how come u guys never use rhyme schemes?

[wammy_bar]

how come u guys never use them, like the simple abab or abba or aabb. i mean come on they can be good, just seems like everyone uses free verse. why?

[JuggerKnoT]

explain what they are



durrrrrrrrr

[Surf]

Freeverse can rhyme

But such simple rhyming (aabb, abab) can be obvious and dull. But worst of all, it encourages people to 'force the rhyme', i.e. to tailor the words of the line to fit the rhyme scheme rather than the idea.

It isn't the actual rhyme that's bad (rhyming can be a good thing). But using words other than the exact right one, just so the end sounds the same is very bad. Its obvious to the reader/listener and makes the rhyme sound dull.

You shouldn't have to compromise the song in because of mere rhymes.

And furthermore, they're not needed. There are hundreds of well written songs which don't rhyme. Just as there are good songs which rhyme.

Rhyming can be good. But the majority of people can't rhyme well enough that it seems natural.

[Permanent Solution]

I rarely write without rhyming.

I just use more unique schemes.

[Surf]

And you can actually write which helps.

But yeah, unusual schemes help because they aren't so obvious.

People really need to realise that AAAAAAAA is not a good rhyme scheme.

[Eliminator]

yeah bob dylan circa 1965


.-.

[DeadReligion]

It's because we're punk rawk. Lol.

OMG! AAAAAAAAA ISN'T A GOOD RHYME SCHEME?!?! HOW COME I WASN'T INFORMED OF THIS?!?!

[Surf]

yeah bob dylan circa 1965

As much as I hate to admit it, this is so true.

But he can work the metaphors/imagery, even if it is across really, really bad rhyme schemes.

And he kept doing it in the 80s, when he didn't have the lyrical clout to back it up.


OMG! AAAAAAAAA ISN'T A GOOD RHYME SCHEME?!?! HOW COME I WASN'T INFORMED OF THIS?!?!

These kinds of rhyme schemes drive me to drink.

http://www.sputnikmusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=518490

[TojesDolan]

Yeah well I don't use rhyming schemes because it turns out into realyl dull, boring and doesn't really help me when it comes to coming up with original words.

:(

[wammy_bar]

Freeverse can rhyme

But such simple rhyming (aabb, abab) can be obvious and dull. But worst of all, it encourages people to 'force the rhyme', i.e. to tailor the words of the line to fit the rhyme scheme rather than the idea.

It isn't the actual rhyme that's bad (rhyming can be a good thing). But using words other than the exact right one, just so the end sounds the same is very bad. Its obvious to the reader/listener and makes the rhyme sound dull.

You shouldn't have to compromise the song in because of mere rhymes.

And furthermore, they're not needed. There are hundreds of well written songs which don't rhyme. Just as there are good songs which rhyme.

Rhyming can be good. But the majority of people can't rhyme well enough that it seems natural.

this is what i like about poetry, its a challenge to find sumthing that means sumthing, and still rhymes. otherwise poetry wouldnt be a challenge to me and therefore not a fun thing to do

[Surf]

What? poetry doesn't have to rhyme. round about the turn of the twentieth century, people broke from established forms, and its been 'out of fashion', so to speak, to use it since then (there have been modernist and post-modernist takes on rhyming and established meter, mostly used in an ironical or self aware way).

People's reaction's to poetry had alot to do with this; people used to appreciate the ability to write within a metered verse, so poets strove to make this style seem effortless. But with the advent of especially the modernist and beat poets, rhyming became unnecessary.

And if it applies to poetry, there's no reason it shouldn't apply to lyrics: the two are essentially the same.

[Seeders]

Also you can cause dissonance which will draw attention because it stands out. If you purposely defy whats expected you can sound more honest. Its saying screw trying to find a way to say something in a way that sounds beautiful, I want to say exactly what i mean so you understand precisely where im coming from.

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

Whammy bar's pretty metal you guys needn't worry about him encroaching on territory anywhere near your simplest form of intelligent discussion.

