Racism in America

[Swill_Merchant]

I am sure this subject is in the back of a lot of peoples minds. Is there still a huge foundation of racism in America? Why is it o.k. for black people to make fun of white people and not the other way around (speaking in generalities)? Could we abolish racism if we are always politically correct, and try not to offend all but one group of people?
Any other thoughts on this topic are welcome, and of course your opinion will be valued.

[Apollyon]

I am sure this subject is in the back of a lot of peoples minds. Is there still a huge foundation of racism in America?

Yes, because the drive for cultural preservation among immigrants prevents peaceful and complete integration into American society, so it's met with disdain and a drive to either assimilate said immigrants or remove them.

Why is it o.k. for black people to make fun of white people and not the other way around (speaking in generalities)?

Because the stiff backhand of political correctness swings in a biased fashion and does nothing but promote reverse racism and the promotion of degradation of the majority as a means of compensating for the insecurities of the minority.

Could we abolish racism if we are always politically correct, and try not to offend all but one group of people?

No.

Any other thoughts on this topic are welcome, and of course your opinion will be valued.

k.

[ringworm]

I see most racism gone, but some still hold onto the "crutch" that most "ism's" are.

Take a look at the Duke Rape case for a prefect example of who is really keeping racism alive.

Al Sharpton, J Jackson & others of the sort.

No charges, no evidence, her friend at the party denies any activity, multiple statement changes were made by the alleged "victim" who made several strange decisions after she alledged she was raped, but it was a rich White College & a Black stripper, so of course the case carries on… :/

[lunchforthesky]

If you want to see racism in America just ask 99% of them about Muslims.

[Mr. Ron]

I don't think it's that bad.

[DBoons Ghost]

I don't mind black comedians making fun of white folks. It's funny.

[lunchforthesky]

I don't think it's that bad.

Maybe not but its bad, its getting bad here too, especially amongst the working class.

[Mr. Ron]

Maybe not but its bad.

I just think various races are more accepted now a days.

[ringworm]

If you want to see racism in America just ask 99% of them about Muslims.


Been over here much?

Did you see the last elections?

ok then

[lunchforthesky]

Been to America four times, Canada three :)

[ringworm]

an expert you are then :)

[lunchforthesky]

I know more about American politics than most Americans.

[Electronic Wolf]

I think that for the most part racism is gone. But I live in an area that's really a mix of people, so I don't know what it's like in areas that are mostly one race.

[Apollyon]

I think that for the most part racism is gone. But I live in an area that's really a mix of people, so I don't know what it's like in areas that are mostly one race.

Outside of the suburbs, race is a very big issue. Especially in low-income communities where it always seems as if one ethnicity is trying to gain financial and political dominance over the others. In Florida it's a power struggle between blacks and Mexicans, here in my town it's kind of a free-for-all.

[ringworm]

I know more about American politics than most Americans.
yeah, the BBC is a good source :)

seriously, any educated person could easily study another countries Politics, but to ASSume you know how bad racism or some other cultural stat is, IS a pretty good leap, but whatever :)

[James Van Halen]

Could we abolish racism if we are always politically correct, and try not to offend all but one group of people?
No. We'll abolish racism if we stop being politically correct about it, and we make fun of every race equally. My best friend is Black and he makes up more '******' jokes than anyone i've ever met.

[lunchforthesky]

yeah, the BBC is a good source :)

seriously, any educated person could easily study another countries Politics, but to ASSume you know how bad racism or some other cultural stat is, IS a pretty good leap, but whatever :)

While obviously first hand evidenc eisnt their. Its clear there is a lot of anti-Islamic sentiment around.

[Electronic Wolf]

No. We'll abolish racism if we stop being politically correct about it, and we make fun of every race equally. My best friend is Black and he makes up more '******' jokes than anyone i've ever met.

But it's not the same when it comes from someone outside of that group.

[PsychoTronn]

black people just opening admit they are racist agianst whites

[Zesty Mordant]

black people just opening admit they are racist agianst whites

I have no idea what this says.

[Smokey D]

yeah, the BBC is a good source :)

It's as good as virtually anything else you're going to get.

[Cain]

It depends. If you're talking about the racism which is manifested in obviously institutional ways designed to create enforced inequality based on a pseudo-scientific view of racial superiority, such as local government-sanctioned segregation, media presentations and generalized discriminatory acts of either violence or defamation that are tolerated despite there being no factual basis for perpetrating them, I would argue that it has mostly died out except for fringe sects of society.

On the other hand, if you're talking about the racism that makes white people lock their car doors because they think they might get robbed while traveling through a predominantly black urban area (where they wouldn't in a predominantly white suburban area), or the racism that makes black people instantly assume that all white people are by their nature priveleged and condescending and thus superior in attitude, then racism is everywhere and is close to never, ever dying out in my lifetime.

EDIT: And political correctness will never solve anything because it requires one to not deal with a complicated truth about society in order to convey a false sense of respect and "fairness."

[loathed]

It depends. If you're talking about the racism which is manifested in obviously institutional ways designed to create enforced inequality based on a pseudo-scientific view of racial superiority, such as local government-sanctioned segregation, media presentations and generalized discriminatory acts of either violence or defamation that are tolerated despite there being no factual basis for perpetrating them, I would argue that it has mostly died out except for fringe sects of society.

On the other hand, if you're talking about the racism that makes white people lock their car doors because they think they might get robbed while traveling through a predominantly black urban area (where they wouldn't in a predominantly white suburban area), or the racism that makes black people instantly assume that all white people are by their nature priveleged and condescending and thus superior in attitude, then racism is everywhere and is close to never, ever dying out in my lifetime.

we have a winner...qft.

[Amit]

If you want to see racism in America just ask 99% of them about Muslims.

so true :(

[Cain]

so true :(

Well, Muslims....I mean, maybe if you were talking about Arab Muslims. I don't know if a Croatian Muslim would have the same effect.

Eh, it might, though. In all fairness, it's just American ignorance that just causes that 99 percent to fail to distinguish between Muslim sects such Wahabbism, which is the most intolerant form practiced by Saudi Arabia and many of the anti-American terrorist groups. And Arab Muslim society on the whole is remarkably intolerant and militant. I'm not saying we've helped matters, but once again, it's not like American wariness of Islam isn't based off of nothing.

