Tapping dexterity/independance excersises

[o b s]

I'm looking for some exercises as specified in the title, especially monotonous ones that I can just repeat endlessly/mindlessly after getting the hang of it while watching tv or when I'm just generally feeling too lazy to think.

Also, a small while back there was a thread with a link to some lessons by someone from this forum (I think), anyone still got that link? If it helps to jog anyones memory, in the thread someone said not to look at any of the sputnik lessons by a specific person.

Thanks.

[crazyguy832]

http://www.cyberfretbass.com

There's a whole series on tapping on there.

[Akira]

How many strings do you have? Just 4?

[EADG]

Hand independence: doesnt exist.

[o b s]

How many strings do you have? Just 4?

i play a 5 string

[crazyguy832]

Hand independence: doesnt exist.
I defy thee! You are lies!

:smash:

[Matt Till]

Independent of...what?

[Akira]

Independent of...what?

Each other.

[PietroCrespi]

Hand independence: doesnt exist.

You are my hero.

[EADG]

I defy thee! You are lies!

:smash:


I'm definetely not lies.


I hate the term "hand independence" for two main reasons:

a) It confuses beginners (and uneccessarily at that)
b) It makes tapping (or piano playing or drumming, or anything with 2+ rhythms at once) seem harder than it actually is



Any exercises or songs that teach so called "hand independence" are actually teaching you how to make a connection between the two (or three or four) rhythms in your mind so you can play them at once.

Connecting the rhythms? Connecting your hands. Sounds like the opposite of hand independence to me.

[EADG]

You are my hero.


I try.

[Akira]

I'm definetely not lies.


I hate the term "hand independence" for two main reasons:

a) It confuses beginners (and uneccessarily at that)
b) It makes tapping (or piano playing or drumming, or anything with 2+ rhythms at once) seem harder than it actually is



Any exercises or songs that teach so called "hand independence" are actually teaching you how to make a connection between the two (or three or four) rhythms in your mind so you can play them at once.

Connecting the rhythms? Connecting your hands. Sounds like the opposite of hand independence to me.

Rep+

EDIT: I have to spread it around.
Either way, great post.

[o b s]

Different words, same meaning. Thats just the term I know so its the one I use.

[Akira]

Different words, same meaning. Thats just the term I know so its the one I use.

Yeah, but it's unnecessarily confusing.

You might check out some books of basic piano etudes. I am running though one now to work on tapping. I am not sure how well they will work on a 5, but you can take a look at some books and see.

[neverender]

I think this is something a lot of people really struggle with at first, I love tapping but my hands always want to do the same rhythm no matter how much i try :P

[EADG]

Different words, same meaning. Thats just the term I know so its the one I use.


I understand that, that's cool. But my point is that the term should be changed.

[EADG]

I think this is something a lot of people really struggle with at first, I love tapping but my hands always want to do the same rhythm no matter how much i try :P

Try tapping beats on a table or desk, that way you don't have to worry about the notes and can concentrate on just the rhythms.

Also it helps to see it on paper (or Powertab or Guitar Pro).

[o b s]

I understand that, that's cool. But my point is that the term should be changed.

I agree its slightly misleading.

[o b s]

Try tapping beats on a table or desk, that way you don't have to worry about the notes and can concentrate on just the rhythms.

Also it helps to see it on paper (or Powertab or Guitar Pro).

I do this ALL DAY at work :lol:. I put my keys in one pocket and my change in the other then hit them with my palm or thumb, I throw in random clicks and if i'm walking somewhere some foot rhythm, I can actually play some pretty sick rhythms now (9 hour days 5 days a week, lots of time to practise). Maybe some time in the future I should mic my pockets up and play them live.

[EADG]

I do this ALL DAY at work :lol:. I put my keys in one pocket and my change in the other then hit them with my palm or thumb, I throw in random clicks and if i'm walking somewhere some foot rhythm, I can actually play some pretty sick rhythms now (9 hour days 5 days a week, lots of time to practise). Maybe some time in the future I should mic my pockets up and play them live.


I do it on my desk at school when I'm bored.


That's funny, I use change in my pocket for a snare and my leg for a bass drum sometimes.

[BassVirtuoso]

Tapping exercises and exercises that separate the right and the left hand are just 2 of the gimmicks and falsehoods in the world of music academia.

