Double Kicking for Beginners

[8_4Life_8]

So I just bought a double kick pedal and I was wondering if anyone had any advice as to how I should I should work on building speed, consistency, and rhythm. To get my weaker leg stronger I'm going to start playing all single pedal songs with that foot but is there anything else I can do? Thanks.

[DrumIntoTheNight]

60 Bpm. Stick Control. Months. (in the words of CasB)

I renew my call for a dedicated double kick thread.

[Pearldrumguy]

To build endurance and coordination. When ever I am sitting down doing something when I'm not playing I do rhythms with my feet for as long as I can and fast as I can.

[Josiah]

Start off very slow, with a metronome, playing all of the sub divisions against it, in various forms, structures and meter's.

Strive to maintain consitent sound and feel for every single note. Don't worry about the tempo, ignore it. 40-70bpm is your friend right now. Super slow, super smooth. Gradually... VERY gradually building the speed, ONLY when everything is perfect for a week or two at the previous tempo.

You can also use the 8th note sticking patterns out of the first part of stick control doing all of the above.

Assuredly, if you do these things. Forget about speed and flash now. Work on very controlled, very consitent notes with great feel. In due time, your feet will be glorious.

Then all the other people will waste their time trying to play as fast as they can for years, trying with great effort, though in vain, to achieve what you have, in a seemingly very short period of time. Then you can smile, and know.. the secret was control.


Both excerises on this page are excellent for the feet. I recommend putting a 1 beat phrase of the different note values into the Bent pattern. Notice now, it's just 1 beat of 16ths. Do the whole pattern using 1 beat of 16ths, then quintuplets, sextuplets, septuplets and 32nds. Do this all left foot AND right foot lead.

I recommend starting off with the note value excerise at around 45bpm, and repeating each bar 4 times. Go down, then back up. Right and Left foot lead. Do not move the tempo until every transition and note is clean. When you change note values, the change is immediate, and does not take a few notes to even out.
When you get to that place, stay there for a few days. Then bump the tempo up 3 or 4 bpm.

http://josiahmicheletti.com/technique.htm


That seems like a long, slow, tedious process. Though I promise you, and there is no risk here, that if you take that route. In a years time, you will be able to play things with your feet, so smooth and with such great feel. You'll be blowing most people away who have been working on double bass for years.

Very few are willing to do it the right way, wich is why it's very rare you actually see a good, clean, creative double bass player.

[Retarded Chipple]

Does tapping your feet on the floor help? I don't have a double pedal but really need to work on my feet and its not always possible to sit at the kit with bass+hat foot.

Obviously playing on the floor doesn't really help with note consistency but will it help on my foot coordination, strengthen my weaker foot etc? I know its not as good as having a real pedal but is tapping my feet on the floor gonna having any affect at all?


Sorry to hijack thread btw.

[8_4Life_8]

Really good advice people thanks. Also, what's the deal on heel up or heel down?

[Retarded Chipple]

Really good advice people thanks. Also, what's the deal on heel up or heel down?

Heel up is...well...playing with your heel up i.e. not touching the pedal board. Kinda like standing on tip-toes only relaxed. Good for getting lots of power, accents etc.

Heel down is having your foot flat on the pedal. You probably won't get quite as much power with heel down. Its easier to play more delicate notes with which are often called upon in jazz.

Familiarise yourself with both ways of playing.


P.S. Someone else could probably explain it better, thats just the basics right there^^^

[CARMEN77]

60 Bpm. Stick Control. Months. (in the words of CasB)

I renew my call for a dedicated double kick thread.

THOSE WHERE MY WORDS HE TOOK THEM FROM ME ****ING OMG

[Pearldrumguy]

I'm gonna work on those with my hands and feet. Also relaxing is very important.

[Josiah]

"Does tapping your feet on the floor help?"

No, only to work out ideas. Not for geniune helpful practice.


"Also, what's the deal on heel up or heel down?"

Different techniques. Heel down is something older, or used in lower volume situations.
My recommendation is to learn the basic techniques, can get them all down, be it you will use them or like them or not. Heel Down, Heel Up (flat footed) and Heel -Toe.

There is a heel up, wich just uses a twitching motion of the ankle. You see a lot of death metal guys doing this. There is absolutely no power, and the kicks MUST be triggered and amplified. Not a recommend technique. You get do the same in better ways.

