Theosophy?

[samariah]

Anyone care to offer their thoughts on this? Im just reading the philosophies and stuff and kinda find it interesting. I saw the word in a post here i think and never heard of it before so...

Theosophy- "wisdom of the divine"

http://www.theosophy-ny.org/

http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/theos/th-selec.htm

http://www.theosophical.ca/

[-1up!-]

"Embracing both the scientific and the religious, Theosophy is a scientific religion and a religious science."

not interested.

[samariah]

ha ha, i guess thats one perspective behind it. what i kinda like about the movement is that its more "think for yourself." it is not a religion.

[spitfirejunky]

not interested.

It's not what you probably think it is.

It seeks to incorporate science into religion, not the other way around.

[samariah]

its not really "religion" in the typical, stereotypical sense either. its more of an acknowledgement of something beyond, a "force", physicality.

[AmericanWeiner]

so it's trying to take credit for the vast majority of chinese philosophy?

[samariah]

i dont know, im kind of a newbie to different philosophies

[PsychoTronn]

god and evolution don't go together because of the time frame and the bible says god made us perfect. evolution shows that we got alot smarter and bigger over a long period of time

[AmericanWeiner]

well god was invented before the bible

[samariah]

God didnt write the bible

[spitfirejunky]

god and evolution don't go together because of the time frame and the bible says god made us perfect. evolution shows that we got alot smarter and bigger over a long period of time

That couldn't have been more irrelevent.

[-1up!-]

Our mission is to make the knowledge of divine wisdom available to whoever wishes to approach it with respect; and to that end you are invited to browse our web page and see how it can be of interest and help to you.

Here's some talk about "divine" wisdom, wtf?

The relation between spiritual and other powers is shown here:

Through Theosophy man's mental and psychic growth will proceed in harmony with his moral improvement.

The order of words in this sentence unmistakably indicates that the moral improvement goes first; otherwise the order of the words would have been inverted. But in any case there is the most ample evidence throughout H. P. Blavatsky's writings that such was her meaning; upon no point is she more insistent. This indeed makes all the difference between Wisdom and false knowledge, or between the use and abuse of faculties. Man's whole life is a contest between right motives and the impulsive forces of selfish desire; and when the crisis comes, and he must choose definitely between these powers, as to which shall rule in the future, there is danger that he will choose wrongly and will make all his faculties subservient to desire. He thus enters upon a path which leads him ever further from the light, and he must either lose his Soul or painfully retrieve his steps. To guard against this possibility, it is essential to have a firm moral basis; or, in other words, to observe those Spiritual laws of nature which underlie all other laws.
And this stinks of moral normativity, talks about very unscientific things such as a Soul, the "light" relative to some path you must choose (saying once again that this theosophy thing is normative and discerns right from wrong; science is not moralistic)

The Spirit in man -- the direct ray of the Universal Spirit -- has at last awakened. Let once man's immortal spirit take possession of the temple of his body, and his own divine humanity will redeem him. The Theosophist must himself be a center of spiritual action. The powers and forces of animal nature can be used by the selfish and revengeful, as much as by the unselfish and all- forgiving; the powers and forces of Spirit lend themselves only to the perfectly pure in heart -- and this is DIVINE MAGIC.
(...)
The Theosophical Society will permeate the great mass of intelligent people with its noble ideals. The ethics of Theosophy are the essence and cream of the world's ethics. Theosophy alone can eradicate the selfishness ingrained in Western nations.
(...)
1- The Word 'Theosophy" means Divine Wisdom or Wisdom of the Gods. It is the Greek equivalent of a Sanskrit word 'Brahamavidya', which could be translated as God-wisdom or God-knowledge. Under this name its existence was recognised in the East long before the Christian era. It is very ancient indeed.

So, from what I get, this Theosophical movement is some new age critic of Western world's contemporary utilitarianism, selfishness and consumerism, and somehow hopes to save us all by seeking "truth" (oh a noble ideal indeed) through a moralistic imbroglio of religion, science and philosophy (which are to be studied on a comparative basis, no less!)

Not interested.

[Petros]

It sounds like Neo-Platonism to me -- a quasi-philosophical-religious movement of Ancient Roman times -- brought into the modern era.

[thickasabrick]

I'm interested in this stuff.

Does anyone notice that most of the religions/philosophies that try to approach metaphysical questions using logic seem to always point to some sort of dialectical force behind everything?

I mean, not all philosophies and religions are dialectical, but tons and tons are.

[AmericanWeiner]

i've noticed that..but my general philosophy is quite the opposite

[thickasabrick]

I'm interested in hearing some of the main points of your philosophy AW.

