We'll all die unless you help

[Drmckool]

you heard the title

the fact is global warming is a real problem and it needs everyone's attention. Studies from environment Canada show that 2007 will be the hottest year ever. but years like this can be avoided if we just cut emmissions and conserve energy. i'm not asking people to do anything radical either i'm just stateing that if we stop driving massive cars and turn off the lights in rooms that we are not useing then we can make a huge change.

the truth is with something this big one person cannot make a difference but if many people band together a real difference can indeed be made. it is now the people and politicians of the world that need to realise that this needs to be fixed

i don't care if this topic has been discussed to death because the fact is it needs to be discussed more.

Think about it and do the right thing, because the truth is we will all be in serious trouble unless everyone helps. to quote public enemy "it takes a nation of millions to hold us down" and that is what is happening but i'm trying to change that

the fact is that i am scared out of my mind on what the future holds and i want my crand children to see snow and not live in some sort of environmental refugee camp.

who's with me

thanks for reading

[CarnageFairy]

i'm not asking people to do anything radical either i'm just stateing that if we stop driving massive cars and turn off the lights in rooms that we are not useing then we can make a huge change.

I've been doing that since before Al Gore has been telling me to.

Where's my ****ing medal?

[Africa]

aha... aha....ah ah ah aha hah aha hahaha HHA HAHAHHHH

Outrageous...

[WhoDidTheElf]

I will continue to drive my big block 502 corvette that gets 6 miles to the gallon and doesn't have cat's on it, because I care about the envrionment sooooo much.

[Iscariot]

global warming is helping me save money on my winter heating bill so i'm all for it

[Knifeboy]

What the average person does won't matter worth ****...
Nothing will change untill corporations are forced to cut down on emissions

[Africa]

True ^ and what does it matter isn't the messiah comin soon to wisk us away to heaven so really it doesnt matter god wants us to bling

[RNR]

What the average person does won't matter worth ****...
Nothing will change untill corporations are forced to cut down on emissions

That's the same attitude as "my vote doesn't count, it's only one out of millions" but we all know how dumb that is.

[Otherside]

Out generation is way to apathetic about everything to even lift a finger about global warming, which is why I'm going to open the first winter-time water park.

[Dinosawesome]

That's the same attitude as "my vote doesn't count, it's only one out of millions" but we all know how dumb that is.
Except that you don't have people around that give out 10 millions votes.

Corporations on the other hand...

[Illmatic]

the fact is global warming is a real problem and it needs everyone's attention. Studies from environment Canada show that 2007 will be the hottest year ever. but years like this can be avoided if we just cut emmissions and conserve energy. i'm not asking people to do anything radical either i'm just stateing that if we stop driving massive cars and turn off the lights in rooms that we are not useing then we can make a huge change.

the truth is with something this big one person cannot make a difference but if many people band together a real difference can indeed be made. it is now the people and politicians of the world that need to realise that this needs to be fixed

i don't care if this topic has been discussed to death because the fact is it needs to be discussed more.

Think about it and do the right thing, because the truth is we will all be in serious trouble unless everyone helps. to quote public enemy "it takes a nation of millions to hold us down" and that is what is happening but i'm trying to change that

the fact is that i am scared out of my mind on what the future holds and i want my crand children to see snow and not live in some sort of environmental refugee camp.

who's with me

thanks for reading

typical pessimistic doomsday rhetoric...one of the main reasons environmentalism is given such a bad name.

[Anxious]

you heard the title

the fact is global warming is a real problem and it needs everyone's attention. Studies from environment Canada show that 2007 will be the hottest year ever. but years like this can be avoided if we just cut emmissions and conserve energy. i'm not asking people to do anything radical either i'm just stateing that if we stop driving massive cars and turn off the lights in rooms that we are not useing then we can make a huge change.

the truth is with something this big one person cannot make a difference but if many people band together a real difference can indeed be made. it is now the people and politicians of the world that need to realise that this needs to be fixed

i don't care if this topic has been discussed to death because the fact is it needs to be discussed more.

Think about it and do the right thing, because the truth is we will all be in serious trouble unless everyone helps. to quote public enemy "it takes a nation of millions to hold us down" and that is what is happening but i'm trying to change that

the fact is that i am scared out of my mind on what the future holds and i want my crand children to see snow and not live in some sort of environmental refugee camp.

who's with me

thanks for reading


Prove it.

[TheDarkHorse]

Global warming doesnt exist

[Anxious]

Its generally accepted that it does, but whether humans have a role or not is up for debate.

[jeffro]

The only real way I can see to slow it down is for tighter government regulations on cars and public improved public transportation and stuff, because not enough people care to actually make a difference. Global warming is inevitable though because most of it does occur naturally.

[Knifeboy]

That's the same attitude as "my vote doesn't count, it's only one out of millions" but we all know how dumb that is.

No it isn't...
And the two situations are not comparable

[bradc1988]

What the average person does won't matter worth ****...
Nothing will change untill corporations are forced to cut down on emissions

And you have the stats/reports to prove this?

[The Stig]

Because the month of April definitly didn't set records of postponed MLB games due to cold weather.

And it is hotly debated whether or not global warming is caused by people.

