Spanish walkout over 'Saudi sexism'

[shaqadelic]

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/346FB09D-BD84-47F4-99F7-B3B9696C2CFB.htm

(Holy ****, Al Jazeera, they must only say good things about the Arab world cause they are the terrorists)


Spain's justice minister has refused to deliver a lecture at a university in Saudi Arabia after authorities banned visiting female journalists from attending.

Juan Fernando Lopez Aguilar was to deliver a lecture on the globalisation of terrorism at Al-Imam Muhammad Ibn Saud Islamic University, the academic heart of Saudi Arabia's Wahhabi Islam.

The Spanish reporters were prevented from entering despite the fact they were all wearing the traditional black abaya and veil, according to one of the journalists, Esther Bazan, of Spain's SER radio.

Saudi authorities said the university was an all-male institution and women were not allowed.

Last minute decision

The Spanish delegation and reporters travelling with them were not informed about the ban until Sunday night, but tried to enter the university anyway on Monday.

A justice ministry spokeswoman in Madrid said: "Yesterday, at the last minute, we were told women couldn't enter the university.

He cancelled because the none of the women were allowed to be there."

She said a written copy was given to students instead. Graduates of Al-Imam Muhammad Ibn Saud university work in the government, mosques, courts and in the religious police force which patrols all Saudi cities and towns to enforce Islam-oriented public order.

Last March, Britain's Prince Charles became the first non-Muslim foreign dignitary to visit the university.

The lecture was to have closed a two-day visit by Lopez Aguilar, who is stepping down from the justice post to run for office in his native Canary Islands region.

I like the idea of him standing up for his principles but seriously when he signed up for the lecture, didn't he read up about the uni?

Discuss. Oh and do not to degrade the discussion to wrongly equaling all Muslim majority countries having the same position towards women as Saudi Arabia.

[Africa]

He should have known, it's really his bad :/

[Amit]

mmmm gotta love institutionalized sexism

[Africa]

Yeah gotta love how they stone their women nb.

[Amit]

mmm islamic theocracies

twisting the good word of a chill guy into oppression of people based on creed and gender for over a millenia

:D

[Africa]

I am smirking right now but why omg I am immoral I need to go to church and believe in God now :(

[shaqadelic]

Although the dude should have carried on his lecture in my view, I bet there are many in the student body who do not share the same position the uni has towards women.

[Amit]

and now they have even more motivation to change antiquated and outdated views on discrimination!

[Africa]

They can put down their stones.

[VomitStainedCretin]

They should just have worn fake beards and pretended to be men like in the Stoning sequence in the Life of Brian.

[PerpetualBurn]

Did someone say Jehovah?

[spitfirejunky]

This country's hopeless.

[Tha End]

how's it hopeless it's prosperous

[spitfirejunky]

Severe human rights violations does not translate into prosperous.

[Tha End]

'severe human rights violations' does not translate into hopeless either, smart guy.

[spitfirejunky]

Point out where I said that this country's hopelessness is only resultant of its human rights violations.

And while you're at it, prove that Saudi Arabia is prosperous.

[Tha End]

Your comment was in response to the article, which discusses women's rights in Saudi Arabia. your comment said 'This country's hopeless', a direct response to the way Spanish women were treated in Saudi Arabia as mentioned in the article.

Oh, and just because I can:

The discovery of oil in March 1938 transformed the country economically, and has given the kingdom great prosperity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

Just occasionally, i feel a twinge of sympathy for the crusaders...

Then i remeber theyw ere just as bad.




Anyway, +10 points to those spanish guys for taking a stand, yo. Hopefully it'll give something for the saudis to think about, if only for those students affected.

[spitfirejunky]

Your comment was in response to the article, which discusses women's rights in Saudi Arabia. your comment said 'This country's hopeless', a direct response to the way Spanish women were treated in Saudi Arabia as mentioned in the article.

It was a general statement that referred to all the problems of SA, and this article addresses one of them. There's no specificity in that statement.

Oh, and just because I can:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia

Now explain how economic prosperity necessitates prosperity.

[Tha End]

Why? I proved you wrong already. Just move on and admit that KSA is prosperous.

[italic zero]

there's been a close correllation

[spitfirejunky]

Why? I proved you wrong already. Just move on and admit that KSA is prosperous.

You haven't proven that SA is prosperous, nor have you proven how that alleviates SA's severe problems (that render it hopeless).