The best way, most effective method, of playing the kick drum. Is while sitting normally, wich good posture. You lift your leg (thinking of drawing hte knee straight up into the air), the rest of the leg, including foot is relaxed. As the leg rises, the foot will drop and the toes will point down. You only need life your leg enough to get the foot to rise off the pedals foot board, with the toes even still touching it.

And drop the leg. Let gravity do it for you. Average human leg weighs like 60lbs. That's a ton of force to put into a kick, for not a lot of effort.

That's basica heel up technique. From there, assuming you worked on the other techniques. You feet will be able to figure out how to play whatever notes you want. You don't have to worry about hurting your feet like your hands, so you can really ignore the technique side once that stuff is done, and just consentrate on sound.

Check out the video's of Grant Collins playign 3 camps on a double bass pedal. He's pretty much doing just as I described. He's worked at it, and has some incredible control and technique at this point. It is however, a glimpse of whats out there for you.

[Retarded Chipple]

"Does tapping your feet on the floor help?"

No, only to work out ideas. Not for geniune helpful practice.

Really? Not even to help coordination or strengthening my left foot?

Damn, looks like I better get me a DB pedal!

[Pearldrumguy]

I do that and it helped me build endurance. But my feet chops sucked really bad on account of not playing set for a long time. Joe Stronsick says that rolling on your bass drum heel toe helps build singles. I got his ballistic bass drum material and I didnt really like it. Paid like $100 for him to show me the heel toe technique. Meh. He says its not. I don't recommend anyone buy it. Over priced and all he shows you is the heel toe technique and advertises other things he sells. Do chops sticks really help?

[Josiah]

Really? Not even to help coordination or strengthening my left foot?

Damn, looks like I better get me a DB pedal!

Well, not to strengthen it. You have to play to do that.

Cooridination could be, like i said, to work out ideas it can help to get though out in a physical way.

As far as technical practice, playing notes and making them feel good. No. You have to play notes really.

Though there is something to be said for being able to do it with other motions, etc.. dunno if it'd be worth it though.


You can get a LOT done in 1 hour of concentrated practice. Most people have more time then that to practice, it's the concentration part they lack...

[crazyguy832]

100 bucks for heel-toe?

XD

Wow, I'm sorry, but... I mean... hell... I've got a free lesson with videos on this website itself. And, well, it's not hard. It's heel...toe....heel...toe. Meh, that guy's an idiot for charging you that.

[Retarded Chipple]

Seems I should just get a DB pedal then....or at least another single to use on a bass pad.

You can get a LOT done in 1 hour of concentrated practice. Most people have more time then that to practice, it's the concentration part they lack...

Thats why you break the hour up though...to help you stay focused.

[TTTSNB]

"Does tapping your feet on the floor help?"

No, only to work out ideas. Not for geniune helpful practice.


"Also, what's the deal on heel up or heel down?"

Different techniques. Heel down is something older, or used in lower volume situations.
My recommendation is to learn the basic techniques, can get them all down, be it you will use them or like them or not. Heel Down, Heel Up (flat footed) and Heel -Toe.

There is a heel up, wich just uses a twitching motion of the ankle. You see a lot of death metal guys doing this. There is absolutely no power, and the kicks MUST be triggered and amplified. Not a recommend technique. You get do the same in better ways.

The best way, most effective method, of playing the kick drum. Is while sitting normally, wich good posture. You lift your leg (thinking of drawing hte knee straight up into the air), the rest of the leg, including foot is relaxed. As the leg rises, the foot will drop and the toes will point down. You only need life your leg enough to get the foot to rise off the pedals foot board, with the toes even still touching it.

And drop the leg. Let gravity do it for you. Average human leg weighs like 60lbs. That's a ton of force to put into a kick, for not a lot of effort.

That's basica heel up technique. From there, assuming you worked on the other techniques. You feet will be able to figure out how to play whatever notes you want. You don't have to worry about hurting your feet like your hands, so you can really ignore the technique side once that stuff is done, and just consentrate on sound.

Check out the video's of Grant Collins playign 3 camps on a double bass pedal. He's pretty much doing just as I described. He's worked at it, and has some incredible control and technique at this point. It is however, a glimpse of whats out there for you.
That's basically what a lot of death metal guys do too...the "flatfoot" technique, so to speak.

