to distinguish between the anti-flag semi-militant kind of anarchism and the GY!BE ethic. I always saw GY!BEs music as more of a requiem for the anarchist dream than any real "forcibly remove the government" kind of thing.

It's so beautiful though.... motherfu'cker = redeemer and LYSF remind me that the world is not a total loss after all sometimes...

[peeted]

did anyone have a Che phase?



HaHa i still were my Che T-shirt from time to time :upset:
That's mainly because i haven't grown in years and therefore haven't bought new clothes though.

[Der Übermensch]

I have a Che poster on my wall back home, but I got it more cause I love the irony than anything else...

[lunchforthesky]

I think it's important to distinguish between the anti-flag semi-militant kind of anarchism and the GY!BE ethic. I always saw GY!BEs music as more of a requiem for the anarchist dream than any real "forcibly remove the government" kind of thing.

It's so beautiful though.... motherfu'cker = redeemer and LYSF remind me that the world is not a total loss after all sometimes...

Even if their message is the same, which i wouldnt really know without talking to them, GY!BE just put forward their message so much more intelligently aqnd elequently. Anti Flag are just embaressing "**** the system" types.

I've been listening to Slow Riot For New Zero Kanada the most recently, very underrated.

[Africa]

idk whats going on in this thread but I think i speak for everyone when i say rock and roll is not an efficient way to rebel

[Dr Hooch]

Even if their message is the same, which i wouldnt really know without talking to them, GY!BE just put forward their message so much more intelligently aqnd elequently. Anti Flag are just embaressing "**** the system" types.

I've been listening to Slow Riot For New Zero Kanada the most recently, very underrated.

Oh, they're all underrated in a way ;)

In a certain mood or frame of mind every album is near perfection i guess.

"What do you think the world's gonna look like in 2003?"

"y'know, i'll tell you the truth - nothing against you guys, but i don't wanna answer that question because...i haven't even got a mind that's that...that inhumane. "
was released in '99

2001:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11
which led to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_iraq
in 2003...

Musical geniuses and so perceptive as well...

[Bron-Yr-Aur]

My favourite band, GY!BE are anarchists.

Yeah that always made me chuckle. Canadian anarchists have alot to prtoest about. That said, Lift Yo' Fists = <333

Anyway politics in music don't matter to me unless I agree with them. And even then, I don't take it too seriously as the artists aren't really doing anything much for their causes but putting out albums about them.

[Jon]

HaHa i still were my Che T-shirt from time to time :upset:
That's mainly because i haven't grown in years and therefore haven't bought new clothes though.
I had the 'classic' one that everyone had, grew out of liking it after probably a few weeks haha. Was too nice to break the news to my mum and since then she's bought me a further two, which I haven't even taken the tags off of..

:upset:

[GreyHam]

music can be a great way to inspire kids to get involved with politics, but thats it - its the stepping stone

[-1up!-]

Oddly enough, even though I study Politics, I'm almost completely turned off by political inclinations in music. I've pretty much stopped listening to punk for that reason. I never listened to RATM or NOFX or had a teenager punk phase though, so I was never really into politically-inclined music.

IMO Politics is a matter of debate and intellectual reflexion, miles away from music being the passionate molding of emotions into songs. If you want to talk politics, write an essay, not a song.


ninja edit: btw, never knew GY!BE were anarchos. I like how they don't talk about it though. Would pretty much spoil their amazing music. I'm sympathetic to anarchos though, so it's nice news.

[Dave de Sylvia]

I wouldn't say political music is any worse than the average political essay.

[GreyHam]

for a lot of people music is about self expression and education through an accesable medium. yea its not the best way of doing it but would you rather listen to a three minute punk song or read a 10'000 word dissertation

[croniun]

a 10,000 word dissertation =/

[GreyHam]

be my guest, i bets youns is a hit with the laydeez

[Der Übermensch]

10,000 words is pretty damn easy to get through.

[Iskandar]

10 000 words is what - 15-20 pages? I have a feeling that it's more, but it's still not that long. I read way more than that every day.

[italic zero]

it's around 30 pages in my regular formatting

[Der Übermensch]

Could be about that... maybe slight bit longer? But its still a relativly short essay

[italic zero]

no it's pretty long for an essay by most standards, but certainly not long for a reading

[Der Übermensch]

I've written close to a 10,000 page essay before in High School... It would be incredibly short for a dissertation essay...

[italic zero]

well yes for a dissertation

[Dr Hooch]

for a lot of people music is about self expression and education through an accesable medium. yea its not the best way of doing it but would you rather listen to a three minute punk song or read a 10'000 word dissertation

if it was a dramatic reading maybe

[Iskandar]

I've written close to a 10,000 page essay before in High School... It would be incredibly short for a dissertation essay...Man, I'm glad I didn't go to your school....

[Der Übermensch]

Man, I'm glad I didn't go to your school....