[class]

i donno for some reason i just write freely as i'm writing it and it always turns out into some random structure...i dont really strive for rhymes or structure all that much. Some of my work is just random lines, some free verse, some just writing with little rhyme; I really can't explain what's goin on inside my head when I'm writing other than the metaphors and imagery that I create. I just love writing.

by the way, i havn't posted for ages...:confused:

[SippyCup]

I write in many types of prose. "The rain in spain falls mainly on the plain"

[Surtr]

I write in many types of prose. "The rain in spain falls mainly on the plain"

AND IT DRIVES ME MOTHER ****ING INSANE.

But 'nough of that, I'm leaving on my jet plane.

[Iceman-rocker]

rhyming is a difficult ability to master completely to the point where it flows naturally.

most people suck at writing, therefore, that is why free verse is the easiest form to follow.

[punknmetal4lyf]

I don't rhyme because I think it is cheesy and cliched. The fact is, humanity spent so many centuries writing poetry and songs with these forced rhymes that it became a little old hat. It's almost corny to have a rhyme now.

[Eliminator]

rhyming is a difficult ability to master completely to the point where it flows naturally.

most people suck at writing, therefore, that is why free verse is the easiest form to follow.

You are an idiot.

[Surf]

rhyming is a difficult ability to master completely to the point where it flows naturally.

most people suck at writing, therefore, that is why free verse is the easiest form to follow.

Christ, even the guy called 'punknmetal4lyf' has more of an idea than you do.

Free verse is not the easiest form to follow. If anything, if people have any skill, they can structure the freeverse into meaning. Read the Waste Land before you disscuss free verse please.

[Permanent Solution]

Also you can cause dissonance which will draw attention because it stands out. If you purposely defy whats expected you can sound more honest. Its saying screw trying to find a way to say something in a way that sounds beautiful, I want to say exactly what i mean so you understand precisely where im coming from.

That's one of the silliest reasons I've read to not rhyme.


punk rawk

[KKS]

I rhyme.
All the time.

[incubotic]

I too rhyme all the time, everything I write is to fit a melody or whatever, though it doesnt always seem so when written down on the net without hearing the context.

People here seem to often ignore rhymes imAo because-

a) They are writing poetry rather than lyrics
b) It can sometimes be interesting to write in free verse, or they think its boring to write something that rhymes (which it can be)
c) Or they are pretencious
d) Or they cant write something in the context of real music (Im not saying its 'easy' to write something in free verse at all, but if you arent very talented at the former it may be easier)

Or maybe they're like me and their lyrics dont appear to follow a rythme when written down but do when sung with music etc. Interesting question though

[Surf]

Right, it seems some people cannot seem to grasp this. So this is going to be a big post, to try and make things a little clearer.

Firstly, to avoid confusion, we will take poetry and lyrics as one. There is nothing separate. Truly great lyrics should be able to stand on their own, with out music. And in this forum, without music, with lyrics written down, they are essentially poetry. Which is why its pretty pointless to write [guitar solo] in your work. But that’s another issue. In this context, in this forum, there is no difference between poems and lyrics. If you look at the etymology of the word, they are pretty much synonyms any way. I’m not prepared to argue this point, because I’m right (and arrogant about it).

Also, I won’t be using the phrase free verse. A lot of you are just applying this to something you see as not rhyming or unstructured, and you’re seeing non-rhyming writing as unstructured. This is completely wrong. Blank verse is very heavily structured and doesn’t rhyme. Look at modernism. Eliot’s the Waste Land is one of the first major pieces in free verse, and it is very heavily structured; he uses the structure and meter to elicit certain feelings, of isolation and abandonment, by referencing older styles and meter. So free verse is not just un-rhyming lyrics. Stop throwing the phrase around.

So rhyming.