[crazyguy832]

If Derek Roddy plays flatfoot I think most death metal could be played flatfoot (exception being he hits the pedalboard with his heel rather than toes... I've been trying it and it's actually very comfortable and natural).

:chug:

[sLarkin20]

Bobby Rondinelli states in the intro to his book, The Encyclopedia of Double Bass Drumming, that "tapping your feet IS practicing." So since one of the authors of arguably one of the best double bass books in the world says it, I'd have to say it does help.

You should grab that book if you can as well, I got a double pedal probably 2-3 months BEFORE I got that book...needless to say I wish I got both at the same time, even if I had to wait longer.

The coordination in both my feet has improved so much since working with that book, and my left foot has gotten MUCH stronger as well. With all the left-foot lead patterns in there, its forced me to play things I probably never would have on my own.

[Drummer300btx]

Does tapping your feet on the floor help? I don't have a double pedal but really need to work on my feet and its not always possible to sit at the kit with bass+hat foot.

Obviously playing on the floor doesn't really help with note consistency but will it help on my foot coordination, strengthen my weaker foot etc? I know its not as good as having a real pedal but is tapping my feet on the floor gonna having any affect at all?


Sorry to hijack thread btw.

it helps a little. my guitarist dabbles on drums, he plays db this way, and he doesn't suck at db.

[Josiah]

Bobby Rondinelli states in the intro to his book, The Encyclopedia of Double Bass Drumming, that "tapping your feet IS practicing." So since one of the authors of arguably one of the best double bass books in the world says it, I'd have to say it does help.


Yes, it is. However, is it effective practice is the question.


While his book may be popular, his feet are by no means close to the monsters out there...

[poopoogaypoonn]

"Does tapping your feet on the floor help?"

No, only to work out ideas. Not for geniune helpful practice.


"Also, what's the deal on heel up or heel down?"

Different techniques. Heel down is something older, or used in lower volume situations.
My recommendation is to learn the basic techniques, can get them all down, be it you will use them or like them or not. Heel Down, Heel Up (flat footed) and Heel -Toe.

There is a heel up, wich just uses a twitching motion of the ankle. You see a lot of death metal guys doing this. There is absolutely no power, and the kicks MUST be triggered and amplified. Not a recommend technique. You get do the same in better ways.

The best way, most effective method, of playing the kick drum. Is while sitting normally, wich good posture. You lift your leg (thinking of drawing hte knee straight up into the air), the rest of the leg, including foot is relaxed. As the leg rises, the foot will drop and the toes will point down. You only need life your leg enough to get the foot to rise off the pedals foot board, with the toes even still touching it.

And drop the leg. Let gravity do it for you. Average human leg weighs like 60lbs. That's a ton of force to put into a kick, for not a lot of effort.

That's basica heel up technique. From there, assuming you worked on the other techniques. You feet will be able to figure out how to play whatever notes you want. You don't have to worry about hurting your feet like your hands, so you can really ignore the technique side once that stuff is done, and just consentrate on sound.

Check out the video's of Grant Collins playign 3 camps on a double bass pedal. He's pretty much doing just as I described. He's worked at it, and has some incredible control and technique at this point. It is however, a glimpse of whats out there for you.

I think you mean heel down?

[Gary Lover]

The previous posters have a good idea of what needs to be done to get a good foundation in double bass drum playing. One thing to note about practicing by tapping your feet: a previous teacher of mine (high profile in the drumming world) used to have his students do these ankle exercises. Basically you maintain a comfortable heel up position by sitting back on your throne or chair (but don't lean your body back, sit with your torso centered) and do repetitive strokes. It doesn't have to be fast... a lot of the time we'd only be doing 16ths at 80 bpm or sometimes less. But the only catch is you have to lift you ankles up. Really jack them up there. This stretches out your calf muscles. The 5 minute point is where you really start to feel permanent change in your leg muscles, so keep it up! You will definitely feel the burn, but it will pay off! Also, keep your knee movement very minor, if move them at all during this exercise.

Knee movement does come into play when actually playing at a drumset, but still should be minimized. The best heel up technique is a combination of a lot of complicated things going on in your legs; ultimately you are using both your ankle/calfs and your knee/thigh/hip extendors in a fluid motion. Unfortunately, most of our calfs and ankles need a lot more conditioning than the larger muscle groupings up top. Thus, that exercise. By minimizing the knee movement, you may feel less power in your playing at first. But as your ankles build up in strength you will regain both power and retain the finesse and precision most think of in heel down playing.

