Hip hop, materialism, & misogyny: where do we go from here?

[Amit]

I'm torn on this issue because I regularly see the effects of the attitudes espoused in the lyrics of the overwhelming majority of mainstream hip hop in the inner city but I love the music of G-funk and the new Southern hip hop artists. Some of my favourite tracks feature Dr. Dre, Nate Dogg, T.I., The Game, Young Jeezy, Snoop Dogg, and Warren G :):(

To conflate the issue even further, the demographic who actually buys the majority of hip hop is white, young, and living in middle to upper class suburbs.

Internally, for me, there isn't a contradiction between my beliefs for equality, especially for women, and the objectification of women in much of the mainstream hip hop I listen to, but when I'm asked to explain my reconciliation, I'm at a loss of words. Same goes for the glorification of violence and materialism found in these tunes.

I suppose it's because I don't care what the lyrics are about and that I focus my listening to the production and music behind the lyrics and even the rhythmic and melodic qualities of the vocals. Unlike many "musicians" and "composers," I feel like there is so much to take away and be inspired by in the production and delivery of hip hop. But I recognize that I am in a very small minority of the people who listen to mainstream hip hop.

At the same time, I can't stand the pretentiousness, lack of general melodicity, and the production of independent hip hop, even though the lyrics offer far greater thematic balance and lyrical complexity.

For a summary:

1) The lyrical themes of hip hop reflects and reports on the culture from which hip hop comes from (Chuck D. said it best when he called hip hop the "black people's CNN")
2) Since the overwhelming success of Dr. Dre's The Chronic and g-funk albums in general, the major record labels, who exercise supreme control over the production and distribution of music aimed for mass(ive) consumption in America and around the world, have decided this is what the people want
3) It's been over fifteen years since The Chronic and the lyrical content of mainstream hip hop hasn't progressed much beyond the negative aspects of the inner city and in life
4) While these negative aspects are very important to report on, there needs to be more thematic balance (otherwise it will become, as Chuck D. continues from the aforementioned quote, "the black people's Cartoon Network")
5) Actually, I feel that it has already become Cartoon Network; the point for change should have been over 5 years ago
6) The people who buy the albums, and continue influencing the decisions and directions of the major labels are the ones who will not be affected (or the least affected) by the effects of the labels' decisions to continue pushing music that glorifies violence, materialism, and misogyny into the inner city; I suppose this is the greatest and saddest irony of all
7) Hip hop is obviously not the root of all these evils, but the contemporary manifestation of mainstream hip hop, easily the most heard and salient style of modern music in America's cities, clearly reinforces the problems it was originally supposed to eradicate through the avenues of artistic expression

So? :-\

[Give me Beer]

Well, I can only say you should listen to more "foreign" hip hop ;). Mainstream Hip Hop 'round here is something else completely:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDzDjohk1Ms (Watch a little further than the first 10 seconds, it's critism on American mainstream Hip Hop)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me7kPr8HdJw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWusuSwsyyU

Only problem might be that you only speak English (I linked some French Hip Hop but really, in a lot of languages there's really good conscious Hip Hop, in Africa for example, tons of groups) ...

The only other thing I can tell you is that usually the mainstream does not represent the best artists and that you have to dig to get to the good stuff, it's true for any genre. If you want something entirely different as far as American Hip Hop is concerned, check out say, Company Flow.

[peeted]

French hip-hop is ace.

The lyrics of a lot of hip-hop are pretty silly but thats not a reflection on the genre as a whole, I personaly listen to a hall of a lot of hip-hop and only a minority of that is about materialism and misogyny. You just have to look past the mainstream.

[Smokey D]

I think his point is more given that is the mainstream, how should we respond.

Or maybe that we should look at the reasons it is the mainstream.

[peeted]

Why do we need to respond to it? its not like greed, misogyny and violence are a result of hip-hop lyrics, in fact its quite the opposite.

[Geography]

why does it matter

[beso negro]

The only other thing I can tell you is that usually the mainstream does not represent the best artists and that you have to dig to get to the good stuff, it's true for any genre. If you want something entirely different as far as American Hip Hop is concerned, check out say, Company Flow.

He understands that. But indie rap is boring.

You can't say all southern rap is shows no appreciation for woman. "Dreamin" by Young Jeezy for example. But rap isn't going to go anywhere anytime soon. I mean, rock artist have been making a living with drug innuendo for years.

[Smokey D]

Why do we need to respond to it? its not like greed, misogyny and violence are a result of hip-hop lyrics, in fact its quite the opposite.

It's more likely there's a cycle involved.

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

If it's what the music-buying populace wants to buy, who are we to tell hip-hop artists not to make it?

[PerpetualBurn]

How do you miss the point by such a wide margin?

If misogyny is what the lowest common denominator wants, that doesn't mean there's no discussion to be had.

[ringworm]

Did anyone see R Simmons apologize to Bill ORiely? Classic

[shaqadelic]

One of the attraction of hip hop is the portrayal of the materialism and - to a small extent - misogynism lifestyle. It creates a form of escapism for white americans who want to enjoy an edgier lifestyle and for black kids in poor areas to dream of a better life.

[Jharaski]

Well you can also always ask anyone who asks you, in response, if they listen to hair metal. That stuff can be just as bad when it comes to objectifying women. Another plus is you get to laugh at their inferior taste in music.

To be serious, it's really sad that this is how things go.

Hip hop and rap spread like wildfire. More and more people began to listen to it. Younger children in those inner city areas grow up completely surrounded by these popular artists now. So they listen to it too, and the next "generation" (I'm really only talking about say, young children, older children, young teens, almost teens, and so forth) grows up with it too. This is now the music they identify themselves with.

I believe that there must be anger within poor, inner city people's hearts. This can be relieved by the objectification of women (to feel better about themselves?) and materialism - possibly hopes for what they strive for, so they will not have to deal with the pain of being poor? And drugs, well those are an escape, so of course they will be in music.

I could be talking out of my bum here, and I'm not a psychologist, but it seems like sound reasoning to me, at least to explain things to a degree.

Why did it happen this way though? Why, initially, did artists switch to a far less constructive array of topics? I don't know.


One of the attraction of hip hop is the portrayal of the materialism and - to a small extent - misogynism lifestyle. It creates a form of escapism for white americans who want to enjoy an edgier lifestyle and for black kids in poor areas to dream of a better life.