[Kage]

Except that you don't have people around that give out 10 millions votes.

Corporations on the other hand...

I would say this is a very good point.

[bradc1988]

Wait so companies have to cut down emissions, but all the energy and megatons of CO2 and such released by our waste and negligence is acceptable?

[Iskandar]

Even if global warming is somehow not connected to human activity (hard to argue when it's only become an issue in the latter half of this century, which has been marked by an explosion of population and industrial activity) environmental stewardship is something we as a society should be practicing anyway. Polluting emissions are bad news no matter how you slice it.

[griftadan]

That's the same attitude as "my vote doesn't count, it's only one out of millions" but we all know how dumb that is.

it's not dumb at all, if the candidate wins by more than one vote then your vote doesn't matter at all

[Jharaski]

Actually I thought the government was the largest polluter of all? Or maybe just per capita.

But yeah. The average citizen won't matter, it's how companies act. I guess if we can force companies to be more responsible, but let's be reasonable here.

[Africa]

http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view_rec.php?id=1036

Oh look it's China hard at work making stuff for us

Basically, it's how consumers act with companies act with consumers

[griftadan]

ok yeah businesses pollute more, but they also make our country work. restricting them means restricting the economy.

[Iskandar]

ok yeah businesses pollute more, but they also make our country work. restricting them means restricting the economy.Hurting the planet means hurting the economy in the long run.

[griftadan]

Hurting the planet means hurting the economy in the long run.

well it's not a zero sum game, it's just something to consider. is it worth it to hold back the economy in the long run, how much should we do?

[Iskandar]

well it's not a zero sum game, it's just something to consider. is it worth it to hold back the economy in the long run, how much should we do?It just seems clear to me that the environment must be protected to the best of our ability. It's a resource that must be managed carefully and respected.

[Surtr]

Hahaha.

Omgz guyz srs problum hur quick halp!

<_<

>_>

Honestly, we're well aware of this whole global warming thing, and unless you've come to present something new, thanks but no thanks, I do all this stuff anyways.

[Dr Hooch]

Good reasons for saving energy:

It's expensive
We're running out
Fossil fuels will run out and we haven't yet got the technology to fully replace them

Bad reasons:
UNSTOPPABLE CLIMATE CHANGE
It will always be economically viable to finish off the fossil fuels so the fossil fuels in the ground now WILL eventually end up burned whether it's by your car tomorrow or by some chinese man's car in 5 years time the same amount of carbon is gonna end up in the sky

I wish the government would stop trying to convince themselves that taxing 4x4s a little extra will do anything to help anyone ever and start investing in flood defenses because humanity declared war on nature long ago and the counter attacks are a'coming

[Smokey D]

Climate change might be inevitable, but its extent isn't.

[beso negro]

Out generation is way to apathetic about everything to even lift a finger about global warming

Don't make the mistake of romanticizing the past and understating the present. People want to do that with everything and i hate it.

Our generation is just as active as the others. Not everyone in the 70's and 60's gave a ****. Especially whites. We could be the next "great generation." My anthropology teacher told me that. :p

[EinzingerIsGod]

Its generally accepted that it does, but whether humans have a role or not is up for debate.

And it's recently been determined within the scientific community that the human impact far outweighs the natural warming of the earth.

[pedro durruti]

It just seems clear to me that the environment must be protected to the best of our ability. It's a resource that must be managed carefully and respected.
What

You are a hippy

[Knifeboy]

And you have the stats/reports to prove this?

found via google
http://www.socialfunds.com/news/article.cgi/132.html

"According to the report, 122 corporations are responsible for 80 percent of the carbon emissions contributing to global warming, "

Because the month of April definitly didn't set records of postponed MLB games due to cold weather.

And it is hotly debated whether or not global warming is caused by people.

Global warming isn't really that great of a name, because the extreme heating of some places, will create a counterreaction with extreme cold other places


And it's only really hotly debated by people who have hands in the pockets of companies like exxon

[beso negro]

Global warming isn't really that great of a name, because the extreme heating of some places, will create a counterreaction with extreme cold other places

srsly haven't you guys seen the day after tomorrow.

that movie was terrible though

[ringworm]

Studies from environment Canada show that 2007 will be the hottest year ever
And last year was supposed to be another "major" hurricane season too, oops :)

revenue and development will always trump enviro-friendly decisions, sadly enough

[HazMatBlue]

during the medieval warming period Greenland was wonderful farming land. we've got a ways to go before global warming is a problem and current steps (Kyoto protocol) to slow it in my opinion are pretty close to curbing those nasty effects if they were implemented in every country. My main worry is developing countries a with governments that don't care at all, think china.

ethanol is gonna make a big difference in those carbon emissions, much as we worry about oil companies hurting the environment their oil is going to be replaced by corn soon enough by way of simple economics

[Monticello]

I'm not too concerned with Global Warming right now. All it means is slightly warmer winters, and I'm perfectly fine with that. When climate change does become more of a problem, that's when it'll turn out that the clever people in the world haven't been sitting on their asses for the past 10 years. Advances are being made.

[spitfirejunky]

Even if global warming is somehow not connected to human activity (hard to argue when it's only become an issue in the latter half of this century, which has been marked by an explosion of population and industrial activity) environmental stewardship is something we as a society should be practicing anyway. Polluting emissions are bad news no matter how you slice it.