This is, of course, why discrimination based on such generalized notions of a group of people one has little experience with in person will never die out. Same goes for them, too.

[StrawberryFieldsForever]

Where I live a lot of the racism is towards Native peoples.

Unfortunately there's a good reason for it. Native people are truly lazy, dirty drunks who think the government should completely look after them. The parents don't work and live off of welfare cheques, which often unfortunately leads their kids to find their own free entertainment, which usually means stealing cars, robbing gas stations, and drinking in the middle of downtown constantly, making it a very frightening place to be.

If anywhere in the states is anything like that, then there's a good reason for racism, for lack of a better term. It's not racist if it's true.

And P.S. the muslims here are incredibly ignorant to the rest of society. I really don't get how they leave their home country to get away from a certain lifestyle and just end up living the same way back here.

[Amit]

Well, Muslims....I mean, maybe if you were talking about Arab Muslims. I don't know if a Croatian Muslim would have the same effect.

brown muslims

and brown skin in general

scare white america to little bits

[CrossTheBreeze]

I don't think it's that bad.
It really isn't.

Definately not as bad as some people on T.V. would like you to think.

[RNR]

so true :(

They brought it upon themselves by not loving Jews and you know it.

[CrossTheBreeze]

brown muslims

and brown skin in general

scare white america to little bits
yea... now that I think about it brown arab looking people are getting picked on alot now a days.

[lunchforthesky]

Where I live a lot of the racism is towards Native peoples.

Unfortunately there's a good reason for it. Native people are truly lazy, dirty drunks who think the government should completely look after them. The parents don't work and live off of welfare cheques, which often unfortunately leads their kids to find their own free entertainment, which usually means stealing cars, robbing gas stations, and drinking in the middle of downtown constantly, making it a very frightening place to be.

If anywhere in the states is anything like that, then there's a good reason for racism, for lack of a better term. It's not racist if it's true.

And P.S. the muslims here are incredibly ignorant to the rest of society. I really don't get how they leave their home country to get away from a certain lifestyle and just end up living the same way back here.

That post was a joke right?

[ringworm]

brown muslims

and brown skin in general

scare white america to little bits

oh man, I know thats just for trolling us, but that was pretty funny

Atman likes to think when he walks down the street, white people are suspiscious of him :)

[Zesty Mordant]

black people just opening admit they are racist agianst whites

no seriously, grammatically this sentence makes no sense.

[italic zero]

i think the gerund should be an adverb

[Amit]

oh man, I know thats just for trolling us, but that was pretty funny

it's true tbh

[Electronic Wolf]

That post was a joke right?

I was going to ask the same question.

[Iskandar]

i think the gerund should be an adverb
I think you're correct.

[CrossTheBreeze]

That post was a joke right?

jesus, I hope so.

[Alpepiman]

It is very racist in America in the fact that there is College funds for Blacks, Hispanics, American Indians, and others, while there is not a United Fund for Whites. I guess it just makes me sick how there are poor students in every race, while the blacks and hispanics will have an advantage.

Also Illegal immigration is wrong, and anyone that supports it is Un-American or uneducated.

[Smokey D]

Also Illegal immigration is wrong, and anyone that supports it is Un-American or uneducated.

Blame Walmart.

It is very racist in America in the fact that there is College funds for Blacks, Hispanics, American Indians, and others, while there is not a United Fund for Whites. I guess it just makes me sick how there are poor students in every race, while the blacks and hispanics will have an advantage.

Oh, there's plenty of funds for white folk. They're called legacy scholarships.

[Amit]

It is very racist in America in the fact that there is College funds for Blacks, Hispanics, American Indians, and others, while there is not a United Fund for Whites.

since when have whites been considered a race? hahahahah

i know plenty of first generation polish, french, and all other kinds of "white" people who culturally share absolutely nothing in common with german or irish americans who have been here for over a century or even the self-described american "mutts" of mixed european descent

hardly sounds like the situation for blacks, hispanics, and native americans

and please keep your mouth shut if you don't know anything about the topic

Results 1 - 10 of about 1,190,000 for irish scholarship. (0.23 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 985,000 for polish scholarship. (0.29 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 987,000 for scottish scholarship. (0.16 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 1,890,000 for german scholarship. (0.17 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 3,250,000 for french scholarship. (0.10 seconds)

I guess it just makes me sick how there are poor students in every race, while the blacks and hispanics will have an advantage.

if you knew any better, the condition of inner city public schools should be making you sick instead

[Smokey D]

since when have whites been considered a race? hahahahah

It's not so much that they weren't considered a race, but that the idea of race itself has become outmoded. There is no point dividing people on their skin colour when there are far better reasons for differentiation (such as nationality).


hardly sounds like the situation for blacks, hispanics, and native americans


Well, Africans are as culturally separate from one another as Europeans. I suppose you mean blacks as specifically referring to the descendants of America's slave population.

[Iskandar]

There is no point dividing people on their skin colour when there are far better reasons for differentiation (such as nationality).That's soon to be outmoded as well, and that's not even Marxist hokum.

[Smokey D]

I don't know if I'd agree entirely. Nationality is becoming less important, but I think people will always find common links which bind them and I can't see a time when a shared language and understanding of history will not play a major role in this.

[Alpepiman]

Oh and like loads black people know where they came from?

With the UNCF it's for negros, people whose skin is black, while they obviously don't have a College fund for people whose skin is white.



UNCF is not the equivalent of Irish College funds, or any other specific European country funds.

[Smokey D]

Oh and like loads black people know where they came from?

With the UNCF it's for negros, people whose skin is black, while they obviously don't have a College fund for people whose skin is white.



UNCF is not the equivalent of Irish College funds, or any other specific European country funds.

When we say black in reference to African Americans, we are talking about a group whose original cultural distinctions and identities were utterly destroyed by the experience of slavery and who have therefore had to recreate a culture based on their experiences in America. This equates closely enough to a nationality.

[Alpepiman]

Not all blacks in America are descendants of slaves.

And why is there is assumption that all blacks in early America were even slaves?