I was about double over the limit....

[Iskandar]

I was about double over the limit....
What was it on, incidentally?

Also, I don't know if you realized that you typed "10 000 page essay.";)

[Der Übermensch]

oops... silly me...

It was my APUSH final essay, on American Involvement in the Spanish Civil War.

[Iskandar]

oops... silly me...

It was my APUSH final essay, on American Involvement in the Spanish Civil War.
Yeah, there we go.

I haven't written an essay longer than probably 3000 words, even on Marxism or whatever else I felt strongly about in high school.

[Knifeboy]

I once had to write a short 500 word opinion essay on what I thought about organ donation
I wrote 150 words and got an A- :confused:

[croniun]

be my guest, i bets youns is a hit with the laydeez

I find that they usually like intelligence so...=/

[GreyHam]

reading doesn't make you intelligent...it makes you knowledgeable

meh, give me tuneage any day

[croniun]

It certainly doesn't hurt, right?

[GreyHam]

depends what your reading

[Dr Hooch]

nah, the more you read the better; so long as you don't accept everything you read.

[croniun]

ive been reading too much Nietzsche lately.

crazy old wackjob

[Der Übermensch]

Don't dis old Freddy!

[gregulus]

Nietzsche is the original OG. I mean, look at the 'stache.

[A Spoonful Supreme]

bob dylan's songs are fantastic, thats all i want to contribute to this thred

[Dr Hooch]

bob dylan's songs are fantastic, thats all i want to contribute to this thred

You can be in my dream if i can be in yours ;)

[croniun]

Don't dis old Freddy!

"A real man wants two things: danger and play. Therefore he wants woman as the most dangerous plaything. Man should be educated for war and woman for the recreation of the warrior; all else is folly"

:amaze:

Hehe I love reading Nietzsche :p

[Der Übermensch]

...and for some reason, people call him a misogynist... :p

[Smokey D]

reading doesn't make you intelligent...it makes you knowledgeable

meh, give me tuneage any day

Knowledge and intelligence have a feedback relationship.

[lfantwister]

Knowledge and intelligence have a feedback relationship.
not necessarily

[Iskandar]

not necessarily
Either one is useless without the other.

[Smokey D]

not necessarily

I'm pretty sure I'm smarter and more able to synthesise information, come up with better conclusions etc because of my knowledge. If I was just able to absorb information but hadn't had anything to absorb, it'd be a pretty useless.

Most psychologists incorporate knowledge into their definitions of intelligence.

[Dave de Sylvia]

I'd say the scores of fruitcake intellectuals on every college campus everywhere would point towards the "not necessarily" angle, but I see your point.

[italic zero]

yeah but they fruitcake intellectuals don't actually know that much, they just pretend to

[Dave de Sylvia]

Yeah but they, like, read books and stuff. By other idiots.

[Smokey D]

They're probably pretty smart, though. Just useless in real life.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Well that's what I mean. There's understanding of a given subject but no real basic intelligence to tie it to real life experiences.

[Smokey D]

But lots of intelligence to tie together abstract theoretical concepts, which is still pretty intelligent.

[lfantwister]

But lots of intelligence to tie together abstract theoretical concepts, which is still pretty intelligent.
other people tie the concepts together; they just read all about it. They're informed about intellectual concepts but couldnt create them themselves. THey dont have the ingenuity or anything that are the trademarks of intellect

[Der Übermensch]

Knowledge generally means intelligence, but Intelligence doesn't have to mean knowledge.

[Dave de Sylvia]

But lots of intelligence to tie together abstract theoretical concepts, which is still pretty intelligent.

Not if it's all nonsense.

[croniun]

other people tie the concepts together; they just read all about it. They're informed about intellectual concepts but couldnt create them themselves. THey dont have the ingenuity or anything that are the trademarks of intellect

True but not the case with everyone. Nietzsche wouldn't have been the man he was without Schopenhauer and yet Nietzsche's philosophy was his own...just to use an example.

[lfantwister]

True but not the case with everyone. Nietzsche wouldn't have been the man he was without Schopenhauer and yet Nietzsche's philosophy was his own...just to use an example.
Its clearly not the case for everyone. Doesnt mean it doesnt happen

[croniun]

Agreed.

[Smokey D]

Not if it's all nonsense.

You have to be pretty smart to tie nonsense into something coherent.


other people tie the concepts together; they just read all about it. They're informed about intellectual concepts but couldnt create them themselves. THey dont have the ingenuity or anything that are the trademarks of intellect

Synthesising information is a quality of intelligence.

[lfantwister]

Synthesising information is a quality of intelligence.
But its quite possible to know all sorts of information without applying it to discussions like this or synthesising it or anything. It only takes knowledge to know the stuff, but intelligence requires the application of knowledge in any given situation

[Smokey D]

I think you naturally synthesise information when exposed to enough of it, and you get better at synthesising the more you knowledge you have.