[o b s]

Tapping exercises and exercises that separate the right and the left hand are just 2 of the gimmicks and falsehoods in the world of music academia.

I think more people actually went out and practised 'tapping exercises and exercises that separate the right and the left hand' as a result of Berlins list than decided not to :lol:.

[Aerodyne]

It's almost as bad as musicians thinking that practicing music will make them better.

[HaVIC5]

You have a point here, which is that the term hand independence can needlessly confuse people who are taught the term incorrectly, but it cannot be broken down simply to "connecting different rhythms" or connecting the hands. Yes, they are being connected, but at the fundamental level, your brain is partitioning off two separate tasks to be accomplished - play a line with one hand and play a line with the other. You're not thinking of it all as the same thing, you're thinking of what you're playing as two separate things that move connected to each other. It's a subtle difference, but as a pianist and as an experienced tapper I know that when I improvise two lines at once, I'm controlling my hands in two separate rhythms rather than thinking of one unified rhythmic line.

[EADG]

You have a point here, which is that the term hand independence can needlessly confuse people who are taught the term incorrectly, but it cannot be broken down simply to "connecting different rhythms" or connecting the hands. Yes, they are being connected, but at the fundamental level, your brain is partitioning off two separate tasks to be accomplished - play a line with one hand and play a line with the other. You're not thinking of it all as the same thing, you're thinking of what you're playing as two separate things that move connected to each other. It's a subtle difference, but as a pianist and as an experienced tapper I know that when I improvise two lines at once, I'm controlling my hands in two separate rhythms rather than thinking of one unified rhythmic line.


I disagree, I think of it as unified. Even when you're playing a note with one hand and there is a rest in the other, your brain is still thinking "play this with this hand, and this hand doesnt do anything" - see, still connected.

When you play 16ths with one hand and 8ths with the other, your brain still has to break it down to "play the first note together, then hold the left hand while the right hand plays another note" over and over again.

I hope that made sense.



I understand your point, but I still think that your brain breaks it down to see it as one rhythm - whether you know it or not.

Coming from a fellow pianist and an experienced tapper as well.

[peeted]

Arguments like this are pointless, it realy does depend on the learner. I remember spending ages aproching it like eadg suggests and never getting anywere with it, then thinking about the two hands seperatley and finding it much easier. Im shure its the other way round for other people, its not something worth arguing about though.

[EADG]

Arguments like this are pointless, it realy does depend on the learner. I remember spending ages aproching it like eadg suggests and never getting anywere with it, then thinking about the two hands seperatley and finding it much easier. Im shure its the other way round for other people, its not something worth arguing about though.


I wouldn't call it an argument.. more of a discussion.


Arguments in general are pretty pointless, though.

[Duncster]

To get your fingers to work independantly from eachother (or to work together but at different rhythms?) checkout ma lesson http://www.sputnikmusic.com/lesson.php?lessonid=174 This works verrrry good, and it was all I needed to starting playing with three fingers on my left hand, and it helps with tapping as well. I totally ripped it off some website. After that (for much much better lessons) checkout Havic5s tapping lessons in the lesson section.

[neverender]

Try tapping beats on a table or desk, that way you don't have to worry about the notes and can concentrate on just the rhythms.

Also it helps to see it on paper (or Powertab or Guitar Pro).

I'll give that a go thanks... trying it just now doing a pretty slow speed with 2 fingers on the desk on their own then with my other hand trying a faster speed, my first hand just speeds up and follows the second :( It's not something i've really practiced before so not giving up yet but it's kind of frustrating that it just happens :P

[Duncster]

I'll give that a go thanks... trying it just now doing a pretty slow speed with 2 fingers on the desk on their own then with my other hand trying a faster speed, my first hand just speeds up and follows the second :( It's not something i've really practiced before so not giving up yet but it's kind of frustrating that it just happens :P

Checkout the link I posted above your post.

[neverender]

managed to start slowly on #1 and #2 and get them pretty fast after a few tries... number 3 i can do slowly but struggle with speed. both hands are still playing the same speed even in these exercises though?

[Duncster]

managed to start slowly on #1 and #2 and get them pretty fast after a few tries... number 3 i can do slowly but struggle with speed. both hands are still playing the same speed even in these exercises though?

Yeah same speed, they are just to get you comfortable with using different digits on each hand at the same time.