Fundamentally, there is nothing wrong with rhyming. If you want to rhyme your work so be it. I for one don’t rhyme much. I find it constrictive and bland. When I’m writing sonnets or villanelles etc, then I will rhyme. I have nothing against it, but its not my thing.

However, just because I personally am not a fan, I do not critique work based on this. I still view, or at least try to view, everything objectively. If a piece rhymes, and it rhymes well, then I have nothing against this. Its fine. My issue is with a) people who suppose that all lyrics should rhyme, b) forced rhyming (major issue, which I will come to later) and c) people who rhyme badly.

People who think all lyrics should rhyme. This is completely wrong to be honest. Some of the best lyrics don’t rhyme, some of the best do. It is entirely down to the skill of the writer. In the same way the Shakespeare wrote rhymed and unrhymed verse, Dylan/Waters/Waits/Young/Springsteen/Oberst/Whoever write using rhyming and using non-rhyming. It’s pretty obvious that you neither need to rhyme nor do you need to discard it.

Forced Rhyming. This is a very big part of the rhyming debate. If you’ve posted stuff and someone (possibly/probably me) has told you hat the rhyming is forced, then this is a pretty bad thing. Forced rhyming is when a line is compromised in favour of making the ending sound like the line before; you don’t write the exact right thing, just something that will curtail with what has come before. This could be either because the line feels disjointed and irrelevant to its previous ones; it could be because the syntax has clearly been retarded in order to make the rhyme work. Either way, its obvious and it sticks out horribly. A forced rhyme can make me cringe, and it could have the same effect on your audience. I’m not going to give suggestions on how to avoid it, that’s not the point of this post (instead, check the s&l guide or search for threads by pixiesfanyo, who wrote a great guide on rhyming).

By forcing a rhyme you compromise your vision. This is what kills rhyming for me. It constricts you, either via meter or word choice. I want to be able to express myself exactly. If a certain word is the exact right one, then why should I change it so it sounds like another word? If my writing is strong enough, it should be able to stand without having to rhyme. Thus, any form of compromise to word choice is a compromise to integrity. The real skill with rhyming is to keep it natural. Make it sound like the rhyme is right; fully engage it within the song. I think there’s something floating around the page by Permanent Solution, who rhymes well. Notice how his rhymes never compromise what he’s trying to say. This is a good example of how to rhyme; I hold nothing against that. However, when rhyming decides a line for you, then you know you’re in trouble.

Rhyming badly. There are certain rhymes that are just so obvious, apart/heart etc, that they just undermine anything else you’ve written. The only situation I can think of where this would be acceptable is if were used in an ironic sense, or surrounded by words that justify it. But on the whole, these sorts of rhyme, when used in a beginner fashion aren’t good. Horrible obvious rhymes that just look/sound stupid. Next problem is the rhyme scheme. Most people will write in AABB (i.e. line 1 rhymes with line 2, line 3 rhymes with line 4) or ABAB. Whilst there’s nothing really wrong with these schemes, they’re very constrictive and obvious. Try something a little more abstract. Look into internal rhymes, which can be much more effective. AAAA is usually not a good scheme. It makes the lines seemed rushed, and unless it is stringently and exactly metered (e.g. down to the last little iamb) then you most likely will not be able to pull it off. As much as I love Dylan, this is one of his major faults. Its testament to his writing skill that he gets away with it. However, most people aren’t Bob Dylan, so should avoid it.

So omg big post. I doubt many people will bother reading the whole thing, but this is essentially what I feel about rhyming. If you have the skill to work it properly, then fine. But f its just going to make you compromise yourself, or make your writing seem bland and obvious then drop it. Rhyming can be a plus but more often than not its an albatross around you neck, doing more harm than good.

Also, sorry for any spelling/grammar/whatever mistakes. I can’t be bothered to proof read.

[Eliminator]

End thread.