[lfantwister]

But only if you're intelligent. what you describe doesnt always happen

[Smokey D]

All I said was that they had a feedback meachanism. I never said it always happens.

Though I do think that even stupid people get more intelligent if they're exposed to more information.

[lfantwister]

That sounds fair

[Danish]

So, there are a lot of dumb *** kids out there whose political ideas are gotten from musicians... They will do what Fat Mike tells them too.

So I don't think that any one dispute musical taste can often dictate political beliefs, but how much is the opposite true?

Will a neo-con enjoy Billy Bragg? An ardent Commie chill to Rush? I personally am not very discrimintating of my artists personal beliefs, but is the same true for other people?

Well, I highly doubt any neocon would get as much out of Billy Bragg as I do! And Rush is one of my all-time favourites.

I actually just presented a paper at a conference entitled "The Working Class Aesthetics of Heavy Metal Culture". Heavy metal, as a genre, is a working-class culture, especially over the past 5-7 years. My main texts of analysis were Lamb of God - Ashes of the Wake, Remembering Never - God Save Us, and Unearth - The Oncoming Storm.

Left-wing politics is generally articulated through folk-styles of music or very aggressive styles of music (ie. hardcore).

[sam_o_lamo]

seriously there are a lot of kids out there that have no idea what the hell is going on outside of their own little world, and bands like anti-flag haven't really helped much, I'm not saying their opinions are wrong(I agree with most of it) but really doesn't everyone have at least one song about the government, or war, or the economy, or pie? Really I just let everyone have their opinion, and not get pissed when they say something I dont like

[Danish]

Sam, I don't think that's true. Anything that gets the wheels turning is good.

[Der Übermensch]

Well, I highly doubt any neocon would get as much out of Billy Bragg as I do! And Rush is one of my all-time favourites.
Doesn't the constant brown-nosing of Ayn Rand get on your nerves?
I like them a lot, but there are points when I'm just like, "shut up and sing about something else goddamit!!"

[Iskandar]

Doesn't the constant brown-nosing of Ayn Rand get on your nerves?
I like them a lot, but there are points when I'm just like, "shut up and sing about something else goddamit!!"They didn't do it too much, except in 2112 which was basically an entire album based on The Fountainhead....

[Danish]

They didn't do it too much, except in 2112 which was basically an entire album based on The Fountainhead....

Yea, exactly. And YYZ makes up for every word about Ayn Rand.

[Reaganista]

I always thought if you want to change the world
Then you have to start with yourself
So if the heads of state want to end terrorism
They should go ahead and kill themselves

I will not sign my blind faith away
To an unjustly leader of the unjust police state
Corporate masters live in their cess pool
Of extreme wealth and excess
Whoa oh Whoa oh

The phrase world leaders
Does not describe the heads of state
Those few in power
Work only for the corporate sake
No action, no interest, no humanity at all
As the corporate towers rise up
They watch the people fall

A government untouchable by the people
Run by the corporations of the world
Enslaving mothers, fathers, sons and daughters
Profits put before people
Equal force, equal reaction
Equal suppression, equal intimidation
Equal prosecution, equal propaganda,
Equal rebellion!

I will not sign my blind faith away
To an unjustly leader of the unjust police state
Corporate masters live in their cess pool
Of extreme wealth and excess
Whoa oh Whoa oh (Yeah!)

The phrase world leaders
Does not describe the heads of state
Those few in power
Work only for the corporate sake
No action, no interest, no humanity at all
As the corporate towers rise up...
We've got to make a change
No religions, sexual preference, and regardless of your race
We've got to make a change
No war, corporate run governments, no police state
We've got to make a change
For the good of the human race
We've got to make a change
For the good of the human race!

And you still look me in the eye
And you still wonder why...
Your cities ****in burn!

No borders, no nations
No flags, no patriots
Whoa oh Whoa oh (x5)

[GreyHam]

meh, anti flag arent a terrible band but ive heard better

punk was never about subtlety though - sex pistols lyrics were equally to the point and simple

[Reaganista]

one trillion dollars makes me wanna kill myself

[GreyHam]

One trillion dollars, could buy a lot of bling.

One trillion dollars, could buy most anything.

One trillion dollars, buying bullets! Buying guns!

One trillion dollars, in the hands of killers! Thugs!

(Woah)x3

**** the world, a lot of people gotta die tonight. . .

(Woah)x3

**** the world! Kill 'em all!

One trillion dollars, in Africa, Iraq.

One trillion dollars, and it's never coming back.

One trillion dollars, could buy some bad *** drugs.

One trillion dollars, makes me wanna kill myself!

(Woah)x3

**** the world, a lot of people gotta die tonight. . .

(Woah)x3

**** the world! (YEAH, YEAH) Kill 'em all!

Until the sun burns from the sky.