[EADG]

I'll give that a go thanks... trying it just now doing a pretty slow speed with 2 fingers on the desk on their own then with my other hand trying a faster speed, my first hand just speeds up and follows the second :( It's not something i've really practiced before so not giving up yet but it's kind of frustrating that it just happens :P

When you say "faster" do you mean your other hand is actually tapping at a different tempo? If so, that's really hard to do, maybe even impossible in some cases.


Or do you mean like, one hand playing quarters and one doing 8ths and 16ths?

[Akira]

Yeah, playing two different tempos is stupid because that is never really going to happen. Try tapping eighths with one hand and triplets with the other.

[EADG]

Yeah, playing two different tempos is stupid because that is never really going to happen. Try tapping eighths with one hand and triplets with the other.


I'm sure a good tabla player could do it, depending on what the tempos were.



What kind of triplets? I can do half note triplets over quarter notes in 4/4 (3 over 4) but I havn't tried quarter note triplets (6 over 4) yet.

[Akira]

I'm sure a good tabla player could do it, depending on what the tempos were.



What kind of triplets? I can do half note triplets over quarter notes in 4/4 (3 over 4) but I havn't tried quarter note triplets (6 over 4) yet.

I meant eighth note triplets, so 3:2.

[Duncster]

I meant eighth note triplets, so 3:2.
Interesting. I think a better place to start would be 3/4, but 3/2(6/4) could be a new challenge. Something for me to work on at work tonight.

Trying it now and its extremely tough. I gotta be doing 1 a 2 a 3 a 4 a with my left index finger, but with my right I gotta be going 1 triple let 2 trip let 3 trip let 4 trip let. If this is what you mean then that **** is hard.

[Akira]

I can't do it myself, it's just an interesting challenge.

[EADG]

Actually.. I had it all wrong. I was doing 3/2 the whole time.


The one I can't do is 3/4

[HaVIC5]

EADG, how would polyrhythms like 3:2 or 4:3 work together to create a single coordinated rhythm? They're coordinated, but only in the sense that they land on the same downbeat. Otherwise, the hands pretty much have to work independently of each other.

4:3 isn't impossible, but its pretty tough. You have to feel the pulse in one rather than in three in order for it to work when you are first learning how to do it. Otherwise, it will mess with your head. Once you get 4:3, try 5:3. That's about as far as I've gotten. 5:4 really screws with your head.

[EADG]

EADG, how would polyrhythms like 3:2 or 4:3 work together to create a single coordinated rhythm? They're coordinated, but only in the sense that they land on the same downbeat. Otherwise, the hands pretty much have to work independently of each other.





For 3:2, I just think of it as one rhythm played with two hands alternating, and remember that they play at the same time on the 1 and 3.

Never tried 4:3.



I see your point there but I still prefer to find the way the rhythms connect rather than think of it as two separate things.

I still think the term "hand independence" is intimidating and needlessly confusing. If it were named something more "friendly" (sorry for the bad word, but you get what I mean) people wouldn't be so afraid to try it and would probably find it easier. I find a lot of music is mindset - I have trouble doing something if I don't have the confidence that I can do it.


I'm not directing this at you, but I think some people just prefer the term because it makes what they're doing sound harder than it actually is. My 0.02%.

[neverender]

When you say "faster" do you mean your other hand is actually tapping at a different tempo? If so, that's really hard to do, maybe even impossible in some cases.


Or do you mean like, one hand playing quarters and one doing 8ths and 16ths?

err i was trying different temops yeah, I think it could come in useful occasionally!

[HaVIC5]

I still think the term "hand independence" is intimidating and needlessly confusing. If it were named something more "friendly" (sorry for the bad word, but you get what I mean) people wouldn't be so afraid to try it and would probably find it easier. I find a lot of music is mindset - I have trouble doing something if I don't have the confidence that I can do it.


I'm not directing this at you, but I think some people just prefer the term because it makes what they're doing sound harder than it actually is. My 0.02%.

How about "hand coordination"? I only use the term independence because thats what has been used for more than a century as applied to piano.

[EADG]

err i was trying different temops yeah, I think it could come in useful occasionally!


When? I have never heard any piece which required two hands (or two+ instruments) to be played in different tempos.

[EADG]

How about "hand coordination"? I only use the term independence because thats what has been used for more than a century as applied to piano.

I like that term a lot, actually. It sounds a lot less intimidating and just makes more sense.