Quoted for truth.

[Swill_Merchant]

Don't make the mistake of romanticizing the past and understating the present. People want to do that with everything and i hate it.

Our generation is just as active as the others. Not everyone in the 70's and 60's gave a ****. Especially whites. We could be the next "great generation." My anthropology teacher told me that. :p

True, most black people couldn't afford cool stuff like cars, so they couldn't do anything. but since ethnic people can drive, we have found our problem, take cars away from coloreds.

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

I'll be more "eco-friendly" when being "eco-friendly" doesn't suck

Capitalism will come up with a solution for it

[WhoDidTheElf]

I'll be more "eco-friendly" when being "eco-friendly" doesn't suck

Capitalism will come up with a solution for it

I told this to my envrionmental teacher, he prolly thought about killing me right then.

[italic zero]

there are a few major venture capitalists who are starting to get into alternative energy

[lfantwister]

i say alternative planet. that way we can screw up earth as much as we like

[thirdeyeblindislit]

Prove it.

Well If I may take a shot at this:

First off global warming is defined in the dictionary as “an increase in the average temperature of the earth's atmosphere, especially a sustained increase sufficient to cause climatic change.”
Now I do agree that it’s not only humans that have caused this disaster. It does have a lot to do with the magnetic fields, earths orbit and the sun’s rays and etc etc…
But what is true is that humans and fossil fuels DO contribute to the global warming more than anything. Just a couple months ago (February 2007), a report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change or otherwise the group known as the IPCC, represented the work of over 2500 scientists from more than 120 countries and that report stated that human activity has been the primary cause of global warming since 1950 due to the fact that more and more fossil fuels are being burnt and turned into greenhouse gases and the carbon dioxide that we as human beings breath out during respiration also contributes to greenhouse gases and now that the earth is facing a overpopulation problem, it makes the global warming problem so much worse. This report also suggests that humans and fossil fuels may have become a major player in global warming since the industrial age, but if you want something that is documented in stone you don’t have to look at that.
Reports that have been released by University scientists and the IPCC as well agree that it’s not only mankind but the natural way of things. Because there always have to be a certain amount of greenhouse gases to keep the earth in order, and you can also find that in any science book. But due to humans fascination with deforestation and due to the fact that we are 6.5 billion people and growing and much of the worlds population is regularly using fossil fuels carbon dioxide is more abundant and there deforestation takes away our hope of the carbon dioxide being turned into oxygen. As greenhouse gases stay, warm too stays and that is not good for the human populous.
Now I’m also not saying that human’s started this whole thing because it began far before we came but the fact is during the industrial revolution the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere has raised 31% and the level of methane raised by 151%. So we didn’t start it but we sure as hell are finishing it.
…..
But not to worry because there is a greater chance that mankind will mostly die off due to disease of nuclear war before we die due to global warming. :thumb: Hope that makes you all feel better.

[Iskandar]

I'll be more "eco-friendly" when being "eco-friendly" doesn't suck

Capitalism will come up with a solution for itI don't feel like getting in a ten-page treatise on the possible benefits and disadvantages of the libertarian philosophy, but I just thought I'd bring up that capitalism got us into this mess in the first place. Non-capitalist states don't have a flawless record of environment responsibility either, of course.

[TheDarkHorse]

Its generally accepted that it does, but whether humans have a role or not is up for debate.

it was "generally accepted" that the earth was flat.

[pedro durruti]

Yeah, but they were morons.

[TheDarkHorse]

Yeah, but they were morons.

actually they were the educated ones. To us (or maybe just you) they seem foolish.

And are these nuts any better? I dont need someone to tell me to use one square of toilet paper or to live in the darkness to stop a phenomenon that doesnt exist.

[pedro durruti]

What the **** are you talking about?

[eCow]

it was "generally accepted" that the earth was flat.

Uh, it exists; the earth goes through warm and cool periods. Like Anxious said, we are really just debating whether or not humans are increasing the rate at which global warming occurs.

[Smokey D]

it was "generally accepted" that the earth was flat.

That was never the case. Only the peasants thought the earth was flat, and even then it wasn't too hard to figure out it's not.

On teh other hand, any set of climate statistics will tell you the world is heating up.

[WhoDidTheElf]

That was never the case. Only the peasants thought the earth was flat, and even then it wasn't too hard to figure out it's not.

On teh other hand, any set of climate statistics will tell you the world is heating up.

Not true.

What actually happens is the climates will change to have more extreme weathers, not just "the whole world is getting hotter!."

Some places have gotten colder in the winters and hotter in the summers.

[pedro durruti]

That was never the case. Only the peasants thought the earth was flat, and even then it wasn't too hard to figure out it's not.
Certainly no one believed the world was flat as a pancake, a perfectly horizontal planet, but did scholars and whatnot know it was a sphere? I mean the moon and sun probably gave them the idea, but actually living on earth didn't give them the illusion of flatness?

[Smokey D]

Aristotle figured it out 300ish BC. Most scholars knew it was round and could calculate its diameter. Sailors also could see the curve of the horizon when at sea. It's more difficult for the uneducated inland, but it wouldn't have been impossible if you paid enough attention.


