Ornette Coleman

[CaptainWaits]

Today I came back from the CD store with "The Shape of Jazz to Come". It was relatively cheap, and I felt like buying something different. Previously I've heard the two parts of "At the Golden Circle: Live", and it was some experimental swing that I enjoyed.

So after buying this album, it's the first swing album I've bought so far to my name. I'm really enjoying it. I like the experimenting and how it varies from the majority of swing. Good stuff, and I'm sure it will pursue me to buy some more throughout the Genre.

Discuss Coleman!

[jazzfromhell]

Just to let you know, Ornette Coleman is a universe away from swing. Not really a universe, but it's pretty damn far.

Anyway, he's amazing. He's lead an incredible career, with many great recordings, and he's still going strong. I saw him about a year and a halfa go and it was awesome. Sound Grammar was my second favorite jazz album released last year, and my favorite of those that were actually new recordings. It put a big smile on my face (and from what I hear, his) to see the Red Hot Chili Peppers play at the Grammys with a big white sign saying "Love to Ornette Coleman."

[CaptainWaits]

Why would you say he's far away from swing?? I'm still hearing quite a bit of "ding-chuck-a-ding", so that connects with swing for sure. Yeh, I know he's know directly involved with swing, but from what I hear you can pick out some elements...

[GhostNote]

"Ding-chuck-a-ding" - that's the default jazz cymbal pattern, played in every style of jazz. Yes, he is far away from swing.


-GN

[something vague]

ornette is the worst jazz musician ebveri i hope h des

[Manticore Guy]

I love Ornette Coleman's playing and his music, especially on that album and his others from the late '50s and early 60s.

[Elliptical Ion]

Best thread. The Shape of Jazz to Come is so amazing.

[joas]

saw him last summer at the montreux jazz festival.. single greatest musical experience or otherwise of my life

[Elliptical Ion]

I believe it.

[Rams]

Tomorrow Is The Question is the best jazz album ever.

[Robert Crumb]

Prove it. With science.

p.s. Change of the Century is my favorite Coleman I've heard so far but I haven't heard much, really.

[CaptainWaits]

"Ding-chuck-a-ding" - that's the default jazz cymbal pattern, played in every style of jazz. Yes, he is far away from swing.


-GN
Yeh, I know that....and doesn't Coleman's drummer use that at times?

[Zebra]

I haven't heard any of his music yet. I'm still busy with Coltrane and Mingus.

[Rams]

You're wasting your time with Coltrane. That guy was going through the motions until A Love Supreme, then he was just boring.

[Kage]

Jesus Christ, Rams, could you be any more wrong on any subject?

[Dr. Jake Destructo]

Swung 8ths =/= Swing

[jazzfromhell]

Yeh, I know that....and doesn't Coleman's drummer use that at times?

Erm, I hate to inform you, he was being sarcastic. That beat is far from being used in every style of jazz. Ornette Coleman's drummers would often use what might be referred to as a "swing" pattern, but like Dr. Jake said, that doesn't necessarily mean the music itself is swing. Think of it this way: the Beatles and Metallica both use a standard 4/4 rock beat, right? But they use them in totally different styles, with different dynamics, tones, etc. They're using the same basic pattern, but for different purposes and in different manners. Thus, the Beatles are basic rock (actually, I'm not sure what you'd call them in terms of genre, maybe British invasion?), while Metallica is metal. Coming back to jazz, Count Basie and Ornette use the same basic drums pattern, but in different ways, and thus the former is swing while the latter is free/avant-garde. I understand why you'd get confused, though, when I first started on jazz I didn't even consciously register the difference between A Love Supreme and Benny Goodman.

P.S. Off-topic, but Kage, did you ever get to seeing Inland Empire? What'd you think of it?

[Joseph India]

I've learned a lot from just listening to Ornette. Every musician can learn about style and creativity and being yourself by listening to his melodies and the way he improvises.
Ornette and Albert Ayler are my favorite musicians.

[CaptainWaits]

Yeh, k I feel like an idiot now, after reading over some posts from people who are far more knowlegeable and understanding to Coleman and other forms of jazz in general. And after reading my last post over, a realize I miss-interpreted GhostNotes post by a long shot :(

The only jazz I really listen to often is the experimental side, and groove side. Ex, MMW, The Bad Plus, Charlie Hunter, John Scofield, Sex Mob, etc...

My bad for the arrogance I've brought here, and I made the thread, heh.

[Rams]

Jesus Christ, Rams, could you be any more wrong on any subject?

Yet I can guarantee I've heard more Jazz and Coltrane than you. I'm a Rollins fan.


The only jazz I really listen to often is the experimental side, and groove side. Ex, MMW, The Bad Plus, Charlie Hunter, John Scofield, Sex Mob, etc...


You might want to check out Ornette's later work with Prime Time. He takes his free-jazz approach with funk rhythms. Kind of strange.

I've learned a lot from just listening to Ornette. Every musician can learn about style and creativity and being yourself by listening to his melodies and the way he improvises.
Ornette and Albert Ayler are my favorite musicians.

I'm too lazy to look the passage up, but there was a little piece written about how Ayler basically came into the game as an arrogant young'en trying to show up Ornette in his own style (something on the line of "I'm gonna make 'em sweat"). Unfortunately Ornette never gave a **** what anyone else thought and kept playing his thing. Fortunately for us his thing was insane, yet sweet sounding.