And this, about white people.

[shaqadelic]

Kids in poor areas are exposed to women who the hip hop stereotype applies to; if you are exposed to prostitutes and strippers daily, you will less likely object to their objectification in songs.

[TheDarkHorse]

did you just happen to read Democracy Matters by West?

The one thing that got me was the fact that rap is selling in White middle-class areas. I would say that its only a joke when some teens get influenced by the materialistic culture, but when we actually go out and buy grills for our teeth, I think we can say we've been influenced.

[Hababi]

Mainstream rap is for idiots and people who aren't looking for any substance in lyrical or melodic quality.

This is why I'm Hot [2x]
This is why [2x] Uh
This is why I'm Hot (Uh)
This is why I'm Hot [2x] Whoo
This is why [2x]
This is why I'm Hot

I'm hot cause I'm fly (fly)
You ain't cause you're not (Mims)
This is why [2x]
This is why I'm hot [2x]

[Verse 1:]
This is why I'm hot
I don't gotta rap
I can sell a mill saying nothing on the track
I represent New York
I got it on ma back
Niggas say that we lost it
So I'ma bring it back
I love the Dirty, Dirty
Cause niggas show me love
The ladies start to bounce
As soon as I hit the club
But in the Midwest
They love to take it slow
So when I hit the H
I watch you get it on the floor
And if you needed it hyphy
I take it to the Bay
Frisco to Sac-town
They do it everyday
Compton to Hollywood
As soon as I hit L.A.
I'm in that Low, Low
I do it the Cali way
And when I hit Chi
People say that I'm fly
They like the way I dress they like
(They like my) my attire move crowds from side to side
They ask me how I do it and simply I reply...

[Chorus:]

[Verse 2:]
This is why I'm hot
Catch me on the block
Every other day
Another bitch another drop
16 bars, 24 pop
44 songs, nigga gimme what you got
I'm in there driving cars
Push 'em off the lot
I'm into shutting stores down so i can shop
If you need a bird I can get it chopped
Tell me what you need you know i get 'em by the flock
I call ma homie black meet on the ave
I hit Wash Heights with the money in the bag
We into big spinners
See my pimping never dragged
Find me wit different women that you niggas never had
For those who say they know me know I'm focused on ma cream
player you come between you'd better focus on the beam
I keep it so mean the way you see me lean
And when say I'm hot my nigga dis is what I mean

[Chorus:]

[Verse 3:]
This is why I'm hot
Shorty see the drop
Ask me what I paid and I say yea I paid a quap
And den I hit the switch that take away the top
So chicks 'round the way they call me cream of the crop
They hop in the car
I tell 'em "all aboard"
We hit the studio they say they like how I record
I gave you black train and I did you wrong
So everytime I see 'em man they tell me that's their song
They say I'm the bomb
They love the way the charm hanging from the neck
And compliments the arm which compliments the ear den comes the gear
So when I hit the room the shorties stop and stare
Den niggas start to hate rearrange their face
Little do they know I keep 'em things by waistside
I reply nobody gotta die
Similar to Lil wizzy cause I got that fire



If misogyny is what the lowest common denominator wants, that doesn't mean there's no discussion to be had.


Yep. I don't see how artists and record label executives are devoid of social responsibility. They peddle filth to imbeciles and promote a harmful subculture.

[Apocalyptic Raids]

I think you'd like Lupe Fiasco, Amit, if you haven't heard him already. Production-wise it's more mainstream but the lyrics aren't. In fact, I think he touches on this subject on one of his songs.

But I'm sure you didn't make this thread to only get a bunch of recommendations :) so anyway.

I'm kind of in the same boat as you are, the majority of the Hip Hop I listen to is on the more mainstream side of things. It would be easy for me to say "oh I just listen to it for the beats" but it's impossible to ignore the lyrics. I think shaqadelic raised a good point about the escapism of it all.

[Krabsworth]

Mainstream rap is for idiots and people who aren't looking for any substance in lyrical or melodic quality.



That is a ridiculous generalization. Some songs do have pretty **** lyrics, like that Mims song you just posted, but Mims is a fag anyway. Since when have mainstream popular songs had immensely deep content anyway? Oh yeah I forgot the 60's....such great deep songs such as "Surfin' Bird" and that rare Beatles track, "Why Don't We Do it in the Road."

Get over yourself.

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

How do you miss the point by such a wide margin?

If misogyny is what the lowest common denominator wants, that doesn't mean there's no discussion to be had.

Then blame the lowest common denominator for wanting it, not the artists for giving them what they're asking for

Then again, who are we to tell somebody what they shouldn't listen to?

[Krabsworth]

I think the Hank Williams misogynistic hit "Hey Good Lookin' " is the first true song like that.

Lyrics.

Hey, hey, good lookin',
Whatcha got cookin'?
How's about cookin' somethin' up with me?
Hey, sweet baby,
Don't you think maybe
We could find us a brand new recipe?
I got a hot-rod Ford and a two-dollar bill
And I know a spot right over the hill.
There's soda pop and the dancin's free,
So if you wanna have fun come along with me.
Hey, good lookin',
Whatcha got cookin'?
How's about cookin' somethin' up with me?

I'm free and ready,
So we can go steady.
How's about savin' all your time for me?
No more lookin',
I know I've been tooken [sic].
How's about keepin' steady company?

I'm gonna throw my date-book over the fence
And find me one for five or ten cents.
I'll keep it 'til it's covered with age
'Cause I'm writin' your name down on every page.
Hey, good lookin',
Whatcha got cookin'?
How's about cookin' somethin' up with me?


In this song he assumes the woman is gonna slave over a hot stove to cook for him, that the woman is gonna go "have fun" with him, and is gonna save all her time for him.

Then again, he was probably referring to a man.

[Geography]

zero what rap do you listen to

[Hababi]

That is a ridiculous generalization. Some songs do have pretty **** lyrics, like that Mims song you just posted, but Mims is a fag anyway. Since when have mainstream popular songs had immensely deep content anyway? Oh yeah I forgot the 60's....such great deep songs such as "Surfin' Bird" and that rare Beatles track, "Why Don't We Do it in the Road."

Get over yourself.