Not true.

What actually happens is the climates will change to have more extreme weathers, not just "the whole world is getting hotter!."

Some places have gotten colder in the winters and hotter in the summers.

The average global temperature has increased, but this causes extreme weather events, both hot and cold, to happen with more frequency and severity.

[VomitStainedCretin]

we as human beings breath out during respiration also contributes to greenhouse gases OK, perfect solution to global warming - everyone just stop breathing before we destroy ourselves! :lol:

[Smokey D]

Our personal contribution is obviously off-set by plantlife.

[Jharaski]

I thought religious nutjobs used the Bible to say it was flat? Something about the four corners of earth. And they were the educated ones...

[VomitStainedCretin]

Our personal contribution is obviously off-set by plantlife.Not to mention that, having suffocated ourselves, our bodies will decay, releasing more carbon dioxide.

[Der Übermensch]

I thought religious nutjobs used the Bible to say it was flat? Something about the four corners of earth. And they were the educated ones...

It more had to do with everyone would need to be able to see Christ when he returned from Heaven, thus the world must be flat.

[Volumnius Flush]

What causes global warming might I ask?

[Dr Hooch]

What causes global warming might I ask?

greenhouse gases, minute changes in the earth's orbit, increaded sun activity...

mostly the first one.

[Volumnius Flush]

Where do greenhouse gases come from?

[Der Übermensch]

From burning fossil fuels.

[Volumnius Flush]

Oh... so if we use up all the 'fossil fuels', e.g. oil, then global warming should slow down to a halt, right? The way I see it, to speed the process of slowing down global warming, we then must all drive SUVs. Right?

[Iskandar]

Not if we replace fossil fuels with an equally or more environmentally harmful substance.

[Volumnius Flush]

Not if we replace fossil fuels with an equally or more environmentally harmful substance.

There is little chance of that since even with a steady supply of remaining fossil fuels, we've already began phazing them out. And what use would they be then? Lamp oil?

[EinzingerIsGod]

Oh... so if we use up all the 'fossil fuels', e.g. oil, then global warming should slow down to a halt, right? The way I see it, to speed the process of slowing down global warming, we then must all drive SUVs. Right?

Ugh....

The sun radiates energy in short-wave form (i.e. gamma rays, x-rays, ultra-violet, and visible light). The earth then absorbs said energy and radiates it back to space (if this didn't happen we would just keep getting hotter and hotter). The problem lies in the fact that the earth radiates energy back to space through long-wave radiation and greenhouse gases do not allow long wave radiation to pass through the atmosphere. So as it will let the sun's energy in, we can't get rid of the earth's energy.

The question then lies in what causes it? The earth naturally goes through hot and cold cycles, but the increase in industrialization, especially in the past 50 years or so, has sped up the process exponentially. Some still will deny that it is human induced, but they're just denying the truth since even the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, a peer-reviewed scientific and UN sanctioned organization, has come out and said that the recent warming is caused mainly, if not entirely, by human activity.

So then the question becomes how do we stop it? The answer is simple: reduce the use of greenhouse gas and fossil fuel consumption and increase our use of renewable energies (i.e. solar energy, wind power, fuel cell and hydrogen technologies, etc.). If we stop putting it up in the atmosphere, things will balance themselves out much like the ozone will repair itself if we stop pumping aerosols up there.

So there you go.

http://www.ipcc.ch/

[Volumnius Flush]

If the cycle is exponentially increased, then shouldn't the cold cycle you state in the cyclical hot-cold climate alternate at an exponentially faster rate meaning it will get cold much quicker?

[WhoDidTheElf]

The average global temperature has increased, but this causes extreme weather events, both hot and cold, to happen with more frequency and severity.

While the average may have, there are still places that have gotten colder over the past years. I can't think of the name of the city, but it's in northern China and it has experianced some of the coldest winters and summers on record, for that part of the country at least.

Though, I'm not trying to say that the temperature hasn't gone up, I'm just saying it's not quite as easy to just go, "check any were and you can tell!"

[EinzingerIsGod]

If the cycle is exponentially increased, then shouldn't the cold cycle you state in the cyclical hot-cold climate alternate at an exponentially faster rate meaning it will get cold much quicker?

No. That makes no sense at all. The warming cycle has been exponentially increased because gases that increase warming have been added to our atmosphere. You're suggestion would be like if you had a pot full of cool water that you let sit. Normally it would rise a bit to room temperature but you put it on a stove burner. Your logic would suggest that because you were exponentially increasing the warming, when you finally let the water cool it would turn to ice. There is no logic in that whatsoever.

In the 70's there was talk about global cooling, because although we were still pumping greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, we were still pumping a lot more aerosols into the atmosphere as well which increases the atmosphere's albedo or reflectivity (basically less sunlight gets in). Now I know what you're going to say next: so why don't we just put more aerosols in the air? Why? Because their cancerous.

Please stop with the sarcastic rebuttals. You're just going to have to accept that global warming is real.

While the average may have, there are still places that have gotten colder over the past years. I can't think of the name of the city, but it's in northern China and it has experianced some of the coldest winters and summers on record, for that part of the country at least.