EDIT:

Let me clarify. In order for a country to prosper, its economy must not only grow. The living conditions of its inhabitants must also improve, which is not the case in SA.

[Tha End]

umm you realise that many people there enjoy tremendous wealth, while many do not. it's the same in the United States, where many people are rich, and many people are living in trailer homes.

get it?

and prosperity alleviates KSA's 'severe problems' because those problems are non-existant. tell me, what is the biggest problem KSA faces today?

[Krabsworth]

Who cares if they are prosperous they are **** to their womanz.

[Electronic Wolf]

I don't think a written form should have been handed out either.

[Tha End]

Who cares if they are prosperous they are **** to their womanz.

nice generalisation there

[spitfirejunky]

umm you realise that many people there enjoy tremendous wealth, while many do not. it's the same in the United States, where many people are rich, and many people are living in trailer homes.

Even if everyone in Saudi Arabia lived in the first world, that would not necessitate that all of them enjoy the fruits of a first world living. For example, what use is having access to expanded employment if only a small portion of the population can enjoy it? That is a direct reference to how women make up an extremely small portion of the country's labor force, and pretty much makes any developments in employment irrelevent to women.

and prosperity alleviates KSA's 'severe problems' because those problems are non-existant. tell me, what is the biggest problem KSA faces today?

Let's take this one problem at a time.

It's an authoritarian theocracy.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

Who cares if they are prosperous they are **** to their womanz.

saudi arabia

morelike saudi are-gay-bia


amirite




But no, seriously. prosperous is a word yuou could throw around all day; i wouldn't consider a nation develloped by my own western standards if it features institutionalised sexism

[Tha End]

Even if everyone in Saudi Arabia lived in the first world, that would not necessitate that all of them enjoy the fruits of a first world living. For example, what use is having access to expanded employment if only a small portion of the population can enjoy it? That is a direct reference to how women make up an extremely small portion of the country's labor force, and pretty much makes any developments in employment irrelevent to women.



Let's take this one problem at a time.

It's an authoritarian theocracy.

and because of this it has one of the lowest crime-rates on Earth... is that a bad thing?

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

and because of this it has one of the lowest crime-rates on Earth... is that a bad thing?

Yes

or, to put it another way:

I'd rather get robbed than live in a country where women arne't allowed in the university

[Amit]

and because of this it has one of the lowest crime-rates on Earth... is that a bad thing?

hellll yes

[italic zero]

haha isn't that pretty much zero's exact opinion on crime and punishment

[Tha End]

Yes

or, to put it another way:

I'd rather get robbed than live in a country where women arne't allowed in the university

how about murdered?

[italic zero]

I'm pretty damn close to New Hampshire

[Amit]

tbh

death is nowhere near as bad as institutionalized oppression from the moment you are born to the day that you die

[spitfirejunky]

and because of this it has one of the lowest crime-rates on Earth... is that a bad thing?

A low crime rate is always good, but at what cost? Political reform is extremely important as well, and the current government makes this impossible without revolution. As such, even if the population started becoming worried about their government, it's not within their power to incite change.

[Zesty Mordant]

umm you realise that many people there enjoy tremendous wealth, while many do not. it's the same in the United States, where many people are rich, and many people are living in trailer homes.

except in the US, people living in trailer homes who steal food to feed themselves don't get their hands chopped off.

and prosperity alleviates KSA's 'severe problems' because those problems are non-existant. tell me, what is the biggest problem KSA faces today?

a lack of personal freedom?

[Hababi]

except in the US, people living in trailer homes who steal food to feed themselves don't get their hands chopped off.


It is definitely an effective way at combating crime ;) :p

The End is basically allowing himself to be a mouthpiece for authoritarianism.

[Zesty Mordant]

no its not, its moronic.

we'd be a nation of amputees.

[Electronic Wolf]

Anyone who thinks losing a hand is fair punishment for stealing is insane.

[White Riot!]

saudi arabia

morelike saudi are-gay-bia


amirite




But no, seriously. prosperous is a word yuou could throw around all day; i wouldn't consider a nation develloped by my own western standards if it features institutionalised sexism


nor Would I a nation that drafts women. or even drafts at all. *cough cough* israel *cough* most of the world *cough*

[italic zero]

sexist

[Aaron]

mmm islamic theocracies

twisting the good word of a chill guy into oppression of people based on creed and gender for over a millenia

:D
Just like christians in democratic countries twisting the good word of a group of chill guys :thumb:

[White Riot!]

sexist

efficentist......men are better at warz remember? :p

[italic zero]

but that has nothing to do with the morality of drafting women

[Amit]

Just like christians in democratic countries twisting the good word of a group of chill guys :thumb:

of course of course

but those democratic countries have improved by leaps and bounds in the last century while change in islamic theocracies has been slow at best and nonexistent at worst

[shaqadelic]

Hopefully it'll give something for the saudis to think about, if only for those students affected.