You forgot the "or melodic quality" part. Most Beach Boys lyrics are dreadful, but their harmonies are incredible.


zero what rap do you listen to


I've heard a few good artists through my launchcast...but I don't remember them :(

[Krabsworth]

He doesn't he has more intelligent music to listen to.

[Hababi]

He doesn't he has more intelligent music to listen to.

Rap can be quite intelligent. It's just that mainstream rap tends to be anything but :\

[Yield]

That is a ridiculous generalization. Some songs do have pretty **** lyrics, like that Mims song you just posted, but Mims is a fag anyway. Since when have mainstream popular songs had immensely deep content anyway? Oh yeah I forgot the 60's....such great deep songs such as "Surfin' Bird" and that rare Beatles track, "Why Don't We Do it in the Road."

Get over yourself.

Disco Duck ftw

Anyways, Lupe Fiasco and Kanye West are both more mainstream production-wise, but the lyrics and the melodies actually have something to them, which I like.

The problem that I have with mainstream rap is that nearly every week there is a new "hit" put out basically so the record companies can make as much money as possible. Last week all the kids were walking around yelling "This is why I'm hot" and this week the everyone's yelling "Party like a rockstar" and it will be something else different.

[Geography]

lol

[A Spoonful Supreme]

Here's admittedly faulty hypothesis es by yours truly:

-Above average permissiveness towards black undertakings has helped them to appeal to whites using strong misogyny and language.

-Rock N' Roll was the seller back in the day because it was riske, but in actuality everyone bought into it and what was and is seen as a rebellious musical undertaking is a contrived mass-produced pseudo-rebellious undertaking that appeased the masses and appealed to the status-quo. It is now rap's turn to do the same.

[sexymuffin]

Hip Hop is an enigmatic musical genre in that more than any style of music before it, it can be used as a way of understanding a large part of society that most of its listeners (crackers) are completely oblivious to. The majority of hip hop artists producing music today really did come from a hard life in a dangerous city and they found music as a way to get themselves out of all that.

As far as lyrics centralized around misogyny, bling bling and violence, it's important to note that the majority of popular hip hop artists are young and not really conscious of the effects their music can have. You can't really blame them though, they grew up in a place where it's completely reasonable to get shot just walking down the street minding your own bussiness. They've seen some of the lowest living standards america has to offer and so when they finally get out of all that, they're proud of what they've accumulated; wealth, influence, and power over the women that never used to pay them any mind (see: mike jones).

There's also a large amount of social pressure for these artists to stay 'hard' and true to the streets when they get out, so the violent lyrics and 'beefs' is how they prove to everyone listening back home that they didn't sell out because they got a record deal; they're still gangsters and they'll still **** your **** up.

Because of all these elements, it is rare to find a hip hop artist who can be fun and understands what allures most people to hip hop (the edginess and mindless materialism) but at the same time can offer social commentary on where he's from and the world around him.

This is why pharoahe monch is one of the best hip hop artists around. His song "The Truth" not only has a sick beat and great production, but profound lyrics that have become unnecessary and, to a point, unwanted in mainstream hip hop. I'd suggest giving it a listen if you haven't already, i might upload it if there is a demand for it.

[TheDarkHorse]

Mainstream rap is for idiots and people who aren't looking for any substance in lyrical or melodic quality.


whatever you say can be for any mainstream music.

and even then, it wont be true for ALL mainstream music and artists.
You forgot the "or melodic quality" part. Most Beach Boys lyrics are dreadful, but their harmonies are incredible.
and the majority of mainstream rap songs have excellent beats seeing how they're produced by the best in the business.

it surprises me how full of ignorance you are. Maybe one day you'll discover 20 year old rap(public enemy, africa bambaataa, a tribe called quest) and see how foolish your generalizations are. Maybe you'll even be lucky enough to hear some good contemporary artists(common, mos def, the list keeps on)

[gregulus]

Mainstream rap sells because of the way it's presented. There's plenty of hip hop out there that talks about inner-city life in a more artistic way, that doesn't promote misogyny, that doesn't promote materialism, etc. If people wanted to hear that, it would sell. Mainstream rap is popular because it's catchy and it's fun to dance to, and it's well produced. If you were at a party and "Slob On My Knob" came on, I garuntee you that girls would be enjoying themselves just as much as guys. The only people that seem to really care about the message are old people, talking heads on TV, and Al Sharpton.

[Hababi]

whatever you say can be for any mainstream music.


Not to the same degree (and I'm no fan of most mainstream rock). Want to prove me wrong? Post the lyrics to the top 10 rock songs, then post the lyrics to the top 10 rap songs. You'll prove me right.

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

This is why pharoahe monch is one of the best hip hop artists around. His song "The Truth" not only has a sick beat and great production, but profound lyrics that have become unnecessary and, to a point, unwanted in mainstream hip hop. I'd suggest giving it a listen if you haven't already, i might upload it if there is a demand for it.

Then again, he has that song "Simon Says" where he tells girls to rub on their titties 6 times


I don't see any problem with the content of rap music. I doubt it has led to an increase in misogyny, and, if it has, that's the fault of the listeners, not the rappers

[CarnageFairy]

The problem that I have with mainstream rap is that nearly every week there is a new "hit" put out basically so the record companies can make as much money as possible. Last week all the kids were walking around yelling "This is why I'm hot" and this week the everyone's yelling "Party like a rockstar" and it will be something else different.

This is hardly exclusive to hip-hop.


My take on it?

I listen to a lot of artists like Biggie, Wu-Tang, your typical misogynistic gang-banging type gansta rap. I love the lyrics, not really for what they're about, but for the linguistic abilities.

The lyrical content is generally the last thing I notice about any song I listen to, for me for many rap songs it's more about the flow than the lyrics.

Can I relate to songs about living in the ghetto and selling crack? **** no, but I know good music when I hear it.

[TheDarkHorse]

Not to the same degree (and I'm no fan of most mainstream rock). Want to prove me wrong? Post the lyrics to the top 10 rock songs, then post the lyrics to the top 10 rap songs. You'll prove me right.

rock is no where near as popular as rap is right now. However, if it was late 80s or early 90's rock in roll, then thats a fair comparison. Now wasnt it "rock music" which originally glorified sex, drugs, and degrading women?
Before you answer no, rock music is the reason why we have "parental advisory" stickers on our cd labels. Any top 10 lyrics i post from that time will be identical to the terrible mainstream rap of today.