Sure the term has been used for a long time.. but things change. The bass used to only have 3 strings. How many strings does your bass have? ;)

[HaVIC5]

Too many.

[HaVIC5]

When? I have never heard any piece which required two hands (or two+ instruments) to be played in different tempos.
You obviously haven't heard any modern New Complexity classical music then. Its ridiculous.

[Duncster]

Actually.. I had it all wrong. I was doing 3/2 the whole time.


The one I can't do is 3/4

What? How could anyone possibly find it easier to do 3/2 then 3/4? 3/4 is easy as pie. 3/2 requires an entire different mindset. like 3/4 is just:

t=trip l=let
1 t l 2 t l 3 t l 4
1 t l 2 t l 3 t l 4

This doesnt require too much thought because your only tapping with your left hand 4 times and you can count these four times as "1 trip let 2 trip let..." while your other hand is also counting as "1 trip let 2 trip let..." The only difference between the hands is where on the triplet you tap. While one hand is always on the down beat the other is on the fourth triplet (obviously).
But 3/2.... in 3/2 you have to have one hand tapping on not just the downbeat but the up beat as well, while the other has to fit in to the whacky triplet beats all over the place.

1 t l 2
1 t l 2 t l
Edit: After typing it out I realized it wasn't nearly as hard as I was thinking, but I didn't want to erase the whole post :p

[EADG]

You obviously haven't heard any modern New Complexity classical music then. Its ridiculous.



No I have not.

[EADG]

Too many.



Not enough in my opinion.

[EADG]

What? How could anyone possibly find it easier to do 3/2 then 3/4? 3/4 is easy as pie. 3/2 requires an entire different mindset.



Did I ever say one was easier than the other? I just said I couldn't do 3 and 4 at the same time. The only reason is because I've never done tried it.

I'm going to try it right now and see how it goes.

[EADG]

You're right Duncster


HaVIC if you just picture the rhythms as if they were in 12/8 you will see how they ARE in fact, connected much like an 8:4 (8th notes over quarters) rhythm would be.



3:4
http://i9.tinypic.com/30bcxux.jpg

6:4
http://i18.tinypic.com/29crhat.jpg

[Akira]

But thinking of it like that while you are playing seems pretty impractical.

Adam: Just the term "New Complexity classical music" gives me a headache.

[EADG]

But thinking of it like that while you are playing seems pretty impractical.




How so? It's not that different than breaking down a 4:8 rhythm.


And like most two-handed pieces or phrases, people usually learn the principles of breaking rhythms down before they play two-handed pieces.



If you learn those irregular groupings once, you know them for life, much like how once you learn that two 8ths notes = one quarter.

[HaVIC5]

I dont think of it that way, and I still play it. Does that mean I'm conciously playing a unified rhythm, like you suggest? Besides, how, pray tell, would you subdivide 3:5? 4:5? You can do it, but it becomes a math problem rather than a rhythm. Nobody thinks that way when playing 3:5. You can't, you just have to play quintuplets over triplets. For the sake of simplicity, thats how I play and feel 2:3 and 3:4. It feels a lot more natural that breaking it down and thinking of it as four dotted eighth notes in a triple meter, or how you did it.

[HaVIC5]

Read more about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Complexity

[Matt Till]

You obviously haven't heard any modern New Complexity classical music then. Its ridiculous.

Haha, if that's not the stupidest classification of music I've ever heard...


I agree with EADG. Hand "independence" is impossible and confusing. Hand coordination. That terms makes alot more sense.

And for the record, any rhythm, even "polyrhythms" and what have-you, require no "independence" in any of your limbs. They simply require a different type of coordination. In most cases, it just takes practice and dilligence. It's all in the muscle memory. It's not conscious.

[Duncster]

I dont think of it that way, and I still play it. Does that mean I'm conciously playing a unified rhythm, like you suggest? Besides, how, pray tell, would you subdivide 3:5? 4:5? You can do it, but it becomes a math problem rather than a rhythm. Nobody thinks that way when playing 3:5. You can't, you just have to play quintuplets over triplets. For the sake of simplicity, thats how I play and feel 2:3 and 3:4. It feels a lot more natural that breaking it down and thinking of it as four dotted eighth notes in a triple meter, or how you did it.