Though, I'm not trying to say that the temperature hasn't gone up, I'm just saying it's not quite as easy to just go, "check any were and you can tell!"

The average temperature around the world has gone up and because of this it means that the general climate is changing. So yeah, there are a few places on earth that have cooled, but that's the minority and it's only because the warming everywhere else has displaced certain climates.

[Dr Hooch]

Oh... so if we use up all the 'fossil fuels', e.g. oil, then global warming should slow down to a halt, right? The way I see it, to speed the process of slowing down global warming, we then must all drive SUVs. Right?

The faster global warming happens, the more of a schock it will be to the earth as a whole,a nd so the more natural disasters, dieing species etc. we'll have

but frankly there's no way all the fossil fuels aren't gonna be used up sooner or later and poured into the air so idk

you wait til we sciencey types get ourselves a fusion reactor working then you can all drive electric/hydrogen cars k?

[EinzingerIsGod]

but frankly there's no way all the fossil fuels aren't gonna be used up sooner or later and poured into the air so idk

But the sooner we begin to reduce the rate at which we are putting them into the atmosphere, the sooner the warming will begin to recede. Basically we have to allow the earth to recycle the gases faster than we put them up there.

[Volumnius Flush]

The question then lies in what causes it? The earth naturally goes through hot and cold cycles, but the increase in industrialization...has sped up the process exponentially.

The process, the cyclical alternation between hot and cold has sped up exponentially. In your own words. It doesn't "make sense". Your own words. Global warming does not make sense.

[BassVirtuoso]

Ugh so apparently one day in the future we will all die.

[Volumnius Flush]

Ugh so apparently one day in the future we will all die.

My daddy told me we'd live forever.

[peeted]

I wont die, i live in Yorkshire, it wont flood and the weathers getting nicer as a result of global warming :)

But any way, what can actually be done to reduce global warming, and does anyone actually think its gonna happen with countries like India contributing more and more to greenhouse gasses and America just refusing to do anything?

[lfantwister]

But any way, what can actually be done to reduce global warming, and does anyone actually think its gonna happen with countries like India contributing more and more to greenhouse gasses and America just refusing to do anything?
If anything less pressure should be put on americans from the intl community (from other americans is cool) because they should be focusing their attention on china and such

also, it's 96 at my house. You gotta love it.

[EinzingerIsGod]

The process, the cyclical alternation between hot and cold has sped up exponentially. In your own words. It doesn't "make sense". Your own words. Global warming does not make sense.

I was referring to your logic. Your logic makes absolutely no sense.

[WhoDidTheElf]

The average temperature around the world has gone up and because of this it means that the general climate is changing. So yeah, there are a few places on earth that have cooled, but that's the minority and it's only because the warming everywhere else has displaced certain climates.

I never said it wasn't I was just saying some areas would give you a different picture even though the global average has gone up.

The process, the cyclical alternation between hot and cold has sped up exponentially. In your own words. It doesn't "make sense". Your own words. Global warming does not make sense.

Ok I'm not huge on human induced global warming but I will make some corrections to you here.

Our planet goes through cooling and warming cycles. These cycles are normal. But what is happening now, during what is thought to be a warming cycle, is that the warming is occuring at a rate that is so much faster than normal. Not that the actuall cycles are occuring faster.

[gregulus]

For about a thousand years before the Industrial Revolution, the amount of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere remained relatively constant. Since then, the concentration of various greenhouse gases has increased. The amount of carbon dioxide, for example, has increased by more than 30% since pre-industrial times and is still increasing at an unprecedented rate of on average 0.4% per year, mainly due to the combustion of fossil fuels and deforestation. We know that this increase is anthropogenic because the changing isotopic composition of the atmospheric CO2 betrays the fossil origin of the increase.

[peeted]

If anything less pressure should be put on americans from the intl community (from other americans is cool) because they should be focusing their attention on china and such

also, it's 96 at my house. You gotta love it.
Why? America pollute more than any other country, China is going to be a problem but thats doesn't explain why less pressure should be put on America. And why is it ok for Americans to complain and not the rest of the international community, when you obviously think that the international community has a right to put pressure on China?

[WhoDidTheElf]

For about a thousand years before the Industrial Revolution, the amount of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere remained relatively constant. Since then, the concentration of various greenhouse gases has increased. The amount of carbon dioxide, for example, has increased by more than 30% since pre-industrial times and is still increasing at an unprecedented rate of on average 0.4% per year, mainly due to the combustion of fossil fuels and deforestation. We know that this increase is anthropogenic because the changing isotopic composition of the atmospheric CO2 betrays the fossil origin of the increase.

The bold part is complete and utter bullshit. At that rate we would all be dead. In the last 250 years it has increased from about 300PPM (or so) to about 380PPM. If it were at .4% it would be at 700 or so PPM in one year

Edit: Apon re-reading it do you mean .4% of the total or an addition .4% to the ammount of CO2 in our atmosphere?

Why? America pollute more than any other country, China is going to be a problem but thats doesn't explain why less pressure should be put on America. And why is it ok for Americans to complain and not the rest of the international community, when you obviously think that the international community has a right to put pressure on China?

While America does have the highest percent of CO2 emissions over all, Japan is pretty close behind in a per capita %.