[Hababi]

rock is no where near as popular as rap is right now. However, if it was late 80s or early 90's rock in roll, then thats a fair comparison. Now wasnt it "rock music" which originally glorified sex, drugs, and degrading women?

Absolutely :p

I hate stupid misogynism in stupid 80's rock music as much as I hate it in contemporary rap music. But you're talking about the past and we're talking about the present.

Any top 10 lyrics i post from that time will be identical to the terrible mainstream rap of today.

Ok do it.

[Amit]

Not to the same degree (and I'm no fan of most mainstream rock). Want to prove me wrong? Post the lyrics to the top 10 rock songs, then post the lyrics to the top 10 rap songs. You'll prove me right.

yes because lyrics are the only thing that make up the music :rolleyes:

zero, you're just as idiotic towards hip hop as the people you lambast

[ATM]

Chance said a few things that I wanted to say.

As far as mainstream rappers go, record companies hold on to whatever stupid trend is currently selling and will squeeze every last dollar they can get out of it.

Hence the barrage of crap music that seems to be everywhere. Don't get me started on those "snap" songs.

[Amit]

You forgot the "or melodic quality" part. Most Beach Boys lyrics are dreadful, but their harmonies are incredible.

melodic quality =/= harmony you twit

and a lot of mainstream hip hop music has incredible harmonies and melodies; you're just too closeminded to hear them :-(

hell that's the only kind of hip hop i listen to

[Hababi]

yes because lyrics are the only thing that make up the music :rolleyes:


Lyrics send the message. The last time I checked, a beat doesn't express misogyny. I donnu maybe you can link to something that does but yeah no :smash:



and a lot of mainstream hip hop music has incredible harmonies and melodies; you're just too closeminded to hear them :-(


Not the stuff that gets played on the radio 'round here.

[Amit]

Lyrics send the message. The last time I checked, a beat doesn't express misogyny. I donnu maybe you can link to something that does but yeah no :smash:

if you read the original post (which i know you didn't) you'd know that i don't listen to hip hop (or any kind of music really) for the lyrics

Not the stuff that gets played on the radio 'round here.

well that's not my fault you have **** radio stations

i don't listen to the radio anyway :D

[Hababi]

if you read the original post (which i know you didn't) you'd know that i don't listen to hip hop (or any kind of music really) for the lyrics


Yeah that's kinda why I said it's for idiots and people who don't care about lyrics. Yeah that kinda includes you for both but still :\ Try reading something other than a music or biology textbook sometime. You know, like actual literature.

Not this:

A 2 Step
A 2 Step
Now Gone An 2 Step [X4]
Now Get Jiggy With It [X4]
Now Gone An 2 Step
Aye Watch Me 2 Step
Now Can You 2 Step
Like I 2 Step
Watch Me Get Jiggy With It [X4]
Gone 2 Step

[Verse 1:]
I Hit The Club Fresh
My Stunner Shades On
2 Stepping Getting Jiggy
With My J's On
Don't Get Your Steps Wrong
Don't Try To Bite Mine
2 Stepping Yea I'm Back
Unk One More Time
See We Going Form A Line
And We Going Step It Right
Now Step It To The Left
Girl You Know You Dynamite
Now Have Some Good Times
I See You Got It Right
Beat My Wrist Ice
Colder Than A Bud Light
Now I'mma Take My Time
Where The Gangsters At
And You Can Still Post The Wall Nigga Holla Back
Grey Goose And Yak
Blunt Filled With Kush
I'm Getting Jiggy With It
Smoking On That George Bush
Step

[Chorus:]
4... 3... 2... 2...

A 2 Step
A 2 Step
Now Gone An 2 Step [X4]
Now Get Jiggy With It [X4]
Now Gone An 2 Step
Aye Watch Me 2 Step
Now Can You 2 Step
Like I 2 Step
Watch Me Get Jiggy With It [X4]
Gone 2 Step

[Verse 2:]
Take 2 Steps To The Left
Now Take 2 Steps To The Right
Now Bring It Back
Bring It Back
Hey I Made Ya'll Walk It Out
Everybody 2 Stepping
Now We Finna Turn It Out
Now Here We Go Again
You Already Slow
If You Ain't 2 Stepping
Get Your **** And Hit The Do'
I'm Shooting At Your Toes
Like A Western
I See You Baby Girl
Sweating Out Your Lil Perm
They Call Me Big Worm
Where My Money At
2 Stepping With My Stacks
Bitch Holla Back
The Oc Is Back
Ya'll Besta Deal With It
And Don't Be Stepping On My Shoes
When I Get Jiggy With It

[Chorus]

A 2 Step
A 2 Step
Now Gone An 2 Step [X4]
Now Get Jiggy With It [X4]
Now Gone An 2 Step
Aye Watch Me 2 Step
Now Can You 2 Step
Like I 2 Step
Watch Me Get Jiggy With It [X4]
Gone 2 Step

A 2 Step... [X8]


well that's not my fault you have **** radio stations

i don't listen to the radio anyway :D

Well I'll just keep posting lyrics of the current top songs to prove my point, and you can keep on making broad, generalizing statements.

[Amit]

Yeah that's kinda why I said it's for idiots and people who don't care about lyrics. Yeah that kinda includes you for both but still :\ Try reading something other than a music or biology textbook sometime. You know, like actual literature.

i read plenty of literature but the issue of what books i read is completely irrelevant to this thread; you're completely missing the point :-\

Not this:

A 2 Step
A 2 Step
Now Gone An 2 Step [X4]
Now Get Jiggy With It [X4]
Now Gone An 2 Step
Aye Watch Me 2 Step
Now Can You 2 Step
Like I 2 Step
Watch Me Get Jiggy With It [X4]
Gone 2 Step

[Verse 1:]
I Hit The Club Fresh
My Stunner Shades On
2 Stepping Getting Jiggy
With My J's On
Don't Get Your Steps Wrong
Don't Try To Bite Mine
2 Stepping Yea I'm Back
Unk One More Time
See We Going Form A Line
And We Going Step It Right
Now Step It To The Left
Girl You Know You Dynamite
Now Have Some Good Times
I See You Got It Right
Beat My Wrist Ice
Colder Than A Bud Light
Now I'mma Take My Time
Where The Gangsters At
And You Can Still Post The Wall Nigga Holla Back
Grey Goose And Yak
Blunt Filled With Kush
I'm Getting Jiggy With It
Smoking On That George Bush
Step

[Chorus:]
4... 3... 2... 2...

