Cool Sticking/Subdivision Concept

[Jezen]

Of course it's not new to some people, but it's cool nevertheless. I'll keep it short and sweet, and you get one example so the rest is up to you. Creativity to the max times ten negro.

So let's take a paradiddle. Play it in 16th notes, between two voices. Now if you play the same sticking between the same two voices, only in 8th note triplets, you have what essentially sounds the same. This is the secret behind the rhythmic illusion. If you play them consecutively within a set time frame i.e. to a click, you get a feeling that the pattern is slowing down and speeding up.

Forgive me for tab, but I don't have Sibelius on this computer yet. Here is a tab of the example in play:

SN|-o--o-oo-o--o-oo|--o-----o---o-o---o-----|
FT|o-oo-o--o-oo-o--|o---o-o---o-----o---o-o-|
CN|1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |1 t r 2 t r 3 t r 4 t r |

SN|o-oo-o--o-oo-o--|o---o-o---o-----o---o-o-|
FT|-o--o-oo-o--o-oo|--o-----o---o-o---o-----|
CN|1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |1 t r 2 t r 3 t r 4 t r |

[kdizze]

thats quite nice:)

[DrummingBen]

You can change it up a bit by playing a normal triplet paradiddle (cant remember what its called) RLRRLL then the normal one. Don't think that made any sense so I'll just say nice:)

[Det_Nosnip]

This is the secret behind the rhythmic illusion.

Thanks Gavin. :p

The concept is discussed at length in Riley's books...he calls it "stretching" and "contracting" (depending on whether you're using larger or smaller subdivisions). Very cool idea for sure.

[Jezen]

Thanks Gavin. :p

:lol: You know me inside out!

[Det_Nosnip]

When I read that, I totally heard it in Gavin's voice. :lol:

[Stickman Sam]

The phrase Rhythmic Illusion kinda gave it away!!

Cool though. I like doing exactly what you have notated there, but going to 16th note quintuplets, moving my right hand between toms and ride and keeping left alternately ghosting and accenting the snare in the sticking RLRRL.

Sexy stuff.

~~

[Jezen]

Holy crap, I haven't taken it to quintuplet level. I'll have to practice playing paradiddles through quints first.

[Pauly]

Thanks Gavin. :p

Haha, good one :thumb:

There's an example of it at the end of Prodigal if I remember correctly, so you at least know you can apply it.

[Josiah]

Haha I think that's an overly complex way of thinking about it though. It really is.

EG: Everything said in this thread comes down to - Play something, play the same thing with a different base note value.

I've always encouraged everyone to practice everything doing that. All rudiments, phrases and such should be practiced while cycling the values.
This is the same reason I tell people to practice all note values when starting, not just the common ones.

*Thats actually verbatiem from Alan Dawson*

Cause what happens... the simplest thing comes along, and it's like this huge deal.

IE: If only you had done it from the beggining, then 16th notes would be as 2nd nature as quintuplet notes, or septuplet notes, etc

For this reason, things of this nature I consider "beggining" material. Really if you think about it, your hands are already constently shifting note values and stickings already playing most anything.

All that said, there is no rhythmic illusion created from simply changing note values. That's like saying any fill that uses different note values is a rhythmic illusion, or what have you.. and it's not.

You want to get into complex, advanced, rhythmic concepts. Start by playing the 1st, 3rd and 5th notes of a quintuplet, and the next beat a 8th note triplet.

Wich is wich? Now that's an illusion.

[Det_Nosnip]

Actually, there IS an illusion: the illusion of "speeding up" or "slowing down."

[Josiah]

Actually, there IS an illusion: the illusion of "speeding up" or "slowing down."

Then you have effectively stated that any retardo or acceleradeno is an "illusion" Because that is ALL that occurs here. The same pattern was SLOWED DOWN.

That's not illuding anyone. It's OBVIOUS, the exact oppissite of an illusion.


Then this must be an illusion as well.

http://josiahmicheletti.com/technique/singles.jpg


There is no illusion here. It IS speeding up or slowing down. Metrically accelerating through the note values.

The note values dropped form 16ths, to 8th note triplets in the TS example. There is no illusion, it's very plain to see and hear.