[incubotic]

yeah good post skull, I do basically agree with all that. Rhyming only sucks if you're compromising your lyrics to fit a rhyme. I personally dont see poetry and lyrics as one and the same though, I think theyre slightly different entities most of the time but they can be one and the same. Often I read lyrics here which are decent but then I doubt they would actually work in the context of a piece of music for example, nothing to do with rhyming really just having some kind of rythme to them etc. or structure- so with my lyrics they are always written after writing the music on my guitar to fit it, I dont care whether they rhyme necessarily as long as they fit together and arent just a random stream of conciousness which is often my only gripe with some of the stuff here (not rhyming really, I was probably confusing the two a bit)

[toxicmudd]

I find that when writing it seems to come easier to me with a rhyme in it, however i dont intend to rhyme to fit any pattern, and occasionaly have songs with no rhyme at all. I personally think that its not a particularly difficult skill to use, but very hard to master. IMO i prefer to hear the half rhyme and internal rhyme as opposed to the standard rhyme at the end on the line.(that case not intended)

[wartree]

OMG! AAAAAAAAA ISN'T A GOOD RHYME SCHEME?!?! HOW COME I WASN'T INFORMED OF THIS?!?!

These kinds of rhyme schemes drive me to drink.

http://www.sputnikmusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=518490

ufff, surf you scared me for a while, i thought at first you were linking to one of my lyrics, but then i saw "drive me to drink" and i said: "no it cant be , it only would be mine if it was "make me wanna punch things"

[Surf]

Nah, its your complete lack of a grasp of the English language (I accept its not your main one) coupled with beligerance and persistence.

You seem to stay away from rhyming at least.

I personally dont see poetry and lyrics as one and the same though

Well they pretty much are. Like I said, this is the one point I will not argue about. Poetry and lyrics both stem from the same history. But whilst one exists on a written page, the other exists in an aural format. There is no way to split the line between poetry and lyrics, they are essentially one and the same. Look at Tom Waits' Small Change and William Burroughs' Ah Pook; which one is the poem, and which is the lyric? there is no difference they are essential the same.

[incubotic]

Nah, its your complete lack of a grasp of the English language (I accept its not your main one) coupled with beligerance and persistence.

You seem to stay away from rhyming at least.



Well they pretty much are. Like I said, this is the one point I will not argue about. Poetry and lyrics both stem from the same history. But whilst one exists on a written page, the other exists in an aural format. There is no way to split the line between poetry and lyrics, they are essentially one and the same. Look at Tom Waits' Small Change and William Burroughs' Ah Pook; which one is the poem, and which is the lyric? there is no difference they are essential the same.

Ok I take your point, though Im not familar with the refs. I guess I just mean in a very generic sense they often seem fairly different, its difficult to articulate really, I just feel that though their roots are the same various conventions etc. have led them in different paths/styles most of the time...but essentially your right Im sure

[The Revolution of Coy]

i never use it because it can limit you to the words you use and people can predict what will come next

[Surf]

Ok I take your point, though Im not familar with the refs. I guess I just mean in a very generic sense they often seem fairly different, its difficult to articulate really, I just feel that though their roots are the same various conventions etc. have led them in different paths/styles most of the time...but essentially your right Im sure

Right, another example. I could take two pieces of literature, both written down on paper, both well written. Are you going to be able to accurately and consistently tell me which is the lyric and which the poem? Both use exactly the same principals, but are just conveyed in a different way.

Its all in the delivery. A pizza is still a pizza, whether it comes from the microwave or the delivery boy.

[ATC]

It's not rhyme that you should be concerned about, its metre and deviance from it which makes poetry and song. Where the breath falls and the rythm are what makes things pleasant or not so pleasant. Rhymed poetry is generally terrible because people focus on the rhymes and not on the stresses of the words which rhyme should build on, not any other way.

[One_Love]

i dont rhyme much (mostly cuz im in a metal band and metal isnt so confined). but when i do, i almost NEVER do aabb, abab, or what have you. i find a lot of appeal in aaab or abac or something with an ending line out of rhyme.