[Joseph India]

I'm too lazy to look the passage up, but there was a little piece written about how Ayler basically came into the game as an arrogant young'en trying to show up Ornette in his own style (something on the line of "I'm gonna make 'em sweat"). Unfortunately Ornette never gave a **** what anyone else thought and kept playing his thing. Fortunately for us his thing was insane, yet sweet sounding.
really?
that sounds wrong to me.
Ayler's early stuff sounds nothing like Ornette or any of it for that matter. Ayler listened to a lot of Ornette before he came up with his style, but why would he try to show him up? From what I know about Ayler he looked up to Ornette very much.
It's true he was very confident (maybe arrogant at first) about his abilities, but I don't see any reason to connect that to trying to show up Ornette.

[Rams]

It was more in jest than serious. It's when you are young and stupid with a I'm good enough to conquer the world mentality. Then Ornette just destroyed anyone in his path towards his vision.

[jazzfromhell]

Yeh, k I feel like an idiot now, after reading over some posts from people who are far more knowlegeable and understanding to Coleman and other forms of jazz in general. And after reading my last post over, a realize I miss-interpreted GhostNotes post by a long shot :(

The only jazz I really listen to often is the experimental side, and groove side. Ex, MMW, The Bad Plus, Charlie Hunter, John Scofield, Sex Mob, etc...

My bad for the arrogance I've brought here, and I made the thread, heh.

Don't be so hard on yourself. Like I said, when I started out on jazz, I made some blunders myself. That's how you learn. Enjoy your Ornette. :)

[CaptainWaits]

Are there any other artists similar to Orenette I could be looking out for? If I ever want any Miles, Coltrane, Mingus, Thelonius, etc....my bro's loaded with all that. I'm just looking out for more of the experimental side. Any suggestions?

[Rams]

Just to name a few:

Andrew Hill's Judgement!
Archie Shepp's Fire Music
Bobby Hutcherson's Live at Montreux
Cecil Taylor's The World of Cecil Taylor
Dave Holland's Conference Of The Birds
David Murry Octet's Octet Plays Trane
Don Cherry's Eternal Rhythm
George Lewis Homage to Charles Parker
Joseph Jarman's Song For
Sam Rivers' Contours
Sonny Rollins' East Broadway Run Down
William Parker's Painter's Spring

[CaptainWaits]

^Sweet. Thanks for that :)

rep+

[Rams]

Do you want any of them uploaded?

[CaptainWaits]

It won't do anything for me, I'm on a dial-up :(. I'll just have to write those down and go hunting for them :)

[Dr. Jake Destructo]

If you're volunteering free jazz (omg free 2 ways lulz) then I'd definitely take them. I'm barely beginning to get into the genre, so if you'd be so kind as to upload a few of your favorites, I'd greatly appreciate it.

[Amit]

free jazz

what's so free about it really >:[

[Joseph India]

Ornette doesn't claim to play free jazz. There is a theory behind his music that he calls Harmolodics.
Don't ask me to try to explain it because it's sort of complicated and I don't completely understand.
If you read his biography by Peter Niklas Wilson you can get an idea.

[Rams]

Don Cherry's Eternal Rhythm
megaupload.com/?d=SQ4OHZLG

Cecil Taylor - The World of Cecil Taylor
megaupload.com/?d=917WHOJ6

free jazz

what's so free about it really >:[

Freedom isn't free.

[Dr. Jake Destructo]

free jazz

what's so free about it really >:[

idk, find some on slsk

[CaptainWaits]

After listening more closely to some Ornette, I'm wondering how you can't term him swing. Listening to the drum patterns and bass lines seems like really standard swing to me, just with wacked out sax solos and such.

And his live sh*t is pretty much the same.

[Rams]

Gene Krupa - Sing, Sing, Sing = swing
http://youtube.com/watch?v=j9J5Zt2Obko

Ornette Coleman .... not so much
http://youtube.com/watch?v=BSzOEahNh1I

If you can't tell the difference, I am sorry.

[CaptainWaits]

I'm on a school computer, so I can't view youtube....but even if the comparison isn't similar, why would that mean he isn't swing? w/e, by listening to the patterns, I feel he plays a type of swing, whether it's directly similar to the likes of Kruppa or not, I don't think it matters...

[Joseph India]

Have you heard any bebop such as Charlie Parker? Do you think that sounds like swing too?
If so you might be misinterpreting the idea of Swing as a genre.
It sounds like you might consider all jazz from 1900-1960 swing.

[Dr. Jake Destructo]

After listening more closely to some Ornette, I'm wondering how you can't term him swing. Listening to the drum patterns and bass lines seems like really standard swing to me, just with wacked out sax solos and such.

And his live sh*t is pretty much the same.

Walking basslines and swung eighth notes are standard elements of all jazz. The rythmic basis is only a minor element of the music.

Big band/standard swing music features mostly inside playing, eg playing inside the given key, whereas free jazz is largely based on outside playing. Higher technicality is also found in free jazz. Atonal noises such as wails and screams are common in free jazz. Swing is more contemporary and straight-forward; generally easier to listen to and enjoyed by a larger audience.

[Eliminator]

Swing is also very boring to play most of the time!

[jazzfromhell]

^Not if you're with the Duke or the Count.

[Rams]

The Blanton-Webster band is the greatest thing ever.

Buddy Rich lead some exciting big bands.

[joe0559]

"Avant garde" jazz makes my ears bleed. Ayler especially, but even Coltrane's stuff.

I like Coleman though. He's not so out there like some of those other guys, most of the time. Congeniality is a favorite of mine. What's with all this talk about him being... uh... swing?

[telemore]

I dunno, it killed a good thread.


Skies of America has to be the single most amazing thing I have ever heard. The brass players put up a damn good fight but that's like half an hour of extremely high stuff man.

[gaslight]

Ornette Coleman is freakin' amazing.