Illusion:

1.something that deceives by producing a false or misleading impression of reality.
2.the state or condition of being deceived; misapprehension.
3.an instance of being deceived.


There's nothing decieving, false or missleading. It's very plain and very easy to hear. If we heard someone play that tab, we would know instantly exactly what he's playing. Therefore, there is no illusion present, if it is clearly understood.


Playing this -

http://josiahmicheletti.com/technique/singles.jpg

Is NOT a rhythmic illusion, regaurdless of what sticking you use.


BB here has given an effective lesson on modulation!

Point in case, check out chaffee's 'Rhythm & Meter Patterns' - BB's example is practically an identical copy of numerous modulation excerises chaffee wrote.

[PlanetaryCitizen]

I believe it was the third week of lessons I received the Table of Time (exactly from Josiah's example, but going up to 13uplets, or whatever it may be called) from my teacher. It was a tough to grasp in the early stages of percussion, but I'm very happy he introduced me to it. It leads easily into polyrhythms, which should be the next step to apply these after fills. I next bought a djembe, the perfect instrument to apply these concepts.

[Det_Nosnip]

Then you have effectively stated that any retardo or acceleradeno is an "illusion" Because that is ALL that occurs here. The same pattern was SLOWED DOWN.
The illusion is that the pattern IMPLIES a retardo. The BPM does not change, yet it feels as though it does due to the phrasing.


That's not illuding anyone. It's OBVIOUS, the exact oppissite of an illusion.
lol.


Then this must be an illusion as well.

http://josiahmicheletti.com/technique/singles.jpg
The illusion is in the phrasing.

There is no illusion here. It IS speeding up or slowing down. Metrically accelerating through the note values.

Semantics. The illusion is that of a tempo change.

The note values dropped form 16ths, to 8th note triplets in the TS example. There is no illusion, it's very plain to see and hear.
But the pattern that was played was the same and based upon even note values.

Illusion:

1.something that deceives by producing a false or misleading impression of reality.
2.the state or condition of being deceived; misapprehension.
3.an instance of being deceived.
Precise.


There's nothing decieving, false or missleading.
The deception is that the pattern implies a change in tempo.

It's very plain and very easy to hear.
Not really...play this to ANY casual listener and they will say "the drummer slowed down."

If we heard someone play that tab, we would know instantly exactly what he's playing. Therefore, there is no illusion present, if it is clearly understood.
Josiah, you're arguing irrelevant semantics. It may be clearly understood by somebody who has been playing drums for 20 years, but I guarantee the average music listener isn't going to say "Oh, he just modulated to the triplet...DUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrrr. :rolleyes: "

Playing this -

http://josiahmicheletti.com/technique/singles.jpg


Is NOT a rhythmic illusion, regaurdless of what sticking you use.
True, but if you were to accent every other note of the quintuplets or play a typical 4/4 pattern counting each note as an 8th note you WOULD imply the illusion of a tempo shift comparable to the modulation.


BB here has given an effective lesson on modulation!
Which is one of the principal components of rhythmic illusions. :p

Point in case, check out chaffee's 'Rhythm & Meter Patterns' - BB's example is practically an identical copy of numerous modulation excerises chaffee wrote.

Right. In other words, Chaffee also described rhythmic illusions.

[scottyhons]

n00b question:

who's gavin?

[Undisco Kidd]

I hate you BB.

You're takin' my material.

I've been playing 4 triplets as 3 paradiddles for a year now.

I demand 10% of the money you make from drumming.

Also 10% of the sex with your hot girlfriend.

[DrummingBen]

n00b question:

who's gavin?

Gavin Harrison, rhythmic master.

[scottyhons]

thanks :D

[Jezen]

BB here has given an effective lesson on modulation!

Point in case, check out chaffee's 'Rhythm & Meter Patterns' - BB's example is practically an identical copy of numerous modulation excerises chaffee wrote.


Yeah well done for failing to note that metric modulation is a type of rhythmic illusion.

There is no illusion here. It IS speeding up or slowing down. Metrically accelerating through the note values.