Until the sun burns so bright,

This world is no more!

The sun burns from the sky,

And all people are just dust on the ground. . .

One trillion dollars, could buy a heart! a soul!

One trillion dollars, buying nations, all the world.

One trillion dollars, could make the fat lady sing.

Ome trillion dollars, what a bullshit useless thing!

(Woah)x3

**** the world, a lot of people gotta die tonight. . .

(Woah)x3

**** the world, a lot of people gotta die tonight!
(Woah)x3

**** loads of money spent,

Will show us wrong from right.

**** the world, Kill 'em all. . .


that is pretty tragic

edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zp0Bju0H4Q4

wow... thats incredibly terrible. thats unbelievably bad

[Reaganista]

no you don't get it at all


they don't want to talk talk talk talk about it
they wanna tip toe walk around it

[Dr Hooch]

I always thought if you want to change the world
Then you have to start with yourself
So if the heads of state want to end terrorism
They should go ahead and kill themselves


:lol::lol::lol::lol:

I would totally marry that band

[sunshineplaysbass]

just about every single political band needs to grow up and realize they are done with high school and that whole f*** the world, government, president, whatever....they talk the talk but don't walk the walk

[gregulus]

i was into anti-flag when i was like 13. i'm pretty glad i'm not an idiot anymore.

[Sanjna]

green day - american idiot is tight

[Reaganista]

i was into anti-flag when i was like 13. i'm pretty glad i'm not an idiot anymore.
or so you think

[gregulus]

or so you think

no, i know :)

[Reaganista]

You don't have to be a racist, to be a Nazi ****. Your mindless nationalism gives you credentials enough. You spew your right wing rhetoric, when we get your attention. You've mistaken the punk scene for the republican convention.

[sexymuffin]

polotics in music doesn't matter much just like the lyrics in music don't matter too much.

i mean the first time you hear a song the lyrics might as well not even be there; you're into the music, the melody, the harmony, and the lyrics are just something to let you know there's some sort of message there.

only after a few listens or a reading of the lyrics do you actually get anything from the lyrics.

lyrics that are of opposing viewpoints to mine don't bother me because so what musicians are inherently retarded. That's why tool spends so long on their albums and is so cryptic/pretetious, because they desparately want to convince the world otherwise.

bands that come out and speak straight messages in their work obviously don't know the first thing about writing lyrics anyhow. They say it, but they forget to say it slant.

[Smokey D]

polotics in music doesn't matter much just like the lyrics in music don't matter too much.

That's wrong.

[sexymuffin]

That's wrong.

idk i don't see how lyrics matter any more than a guitar line or the percussion or the emotional quartet in the background

all of these instruments serve as a way to affect your emotions and are generally effective at what they do. The lyrics may give the melody more sticking power for people who don't listen to music for just the music, but definately don't take a bad song and make it good.

how much would lyrics matter if a song was in a language you don't understand? or if they're sang incomprehensibly? as i remember, "smells like teen spirit" had a lot of influence and popularity in the nineties, but cobain mumbled throughout.

i believe music is a universal langauge, and can stand on its own with or without lyrics; the only necessary components are melody and harmony.

[Pterydactal Macro]

A very large portion of my music is not in english, it doesn't matter, melody, harmony and rhythm are evocative enough for me.

[sexymuffin]

percisely

[Smokey D]

idk i don't see how lyrics matter any more than a guitar line or the percussion or the emotional quartet in the background

It depends on what sort of music it is, obviously.

Lyrics are far more important to Bob Dylan than they are to a concert pianist.

[sexymuffin]

It depends on what sort of music it is, obviously.

Lyrics are far more important to Bob Dylan than they are to a concert pianist.

well why are you listening to bob dylan's music? for the actual musical experience (melody/harmony)? or for the message (what he's saying)?

would bob dylan be relevant to someone who doesn't speak english?

[Pterydactal Macro]

A lot of hiphop music doesn't lyrically cater to what I want per se but it's sounds perfect and amazing without a relation to the lyrics. I'm willing to say the case can be the same with Dylan, his voice and the nostalgia and his familiarity probably comes into factor also... and really hip hop is very lyrically focused, but regardless the aural experience is paramount, not the literal one.

[Smokey D]

well why are you listening to bob dylan's music? for the actual musical experience (melody/harmony)? or for the message (what he's saying)?

would bob dylan be relevant to someone who doesn't speak english?

You know when I said 'it depends what kind of music it is'? That's what I meant. Obviously the lyrics are the primary focus of his music, and would probably have relevance even without melody and rhythm. But that's not the same as saying the music is unimportant.

Conversely, even songs (consider the word song used to only mean pieces with lyrics; technically, an instrumental isn't a song at all) that focus on the music don't necessarily intend for the audience not to hear what is being said. If a musician just wanted you to hear the music, he wouldn't include words at all.