Again, a little bit of knee movement is not bad, but it is certainly not a huge up and down running motion. This is a large waste of energy and is hard to control dynamically. Your knees will move slightly, but should only be assisting your ankle/calf movement.


Gary :thumb:

[Little Android Man]

Start off very slow, with a metronome, playing all of the sub divisions against it, in various forms, structures and meter's.

Strive to maintain consitent sound and feel for every single note. Don't worry about the tempo, ignore it. 40-70bpm is your friend right now. Super slow, super smooth. Gradually... VERY gradually building the speed, ONLY when everything is perfect for a week or two at the previous tempo.

You can also use the 8th note sticking patterns out of the first part of stick control doing all of the above.

Assuredly, if you do these things. Forget about speed and flash now. Work on very controlled, very consitent notes with great feel. In due time, your feet will be glorious.

Then all the other people will waste their time trying to play as fast as they can for years, trying with great effort, though in vain, to achieve what you have, in a seemingly very short period of time. Then you can smile, and know.. the secret was control.


Both excerises on this page are excellent for the feet. I recommend putting a 1 beat phrase of the different note values into the Bent pattern. Notice now, it's just 1 beat of 16ths. Do the whole pattern using 1 beat of 16ths, then quintuplets, sextuplets, septuplets and 32nds. Do this all left foot AND right foot lead.

I recommend starting off with the note value excerise at around 45bpm, and repeating each bar 4 times. Go down, then back up. Right and Left foot lead. Do not move the tempo until every transition and note is clean. When you change note values, the change is immediate, and does not take a few notes to even out.
When you get to that place, stay there for a few days. Then bump the tempo up 3 or 4 bpm.

http://josiahmicheletti.com/technique.htm


That seems like a long, slow, tedious process. Though I promise you, and there is no risk here, that if you take that route. In a years time, you will be able to play things with your feet, so smooth and with such great feel. You'll be blowing most people away who have been working on double bass for years.

Very few are willing to do it the right way, wich is why it's very rare you actually see a good, clean, creative double bass player.


Hey Jos, i have been working with my double bass for about 3 months now. it hasn't really been a serious thing, ive just been messing around with it.
i would like it to get serious though. so after that step that you just mentioned, what would be the next step, and even the next one.

I think you mean heel down?

heel up.
like... your foot is raised up, with your toes still touching the board. it has very little power, and is very innefficiant, seeing you probably use up a lot of energy.

[poopoogaypoonn]

Hey Jos, i have been working with my double bass for about 3 months now. it hasn't really been a serious thing, ive just been messing around with it.
i would like it to get serious though. so after that step that you just mentioned, what would be the next step, and even the next one.



heel up.
like... your foot is raised up, with your toes still touching the board. it has very little power, and is very innefficiant, seeing you probably use up a lot of energy.
wha? He misnamed one.

[Josiah]

Zep got it. No mistake made.


Hey Jos, i have been working with my double bass for about 3 months now. it hasn't really been a serious thing, ive just been messing around with it.
i would like it to get serious though. so after that step that you just mentioned, what would be the next step, and even the next one.




Haha well if you had run through everything I said. The next step would be to complicate matters, move into working on rudiments, phrases except, broken between your hands, different phrasing over phrasing, polyrhthmic stuff, etc there's a whole world out there. It's really only limited to your imagination.

[Gary Lover]

I remember when working double bass with a teacher he forced me to play heel up, which I hated. I played everything heel down, because it was more comfortable and gave me more control. I did lack power, though, and am glad I stuck it through. I don't play much double bass, but I'm a better musician for working on the techniques.

I still believe you should learn both, but learn them each correctly.

Gary :thumb:

[poopoogaypoonn]

But dont you have two diff description for heel up?

[Gary Lover]

Pardon?

Gary :thumb:

[poopoogaypoonn]

Am talking to Josiah Gary

Ive read it again and I swear, am reading two diff. description for heel up

[Gary Lover]

Oh, my mistake!