[Iskandar]

I don't know if I'd agree entirely. Nationality is becoming less important, but I think people will always find common links which bind them and I can't see a time when a shared language and understanding of history will not play a major role in this.Language is in a process of assimilation. Mainstream linguistics predicts that all but 10% of the world's languages will be extinct by the next century, largely speeded by the advent of the Internet and related technology.

I can easily see English eventually becoming the global lingua franca (unfortunately since it's so difficult to learn). Heavyweights such as Spanish, Arabic and Mandarin will still be important, but subordinate.

[Smokey D]

Not all blacks in America are descendants of slaves.

The majority is so overwhelming we can pretty safely ignore the minority.

And why is there is assumption that all blacks in early America were even slaves?[/QUOTE]

Because the only reason they could get to the US is via slavery. They certainly weren't participants in their own vibrant African cultures.


Language is in a process of assimilation. Mainstream linguistics predicts that all but 10% of the world's languages will be extinct by the next century, largely speeded by the advent of the Internet and related technology.

While this is true, we should remember that places like Papua New Guinea have like 900 languages, which represents a significant proportion of the world's total, even if they are only spoken by some 500 people each.


I can easily see English eventually becoming the global lingua franca (unfortunately since it's so difficult to learn). Heavyweights such as Spanish, Arabic and Mandarin will still be important, but subordinate.

English is the easiest out of all the major (top 5) world languages to learn.

But anyway, language is only a part of the nationality equation.

[Iskandar]

While this is true, we should remember that places like Papua New Guinea have like 900 languages, which represents a significant proportion of the world's total, even if they are only spoken by some 500 people each.
It's precisely minority languages like that which are endangered.
English is the easiest out of all the major (top 5) world languages to learn.
Whoa, how do you figure that? Its convulted orthography and freakishly irregular grammar are truly frightening.
But anyway, language is only a part of the nationality equation.But an extremely important one. Some European nations are extremely similar in culture but significantly differ only in language.

Culture is also becoming globalized.

[Smokey D]

It's precisely minority languages like that which are endangered.

The destruction of these languages, as much as we should try and prevent it, will not have a large scale effect on the durability of the concept of nationhood. They are not significant enough players in the world stage.

Whoa, how do you figure that? Its convulted orthography and freakishly irregular grammar are truly frightening.

Have you looked at Russian, Chinese or Arabic recently? Our grammar is remarkably simple and while it does have minor irregularities, they are usually things like hard and soft sound changes, not fundamentals like case or gender.

But an extremely important one. Some European nations are extremely similar in culture but significantly differ only in language.

You can be assured English won't become the lingua franca of Europe in the next 100 years.


Culture is also becoming globalized.

Of course, but differences persist and I can't see a world where they won't.

[Give me Beer]

Whoa, how do you figure that? Its convulted orthography and freakishly irregular grammar are truly frightening.

English is pretty easy to learn. It doesn't have many difficult conjugations and it has an "anything goes" grammar. However, I have my doubts about it staying the "lingua franca". Do remember that there have been other lingua franca's and that nobody is going to give up their own language for English. In fact, I've been noticing a little backlash against the omnipresence of English.

But an extremely important one. Some European nations are extremely similar in culture but significantly differ only in language.

Culture is also becoming globalized.

Heh, and just which European nations are "extremely similar"? As for culture becoming globalized... eh, not as much as you might think.

[Amit]

It's not so much that they weren't considered a race, but that the idea of race itself has become outmoded. There is no point dividing people on their skin colour when there are far better reasons for differentiation (such as nationality).

agreed

[Iskandar]

However, I have my doubts about it staying the "lingua franca". Do remember that there have been other lingua franca's and that nobody is going to give up their own language for English. In fact, I've been noticing a little backlash against the omnipresence of English.
As long as America and other English-speaking Western nations retain their economic and cultural hegemony, it will. Not to mention the Internet.
Heh, and just which European nations are "extremely similar"? As for culture becoming globalized... eh, not as much as you might think.
What striking differences would a foreigner notice between Norway and Sweden?
Have you looked at Russian, Chinese or Arabic recently? Our grammar is remarkably simple and while it does have minor irregularities, they are usually things like hard and soft sound changes, not fundamentals like case or gender.
Russian with its almost totally phonemic orthography, Chinese with its simple and flexible syntax and Arabic with its standardized written forms based on classical grammarians? They are all superior to English in certain aspects, just to remind you.

Not that they're necessarily easier. My point was originally that English is difficult, not that it's incredibly more difficult than other major languages.

It has been estimated that an adult would need approximately seven years to approach mastery of English, seven months for Esperanto and 70 days for Basic English. (Curious how that worked out.)

[Joey Hoser]

I think racism has recinded greatly in a vast majority of people, save obvious cases.

What still appears to exist to me is subconcious discrimination though. Black guy and a white guy apply for the same job from a white employer with the same creditials, the white guy will probobly get it. I believe in most cases it wouldn't be a blatent "Well this guy's white so I'll take him" train of thought, but a more subconcious feeling of "I'll get along with this guy better".

[Give me Beer]

As long as America and other English-speaking Western nations retain their economic and cultural hegemony, it will. Not to mention the Internet.

Exactly, as long as, which might not be as long as you think. :) Also, the internet is more than just "English". I know for a fact that people in Latin America have little contact with the English part of the internet and you can use it perfectly without going on English sites.

What striking differences would a foreigner notice between Norway and Sweden?

Hrm, having not been there, nor knowing much about them, I wouldn't be able to say. I'm sure there's some striking differences though, especially since they don't seem to get along very well. It used to be one country by the way, but apparently that didn't work out very well. However, if You wanted to compare say, France vs. Spain vs. Germany vs. Belgium vs. Holland vs. England vs. Poland vs. Hungary vs. Italy then I could name dozens.

Hell, let's take Flanders vs. Holland. We speak the same language but we definitely have our own different cultures and cultural attitudes.

Russian with its almost totally phonemic orthography, Chinese with its simple and flexible syntax and Arabic with its standardized written forms based on classical grammarians? They are all superior to English in certain aspects, just to remind you.

Not that they're necessarily easier. My point was originally that English is difficult, not that it's incredibly more difficult than other major languages.