[GreyHam]

this is truth

artists dont spend time thinking through lyrics and crafting them just so people will ignore them.

whatever your opinions on the bands may be, compare blink 182 lyrics to tool lyrics, and think which band spent the time really thinking about the words to be sung, and how to be sung, as opposed to what sounds easy on the ears

[Meatplow]

I knew a lot of RATM freaks in high school who took their beliefs and ideas to heart, and i always found that kind of lame. That said I got political interest from that band myself, ideas began to form. I've always been one to look at several sources before forming an opinion though.

One of the major things that ruined RATM for me was the political views, i was quite intrigued to hear Renegades because many of the songs on there didn't have political leanings and were actually fun to listen to. Audioslave was interesting in that sense as well even if some of the songs were slight, i preferred the straight up rock element which allowed the band to breath a bit (at least initially).

I am convinced that if i want to investigate and research social ethics and politics that i should tread carefully using music as a source. Music has always been a powerful tool to get across ideology and it allows a lot of extreme viewpoints to get across without offering other views on the topic.

[GreyHam]

id giggle heavily if someone wrote a song where the lyrics provided a balanced argument showing both sides of the argument and coming to a logical and rational conclusion

and then cited its sources in a full, harvard referenced bibliography...

[Meatplow]

It's an impossible format to do that in without looking like a toss.

[sexymuffin]

this is truth

artists dont spend time thinking through lyrics and crafting them just so people will ignore them.

whatever your opinions on the bands may be, compare blink 182 lyrics to tool lyrics, and think which band spent the time really thinking about the words to be sung, and how to be sung, as opposed to what sounds easy on the ears

tool lyrics are a joke.

You know when I said 'it depends what kind of music it is'? That's what I meant. Obviously the lyrics are the primary focus of his music, and would probably have relevance even without melody and rhythm. But that's not the same as saying the music is unimportant.

Conversely, even songs (consider the word song used to only mean pieces with lyrics; technically, an instrumental isn't a song at all) that focus on the music don't necessarily intend for the audience not to hear what is being said. If a musician just wanted you to hear the music, he wouldn't include words at all.

the intent of the musicians doesn't have any relevance to how their music is recieved by the public. lyrics get misinterperated all the time, and entirely forgotten as well. if you were to ask a random someone on the street what Don McLean's idealogies were, they'd look at you funny and probably ask who you're talking about. But if you were to go up to someone and start singing "bye bye mrs. american pie drove my chevy etc" i can assure you they'd be able to join in with the chorus.

Then ask them what the song means and prepare for a shrug or a confused look on their face because they don't care what the song means just like the majority of america. It's catchy, it's in their langauge, and they hear it on the radio every once and a while.

just because you're hearing and registering the lyrics of a song doesn't mean you're getting anything more than a melody out of it, and this happens all the time.

[Der Übermensch]

whatever your opinions on the bands may be, compare blink 182 lyrics to tool lyrics, and think which band spent the time really thinking about the words to be sung, and how to be sung, as opposed to what sounds easy on the ears
Not the best band to use in a comparison...

[Pterydactal Macro]

this is truth

artists dont spend time thinking through lyrics and crafting them just so people will ignore them.

whatever your opinions on the bands may be, compare blink 182 lyrics to tool lyrics, and think which band spent the time really thinking about the words to be sung, and how to be sung, as opposed to what sounds easy on the ears
hahah

[sexymuffin]

okay compare the mars volta lyrics and greenday witch won is better

[Dr Hooch]

Then ask them what the song means and prepare for a shrug or a confused look on their face because they don't care what the song means just like the majority of america. It's catchy, it's in their langauge, and they hear it on the radio every once and a while.


:upset: bye bye Buddy Holly

[GreyHam]

tool lyrics are a joke.





perhaps, but theyve clearly been well thought out with regards to the instrumentation theyre accompanied by

[Der Übermensch]

perhaps, but theyve clearly been well thought out with regards to the instrumentation theyre accompanied by
The lyrics to Sex and Violence are well thought out in regards to the instrumentation...
That doesn't equate with them being deep though.

[sexymuffin]

perhaps, but theyve clearly been well thought out with regards to the instrumentation theyre accompanied by

what does that even mean?

[italic zero]

i assume it means poetic meter

[sexymuffin]

tool doesn't write in meter

they write in ambiguous, over-the-top pretension that they sell as artistic and ground-breaking

but the fans are probably the worst part about the band tbh because they eat it all up

[italic zero]

tool writes in meter just like almost every other band

[sexymuffin]

structured meter or freeverse or what? when i think meter i think blank verse, with iambs, or some consistant form of stressed/unstressed patterns.

just because it rhymes and goes with the rhythm doesn't mean it's following any specific meter of stressed and unstressed syllables. Not to mention singing makes it easy to circumvent the rules of meter as it doesn't need to be exact to work. You can make approximate rhymes sound perfect or stretch a syllable to avoid filling space or padding (structuring a line to work in meter in a way that would sound unnatural in normal speech).