Gary :thumb:

[jiashen]

The best way, most effective method, of playing the kick drum. Is while sitting normally, wich good posture. You lift your leg (thinking of drawing hte knee straight up into the air), the rest of the leg, including foot is relaxed. As the leg rises, the foot will drop and the toes will point down. You only need life your leg enough to get the foot to rise off the pedals foot board, with the toes even still touching it.

And drop the leg. Let gravity do it for you. Average human leg weighs like 60lbs. That's a ton of force to put into a kick, for not a lot of effort.

That's basica heel up technique.

I've been playing this way for quite a long time, and every time I play for extended periods, this small muscle of my quads that connects to my hips (I think it's called the rectus femoris) starts to ache. Should this be the case? I'm always concerned about whether my technique is right.

And it always feels easier when I sit higher, i.e. angle at my knees greater than 90 degrees.

[crazyguy832]

Your legs should be at a greater than 90 degree angle.

Also, it's virtually impossible to actually hurt your leg or ankle when playing drums (in that regard, it's much safer than playing with hands). If you get tired quickly one way, start trying other ways to see if it's easier.

[DxRocker]

My philosophy is: whatever goes for the right foot, goes for the left as well.

keep that in mind next time you sit behind the set

[Little Android Man]

Zep got it. No mistake made.






Haha well if you had run through everything I said. The next step would be to complicate matters, move into working on rudiments, phrases except, broken between your hands, different phrasing over phrasing, polyrhthmic stuff, etc there's a whole world out there. It's really only limited to your imagination.

o sorry, i guess i didnt catch that.
thanks a lot, ill probably be working from your site fore a while with some of the first page of Stick Control, then ill do some of that.

thanks a lot.

[green242]

Seems I should just get a DB pedal then....or at least another single to use on a bass pad.


You can get a real cheap one off of ebay for $100.. It won't last forever, but it's only $100... If you think it's good to get the practice, then when you step up to an Iron Cobra, or Eliminator, or DW's... It'll be like heaven.
http://cgi.ebay.com/FREE-S-H-NEW-VEX-PRO-TOURING-DOUBLE-BASS-DRUM-PEDAL-SET_W0QQitemZ200079083200QQihZ010QQcategoryZ41452Q QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Free shipping if you live in the US

[Josiah]

Am talking to Josiah Gary

Ive read it again and I swear, am reading two diff. description for heel up

You are, because there are two different heel up techniques.

Heel up/flat footed. Picking your leg up and dropping it on the pedal, the heel inevitably comes up from the ankle being relaxed and drooping down. The toes stay in contact with the pedal.

Heel Up, the heel always stays up and the motion to move the pedal is done by the ankle, more of a twitching thing. Not much power, but can go every fast.

[sLarkin20]

Yes, it is. However, is it effective practice is the question.


While his book may be popular, his feet are by no means close to the monsters out there...

Of course, if given the choice between practicing by tapping the feet, or getting behind an actual kit with a double pedal, you would always want to practice with the actual kit.

What I should of said I guess, was that say your out somewhere away from your kit for an extended amount of time or something, it certainly wouldn't HURT to practice by just sitting down somewhere with a double-bass book and do some exercises by just tapping with the feet. It would be better than no practice at all.

[Gary Lover]

You are, because there are two different heel up techniques.

Heel up/flat footed. Picking your leg up and dropping it on the pedal, the heel inevitably comes up from the ankle being relaxed and drooping down. The toes stay in contact with the pedal.

Heel Up, the heel always stays up and the motion to move the pedal is done by the ankle, more of a twitching thing. Not much power, but can go every fast.

I am aware of both of these "techniques", but my old teacher taught us very strictly to use a combination of both.

Basically, you need to focus on the ankle motion and do physical exercises to build that muscle and consistancy.

You DO NOT, however, use massive amounts of leg motion. Keep the knees low and avoid any stomping motion. Instead, raise the knees very slightly and do a very subtle slaloming motion (side to side) with your feet. This causes your lower leg to shift sideways a tiny bit, generating the power you need to play double bass, but preserving the ankle dexterity and finesse.

This sounds shady, I am sure. It is not the Tim Waterson technique. It is not the "twitching" motion Derek Roddy and others condone. The slaloming motion with your feet should be exagerated at first, like any new technique, until it is subconcious. If the motion is too big, you are wasting energy, which is the whole reason we are avoiding large leg movements to begin with!