It has been estimated that an adult would need approximately seven years to approach mastery of English, seven months for Esperanto and 70 days for Basic English. (Curious how that worked out.)

Thanks to the English cultural hegmoney it's suprisingly easy to learn. Most people here in Flanders speak better English than French, even though French is mandatory from 8 'till 18 in school and it's not hard to come into contact with French culture. :0

[the_green_bastard]

I am sure this subject is in the back of a lot of peoples minds. Is there still a huge foundation of racism in America? Why is it o.k. for black people to make fun of white people and not the other way around (speaking in generalities)? Could we abolish racism if we are always politically correct, and try not to offend all but one group of people?
Any other thoughts on this topic are welcome, and of course your opinion will be valued.

Yes, there is a substancial foundation of racism in contemporary America. That being said, you can't abolish a concept. You can only abolish laws. To try and "ban" racism would be to pass thoughtcrime into law. Yes, it is still Orwellian to ban "bad" thoughts. Social issues cannot be dealt with with a cudgel. That would only turn us into Stalinist Russia - the only country in history in which a single human being became the leading cause of death of a nation.

[pedro durruti]

I think that the subconscious racism that persists in America and other nations is more about class, and in many places to be black is to also be a varying degree of poor. Your typical middle class American would react in the same fearful manner walking through a poor black neighborhood (or one with the illusion of "poor") as they would walking through a poor white or hispanic neighborhood.

[Iskandar]

Exactly, as long as, which might not be as long as you think. :) Also, the internet is more than just "English". I know for a fact that people in Latin America have little contact with the English part of the internet and you can use it perfectly without going on English sites.

Hrm, having not been there, nor knowing much about them, I wouldn't be able to say. I'm sure there's some striking differences though, especially since they don't seem to get along very well. It used to be one country by the way, but apparently that didn't work out very well. However, if You wanted to compare say, France vs. Spain vs. Germany vs. Belgium vs. Holland vs. England vs. Poland vs. Hungary vs. Italy then I could name dozens.

Hell, let's take Flanders vs. Holland. We speak the same language but we definitely have our own different cultures and cultural attitudes.

Thanks to the English cultural hegmoney it's suprisingly easy to learn. Most people here in Flanders speak better English than French, even though French is mandatory from 8 'till 18 in school and it's not hard to come into contact with French culture. :0
Very interesting. I wasn't aware of a lot of that.

Norway and Sweden are very similar these days. They're both social-democratic welfare states, their languages are almost mutually intelligible (and with Danish too I think), their general attitude towards society, religion etc...

[Electronic Wolf]

There has been a lot of talk of race-related crimes committed in Los Angeles recently, but it's really only between blacks and Latinos. I forgot the name of the gang that's like mostly to blame for the recent increase in that type of violence, but their tag is NK, which stands for "****** Killer."

It's pretty disgusting.

[Smokey D]

Russian with its almost totally phonemic orthography, Chinese with its simple and flexible syntax and Arabic with its standardized written forms based on classical grammarians?

Orthography is the only thing that's hard in English, really, and that's not particuarly important. When foreigners and children make grammatical mistakes, they're usually things like 'I drived to the shops' instead of 'I drove'. For the most part, it's not like we have a hard time figuring it out. Russian and Arabic in particular has a set of cases, meaning a minor change in inflection can change the whole meaning of the word or sentence. Chinese is renouned for its homophones and difficult pronounciation, let alone it's vast alphabet. You can't complain about English orthography and ignore the fact that there's something like 50 000 charactes in Chinese.

They are all superior to English in certain aspects, just to remind you.

I don't really see what this has to do with anything or where I even suggested otherwise, but whatever.

Not that they're necessarily easier. My point was originally that English is difficult, not that it's incredibly more difficult than other major languages.

Mmm, but when it comes down to the 5 most spoken languages, English is pretty easy.

It has been estimated that an adult would need approximately seven years to approach mastery of English, seven months for Esperanto and 70 days for Basic English. (Curious how that worked out.)

Well, Chinese and Arabic are supposed to require more than 2200 hours of learning to achieve professional competency in reading and writing, Russian 1100 hours and Western European languages somewhere between 550 and 600.

[shaqadelic]

I am exposed to Arabic, Mandarin and English, the latter is still more difficult.

English is easier to pick up but once you want to express more detailed ideas or complicated thoughts, it becomes a nightmare.

[Smokey D]

Not according to the CIA.

English is very easy to make yourself understood in, but reasonably difficult to speak perfectly.

[nekotjie]

if you want to see racism, read up about apartheid in south africa, if you have time. i myself am from south africa, and this has been long before my time, but it still affects us.

racism will always be part of our living. it's a natural cycle. people can try as hard as they want to rid the world of racism, but there will always people looking down at others, and putting themselves above others just because they're not the same race.

[Amit]

I am exposed to Arabic, Mandarin and English, the latter is still more difficult.

English is easier to pick up but once you want to express more detailed ideas or complicated thoughts, it becomes a nightmare.

lol what

[Smokey D]

if you want to see racism, read up about apartheid in south africa, if you have time. i myself am from south africa, and this has been long before my time, but it still affects us.

Well, the appallingness of apartheid doesn't really affect the appallingness of racism elsewhere.

racism will always be part of our living. it's a natural cycle. people can try as hard as they want to rid the world of racism, but there will always people looking down at others, and putting themselves above others just because they're not the same race.

This is a silly view to take. First of all, there is no cycle to racism. Secondly, it's only always going to be an issue if people keep on saying it's always going to be an issue and don't do anything to stop it.

[angry armadillo]

English is very easy to make yourself understood in, but reasonably difficult to speak perfectly.
That's the same for any language really, i can speak bits and bobs of probably just over half a dozen european languages, but i can only really speak English and German with any degree of accuracy.

[Smokey D]

I think English is probably easier than most people give it credit for for making yourself understood. Mistakes don't tend to critically undermine the meaning of a sentence. In languages with cases in particular and homophonic tenses to a lesser extent, this is not always the case.

[RNR]

I think English is probably easier than most people give it credit for for making yourself understood. Mistakes don't tend to critically undermine the meaning of a sentence. In languages with cases in particular and homophonic tenses to a lesser extent, this is not always the case.