[italic zero]

analyze almost any song and you'll find a semi-regular meter

waiting like a stalking butler
who upon the finger rests

trochaic tetrameter (with a rest on the final syllable of the second line)

[sexymuffin]

okay here is "Stinkfist" by Tool

Something has to change.
Undeniable dilemma.
Boredom's not a burden anyone should bear.
Constant over stimulation numbs me
But I would not want you any other way.
Just not enough.
I need more.
Nothing seems to satisfy.
I said, I don't want it.
I just need it.
To breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.

Finger deep within the borderline.
Show me that you love me and that we belong together.
Relax, turn around and take my.

I can help you change tired moments into pleasure.
Say the word and we'll be well upon our waaay.
Blend and balance pain and comfort deep within you
till you will not want me any other way.
But it's not enough.
I need more.
Nothing seems to satisfy.
I said, I don't want it.
I just need it.
To breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.

Knuckle deep inside the borderline.
This may hurt a little but it's something you'll get used to.
Relax. Slip awaaaaaaaay.

Chupa minha pica pichu
Chupa minha pica pinto

Something kinda sad about,
the way that things have come to be.
Desensitized to everything.
What became of subtlety?

How can it mean anything to me,
if I really don't feel a thing at all?

I'll, keep, digging
till I, feel, something.

Elbow deep inside the borderline.
Show me that you love me and that we belong together.
Shoulder deep within the borderline.
Relax, turn around and take my hand.

if that is consistancy in meter then i don't know why i've been bothering doing any work in creative writing

[Smokey D]

the intent of the musicians doesn't have any relevance to how their music is recieved by the public.

Except how it's meant to be received, maybe.

lyrics get misinterperated all the time, and entirely forgotten as well. if you were to ask a random someone on the street what Don McLean's idealogies were, they'd look at you funny and probably ask who you're talking about. But if you were to go up to someone and start singing "bye bye mrs. american pie drove my chevy etc" i can assure you they'd be able to join in with the chorus.

Oh, you mean like how the lyrics must form an important part of the song if they are what people remember the most. Oh yeah.

Also, you'd have to be pretty stupid not to guess what Don McClean's getting at.

Then ask them what the song means and prepare for a shrug or a confused look on their face because they don't care what the song means just like the majority of america. It's catchy, it's in their langauge, and they hear it on the radio every once and a while.

It doesn't mean the lyrics aren't important.

just because you're hearing and registering the lyrics of a song doesn't mean you're getting anything more than a melody out of it, and this happens all the time.

Even if you're only subconsciouly absorbing the lyrics, you're getting more than a melody out of it.

And anyway, as I have already said twice, it depends on the music style. SOme music intends for the lyrics to just be a vehicle for melody. Some music intends for the melody to convey the lyrics. The artist will construct the music around his intention, which usually makes it pretty hard for the listener not to do what the band wants when hearing it.

[italic zero]

okay here is "Stinkfist" by Tool



if that is consistancy in meter then i don't know why i've been bothering doing any work in creative writing
it's obviously not close to regular (mostly because of rests—can't do those in poetry), but neither is it close to being ametrical. I'll concede that traditional poetic terminology often isn't all that useful in describing it because of the difference in forms, but my original point stands, which was that the interplay between word stress and musical stress is the essential point of interaction between music and lyrics. In examining the meter of a song's lyrics, it's sometimes impossible to seperate it from the music, but they are both nonetheless metrical.

[sexymuffin]

Except how it's meant to be received, maybe.
it doesn't really matter how a peice is meant to be recieved once it's out in the public.

it's recieved however the public wants to recieve it.

Oh, you mean like how the lyrics must form an important part of the song if they are what people remember the most. Oh yeah.

people make a much stronger connection with the melody of a song than anything the singer is saying. I can easily hum the melody to the verses of American Pie (and many other songs, as i'm sure plenty of people can) but i don't know the words. American pie's chorus is so well known because they're everywhere, the radio, car commercials, even parodied by weird al yankovich.

Also, you'd have to be pretty stupid not to guess what Don McClean's getting at.

maybe you overestimate the intelligence and perception of your average music fan.

It doesn't mean the lyrics aren't important.

i never said they weren't important, just not as important as most people like to think they are. Obviously they give the listener a familiar language to identify with and it enhances the mood of a peice (especially if the lyrics are well-written), but they're no more important than the bass line or guitar work or a drum fill at the beginning of a song. All these peices come together to capture a feeling and connect with the listener.