I wish I had a video of this technique, but I hope this gives you guys some idea of what I'm talking about. I have had much success with this way of playing and hope others can learn from it.


Gary :thumb:

[TTTSNB]

^ Derek Roddy doesn't really advocate a twitching motion, instead emphasizing power and accuracy.

[Josiah]

Gary -

As I mentioned earlier. The feet need not worry about injury. So if you learn the different techniques. Then simply move away from that focus and just get the notes out. You will develop whatever technique works best for you, the player.


The human body is pretty smart, if pushed it will find the most efficient way to do something. Since there's no worry of injury with the feet, it's a great place to make use of that adaptability.

[Gary Lover]

Ah, my mistake TTSNB! Sorry, Derek.


Josiah - That is a good point. It does make sense to me, though, to train your feet outright in a technique that is tried and true rather than go through the learning curve of adapting to the new situation. A lot of people end up just stomping away as their 'natural adaptation' to get the notes out, and that is not the best thing.

Gary :thumb:

[TTTSNB]

^ It's cool.

[Josiah]

Ah, my mistake TTSNB! Sorry, Derek.


Josiah - That is a good point. It does make sense to me, though, to train your feet outright in a technique that is tried and true rather than go through the learning curve of adapting to the new situation. A lot of people end up just stomping away as their 'natural adaptation' to get the notes out, and that is not the best thing.

Gary :thumb:

That is true. Very true. And maybe one of the biggest causes for players not progressing.

Things need to be structured in the learning process for maximum benifit. As an instructor, I've told many students. I really don't care how you use your foot - so long as the notes are solid, clean and confident in what they were suposed to be.

Now if that's an issue, we'll look at technique. However I've found simply by slowing down and focusing on producing the note, letting the foot do what it will. Great results come, and when examined what the foot is doing, it's found to be a hybrid of techniques depending on the situation and application.

[Pearldrumguy]

100 bucks for heel-toe?

XD

Wow, I'm sorry, but... I mean... hell... I've got a free lesson with videos on this website itself. And, well, it's not hard. It's heel...toe....heel...toe. Meh, that guy's an idiot for charging you that.


Yea. He said in the description that it was not heel toe but yea I would not recommend anyone get it.

[Damo]

http://www.drum.com.au/lessons/sept06.pdf
Give it a go.

[Damo]

this small muscle of my quads that connects to my hips (I think it's called the rectus femoris) starts to ache. Should this be the case?

Make sure your feet are directly below your knees - It sounds like your may be curving the lower half of your legs into the pedals, which opens the groin area and makes you lift your legs through there. The same would be said about curving your legs out towards the pedals, where the outside of your hips would hurt because of it.

Feet under knees!

[Gary Lover]

That is true. Very true. And maybe one of the biggest causes for players not progressing.

Things need to be structured in the learning process for maximum benifit. As an instructor, I've told many students. I really don't care how you use your foot - so long as the notes are solid, clean and confident in what they were suposed to be.

Now if that's an issue, we'll look at technique. However I've found simply by slowing down and focusing on producing the note, letting the foot do what it will. Great results come, and when examined what the foot is doing, it's found to be a hybrid of techniques depending on the situation and application.

Exactly.

I really believe in structured and focused practice and learning. That's why I love Gary Chaffee's "Patterns" series so much. Although all of the material really could come from earlier works like Stick Control, he presents it in a very concise and logical manner. The series covers such a wide range of topics and will improve you playing tremendously. But, I digress.

Gary :thumb:

[Mr. Grill]

Make sure your feet are directly below your knees - It sounds like your may be curving the lower half of your legs into the pedals, which opens the groin area and makes you lift your legs through there. The same would be said about curving your legs out towards the pedals, where the outside of your hips would hurt because of it.

Feet under knees!
Actually, I find myself having an easier time and having more control if I sit farther back. I play heel up, and although I agree, it doesn't have the most power, it works for me. At fast tempos, I end up using a very small sort of 'rowing' (like a boat) technique because I'm pushing forwards more so than down.

I expect the toe-stop on my pedals (which are Eliminators, just for the record) is necessary for this, don't wanna be smacking the chain.

[Damo]

^ No I dont mean sitting forward or back. Im talking about the bottom half of your legs curving inwards or outwards, not forward or back. Very different situation.