And immigrants abuse this to no end :p.

[shaqadelic]

English is very easy to make yourself understood in, but reasonably difficult to speak perfectly.

Yeah. However, making yourself understood is hardly enough, this is a severe problem that graduates from South East Asia face when finding jobs from foreign employers. They can handle basic English but when they need to convey and explain ideas, they are done for.

lol what

What is so funny? I am talking of a problem that many non native English speakers face.

Mistakes don't tend to critically undermine the meaning of a sentence. In languages with cases in particular and homophonic tenses to a lesser extent, this is not always the case.

There are problems that prove to be difficult but they get ironed out from the get-go and from there, things are straightforward. For example, in Mandarin, once you get a decent grasp of the tone system (which is easy through consistent use of the language), you are fine because there is no inflections and also things like gender, tense and etc are not necessary.

Haha

http://www.i18nguy.com/english-is-tough.html#reasons

[Amit]

lol what

english has a crazy low initial learning curve and a somewhat high medial learning curve

but mandarin has a crazy high initial learning curve which decreases

trust me none of my foreign friends (all of them in a wide variety of native language situations) will ever say russian/arabic/mandarin/etc is easier than ; they all say english is quite easy compared to russian/arabic/mandarin

[shaqadelic]

Seriously, I dunno what is so funny.

[Amit]

your ideas about english being omgz soOOooOOoOoOOoo hard

[shaqadelic]

Yeah and Japanese professionals pay uni students 60 US dollars per hour for basic english lesson.


trust me none of my foreign friends (all of them in a wide variety of native language situations) will ever say russian/arabic/mandarin/etc is easier than ; they all say english is quite easy compared to russian/arabic/mandarin

and I live in the region those foreigners come from. Can't say my observation is limited here.

[Smokey D]

Yeah. However, making yourself understood is hardly enough, this is a severe problem that graduates from South East Asia face when finding jobs from foreign employers. They can handle basic English but when they need to convey and explain ideas, they are done for.

How many native English speakers can convey complex ideas in Russian/Arabic or Mandarin?


There are problems that prove to be difficult but they get ironed out from the get-go and from there, things are straightforward. For example, in Mandarin, once you get a decent grasp of the tone system (which is easy through consistent use of the language), you are fine because there is no inflections and also things like gender, tense and etc are not necessary.

There's 50 000 characters to learn.

[Amit]

Yeah and Japanese professionals pay uni students 60 US dollars per hour for basic english lesson.

That's nothing compared to what you have to pay for basic Japanese lessons here.

and I live in the region those foreigners come from. Can't say my observation is limited here.

well it is because you aren't a native english speaker ^_^

[shaqadelic]

How many native English speakers can convey complex ideas in Russian/Arabic or Mandarin?

Well I dunno but if it is low, it could be cause they don't have a reason to seriously learn the languages not because of its difficulty. Not being proficient in English seriously damages your job opportunities in many developing countries. In Malaysia for example you can have a masters but get rejected cause you are not fluent in English

There's 50 000 characters to learn.

Not necessary as there are romanised versions that are accepted.

well it is because you aren't a native english speaker

And I get to see many people learn to master English and see the roadblocks they face while they excel in other languages.


That's nothing compared to what you have to pay for basic Japanese lessons here.

How much from a uni student who is not themselves entirely fluent in Japanese?

[Amit]

Well I dunno but if it is low, it could be cause they don't have a reason to seriously learn the languages not because of its difficulty. Not being proficient in English seriously damages your job opportunities in some countries. In Malaysia for example you can have a masters but get rejected cause you are not fluent in English

the largest difficulty that the english language poses is in idiomatic phrases; but that's more culture than language

26 letters and a very simple syntactic structure

russian and arabic doesn't even come close

Not necessary as there are romanised versions that are accepted.

this is relevant how

[Smokey D]

Well I dunno but if it is low, it could be cause they don't have a reason to seriously learn the languages not because of its difficulty. Not being proficient in English seriously damages your job opportunities in some countries. In Malaysia for example you can have a masters but get rejected cause you are not fluent in English

The necessity of English in the modern world has no bearing on the difficulty of learning Arabic or Russian.

Not necessary as there are romanised versions that are accepted.

Not in China.

[shaqadelic]

the largest difficulty that the english language poses is in idiomatic phrases; but that's more culture than language

26 letters and a very simple syntactic structure

russian and arabic doesn't even come close

And that culture aspect is probably the most important when you want to communicate.

this is relevant how

Because you can communicate in written language that Chinese can understand?

[Amit]

And that culture aspect is probably the most important when you want to communicate.

however you aren't taking into account cultural complexities for russian/arabic/mandarin

i'm simply following your logic

Because you can communicate in written language that Chinese can understand?

links plz to this magical hybrid language because it sure as hell isn't being taught at my university

[shaqadelic]

The necessity of English in the modern world has no bearing on the difficulty of learning Arabic or Russian.

It has bearing to whether there are many people capable at those languages. That was your original question.

Not in China.

Pinyin is accepted in CHina and is the official romanisation system of the People's Republic. It is used in education, industrial field and etc. In Taiwan, they have a variation of the pinyin system (for political reasons), however there are talks of adapting the 'mainland Pinyin' in schools to teach Mandarin.

however you aren't taking into account cultural complexities for russian/arabic/mandarin

Lets take Mandarin for example, in China there are various dialects but many are able to talk Standard Mandarin thus a foreigner who knows the Standard will likely have no problem communicating.

[mutant!]

This is a silly view to take. First of all, there is no cycle to racism. Secondly, it's only always going to be an issue if people keep on saying it's always going to be an issue and don't do anything to stop it.
I'm not so sure...

Apartheid, white superiority, etc. Now the government is mostly black and they're trying to repair the damage caused by the apartheid legacy. The result is there's a load of laws and stuff that are making it very hard for white people to make a living. It's gotten to the point where it's not racist in theory, but in practice, white people as a race are being left in the dust.

Something to ponder, methinks.

[nekotjie]

in other words, apartheid has turned around..

or, well, that's how i see it.

[Amit]

racism will always be part of our living.

this will only be true if people actually continue to believe this

[nekotjie]

this will only be true if people actually continue to believe this

so if people stop believing it'll rain, it's not going to rain?

racism might become less, but it will always be in some form or another.