A 2 Step
A 2 Step
Now Gone An 2 Step [X4]
Now Get Jiggy With It [X4]
Now Gone An 2 Step
Aye Watch Me 2 Step
Now Can You 2 Step
Like I 2 Step
Watch Me Get Jiggy With It [X4]
Gone 2 Step

[Verse 2:]
Take 2 Steps To The Left
Now Take 2 Steps To The Right
Now Bring It Back
Bring It Back
Hey I Made Ya'll Walk It Out
Everybody 2 Stepping
Now We Finna Turn It Out
Now Here We Go Again
You Already Slow
If You Ain't 2 Stepping
Get Your **** And Hit The Do'
I'm Shooting At Your Toes
Like A Western
I See You Baby Girl
Sweating Out Your Lil Perm
They Call Me Big Worm
Where My Money At
2 Stepping With My Stacks
Bitch Holla Back
The Oc Is Back
Ya'll Besta Deal With It
And Don't Be Stepping On My Shoes
When I Get Jiggy With It

[Chorus]

A 2 Step
A 2 Step
Now Gone An 2 Step [X4]
Now Get Jiggy With It [X4]
Now Gone An 2 Step
Aye Watch Me 2 Step
Now Can You 2 Step
Like I 2 Step
Watch Me Get Jiggy With It [X4]
Gone 2 Step

A 2 Step... [X8]



Well I'll just keep posting lyrics of the current top songs to prove my point, and you can keep on making broad, generalizing statements.

umm i'm not sure why you think i'm saying current top songs don't encourage misogyny and materialism (especially since it's in the thread title)

DID YOU READ THE ORIGINAL POST because right now you're trying to argue with someone who doesn't disagree with you...?

[Hababi]

i read plenty of literature but the issue of what books i read is completely irrelevant to this thread; you're completely missing the point :-\

So then...what is the point?



DID YOU READ THE ORIGINAL POST because right now you're trying to argue with someone who doesn't disagree with you...?

You're the one arguing with me:amaze:

[Amit]

So then...what is the point?

the point is to discuss the stagnancy of mainstream hip hop and what can be done about it

but don't worry about it; it clearly doesn't concern you

you're just here to throw an irrelevant tantrum

You're the one arguing with me:amaze:

i'm disagreeing with you about the "melodic quality" of mainstream hip hop; but you think i am disagreeing about lyrics

[Amit]

hey steve what do you think about this song

http://www.sendspace.com/file/qva6rt

[Krabsworth]

Not to the same degree (and I'm no fan of most mainstream rock). Want to prove me wrong? Post the lyrics to the top 10 rock songs, then post the lyrics to the top 10 rap songs. You'll prove me right.

Top rock song right now:

Girlfriend - Avril Lavigne

Hey! Hey! You! You!
I don’t like your girlfriend!
No way! No way!
I think you need a new one
Hey! Hey! You! You!
I could be your girlfriend

Hey! Hey! You! You!
I know that you like me
No way! No way!
No it’s not a secret
Hey! Hey! You! You!
I want to be your girlfriend

[Verse 1]
You’re so fine
I want you mine
You’re so delicious
I think about ya all the time
You’re so addictive
Don’t you know what I could do to make you feel alright?
Don’t pretend I think you know I’m damn precious
And Hell Yeah
I’m the mother****ing princess
I can tell you like me too and you know I’m right

[Bridge]
She’s like so whatever
You could do so much better
I think we should get together now
And that’s what everyone’s talking about!

[Chorus]
Hey! Hey! You! You!
I don’t like your girlfriend!
No way! No way!
I think you need a new one
Hey! Hey! You! You!
I could be your girlfriend

Hey! Hey! You! You!
I know that you like me
No way! No way!
No it’s not a secret
Hey! Hey! You! You!
I want to be your girlfriend

[Verse 2]
I can see the way, I see the way you look at me
And even when you look away I know you think of me
I know you talk about me all the time again and again
So come over here, tell me what I want to hear
Better yet make your girlfriend disappear
I don’t want to hear you say her name ever again
(And again and again and again!)

[Bridge]
She’s like so whatever
You could do so much better
I think we should get together now
And that’s what everyone’s talking about!

[Chorus]
Hey! Hey! You! You!
I don’t like your girlfriend!
No way! No way!
I think you need a new one
Hey! Hey! You! You!
I could be your girlfriend

Hey! Hey! You! You!
I know that you like me
No way! No way!
No it’s not a secret
Hey! Hey! You! You!
I want to be your girlfriend

In a second you’ll be wrapped around my finger
Cause I can, cause I can do it better
There’s no other
So when's it gonna sink in?
She’s so stupid
What the hell were you thinking?!

pretty slutty to me

[Dave de Sylvia]

Um it's ironic.

[gregulus]

hey steve what do you think about this song

http://www.sendspace.com/file/qva6rt

Bone Thugs have always been an extremely talented band. Anyone who denies this fact is a moron.

[Jharaski]

Avril, rock? lulz
EDIT - she's swearing now?

/end nonseriousness


Yeah, crappy lyrics are all over the place. While many genres might have really "awesome" lyrics (like prog metal), these tend to be so over metaphorical that they lose something. And let's not get started on what I like to call D&D and RPG metal. Hip hop with good lyrics tends to be much more powerful, even when dealing with the same subject matter. (compare Dream Theater's The Glass Prison with any hip hop song that deals with substance abuse)

A buddy of mine who dropped out of college recently wrote really good poems that he rapped to me once. I teared up, because they were so beautiful.

I believe that when writing something that's very powerful to you, it will naturally come out with a rap rhythm. When writing about something significant to me, that's how it comes out in my head. But when writing songs about something else, I hear it totally differently, devoid of emotion. Though that can probably be because of the topic, but still.

[sexymuffin]

Then again, he has that song "Simon Says" where he tells girls to rub on their titties 6 times

yeah which is why he's even cooler because he's still able to have fun and not take himself so seriously like all those other "intelligent" rappers.

not every song has to have a thick message in it, it's still fun to rap about girls rubbin on their titties.