Even if you're only subconsciouly absorbing the lyrics, you're getting more than a melody out of it.

but the melody is the only reason you're listening. unless you want to argue that every music fan in the world would enjoy spoken word poetry, it's hard to say that these lyrics would be noticed by the general public without a strong melodic hook.

it's obviously not close to regular (mostly because of rests—can't do those in poetry), but neither is it close to being ametrical. I'll concede that traditional poetic terminology often isn't all that useful in describing it because of the difference in forms, but my original point stands, which was that the interplay between word stress and musical stress is the essential point of interaction between music and lyrics. In examining the meter of a song's lyrics, it's sometimes impossible to seperate it from the music, but they are both nonetheless metrical.

well i see what you're saying but i don't see how tool accomplishes this any better than pop musicians.

if anything easy listening pop music dominates in this area.

[italic zero]

well i wasn't the one that brought up tool

[sexymuffin]

yeah i wasn't saying you were, that was just my original confusion with what Grayham meant with his post.

[Meatplow]

Tool are pretentious lyrically, as has been said. At least for my tastes anyway.

The amount of people citing them as brilliant is a turn off. They are suitable for the music with some good lines but hardly poetry.

[sexymuffin]

precisely

[Reaganista]

anti-flag lyrics are all masterfully wrought and with deep meanings

Go go go go go go dancer (x2)

I was talking to this girl before a show
Does she like me? I don't know
I asked her to go out on Saturday night
She said "OK that would be alright"
Then she left she had to go to work
She gave me her number she said, "I feel like a jerk."
I asked her if she'd dance for a song
She said she'd be dancing all night long

Go go go go go go dancer (x3)
She's my little fast kids Go-Go-Go

She didn't tell me she danced in a cage
Hanging high above the stage
I worked my way closer with a push and a shove
Before I knew it I was in love
I waited every second until Saturday night
I took her to dinner things were going alright
Then we went out dancing went to have some fun
We danced and we danced - danced all night long

Go go go go go go dancer (x3)
She's my little fast kids Go-Go-Go

Go go go go go go dancer (x2)

She's my little go-go dancer (x6)

She's my fast kids Go-Go-Go (x3)

Go go go go go go dancer (x3)
She's my little fast kids Go-Go-Go

[Mr. Ron]

Is this something to do between classes?
Your rebellion is expiring fast
Because in four years you'll have a career
And all this will be a part of your past
You're just part of the system
Another cog in the machine
Soon to be what you despise
And you could never wipe your hands clean

So this is a part of your maturity
It's a choice you ****ing made
Is this the price of growing older?
Your path has been pre-paved
Put your hobby to rest
because you had your cake and ate it too
Put away the part time revolutions
Don't worry well pick up the slack again

[Smokey D]

it doesn't really matter how a peice is meant to be recieved once it's out in the public.

it's recieved however the public wants to recieve it.

Except for authenticity, maybe.

And you say that as if how the artist wants it to be interpreted won't affect how it is interpreted or even what it sounds like.

people make a much stronger connection with the melody of a song than anything the singer is saying. I can easily hum the melody to the verses of American Pie (and many other songs, as i'm sure plenty of people can) but i don't know the words. American pie's chorus is so well known because they're everywhere, the radio, car commercials, even parodied by weird al yankovich.

Why do you find it hard to accept that it depends on the type of music?

maybe you overestimate the intelligence and perception of your average music fan.

The day the music died isn't the most subtle refrain.

i never said they weren't important, just not as important as most people like to think they are. Obviously they give the listener a familiar language to identify with and it enhances the mood of a peice (especially if the lyrics are well-written), but they're no more important than the bass line or guitar work or a drum fill at the beginning of a song. All these peices come together to capture a feeling and connect with the listener.

A person not familiar with music is going to have a lot more trouble connecting to the complexities of guitar and drum work than they are with lyrics.

And I've been saying that depending on the type of music, lyrics support the instruments or are supported by them. You can't say lyrics have the same role in all types of music, though.

but the melody is the only reason you're listening. unless you want to argue that every music fan in the world would enjoy spoken word poetry, it's hard to say that these lyrics would be noticed by the general public without a strong melodic hook.

You're arguing that every person isn't affected by the lyrics, which is equally as implausible.

[A Spoonful Supreme]

people make a much stronger connection with the melody of a song than anything the singer is saying. I can easily hum the melody to the verses of American Pie (and many other songs, as i'm sure plenty of people can) but i don't know the words. American pie's chorus is so well known because they're everywhere, the radio, car commercials, even parodied by weird al yankovich.


I support this. Music and its frequencies have an immediate affect on us whereas the cognition of words takes much longer but ferments and is longer lasting - uplifting a song but not exactly making that song what it is. So really, in the context of music, anybody who takes the words over the music as their main impression of that particular song is digging a little deeper into the music than the "average" listener who simply enjoys the frequencies. And let's not forget that vowels = musical notes so we shouldn't confuse words as being entirely words and not music.