[Amit]

so if people stop believing it'll rain, it's not going to rain?

logical fallacy

racism might become less, but it will always be in some form or another.

then it won't be racism

[-1up!-]

Hey that makes a lot of hamsters.

[mutant!]

logical fallacy

pwnt

I agree... It's not like it's always going to stick around regardless of what we try and do about it. But it is true that it is difficult to alter people's perceptions because these are often based on experience.

[shaqadelic]

If this thread is regarding racism in Britain, we will be talking about Big Brother or rather Bigot Brother as they say.

[Iskandar]

Chinese is renouned for its homophones and difficult pronounciation, let alone it's vast alphabet. You can't complain about English orthography and ignore the fact that there's something like 50 000 charactes in Chinese.
Written Chinese is actually much less ambiguous and easier to read quickly than most alphabetic languages, once the difficultly of learning the characters is overcome.
26 letters and a very simple syntactic structure

russian and arabic doesn't even come close
Well the Cyrillic and Arabic alphabets aren't much bigger, and much more suited for their respective languages. Russian does have a complex grammar, but the grammar of Arabic (though still more complex than English) has become standardized and more simplified with time.

[Amit]

arabic's grammar structures are far more advanced than english :-\

[Give me Beer]

And I get to see many people learn to master English and see the roadblocks they face while they excel in other languages.


I see the reverse of that every day. :0

[shaqadelic]

I see the reverse of that every day. :0

Do you mean people excelling in English and not in other languages or people not taking up to learn English?

[Give me Beer]

Do you mean people excelling in English and not in other languages or people not taking up to learn English?

People having a lot of trouble with other languages (mainly French and German) and excelling in English.

[shaqadelic]

People having a lot of trouble with other languages (mainly French and German) and excelling in English.

Even Chirac and Merkel converse in English during their first meeting, what do you expect? Haha.

[RCVA]

Britain's an island nation though so we're always going to be slightly xenophobic.

I think racism comes from either very stupid people or people who feel they have been wronged and the cause of their misfortune is the success of someone from another culture or country who they begin to feel doesn't belong in their country.


Edit: Just realised this was about america, ah well. i'd be out of my depth talking about how it is there, never been.

[Smokey D]

It has bearing to whether there are many people capable at those languages. That was your original question.

Er, my point was that they're difficult not that they're not widely used.

Pinyin is accepted in CHina and is the official romanisation system of the People's Republic. It is used in education, industrial field and etc. In Taiwan, they have a variation of the pinyin system (for political reasons), however there are talks of adapting the 'mainland Pinyin' in schools to teach Mandarin.

Yeah, so it's probably understood in Guandong, Shanghai and Beijing and very few other places.

Lets take Mandarin for example, in China there are various dialects but many are able to talk Standard Mandarin thus a foreigner who knows the Standard will likely have no problem communicating.

Yeah, lots of people speak English in Germany so foreigners can be understood. This doesn't have any bearing on the grammatical and syntactical difficulty of a language.

arabic's grammar structures are far more advanced than english :-\

More advanced? Hardly. More complex? Definitely.

How advanced a language's grammar is is defined by its necessity. English has spent the last 1200 years simplifying itself (abandoning inflective cases in favour of prepositions, a single second person pronoun etc) because simplicity was more important than grammatical accuracy. It compensated by adopting the largest popular vocabulary of any language, which allows speakers to convey complex ideas in other ways.


Written Chinese is actually much less ambiguous and easier to read quickly than most alphabetic languages, once the difficultly of learning the characters is overcome.

Yes, but it takes far longer to recognise each of the 50 000 characters in Chinese than it does to learn the various phonetic and semi-phonetic combinations of alphabets.

[italic zero]

I <3 English

[shaqadelic]

Er, my point was that they're difficult not that they're not widely used.


How many native English speakers can convey complex ideas in Russian/Arabic or Mandarin?

This was the question you posted. I assume that you implied that there are more native Russian/Arabic/etc speakers who have mastered English than the reverse. I offer that the reason is not because English is easier but because of the necessity of acquiring it.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn1233

Interesting read.

Despite being the world's lingua franca, English is the most difficult European language to learn to read. Children learning other languages master the basic elements of literacy within a year, but British kids take two-and-a-half years to reach the same point.

In the most extensive cross-national study ever, Philip Seymour of Dundee University and his team compared the reading abilities of children in 15 European countries. They found that those learning Romance languages such as Italian and French progressed faster than those learning a Germanic language such as German and English. "Children do seem to find English particularly complex and problematic though," says Seymour.

The team focused on the earliest phase of learning to read. They tested the children's ability to match letters to sounds, their capacity to recognise familiar written words, and their ability to work out new words from combinations of familiar syllables.

Seymour's findings might explain why more people are diagnosed as being dyslexic in English-speaking countries than elsewhere.

In languages where sounds simply match letters, some symptoms just would not show up, says Maggie Snowling, a dyslexia expert at the University of York. The condition would be more difficult to diagnose in children who speak these languages, though subtle symptoms such as impaired verbal short-term memory would remain. "People might be struggling, but no one would notice," she says.
Consonant clusters

The Germanic languages are tricky because many words contain clusters of consonants. The word "sprint", for example, is difficult because the letter p is sandwiched between two other consonants, making the p sound difficult to learn.

Another feature of English that makes it difficult is the complex relationship between letters and their sounds.

In Finnish, which Seymour found to be the easiest European language to learn to read, the relationship between a letter and its sound is fixed.

However, in English a letter's sound often depends on its context within the word. For example, the letter c can sound soft (as in receive) or hard (as in cat). Many words like "yacht" don't seem to follow any logic at all.
Historical accident

However, the things that make English difficult to read might have contributed to Britain's rich literary tradition. Words like "sign" and "bomb" are difficult because of their silent letters, but these hint at relationships with other words. The connection with words like "signature" and "bombard" is obvious.

Mark Pagel, an expert on language diversity at the University of Reading, acknowledges the irony that despite being the international lingua franca, English is the most difficult to learn. The dominance of English has more to do with historical accident than any innate superiority of the language, he says.