[AmericanWeiner]

I've never been able to really vocalize them in a satisfying way, which I know sounds like a cop-out, but it's the truth.

I guess at the very root of it is that nature is an all-encompassing idea, that this natural force is neither sentient nor unsentient, as sentience is an artifact of nature, and that there is no possible way of deviating from the natural path, which has been referred to has the Tao in Chinese philosophy. However, it isn't Taoism, because Taoism focuses on an internal harmony to bring external harmony to the world, where my particular ideas would say that there is no possible way for anything to be inharmonious.

Secondly, all humans are equal within the way. That implies that no person has an upper hand or better understanding of the way than any other person and all philosophies and religions are artifacts of the way. Within each of those philosophies, the "way" translates down into the particularly God and is thus omnipotent (not omnibenevolent in my particular views as benevolence is an artifact of humanity), and omniscient.

Thirdly, there is no strive for appeasal in the philosophy and it does not matter in a cosmological sense whether you serve humanity or destroy it. All goals and intentions are and should remain Earthly, and only by understanding that can we find personal peace. (This is one area where it does resemble Taoism).

Finally, the way is not something that we serve, it is something that we can learn from (in my opinion, which I view as separate from the philosophy as a whole. There is a dichotomy in what I try to view as external and internal philosophy).

[Kaleid]

my particular ideas would say that there is no possible way for anything to be inharmonious
Surely you would allow chaos theory?
Perhaps the reason that we are so unsatified with present philosophy is that we expect it to be too rational. Taoism is surely just a form of self-comfort i.e. I convince myself that all is OK, therefore it will be. Maybe we can only be satisfied if we convince ourselves of the brutal realities

[AmericanWeiner]

I said there is no possible way. Chaos theory may state that some things exceed the boundaries of human thought, but that doesn't mean it's unnatural.

The point is, if you convince yourself that everything is alright, then it is. There is nothing more to it. Good luck with that, though.

[Kaleid]

Some would argue that human thought determined what was natural, but I should emphasise that it doesn't include me :)
When you say our goals and intentions should remain earthly, I'm confused. Do you mean they should serve humanity or some greater good? And isn't that 'personal peace' proof that true altruism doesn't exist?

[AmericanWeiner]

Some would argue that human thought determined what was natural, but I should emphasise that it doesn't include me :)
When you say our goals and intentions should remain earthly, I'm confused. Do you mean they should serve humanity or some greater good? And isn't that 'personal peace' proof that true altruism doesn't exist?

Human thought can't comprehend everything, and everything is natural within my philosophy.

When I say our goals and intentions should remain Earthly, I'm responding to the general purpose of religion to prepare people for the afterlife: our goal in many religions is to appease the gods or be moral so as to attain eternal life. In my philosophy, we are just machines that process energy, and our thoughts and emotions happen to be part of that process. When we die, the machine breaks down and the process no longer occurs. Thus, we are earthly beings and should have earthly goals.

You might serve humanity if you wanted. However, you might kill babies if you want. There is no judgement on a cosmological scale, though those within "the system" are free to see you as they please.

Of course altruism exists. If a person wants better for others, that is a worldly goal.

[thickasabrick]

Mmkay fair enough. I'm sort of the opposite of you.

I think there are two basic opposing forces in the universe, I like to use the terms Spirit and Matter because they are popular terms in dialectical philosophies.

I'm not sure how it all started, some initial imbalance between those two forces caused a universal imbalance, possibly a "big bang" type of thing. I think the manifestation and evolution of nature is simply an attempt to regain this balance.

Anyone sorta agree? I could type of pages and pages going more indepth of my philosophy, but I don't have time now.

[AmericanWeiner]

I can see where you're going and it's not terribly opposite as it does follow the ideas of chinese philosophies and the yin and yang dichotomy

my philosophy simply focuses on the gestalt of the yin and yang whole versus the division of it

[Kaleid]

When we die, the machine breaks down and the process no longer occurs. Thus, we are earthly beings and should have earthly goals
Sorry, but I don't buy it. It'd be useless in the long run. I'm not altogether a believer in 'Heaven', but I certainly believe in an afterlife, that our 'earthly phase' prepares us for. Otherwise, logically (human, divine or otherwise), what would be the point?
Of course altruism exists. If a person wants better for others, that is a worldly goal
We help people Because WE want to; because otherwise, WE'D feel bad, or maybe WE'D go to 'hell'. Sound real caring, help the helpless, but always remain ultimately selfish. I reckon it's just the fatal flaw in human nature

[AmericanWeiner]

Sorry, but I don't buy it. It'd be useless in the long run. I'm not altogether a believer in 'Heaven', but I certainly believe in an afterlife, that our 'earthly phase' prepares us for. Otherwise, logically (human, divine or otherwise), what would be the point?