You can really play with 2 limbs in 2 different time signatures without breaking it down? That doesn't seem logical. Like I can see your way working when your playing with a drummer, and your only playing one of those time sigs, but the discussion was originally about using 2 different hands in 2 different time signatures. I guess maybe you could if you had a very good understanding of how the rhythms work before ever trying it. But you would think you would have to break it down to at least learn what the polyrhythm is.

I have always approached polyrhythms like a math problem, but I think that will only benefit me when I use them creatively.

[Duncster]

Haha, if that's not the stupidest classification of music I've ever heard...


I agree with EADG. Hand "independence" is impossible and confusing. Hand coordination. That terms makes alot more sense.

And for the record, any rhythm, even "polyrhythms" and what have-you, require no "independence" in any of your limbs. They simply require a different type of coordination. In most cases, it just takes practice and dilligence. It's all in the muscle memory. It's not conscious.

Aside from the fact we are probably just arguing semantics, I disagree. I think that pianists can eventually learn to separate their hands so that they aren't really playing together if you break it down to the note durations. Like one hand is playing solid 16th notes say, while the other is playing something slow and the notes are played with such feeling that they dont fall on to any subdivisions of the 16th notes because it is a different melody and line that isnt closely related.
Its hard to explain what I mean here...

[Akira]

Didn't you just say the opposite things in those two posts?

[Duncster]

Didn't you just say the opposite things in those two posts?

Haha not at all but it definitely looks like that.
In the first post I was basically saying, "you cant play with 2 limbs in 2 time signatures without breaking it down first."
In the second post I wasn't talking about time signatures at all. What I meant was pianists (and I guess some other instrumentalists) can use their hands independantly of eachother when they get to a certain degree, not regarding time signatures but where the note with one of their hands actually falls in regards to the beat its in.... like a pianist could play with such feel that the note is placed in such a weird spot in the measure that it can't actually accurately be portrayed with sheet music...
hard to explain :o

[HaVIC5]

You can really play with 2 limbs in 2 different time signatures without breaking it down? That doesn't seem logical. Like I can see your way working when your playing with a drummer, and your only playing one of those time sigs, but the discussion was originally about using 2 different hands in 2 different time signatures. I guess maybe you could if you had a very good understanding of how the rhythms work before ever trying it. But you would think you would have to break it down to at least learn what the polyrhythm is.

I have always approached polyrhythms like a math problem, but I think that will only benefit me when I use them creatively.
Break 3:5 down for me (I can play it, and havent bothered breaking it down). Better yet, break 7:8 down for me. Indian tabla musicians play that sort of polyrhythm all the time.

[Duncster]

Break 3:5 down for me (I can play it, and havent bothered breaking it down). Better yet, break 7:8 down for me. Indian tabla musicians play that sort of polyrhythm all the time.
3:5
1 q t p l 2 q t p l 3 q t p l
1 q t p l 2 q t p l 3 q t p l

Started to do 7:8 but it got rediculous.
But yeah I guess your points playing. You can really play quintuplets with one hand and triplets with the other? like... consistently? repeating the pattern every 15 notes?

[EADG]

I dont think of it that way, and I still play it. Does that mean I'm conciously playing a unified rhythm, like you suggest? Besides, how, pray tell, would you subdivide 3:5? 4:5? You can do it, but it becomes a math problem rather than a rhythm. Nobody thinks that way when playing 3:5. You can't, you just have to play quintuplets over triplets. For the sake of simplicity, thats how I play and feel 2:3 and 3:4. It feels a lot more natural that breaking it down and thinking of it as four dotted eighth notes in a triple meter, or how you did it.


(Edit: Aren't all rhythms math problems?)


Dunc subdivdes 3:5 in his last post by multiplying both numbers to 15. 4:5 is also definetely possible to break down, since both numbers multiply to 20. It's just basic fractions, really.


I still maintain you can't "just play" complex rhythms like that. Like any rhythm, you break it down first. Even if you don't think you are, I'm sure you do on a subconscious level.

Would it be more natural to figure out how the rhythms relate? I could try to "just play" something like that without breaking it down and it would probably sound really awkward, and the notes would not be equal durations. I'd play something like that a lot more naturally if I knew how it worked.

[EADG]

4:5
1---------2---------3---------4--------
1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + a 4 e + a 5 e + a


2:3
1-----2----
1 + 2 + 3 +


I already did 3:4 earlier in the thread.