"People who speak English happen to have been the ones that were economically and politically dominant in recent history. Those forces greatly outweigh any small difficulties in language acquisition."

Yeah, so it's probably understood in Guandong, Shanghai and Beijing and very few other places.

The whole Chinese community of Mainland China, Taiwan and South East Asia are not few by any view. Furthermore pinyin is adopted by the ISO which gives it a global recognition, Library of Congress and etc. I will be surprised if they don't offer classes on the system in Western Mandarin classes.

Also through pinyin, someone can input Chinese characters with almost no character training (using computer programs). In fact in South East Asia, it is not uncommon to find Chinese youths who have limited knowledge of the characters who communicate using pinyin.

Yes, but it takes far longer to recognise each of the 50 000 characters in Chinese than it does to learn the various phonetic and semi-phonetic combinations of alphabets.

You don't need to learn all the characters to learn or speak Mandarin. The majority of them are not used in daily conversation.

[Give me Beer]

The Germanic languages are tricky because many words contain clusters of consonants. The word "sprint", for example, is difficult because the letter p is sandwiched between two other consonants, making the p sound difficult to learn.

Heh, like angstschreeuw or slechtstschrijvende. Try pronouncing those. :P

All those difficulties that the article presented are present in Dutch as well, and we've got some tongue-killing sounds in our language, which are very difficult to master for foreigners.

[ChimPz]

All those difficulties that the article presented are present in Dutch as well
That's because Dutch is also a germanic language, along with German, Afrikaans (which is basically a variant of Dutch) & Frisian.
So, because they all stem from same language family, it is relatively easy for say a Dutchman to learn German or English.
On the other hand, the average Frenchman, Russian, Saudi or Chinese (being a speaker of a language from the romanic, slavic, semitic and sino-tibetan family, respectively) is likely to have more difficulty learning English. This is mostly because there is much less relation between both languages.

[Give me Beer]

That's because Dutch is also a germanic language, along with German, Afrikaans (which is basically a variant of Dutch) & Frisian.
So, because they all stem from same language family, it is relatively easy for say a Dutchman to learn German or English.
On the other hand, the average Frenchman, Russian, Saudi or Chinese (being a speaker of a language from the romanic, slavic, semitic and sino-tibetan family, respectively) is likely to have more difficulty learning English. This is mostly because there is much less relation between both languages.

Yea, that was sort of what I was getting at. I'm, by the way, aware of which languages are related to Dutch. Afrikaans is however not a "variant of Dutch", it partially evolved out of an older version of it, different thing.

[Eskedi]

Hah angstschreeuw. The fact its written as one word makes it seem harder than it is. I've found ui to be the hardest to pronounce in Dutch (thuis for example), but there are still some incredibly tricky words, like overtuigen or verdraaien.

A lot of the minorities in Belgium are a little backward, for example: some of my Turkish friends (from Turkey) get harassed by the Belgian Turks for "not being Turkish/Islamic enough.

[Smokey D]

This was the question you posted. I assume that you implied that there are more native Russian/Arabic/etc speakers who have mastered English than the reverse. I offer that the reason is not because English is easier but because of the necessity of acquiring it.

You're offering pointless information about numbers not difficulty.

Interesting read.

Yes, it is interesting. But we all know English is hard to read because of its mixed orthography. What we are concerned with is foreigners' ability to learn the grammar and syntax.

The whole Chinese community of Mainland China, Taiwan and South East Asia are not few by any view. Furthermore pinyin is adopted by the ISO which gives it a global recognition, Library of Congress and etc. I will be surprised if they don't offer classes on the system in Western Mandarin classes.

The whole of China can't read characters let alone a Romanised script. Pinyin is official, but that hardly matters.

Also through pinyin, someone can input Chinese characters with almost no character training (using computer programs). In fact in South East Asia, it is not uncommon to find Chinese youths who have limited knowledge of the characters who communicate using pinyin.

Then they're illiterate in their own language.

You don't need to learn all the characters to learn or speak Mandarin. The majority of them are not used in daily conversation.

Personally, I am of the opinion if you don't know the majority of words in a language, you aren't actually very fluent.

[Volumnius Flush]

The only racism I see is when I get called honky, cracker, or am subjected to perpetual shame in PE class.

[lunchforthesky]

What about the KKK or the Skinhead gangs?

[Iskandar]

Personally, I am of the opinion if you don't know the majority of words in a language, you aren't actually very fluent.
I doubt many speakers of languages such as English, Spanish or Arabic, each of which has a lexicon in the ballpark of 300,000+, have the majority of words in their active vocabularies.

[Volumnius Flush]

What about the KKK or the Skinhead gangs?

You don't know America. The KKK were soundly defeated by Johnson in the mid-60's. The Skinheads are about as organized as Al Qaeda and pose little threat to inner city, urban, black gangs.

[lunchforthesky]

I didnt say they were all that prominant but they KKK still have 5000 members and there are various skinhead gangs especially Orange County. Black gangs are hardly racist they just happen to be black, people with mutual interests congregate together, like rich white businessmen hang out with people like themselves.

Or course if they are involved in criminal activity then its different, but they do this because they are black they do it because of social factors.

EDIT: Al Qaeda are damn well organised so i dont know where you got that from.

[Iskandar]

Heh, like angstschreeuw or slechtstschrijvende.
Not too difficult to pronounce correctly, once I looked up Dutch orthography. Some knowledge of phonetics helps a lot when dealing with foreign languages.

[Smokey D]

I doubt many speakers of languages such as English, Spanish or Arabic, each of which has a lexicon in the ballpark of 300,000+, have the majority of words in their active vocabularies.

I am not familiar with Arabic, but according to the book Mother Tongue by Bill Bryson, English is the only Western European language with a commonly used vocabulary exceeding 200 000 words.

The thing with alphabets, though, is that in most cases even where you don't recoginse a word you can induct from its similarity to other words its meaning in an appropriate context. The need to know the definition of every word in the language is therefore less pressing. My understanding of Chinese is limited, but I believe you can do something similar with characters (ie, characters with a basic meaning combine to convey a more complex idea). I was under the impression that there are some 50 000 basic characters in addition to the ones which require combination. I might be wrong in this regard.