[Krabsworth]

Yes it is fun.

[sexymuffin]

something else to consider as far as sales for rap music goes; one of the reasons that white people buy all the albums is because black people around the inner cities will just buy one copy and burn it off for all their friends.

a girl i know in school tells me about all the bootlegging her family is involved in for movies and music, and i've definately heard this to be true from other people.

[Dave de Sylvia]

but everyone does that

[sexymuffin]

yeah but i'm sure there are much more white people in the middle class who are all about buying CDs than there are black people in the cities the music originates from.

it's just kind of ironic that the majority of the people who are funding the "message" the rappers are putting out are so far away from the lifestyle that's being rapped about.

or somethin idk i'm tired

[TheDarkHorse]

yeah but i'm sure there are much more white people in the middle class who are all about buying CDs

or rather downloading them from their high-speed computers

your generalization fails

[sexymuffin]

or rather downloading them from their high-speed computers

your generalization fails

not really i know a lot of people who still go out and buy CDs even though the availability of downloading is there.

take my older brother for example. He has accumulated quite an extensive library of hip hop music by buying the CDs even though he works on computers for a living and is on them all the time.

white people just like feeling like they contributed to something.

[<3<3<3]

I don't think the lyrics of hip hop songs have that much of an influence on people. Lyrics about violence, drugs, and women bashin' are sometimes entertaining. Do I agree with them? No. It's not like I'm going to go women hating when I hear the lyrics, as I woudln't go corpse raping when I "hear" some metal lyrics.

I used to think that everything on the hip hop radio station was crap, and I still don't like a lot of it, but I'd give arguments that it lacks substance, that's it's just about sex, drugs, and gangstas and is worthless in general.

I've come to realise that it doesn't really matter, though. People like to go to clubs and dance to this music, to just have fun with it. Not to take it for literary truth. It's just for fun, some of the lyrics are just for the lulz. Like the laffy taffy song. How can you not laugh? There's serious hip hop too, and not all of it it's bad. But the reason why most mainstream hip hop is in the mainstream in the first place, is because it's catchy and people like it.

And it's stupid for people to think they're "above" a certain style of music.

[TheDarkHorse]

not really i know a lot of people who still go out and buy CDs even though the availability of downloading is there.
and i know plenty of people who just download and burn them.

yes, they happen to be white

white people just like feeling like they contributed to something.
please, they have it made :p

your generalization still fails

[CarnageFairy]

please, they have it made :p

your generalization still fails

Hm.

[Steerpike]

I think part of the reason these lyrical themes are so prevalent is because of past hip-hop.

While it is true that mainstream audience generally don't care for deep, meaningful lyrics, writing fun lyrics isn't always a formula for success. Mainstream hip-hop at one point tried not to take itself very seriously. That didn't pan out too well. Anybody here actually remember Kriss Kross?










Didn't think so.

Considering the extremely short-lived fad of fun-loving rap in the mainstream, I think a lot of the MCs who make it to the major labels want to play it safe by sticking to a formula of rapping about "harsh realities" because they know it appeals to a very large crowd with a high disposable income: suburban white teenagers. That's a pretty safe demographic to appeal to.

However, I do think there is a tendency among some of these guys to continue acting like thugs even after they become multi-millionaires because some part of them wants to be the next NWA and become immortalized instead of fading into obscurity once their 15 minutes run out.

[A Spoonful Supreme]

Did anyone see KRS-One talking to Sean Hannity in what was supposed to be a discussion of profanity and misogyny in Hip-Hop but turned into Hannity railing KRS for his comments about 9/11? KRS looked like a fool but I'll still listen to BDP.

[Apocalyptic Raids]

Did anyone see KRS-One talking to Sean Hannity in what was supposed to be a discussion of profanity and misogyny in Hip-Hop but turned into Hannity railing KRS for his comments about 9/11? KRS looked like a fool but I'll still listen to BDP.
Nah. Link?

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

Mainstream rap is for idiots and people who aren't looking for any substance in lyrical or melodic quality.
You're missing the fact that the melodic and timbral qualities are very substantially satisfying, if you've ever heard the music before, don't say there's other music with these qualities because whatever you're talking about is the singular representation suitable and is because it is.

[Give me Beer]

I know it has nothing to do with the topic really, but I hate seeing vapid Hip Hop lyrics pushed as the standard, even though it probably is in the US.


Well I'll just keep posting lyrics of the current top songs to prove my point, and you can keep on making broad, generalizing statements.

Clicked my links? Those are current top songs around here, are better lyrics.

Maybe one in Spanish? Understand that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hsFx_8TtwI

Sniper's first hit?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JO8gqLZjJ8µ

Mon quotidien, biffetons, ****, baston, j'me relaxe à ma façon
Pour la seule et bonne raison que l'chèque j'l'ai qu'une fois
J'suis encore chez ma mère, c'est pas à trente piges, frère
Que j'pourrais m'permettre de tout refaire
Les jours défilent, j'me demande c'que l'futur me réserve
Va savoir, j'prie pour ma famille, que Dieu les préserve
Le soir, j'vois des potes tiser, friser l'coma
A croire que le malheur les a hypnotiser
Si on s'mettait à chialer pour toutes nos galères
J't'assure qu'on chialerait encore et j'aimerais bien qu'on prouve le contraire
Bordel, les gens nous montrent du doigt
Et après, on penserait qu'cette attitude pourrait nous donner du respect
On vit comme on vit, on est comme on est
Et puis c'est tout, chacun a ses règles, ses traditions
Le reste on s'en fout
Si j'pose, j'cause la zizanie
C'est qu'le Tunisiano ose dire des choses
Ca va ça va pas, y a des hauts, y a des bas
J'compte pas faire débat, la France a causé des dégâts
Donc on vivra même si on doit souffrir
J'n'ai jamais baisser les bras même si j'm'efforce de sourire

Refrain (x2)