Though I have no eveidence of this, I've heard America is one of the lowest producers of methane, which is 32X worse than CO2.

[EinzingerIsGod]

I never said it wasn't I was just saying some areas would give you a different picture even though the global average has gone up.

No I know. I was just adding my two cents because I knew Volmunius was going to try and use that as proof otherwise.

[gregulus]

The bold part is complete and utter bullshit. At that rate we would all be dead. In the last 250 years it has increased from about 300PPM (or so) to about 380PPM. If it were at .4% it would be at 700 or so PPM in one year

Edit: Apon re-reading it do you mean .4% of the total or an addition .4% to the ammount of CO2 in our atmosphere?


That's from the IPCC. What do you mean by "of the total?" That .4% is referring to the increase of CO2.

[WhoDidTheElf]

That's from the IPCC. What do you mean by "of the total?" That .4% is referring to the increase of CO2.

Oh then never mind, I thought you ment a .4% total increase in CO2 in the atmosphere.

[Jharaski]

I think what the question is, is, does the percentage from CO2 being x % to X+0.4%, or does it go from X% to (1+0.4% = 1.004X)% of the total atmosphere?

Because the former would kill us quickly. Say, 2% to 2.4% to 2.8% is a lot worse than 2% to 2.008% to 2.016032%.

[gregulus]

I think what the question is, is, does the percentage from CO2 being x % to X+0.4%, or does it go from X% to (1+0.4% = 1.004X)% of the total atmosphere?

Because the former would kill us quickly. Say, 2% to 2.4% to 2.8% is a lot worse than 2% to 2.008% to 2.016032%.

I'm not sure I follow your question...

Sorry.

[EinzingerIsGod]

He's asking if when you say the percentage of CO2 increases by .4% every year is that Current Level + .4 or Current Level x .4 .

[italic zero]

When we say the black population increases by 10% every 5 years, we aren't implying they're taking over the world.

[lfantwister]

Why? America pollute more than any other country, China is going to be a problem but thats doesn't explain why less pressure should be put on America. And why is it ok for Americans to complain and not the rest of the international community, when you obviously think that the international community has a right to put pressure on China?
The entire global warming idea is based on future emissions and future consequences. Therefore it would make sense to begin to regulate countries that will be major contributors in the near future, like China. Their industrialisation will soon greatly surpass other countries' omissions.
Speaking pragmatically, intl pressure on America is pretty pointless. See kyoto. The best way to change our stubborn asses is from the inside. I'm not necessarily opposed to international pressure I just think that at best it wont do much good, and at worst it will antagonize our already prideful nation into some terrible vacuum of obstinance

[gregulus]

Well, Bush just recently acknowledged the fact that there is a spike in global temperatures and that it's caused by fossil fuels. That's a problem...

[Jharaski]

When we say the black population increases by 10% every 5 years, we aren't implying they're taking over the world.

That doesn't really work...

The total world population can increase, but does the atmosphere's size increase? We're talking in parts per million here.

[Smokey D]

The entire global warming idea is based on future emissions and future consequences. Therefore it would make sense to begin to regulate countries that will be major contributors in the near future, like China. Their industrialisation will soon greatly surpass other countries' omissions.
Speaking pragmatically, intl pressure on America is pretty pointless. See kyoto. The best way to change our stubborn asses is from the inside. I'm not necessarily opposed to international pressure I just think that at best it wont do much good, and at worst it will antagonize our already prideful nation into some terrible vacuum of obstinance

It's based on our current activities with a mind to the future.

[spitfirejunky]

gregulus' article states that the .4% is a rate, which implies that values are successively multiplied by 1.004.

Seems accurate to me.

[VomitStainedCretin]

I wont die, i live in Yorkshire, it wont flood and the weathers getting nicer as a result of global warming :)No, the Gulf Stream will shut down and you'll be buried alive by blizzards :)

[ringworm]

a good read on why gas prices rise the next time you want to blame Bush only, its our entire political process raising the price of oil

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110008286

http://www.axcessnews.com/index.php/articles/show/id/10946

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/news_theswamp/2006/04/capitol_hill_bl.html

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

High gas prices also benefit the Third World Countries it's exported from. Without that money, places like Saudi Arabia and Nigeria would starve

[Der Übermensch]

Except the majority of the people in those nations don't see much of the oil revenue since prebendalism is rampent.

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

True, but at least some people get something, which they wind up spending on ostentatious palaces or funding bloody civil wars that last decades

[EinzingerIsGod]

If you think the general public in third world countries is seeing any sort of significant compensation from their exported oil you're highly mistaken.

[Smokey D]

High gas prices also benefit the Third World Countries it's exported from. Without that money, places like Saudi Arabia and Nigeria would starve

Or they'd have economies that didn't suffer from Dutch disease.

[Iskandar]

Or they'd have economies that didn't suffer from Dutch disease.
What on earth is Dutch disease?

[Smokey D]

When an economy focuses on one commodity to the exclusion of all others and is consequently unable to function in other economic spheres. It refers to the tulipmania that ran rampant in the Dutch Republic in the 17th century.

Edit: Actually, no it doesn't. It refers to the decline in economic variation following the discovery of natural gas resources in Holland in the 1960s. Tulip mania was something else. Damn Dutch.