Do you think the students support or share the uni's position towards women? I bet many don't.


Now explain how economic prosperity necessitates prosperity.

Usually when people talk about propensity, they talk of economic success as the economy is the platform to improve other sectors of the country.

The living conditions of its inhabitants must also improve, which is not the case in SA.

Most Saudis are experiencing high standard of living and it is improving. The government has invested in the education sector to increase its low enrollment, and spent more on health care. Uneven development has dropped from 2005. More job opportunities are available to nationals as lesser work visas are offered to foreigners.

That is a direct reference to how women make up an extremely small portion of the country's labor force, and pretty much makes any developments in employment irrelevent to women.

Um 30% of managerial and administration positions are held by women in Saudi. This percentage of the total is comparable to developed countries like Belgium. You are understating women's role in the workforce here.

http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/country_fact_sheets/cty_fs_SAU.html

It's an authoritarian theocracy

Iraq has a democratic system, look at the hopeless situation there. It is not correct to assess a country's state solely on its ruling system.

I'd rather get robbed than live in a country where women arne't allowed in the university

The article said that only this uni doesn't let female on campus. To my knowledge, not all Saudi uni are like this. Even western countries have boys/girls only schools. The difference is that they are more flexible and would bend the rule if there was a Spanish minister conducting a lecture.

death is nowhere near as bad as institutionalized oppression from the moment you are born to the day that you die

Being alive is the starting point to be able to initiate change.

except in the US, people living in trailer homes who steal food to feed themselves don't get their hands chopped off.

But they don't chop off poor people's hand, one of the term that must be met to prescribe the punishment is that the person is stealing out of bad intent, being poor and in need of food doesn't warrant for the chopping. Oh and I am not sure they practice that anymore in Saudi.

but those democratic countries have improved by leaps and bounds in the last century while change in islamic theocracies has been slow at best and nonexistent at worst

Well better slow than instant noodle attempts like in Iraq.

[spitfirejunky]

Usually when people talk about propensity, they talk of economic success as the economy is the platform to improve other sectors of the country.

Only when the effects of the improvement of the economy are met with the population. See the example about women.

Most Saudis are experiencing high standard of living and it is improving. The government has invested in the education sector to increase its low enrollment, and spent more on health care. Uneven development has dropped from 2005. More job opportunities are available to nationals as lesser work visas are offered to foreigners.

OK.

Um 30% of managerial and administration positions are held by women in Saudi. This percentage of the total is comparable to developed countries like Belgium. You are understating women's role in the workforce here.

http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/country_fact_sheets/cty_fs_SAU.html


Managing and administration hardly make a significant portion of the labor force. Women's opportunities are still limited severely. Figures as low as 5% (of women who are employed) have been reported.

Iraq has a democratic system, look at the hopeless situation there. It is not correct to assess a country's state solely on its ruling system.

Iraq's is a joke system that's not developed by any stretch of the imagination. Look at every first world nation.

Well better slow than instant noodle attempts like in Iraq.

Well, since authoritarian theocracy doesn't welcome political reform easily (as I'd argued previously), it's going to be a hell of a slow change.

I'll concede and say it's not hopeless, but it's quite the fix.

[shaqadelic]

Only when the effects of the improvement of the economy are met with the population. See the example about women.

Women get the same level of social benefits as their male counterparts. In fact, in terms of education and health care, they have benefited more than their male counterpart according to a report by the World Bank. The fact that this doesn't translate to the labour force doesn't mean they are abandoned.

Managing and administration hardly make a significant portion of the labor force.

In the Middle East region, managers take a bigger portion of the labour force because employees are more likely than not foreign labours.

Women's opportunities are still limited severely. Figures as low as 5% (of women who are employed) have been reported.

I have seen a couple of reported numbers, the highest reported is 14%. Regardless I agree that it is low.

The Saudi government is interested in improving the situation. A new employment system was enacted in 2005 that allows women to participate in all fields they were not able to before particularly IT, banking and trade communication.