Je n'sais plus si j'dois rire ou pleurer, me taire ou crier
J'fais le tri et pense que prier est l'seul moyen pour laisser l'soleil briller
Certaines choses me plient en 4 et d'autres me foutent la rage
Un espèce de contraste comme le beau temps qui chasse l'orage
J'suis gris, ma vie n'est pas rose, putain j'en vois de toutes les couleurs
Le soir, je tape une dose, n'enfume la race, j'oublie mes douleurs
Mais pour l'heure, j'ne suis qu'un mec de plus sur c'navire qui chavire
C'navire qu'on appelle la France, notre souffrance, leur donne à tous le sourire
Me parles pas d'horoscope ni même d'avenir
Les choses se passent, tu ris, tu pleures et puis tu meurs
Tout est écrit, le temps s'efface et fils
La vie ne laisse que des cicatrices, c'est triste à dire
Qu'aujourd'hui même si tu te casses la gueule
Faut savoir garder le sourire
Saisir les bonnes occases, pas faire de sa vie un film comique tout naze
A base de phrases, la larme mélancolique
La larme qui fait déborder le vase
Fils, autour de toi faut être à la hauteur de soi, je crois
Que si t'attends rien d'la vie c'est normal qu'au finale elle te déçoit
Mais ne baisses pas la tête, non, ne déposes pas les armes
Aujourd'Hui, nos familles pleurent, j'te jure qu'demain elles leur verseront des larmes
La vie est trop courte, je n'cesse de m'le dire
Et plus les jours passent et plus j'en ai rien à cirer
Pas l'temps d'l'admirer, on dirait qu'ça n'cesse d'empirer
Dans la spirale, j'suis aspiré et j'irais peut-être demain sous l'gazon faire une virée
J'préfère en rire et kiffer à bloc les chirés
Mes potes, les virés
Mais pour l'moment passes moi le s., laisses moi tirer

Belgium's most famous group? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maRFZPy1eRw ? :D

[TheDarkHorse]

I think part of the reason these lyrical themes are so prevalent is because of past hip-hop.
are you serious?

past hip-hop is nothing like what we see today. Even NWA, who were the first at gangsta rap, had an actual point. The hip-hop of the past was out to send messages and let the public know how they were living since no one else dared cover them. Today's hip hop still tells us how their living, yet there is no purpose knowing about your yacht and 30 cars.

While it is true that mainstream audience generally don't care for deep, meaningful lyrics, writing fun lyrics isn't always a formula for success.
catchy lyrics, yes, and a good beat.


Mainstream hip-hop at one point tried not to take itself very seriously. That didn't pan out too well. Anybody here actually remember Kriss Kross?

yes. I loved them when i was a child.

[slashjunior]

I still have some Starflam you sent to me a couple of years back possibly longer than that I can't remember.

On my holiday to France I got some S.I.N.I.K. and Booba. I have no idea what they are saying but it sounds good and it makes me sound cultured and well travelled! I really wish international music was more popular. American music seems to dominate. I picked up some great music from Cyprus as well and that sounds great.

At the end of the day most mainstream stuff whether it be rock, hip-hop or whatever is normally going to have useless lyrics. Even classic bands like Guns n' Roses their lyrics rarely contained any earth moving poetry. It is more often that not the music that people listen to and not the lyrical content. Also, what is the big concern about talking about women in a derogatory way? Women in many cultures have been given the roll of house wife or whatever for many centuries, although there are some countries like Finland where the women are a lot more independent. Whatever happened to fun either? Materialism isn't necessarily evil, it's fun to flaunt what you have. I mean people say it is bad and it offends women, but women regularly buy hip-hop and R&B music. I think society assumes what women want, whereas in actual fact women want to act in a sexual nature as much as men do in the majority of cases.

Also, the US is its own worst enemy. It promotes capitalism which essentially is another word for materialism and it also promotes the use of guns because everyone has the "statuary right" to protect themselves, then they criticise rappers for being materialistic and promoting gun violence?

[Liberi Fatali]

I would say that the style of mainstream rap that you speak of is in its market maturation stage. Sales of this style of mainstream rap are not increasing, and the sales techniques of producers are not changing, instead relying on the same formula time and time again. It is obvious that this style of mainstream rap will only fade from the charts once consumer demand drops off. Predicting when consumer demand will drop off would be to predict tastes in an ever-evolving marketplace. Not an easy task. But I do not believe that whatever takes its place will be lyrically or thematically superior.

[Amit]

I still have some Starflam you sent to me a couple of years back possibly longer than that I can't remember.

On my holiday to France I got some S.I.N.I.K. and Booba. I have no idea what they are saying but it sounds good and it makes me sound cultured and well travelled! I really wish international music was more popular. American music seems to dominate. I picked up some great music from Cyprus as well and that sounds great.

At the end of the day most mainstream stuff whether it be rock, hip-hop or whatever is normally going to have useless lyrics. Even classic bands like Guns n' Roses their lyrics rarely contained any earth moving poetry. It is more often that not the music that people listen to and not the lyrical content. Also, what is the big concern about talking about women in a derogatory way? Women in many cultures have been given the roll of house wife or whatever for many centuries, although there are some countries like Finland where the women are a lot more independent. Whatever happened to fun either? Materialism isn't necessarily evil, it's fun to flaunt what you have. I mean people say it is bad and it offends women, but women regularly buy hip-hop and R&B music. I think society assumes what women want, whereas in actual fact women want to act in a sexual nature as much as men do in the majority of cases.

Also, the US is its own worst enemy. It promotes capitalism which essentially is another word for materialism and it also promotes the use of guns because everyone has the "statuary right" to protect themselves, then they criticise rappers for being materialistic and promoting gun violence?

you are a complete moron

[Bron-Yr-Aur]

Posting lyrics in here was kind of stupid if you're only going to post the ones by artists who should never be considered representatives of their respective genres anyway.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Even NWA, who were the first at gangsta rap, had an actual point.
No they didn't.

[Otherside]

nwa relied on shock value to a ridiculous point

[Steerpike]

are you serious?

past hip-hop is nothing like what we see today. Even NWA, who were the first at gangsta rap, had an actual point. The hip-hop of the past was out to send messages and let the public know how they were living since no one else dared cover them. Today's hip hop still tells us how their living, yet there is no purpose knowing about your yacht and 30 cars.

I think you missed my point. Read through my post again.

[beso negro]

past hip-hop is nothing like what we see today. Even NWA, who were the first at gangsta rap, had an actual point. The hip-hop of the past was out to send messages and let the public know how they were living since no one else dared cover them. Today's hip hop still tells us how their living, yet there is no purpose knowing about your yacht and 30 cars.