[sexymuffin]

Why do you find it hard to accept that it depends on the type of music?

because it doesn't. whether it's britney spears singing about being driven crazy over some electronic pop beat or bonnie "prince" billy softly crooning over folk guitar, the melody is what will always set the mood at the beginning of the song, regardless of the lyrical content. It's that same melody that inspires the emotions in people listening to the song, which can be enhanced by the lyrics of the singer, but the lyrics are no more important than how the song is being sang or how the music is being played.

this is true for all genres of music.

The day the music died isn't the most subtle refrain.

maybe you overestimate the intelligence and perception of your average music fan.

A person not familiar with music is going to have a lot more trouble connecting to the complexities of guitar and drum work than they are with lyrics.

you don't need to know anything about guitar, bass, or xylophones to feel the emotions emulated by the melodies they can play. melody is far easier to connect with than language, because it inspires feelings in us that we don't even have to be paying attention to feel. Language, however, requires knowledge of its workings to understand what is being said; otherwise we'd be able to draw what Don Mclean was getting at if he sang the song in sweden.

Music is used in film to help the audience feel what the director/composer wants them to feel at a certain part in the film, and you'll notice most music and film doesn't have lyrics at all; because even in the background of things, music can inspire emotion and feeling, which lyrics cannot.

i mean, think about lullabies and their affect on infants. the children can't even understand language yet, but the soft calming music can put them to sleep.


And I've been saying that depending on the type of music, lyrics support the instruments or are supported by them. You can't say lyrics have the same role in all types of music, though.

I agree, but only to an extent. Just because lyrics may have different roles in different types of music doesn't mean that it negates anything i've been saying, the lyrics are still no more important than the other instruments, and this applies to all genres of music.

the sound an artist creates in his or her music is unique to them, and they may want to include really thought provoking lyrics that really dig deep into the soul of music fans who are into that sort of thing, but nobody is going to listen if they don't like the sound to begin with.

You're arguing that every person isn't affected by the lyrics, which is equally as implausible.

i'm arguing that lyrics' affect on listeners is much less than what most people would claim.

[Smokey D]

because it doesn't. whether it's britney spears singing about being driven crazy over some electronic pop beat or bonnie "prince" billy softly crooning over folk guitar, the melody is what will always set the mood at the beginning of the song, regardless of the lyrical content. It's that same melody that inspires the emotions in people listening to the song, which can be enhanced by the lyrics of the singer, but the lyrics are no more important than how the song is being sang or how the music is being played.

I don't understand how you can think melody can be equally more important than lyrics in all songs.

maybe you overestimate the intelligence and perception of your average music fan.


Maybe, but I doubt it.

you don't need to know anything about guitar, bass, or xylophones to feel the emotions emulated by the melodies they can play. melody is far easier to connect with than language, because it inspires feelings in us that we don't even have to be paying attention to feel. Language, however, requires knowledge of its workings to understand what is being said; otherwise we'd be able to draw what Don Mclean was getting at if he sang the song in sweden.

Certainly helps. Music crosses language barriers, but it's not a 100% transition. Hook and rhythm dominated music like pop or dance music are a lot easier to transfer than Bob Dylan or Cat Stevens.


Music is used in film to help the audience feel what the director/composer wants them to feel at a certain part in the film, and you'll notice most music and film doesn't have lyrics at all; because even in the background of things, music can inspire emotion and feeling, which lyrics cannot.

Not all music can do that, though.



i mean, think about lullabies and their affect on infants. the children can't even understand language yet, but the soft calming music can put them to sleep.

Oh yeah, you mean like how lyrics aren't necessary for one particular kind of music like lullabies. I like how that proves lyrics aren't relevant for all kinds of music.

I agree, but only to an extent. Just because lyrics may have different roles in different types of music doesn't mean that it negates anything i've been saying, the lyrics are still no more important than the other instruments, and this applies to all genres of music.

If I said lyrics are more important in some songs, I never meant to imply that other parts of the music aren't important.

the sound an artist creates in his or her music is unique to them, and they may want to include really thought provoking lyrics that really dig deep into the soul of music fans who are into that sort of thing, but nobody is going to listen if they don't like the sound to begin with.

That's not true.


i'm arguing that lyrics' affect on listeners is much less than what most people would claim.

And I'm saying how much it impacts is dependent on the what sort of music we find the lyrics in.

I support this. Music and its frequencies have an immediate affect on us whereas the cognition of words takes much longer but ferments and is longer lasting - uplifting a song but not exactly making that song what it is.

Technically, a song must include words.

[GreyHam]

okay here is "Stinkfist" by Tool



if that is consistancy in meter then i don't know why i've been bothering doing any work in creative writing

does it really matter? its a good song

[italic zero]

i think you missed the point

[GreyHam]

im pretty sure the debate about wether a song is written in meter, also, defeats the point (one I initially made...)

[sexymuffin]

And I'm saying how much it impacts is dependent on the what sort of music we find the lyrics in.

agree to disagree, i'm bored of this one.