Think of it this way. Arab oil producers get such a large amount of money from producing and exporting oil there is no short or medium term incentive to invest in anything else, including human capital. As such, when oil runs out or an alternative is found, they will become economic basket cases.

[Illmatic]

High gas prices also benefit the Third World Countries it's exported from. Without that money, places like Saudi Arabia and Nigeria would starve

correction: high gas prices benefit the most powerful people in developing nations.

there's a large difference.

[metalkingtiger]

I don't wanna sound repetitive with all my socialist talk but Capitalism and Corporations have the biggest blame. How many years ago did talk start about alternate sources of energy? Rich oil tycoons are holding up this research up cause it would represent huge losses for the petroleum trade but what they fail to realize is the damage they're doing to earth to fill their freaking pockets.

[Iskandar]

When an economy focuses on one commodity to the exclusion of all others and is consequently unable to function in other economic spheres. It refers to the tulipmania that ran rampant in the Dutch Republic in the 17th century.

Edit: Actually, no it doesn't. It refers to the decline in economic variation following the discovery of natural gas resources in Holland in the 1960s. Tulip mania was something else. Damn Dutch.

Think of it this way. Arab oil producers get such a large amount of money from producing and exporting oil there is no short or medium term incentive to invest in anything else, including human capital. As such, when oil runs out or an alternative is found, they will become economic basket cases.Some Arab states have begun diversifying their economics again the day when the oil runs out. They're not going far enough, though....
I don't wanna sound repetitive with all my socialist talk but Capitalism and Corporations have the biggest blame. How many years ago did talk start about alternate sources of energy? Rich oil tycoons are holding up this research up cause it would represent huge losses for the petroleum trade but what they fail to realize is the damage they're doing to earth to fill their freaking pockets.Supposedly the hallowed market will take care of everything. I don't doubt that private capital will be able produce a solution to our energy woes, but it probably won't be until we've sucked the planet bone-dry of fossil fuels. Otherwise they'd be investing more into the project right now.

[metalkingtiger]

To me it's disgusting how we have come to depend so much on the big interests and money has taken such a place where the rich can do whatever they want, and our future is depending on the greed of a few people.

[Iskandar]

To me it's disgusting how we have come to depend so much on the big interests and money has taken such a place where the rich can do whatever they want, and our future is depending on the greed of a few people.Of course. It's always been like that.

[Smokey D]

Some Arab states have begun diversifying their economics again the day when the oil runs out. They're not going far enough, though....

UAE and Bahrain are doing well, but most others have barely even started.


To me it's disgusting how we have come to depend so much on the big interests and money has taken such a place where the rich can do whatever they want, and our future is depending on the greed of a few people.

Oil companies aren't holding back research so much as refusing to engage in it themselves.

[metalkingtiger]

and in the process they're ****ing us over.

[Smokey D]

Yeah, but it's not all their fault.

[metalkingtiger]

don't nobody get me started on capitalism cause I won't finish.

[Iskandar]

don't nobody get me started on capitalism cause I won't finish.I recall several threads (usually instigated by some anarchist or other) that were endless debates about capitalism. I don't want to relive those days.

[Smokey D]

don't nobody get me started on capitalism cause I won't finish.

But it's not all capitalism's fault either. There's lots of reasons global warming is happening, and it's not just that we don't have an alternative.

[metalkingtiger]

I would have fit well there cause me and capitalsim don't mix.

[Smokey D]

People who hate capitalism often don't understand it and/or equate its negative aspects with the whole thing.

Capitalism is a product not an agent, so I think 'hating capitalism' is a bit silly anyway.

[Iskandar]

People who hate capitalism often don't understand it and/or equate its negative aspects with the whole thing.

Capitalism is a product not an agent, so I think 'hating capitalism' is a bit silly anyway.It's not silly at all to find capitalism not to your liking, oppose it and desire to have it replaced with a new form of social arrangement.

[Smokey D]

Yeah, but it's the consequence of forces, not a force in itself. Hate the things that produce capitalism, not a system.

[Iskandar]

Yeah, but it's the consequence of forces, not a force in itself. Hate the things that produce capitalism, not a system.I don't know. At the risk of sounding like a demagogue, I hate private property.

[Smokey D]

Yeah, but private property produces capitalism. It isn't capitalism in itself.

[griftadan]

it really is the defining feature though, i don't see why the distinction matters

[Smokey D]

Private property existed in great abundance before capitalism, probably even less equally distributed. See feudalism and landed aristocracies.

The defining feature of capitalism is industrial and financial capital being private property.

[griftadan]

ok, well that's the main point of contention (and really what people are talking about when talking about capitalism today and property rights) so i don't see how saying "i hate property rights" effectively doesn't mean "i hate capitalism".

[Smokey D]

Well, first of all it'd mean you'd hate every economic model that includes private property, which isn't just capitalism.

Secondly, capitalism is the end result of various processes, laws and behaviors. It's not any single thing and doesn't control the world like a sinister entity. People do, and people can be bastards with or without private property.