So "Automobile," "Fat Girl," "She Swallowed It" are nothing like the songs of today? They had purpose?

[peeted]

NWA may have relied on shock value but they still had a point (some songs any way). Can you honestly say that songs like **** the police and express yourself had no meaning or message?

[gregulus]

NWA may have relied on shock value but they still had a point (some songs any way). Can you honestly say that songs like **** the police and express yourself had no meaning or message?

Does Ludacris' song "Runaway Love" not have a point? You can't pin point one or two songs and tell me the group had a fulfilling purpose.

[peeted]

You can only pin point songs and say they fulfill a purpose, there isn't a single band alive, rock or rap that has a single purpose. Those two songs sum up fairly well the fact that the band did have messages to deliver, and therefore had a purpose other than making loads of money.

[slashjunior]

you are a complete moron

Thanks man :smoke:

[gregulus]

You can only pin point songs and say they fulfill a purpose, there isn't a single band alive, rock or rap that has a single purpose. Those two songs sum up fairly well the fact that the band did have messages to deliver, and therefore had a purpose other than making loads of money.

By putting out a couple of songs with a valid message?

[peeted]

Well yea pretty much.

Those are the two most obvious examples the lyrics of songs such as express yourself go on to justify the thinking behind some of their other songs, for example they talk about how a lot of artists rap for pop charts and are removed from "tha ghetto", and how a lot of mainstream music is completley removed from the real world. This puts songs like "Gangsta Gangsta", which seem to just glorify violence and misogyny into a context.

[Pluperfect_Arson]

To be quite honest, I do not think that today's hip hop and rap is really all that bad lyrically. Yes, it does objectify women and promotes misogyny, but violence towards women has not increased as a result. What about those who glorify the trap? There has not been an increase in drug deals.

This same argument has been going on for as long as I can remember, and nothing will ever change about it. There will always be someone who is upset about how something is done, even if the majority does not care.

To me, rap is fun and that is the bottom line. I do not consider women "bitches" and "hoes" because I listen to rap.

Also, to whoever mentioned DJ UNK's lyrics earlier, his music really is just fun. His current popular songs are all about dancing in A-Town, and that is how the majority of his album is, but he has some other tracks that promotes violence towards beating people up and objectifies women. I read an article with an interview from this guy that he works with, and the guy never thought UNK would make it because of how goofy his raps are, but UNK always made sure that his raps were put on the mix tapes that are circulated through A-Town's underground.

[EinzingerIsGod]

I recently witnessed a girl in my school's dining hall singing along to that song "I'll make it rain on dem hos" or whatever, clearly not understanding what she was actually saying. I don't get why people can settle for that level of mediocrity.

[beso negro]

Those are the two most obvious examples the lyrics of songs such as express yourself go on to justify the thinking behind some of their other songs, for example they talk about how a lot of artists rap for pop charts and are removed from "tha ghetto", and how a lot of mainstream music is completley removed from the real world.

and rappers don't do that today?

I don't get why people can settle for that level of mediocrity.

scott storch has never produced anything mediocre

[Pluperfect_Arson]

I recently witnessed a girl in my school's dining hall singing along to that song "I'll make it rain on dem hos" or whatever, clearly not understanding what she was actually saying. I don't get why people can settle for that level of mediocrity.

To "make it rain" means to throw your money up in the air and let it fall.

[EinzingerIsGod]

To "make it rain" means to throw your money up in the air and let it fall.

Thanks for clarifying the obvious.

I'm pointing out that this girl is singing along to a song that objectifies women. By saying make it rain on them hoes it refers to throwing money at strippers. But then again, that would just be pointing out the obvious.

[Pluperfect_Arson]

Thanks for clarifying the obvious.

I'm pointing out that this girl is singing along to a song that objectifies women. By saying make it rain on them hoes it refers to throwing money at strippers. But then again, that would just be pointing out the obvious.

I misread your post thinking you had said you did not understand it.

It might not be that obvious to everyone, though! People might think they mean urinating on them. O_O

[EinzingerIsGod]

I misread your post thinking you had said you did not understand it.

It might not be that obvious to everyone, though! People might think they mean urinating on them. O_O

Which is why I ask how can people accept that level of mediocrity and not read through that?

[peeted]

and rappers don't do that today?



I'm not saying that rappers dont do that now, i was merely defending NWA, plenty of rappers rap about the culture they come from and have relatively intelligent lyrical content.

[gregulus]

Psh, making it rain's for losers. I make it hail...

[EinzingerIsGod]

I'll be attending this

Rock The Bells 2007
featuring
Rage Against The Machine
Wu-Tang Clan
Cypress Hill
The Roots
Nas
Mos Def
EPMD
Public Enemy
Pharoahe Monch
MF Doom
Hieroglyphics
Blackalicious
Murs 3:16
Sage Francis
Immortal Technique
The Coup
Jedi Mind Tricks

There's some quality in that line-up.

[Krabsworth]

past hip-hop is nothing like what we see today. Even NWA, who were the first at gangsta rap, had an actual point. The hip-hop of the past was out to send messages and let the public know how they were living since no one else dared cover them. Today's hip hop still tells us how their living, yet there is no purpose knowing about your yacht and 30 cars.



oh the "nwa made deep raps" point

ic

[Iscariot]

i listen to gangsta rap for the lulz but i've seen plenty of people who try to live the lifestyle portrayed in the music and it's a shame because it just promotes a violent sub-human urban lifestyle

music has an influence on those who listen to it just like people who listened to rock in the 70's were into the drug scene and people who listen to mainstream rap are into the materialistic misogynistic lifestyle

not everyone is influenced in that way but anyone who says that it just doesn't happen is retarded for lack of a better word

[Iskandar]

Jedi Mind Tricks
Unapologetic racists.

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

And extremely violent, anti-catholic, and homophobic

[CarnageFairy]

Who cares? They're good rappers and their beats kick *** too.

I think Seasons by Cunninlynguists pretty much sums up the feelings of many in this thread.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=zRvUDdD6v1s

It's an RJD2 beat, which is ace.

[Dave de Sylvia]

I think you mean "dope".

[CarnageFairy]

Nah I'm not into that he'ron.

ya'mean?