Well, that's where we differ. You have no idea better than I do, though, so we're free to speculate. If there is an afterlife, I'm wrong. However, I don't account for one because I don't need one. There is no divine purpose for my life. My human purpose is that I am here and seek to experience life.


We help people Because WE want to; because otherwise, WE'D feel bad, or maybe WE'D go to 'hell'. Sound real caring, help the helpless, but always remain ultimately selfish. I reckon it's just the fatal flaw in human nature

I've never experienced this particular idea. When I help others, it's because I have something to offer and I have intrinsic motivation in doing so. I ENJOY helping others. I have no need for external motivation or negative reinforcement.

Either way, it doesn't matter whether you help people or not.

[Kaleid]

You have no idea better than I do, though
I totally agree. Good to know there's others as unsure as I am :)
I ENJOY helping others
That's my only qualm. Cynical as I am, I define that as a contradiction to altruism. But then, I'm just bitter ;)
Maybe it's just built into us? But by what or whom? Wow, it could go on and on...

[AmericanWeiner]

happiness can be infectious. I'm sure it's some sort of pack instinct but I doubt there's ever been a study on it

[samariah]

"We help people Because WE want to; because otherwise, WE'D feel bad, or maybe WE'D go to 'hell'. Sound real caring, help the helpless, but always remain ultimately selfish. I reckon it's just the fatal flaw in human nature"


yea ive thought about that a good bit and ive come to conclusion that that is why one must do good for others even when they don't want to. show love, go out of your way, even when you have no inclination.just make that concious choice. thats kinda how i operate. i dont really think about what it is gonna "earn"me. i honestly just want to show love to people because i think that is the "ultimate" thing. and even when im in a bad mood, etc and dont feel like it, i do so for others good. idk.

[samariah]

for me it doesn't depend on emotions, how "benevolent" one is feeling. its about choice.

[Kaleid]

But you could be really pedantic and say that 'choice' was a selfish desire. It depends how far you want to nitpick I suppose. I dunno :confused:

[lunchforthesky]

If God is involved im not interested unless of course they'e discovered some miraculous evidence proving his existence.

[lightningmetal666]

"We help people Because WE want to; because otherwise, WE'D feel bad, or maybe WE'D go to 'hell'. Sound real caring, help the helpless, but always remain ultimately selfish. I reckon it's just the fatal flaw in human nature"


yea ive thought about that a good bit and ive come to conclusion that that is why one must do good for others even when they don't want to. show love, go out of your way, even when you have no inclination.just make that concious choice. thats kinda how i operate. i dont really think about what it is gonna "earn"me. i honestly just want to show love to people because i think that is the "ultimate" thing. and even when im in a bad mood, etc and dont feel like it, i do so for others good. idk.


Something that I do to remind myself about helping others without thinking of myself:

I have read Ecclesiastes (a great and intelligent book) from the bible where Solomon himself questions the very point of existence. A good example he points out is that a man is born, raised to learn a trade, works his whole life to earn a living, enjoys maybe a few years of rest (retirement) and then all that he works for he cannot take with him when he dies. Why does a man get married when his wife cannot go with him when dies?

After questioning all of this, he comes to a simple conclusion:
A life without God is pointless and meaningless. We do these things because God asks us to. We help others because we are to build one another up, not tear each other down.

[lunchforthesky]

The man smacks of age in which he was writing.

Any elightened person can see that the chance of someone managing to pick the correct religion (assuming there is one) is phenomenally slim. We should give the same likelyhood of sucess to each religion seen as they are all supported by the same amount of evidence (none).

So the chance of me picking the correct religion out of thouands and thousands of deviations is ridiculously slim and hence we are almost 99.9999 certain to be wasting our lives according to Ecclesiastes anyway, so why enter the race at all and just live by what you feel is best?

Of course God could be indifferent to your choice in theory, but if he indeed cares what we do with our lives then I doubt he would be impressed with say Polytheism (Unless there is multiple Gods) and in order to follow a religion we have to beleive in its doctrine and thus believe it when Jesus or Mohammed says theirs is the one true faith. Therefore you cannot please God by picking a religion unless yours is the correct one which it is damn impossible to know it is. However if we take the view God is indifferent to our religion or very easily pleased then religion becomes irellevant in the equation.