As Ted has already said, the average listener doesn't have a clue about metric modulation, which is the reason it is a rhythmic illusion. Why the hell are you retorting with examples of subdivisions of single strokes on a single sound source? I clearly stated "Paradiddles over two sound sources", otherwise the illusion doesn't work.

Reading Ted's post, he has covered it all pretty much.

But seriously, you're saying that "Obvious" is the exact opposite of "Illusion". Have you not realised that metric modulation needs to kind of seem obvious to trick the listener?

Duhhh.

Jos you lose.

[Josiah]

HAha no little boy, I win. That's why I can out play you with one hand.

Yeah well done for failing to note that metric modulation is a type of rhythmic illusion.

I clearly stated "Paradiddles over two sound sources", otherwise the illusion doesn't work.


Well done for failing reasoning. Watch this...

Modulation CAN be an illusion, but is not always. Can't read? Nobody is shaking their heads wondering what went on when a song goes to half time or double time do they?

Nope, not at all. Therefore.. no illusion. Yet there is metric modulation. Ooh gosh, sorry you loose. Metric modulation without rhythmic illusion.



As to your 2nd statement, you are no authority on anything regaurding this. AND I highly suggest you go study a LOT before you speak that way.
I got a few 1,000 snare drummers over here that can demonstrate any number of rhythmic illusions on single surface.

Drumlines have been doing this for decades. Get with the program dude.


Cause I think you have potential, I'll give you a hint. Go study up on inverted rudiments, they are one of the cornerstones of rudimental playing that messes with peoples heads.

Here's why that's a great starting point, and as I've mentioned, one of a MUCH simpler approach to the subject.

1. It uses a single surface/sound to create rhythmic illusions.

2. It's VERY simple. Most of them involve only moving accents around.

3. It allows a player to see how easy it is to create illuding rhythms and sounds. Even on 1 surface, with very simple rhythmic patterns.

4. It's non-context based.

Once you have learned that stuff on a single surface, then take it to multiple surfaces, and into contexts that can really jack with people.


You guys can argue til you are blue in the face. Chaffee still owns the subject. And BB's tab is a friggin starting excerise on modulation in his odd rhythms book. Straight out copy. What does Chaffee call it.. modulation.

Modulation is NOT synomous with Illusion. (see half time example).

Now you can use that modulation, orchastrated in a way to create illusions. But just changing the note values, is plain and simple, JUST modulation.

The context of the rhythm will decide on if it is creating an illusion for the listener.

BB's tab at the top of this page, on it's own, is nothing but a simple modulation excerise, right out of Chaffee's modulation book.

In the right context, it could create some rhythmic illusion, and in others, it will not. On it's own, it's just simple modulation.

[Jezen]

HAha no little boy, I win. That's why I can out play you with one hand.


Over-inflated ego FTL.

Modulation is NOT synomous with Illusion. (see half time example).


I think it's obvious we're not talking about moving from a duple base to another duple base.

BB's tab at the top of this page, on it's own, is nothing but a simple modulation excerise, right out of Chaffee's modulation book.

Haven't read it. If it's a copy, well there ya go. Coincidence.

[Electric Requiem]

I think it's obvious we're not talking about moving from a duple base to another duple base.


Exactly, base 2 modulations (half-time, double-time, quadruple-time) obviously don't confuse anyone.

The way BB's example is written out it could illude someone who might view it as a tempo shift. By moving into a new beat after only playing the paradiddle three times the average listener would be illuded. It gets even easier when shifting to more complicated over-the-barline phrases. If the drummer doesn't wait for the pattern to resolve nicely, the listener will be illuded.
BB's example isn't the best at illuded someone, but rather it is an entry level example of modulation, which, at higher levels, can be quite good at illuding listeners.

[Det_Nosnip]

Though I'm loathe to beat a dead horse, I would actually say that duple-duple is still an "illusion," of sorts. It gives the illusion that the tempo has doubled or halved by altering the treatment of note values...quarters are treated as 8ths or half notes, etc. The tempo marker in reality stays the same, yet any basic listener would say that the song has gotten faster.

[Jezen]

Ah well yeah of course, it's just much less confusing.