However, I still place a great deal of faith in the CIA's assessment that the world's hardest languages are Cantonese, Mandarin, Arabic, Korean and Japanese, followed closely by Russian.

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

I didnt say they were all that prominant but they KKK still have 5000 members and there are various skinhead gangs especially Orange County.

The Klan have 5000 members scattered around the country in various local, unaffiliated organizations, each calling themselves the Klan. There is no more national Klan organization Their influence ranges from lolfodder to non-existant

[lunchforthesky]

The Klan have 5000 members scattered around the country in various local, unaffiliated organizations, each calling themselves the Klan. There is no more national Klan organization Their influence ranges from lolfodder to non-existant

I appreciate that but racism still exists and Skinhead movements are far more popular than the Klan.

[Zesty Mordant]

I think it can safely be said that in any case, white on black or black on white or any other form of racism, is largely decentralized and is only prevalent among individuals.

[shaqadelic]

You're offering pointless information about numbers not difficulty.

Well, what is your answer to that question then.


Yes, it is interesting. But we all know English is hard to read because of its mixed orthography. What we are concerned with is foreigners' ability to learn the grammar and syntax.

I feel that the difficulty of a language should be assessed in terms of all the four components; reading, writing, speaking and listening.

If a language is hard to read, then it is difficult.

In my view, one must be able to do basic reading comprehension before being able to really grasp grammar and syntax. In this case, English learners are disadvantaged because it takes longer to learn how to read than other languages. And even after that you meet oddities, like that 'yacht' example in the article. Arabic/Mandarin don't have oddities like that.

The whole of China can't read characters let alone a Romanised script. Pinyin is official, but that hardly matters.

The whole of China can't read characters? I find it hard to believe as China has a 90%+ literacy rate according to the UN. Care to elobrate? http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2005/pdf/HDR05_HDI.pdf


Personally, I am of the opinion if you don't know the majority of words in a language, you aren't actually very fluent.

I feel that if the words you know allow you to communicate effectively and efficiently (even complex ideas), then you are fluent.

Of course, different situations call for various levels of language proficiency so you may be fluent in one environment but not in another.

[Iskandar]

The thing with alphabets, though, is that in most cases even where you don't recoginse a word you can induct from its similarity to other words its meaning in an appropriate context. The need to know the definition of every word in the language is therefore less pressing. My understanding of Chinese is limited, but I believe you can do something similar with characters (ie, characters with a basic meaning combine to convey a more complex idea). I was under the impression that there are some 50 000 basic characters in addition to the ones which require combination. I might be wrong in this regard.
You are correct that the meaning of more complex sequences of Chinese can be deduced by their base characters. This is similar to what we do with alphabets.

However, there are not so many characters as you might think. A reform (Simplified Chinese) abolished many redundant characters, and simplified many existing ones. As well, many characters are simply obscure or archaic, and would rarely if ever be encountered. (English has many words like this.) Learning a character is really just like learning a word. The difficulty is writing them, not reading them.
However, I still place a great deal of faith in the CIA's assessment that the world's hardest languages are Cantonese, Mandarin, Arabic, Korean and Japanese, followed closely by Russian.
Well, depends who's learning them. Cantonese and Mandarin are part of a unique language family, Arabic is much closer to Proto-Semetic than its closest relatives, and Korean and Japanese are pretty much language isolates. Therefore I would say the problem isn't their complexity so much as that few languages are related to any of them. It's far easier for an English speaker to learn German, English's elder brother, than for him to learn Arabic which is part of a completely different language family from halfway across the world.

[Give me Beer]

Not too difficult to pronounce correctly, once I looked up Dutch orthography. Some knowledge of phonetics helps a lot when dealing with foreign languages.

I'd like to hear you do it actually. :D Could you record yourself? :P Just to see if you can really do it, especially the "schr" in schreeuw. Could you do "graag" ? Just wondering, the "gr" is a very different sound from the English "gr". At least, in my dialect, it's like spitting out phleghm for non-Dutch speakers, or so I've been told (my gf who's Spanish speaking wanted to know how to say "Te quiero" in Dutch, which is "Ik zie je graag", and she just couldn't master that "gr" sound).

And yea, those two words I cited earlier aren't the hardest words to pronounce, they're just funny 'cause they've got such a large sequence of consonants.

[Iskandar]

I'd like to hear you do it actually. :D Could you record yourself? :P Just to see if you can really do it, especially the "schr" in schreeuw. Could you do "graag" ? Just wondering, the "gr" is a very different sound from the English "gr". At least, in my dialect, it's like spitting out phleghm for non-Dutch speakers, or so I've been told (my gf who's Spanish speaking wanted to know how to say "Te quiero" in Dutch, which is "Ik zie je graag", and she just couldn't master that "gr" sound).

And yea, those two words I cited earlier aren't the hardest words to pronounce, they're just funny 'cause they've got such a large sequence of consonants.
I don't think I can record myself saying it--maybe if I found my mic. Sorry.:( I would.

graag ... that's a strange word. How do you pronounce the r in your dialect?

[Eskedi]

Graag is strange, theres nothing like it in English. I say the gr as in great, and it works (at least in Keerbergse), but the aag isn't so easy.
Give Me Beer, what is your dialect?

[Give me Beer]

Graag is strange, theres nothing like it in English. I say the gr as in great, and it works (at least in Keerbergse), but the aag isn't so easy.
Give Me Beer, what is your dialect?

Brabants, I'm from Leuven, so I speak with a 'Leuvense' inflection. :) If you pronounce the 'gr' as in 'great' you will sound very 'american'.. :P The way I pronounce it is far more to the back of my mouth, y'know, kind of like coughing up phleghm :P.

What's your original tongue by the way?

[italic zero]

i am now imagining 'graag' to sound like the act of vomiting

[Give me Beer]

Funny, 'cause it translates to 'I'd love to'.

[Eskedi]

English, I'm from New Zealand. I've lived in Belgium for 5 months now.

[Electronic Wolf]

How is Belgium?

[shaqadelic]

I heard the beer is excellent.

[Eskedi]

The beer is excellent. Everone at school thinks I'm an alcoholic (zotkop), but I'm just from New Zealand, and Belgian Beer>>>>>>NZ Beer