[griftadan]

well really the only other economic systems are varying degrees of mixed or national economies untill state socialism is achieved (no property rights), so i guess if someone hate property rights without comprimise than really i suppose i'd accept your first contention.

the processes and behaviors are really driven by private property rights, and i'm not sure if by laws you are referring to property law (in which case i woudl agree) or other market distorting policy (in which case i would consider that seperate).

[griftadan]

and i would say that people being asshoels is kind of a seperate issue, because as you said it happens regardless.

[Smokey D]

the processes and behaviors are really driven by private property rights, and i'm not sure if by laws you are referring to property law (in which case i woudl agree) or other market distorting policy (in which case i would consider that seperate).

I'd say there is a reinforcing effect, though I'm not confident about saying which came first.

and i would say that people being asshoels is kind of a seperate issue, because as you said it happens regardless.

Perhaps people being arseholes is what we should be concerned about.

[griftadan]

I'd say there is a reinforcing effect, though I'm not confident about saying which came first.

yeah i don't realle ven know how i'd argue that one

Perhaps people being arseholes is what we should be concerned about.

agreed 100%

[metalkingtiger]

the point with capitalism is that it MAY be a good idea, but when you have a system where a large corporation can come and take down your corner Ma & Pa shop that a family has been building up for years and the government actually approves of it, something is really wrong.

[Danish]

ok, well that's the main point of contention (and really what people are talking about when talking about capitalism today and property rights) so i don't see how saying "i hate property rights" effectively doesn't mean "i hate capitalism".

But really there is no such thing as property rights. Only people can have rights; property rights really means rights for property owners. And that's the problem. In liberal capitalist states, certain people (property owners) have legal rights that the unpropertied don't have, largely built in to the common law. A clear example of this is the disparity in rights and power between working-class organizations (labour unions) and capital-owners organizations (corporations). Corporations were granted all of the legal rights of a person in the 1890s; labour unions still don't have all of those rights.

Capitalism, as an economic system, depends on this disparity. Otherwise, there is no legal basis, in a state that constitutionally guarantees human rights, for private employment or even for private ownership. Without the state to impliment inequality, the system would be overturned in fairly short order.

So to hate property rights really is to hate capitalism. Even before capitalism as such was really established, people fought against (and theorized against) private ownership.

[gregulus]

the point with capitalism is that it MAY be a good idea, but when you have a system where a large corporation can come and take down your corner Ma & Pa shop that a family has been building up for years and the government actually approves of it, something is really wrong.
the point with communism is that it MAY be a good idea, but when you have a system where the government can control all means of production, something is really wrong.

[Iskandar]

the point with communism is that it MAY be a good idea, but when you have a system where the government can control all means of production, something is really wrong.That would be a form of socialism, not communism.

[Jharaski]

the point with capitalism is that it MAY be a good idea, but when you have a system where a large corporation can come and take down your corner Ma & Pa shop that a family has been building up for years and the government actually approves of it, something is really wrong.

It's just competition. If the corner store can't compete, they fall behind. It'd be REALLY wrong to keep that corporation out. They can offer better prices (which is why the mom and pa store would go out of business), which really helps everyone. Mom and pa can find jobs. And while they're at it, they can get cheap goods!

[Volumnius Flush]

I was referring to your logic. Your logic makes absolutely no sense.

I was referring to your own words. Notice how your own language supports my point, thus disproving your theory on global warming.

Our planet goes through cooling and warming cycles. These cycles are normal. But what is happening now, during what is thought to be a warming cycle, is that the warming is occuring at a rate that is so much faster than normal. Not that the actuall cycles are occuring faster.

Yes. But the point is he claims the cyclical alternation has "sped up the process".

Seriously. How can so many people have such a poor comprehension of word and sentence structure?

[Knifeboy]

You didn't disprove his theory on global warming, you only proved that he had bad sentence structure, gg


What he really meant, should be clear, unless you're an idiot

Edit: lol, ohno he neg repped me for this post, I lost 5 points!

[Trivium]

Global warming is still a theory. Fact of the matter is the world is getting warmer and its a problem. Whether human pollution is causing it doesnt really matter. Just 10,000 years ago we were in an ice age, why couldnt we be going through a warm age now?

Though cutting back greenhouse gas emitions is good for many reasons, lack of dependancy on oil for one, should be a priority, the ice caps wont stop melting and the worlds climates wont stop getting warmer.

[EinzingerIsGod]

Though cutting back greenhouse gas emitions is good for many reasons, lack of dependancy on oil for one, should be a priority, the ice caps wont stop melting and the worlds climates wont stop getting warmer.

Except they probably will. There is insurmountable evidence to support the idea that human activity is the primary cause of this most recent increase in global temperatures. Chances are if we were to stop greenhouse gas emissions right away we still wouldn't see "normalcy" for decades if not passed our lifetimes.

But unlike the baby boomer generation which has left us with so much **** to take care of, I'd like to leave this place in better shape for my kids.

[Smokey D]

Actually, there's not. There's insurmountable amounts of evidence to suggest human activity occured at the same time as global warming, and the price of second guessing this is too high if it turns out to be right.

But there are probably other factors working in conjunction with human activity to cause the unprecedented speed and extent of climate change.

[EinzingerIsGod]

http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/recentcc.html

Just something else for the nay sayers.