Society also has the right mindset. A research showed that males in Saudi are acceptive of female colleagues and would recognise her right as a superior if they are capable. More importantly, women are now enthusiastic to be part of the work force.

Furthermore, by not utilizing the untapped female potential, it will hinder further economic expansion of the kingdom.

So I am seeing the limitations would be lessen in the coming future, if not from the government or social situation, from economic necessity.


Iraq's is a joke system that's not developed by any stretch of the imagination. Look at every first world nation.

There are countries with a stable democratic system being extremely undeveloped. Niger comes to mind. And in the coming decades, you will see countries with non democratic system join the developed world, China for example.

Well, since authoritarian theocracy doesn't welcome political reform easily (as I'd argued previously), it's going to be a hell of a slow change.

Even if regimes like Saudi are slow as hell, foreign involvement could be counter productive. I recall a democratic voice in Iran stated that most of the progress and effort of democratic reforms made in the Islamic Republic and the region in general were undermined when the US invaded Iraq.

I'll concede and say it's not hopeless, but it's quite the fix.

Yes a fix seems more correct.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

nor Would I a nation that drafts women. or even drafts at all. *cough cough* israel *cough* most of the world *cough*

drafting women is ok

drafting at all is totally not ok

[Tha End]

Anyone who thinks losing a hand is fair punishment for stealing is insane.

well then don't steal

you shouldn't be stealing anyway, should you?

and if you do steal...

don't get caught. :p

[shaqadelic]

or witnessed by 4 people. haha

[Tha End]

word

[lunchforthesky]

Conscription should only be considered under extreme circumstances, like the 2nd world war for the UK, not the first.

Anyone who is at all civilised knows that cutting bits off people for committing crimes is barbaric.

[Tha End]

an eye for an eye

[Tha End]

or in this case, a hand for some bread

or whatever

[lunchforthesky]

maybe if your a caveman.

[Tha End]

you're* Hammurabi

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

or in this case, a hand for some bread

or whatever

hand =/= bread

if dude stole somebodies hand

i could at least understand why the punishment was so severe

but bread?

dude, it's only bread, yo

[shaqadelic]

hand =/= bread

if dude stole somebodies hand

i could at least understand why the punishment was so severe

but bread?

dude, it's only bread, yo

I believe another term that must be met to prescribe the punishment is that the item stolen must be more expensive than a certain value. I forgot the exact value but gold is used as measuring unit. Whatever it is, a piece of bread will not even come close to that value.

[Tha End]

I know, it was a joke.

Geez gice

[spitfirejunky]

or witnessed by 4 people. haha

Since you guys seem to be Saudi buffs, do they still impose that the testimony of a woman is worth half a man's?

[YDtoad]

no its not, its moronic.

we'd be a nation of amputees.

Yeah well try stealing with a STUMP for a hand!!!

I said efficient, not sane nor just

[Tha End]

Since you guys seem to be Saudi buffs, do they still impose that the testimony of a woman is worth half a man's?

ahahah 'Saudi buffs' I like that

I actually have family from Saudi Arabia originally

but anyways I'm not sure about that, but I think so. It's been about a year and a half though since I've been to Saudi.

[shaqadelic]

Since you guys seem to be Saudi buffs, do they still impose that the testimony of a woman is worth half a man's?

Seeing AI report, no mention was made regarding that practice in their criticisms of the judicial process.

[spitfirejunky]

Women get the same level of social benefits as their male counterparts. In fact, in terms of education and health care, they have benefited more than their male counterpart according to a report by the World Bank. The fact that this doesn't translate to the labour force doesn't mean they are abandoned.

In the Middle East region, managers take a bigger portion of the labour force because employees are more likely than not foreign labours.

SA does have a force in that field that's much more prevalent than other nations, but by no means does this represent the majority of its entire work force, nor should it be treated separately from jobs that women aren't confined to.

I have seen a couple of reported numbers, the highest reported is 14%. Regardless I agree that it is low.

The Saudi government is interested in improving the situation. A new employment system was enacted in 2005 that allows women to participate in all fields they were not able to before particularly IT, banking and trade communication.

Society also has the right mindset. A research showed that males in Saudi are acceptive of female colleagues and would recognise her right as a superior if they are capable. More importantly, women are now enthusiastic to be part of the work force.

Furthermore, by not utilizing the untapped female potential, it will hinder further economic expansion of the kingdom.

So I am seeing the limitations would be lessen in the coming future, if not from the government or social situation, from economic necessity.

The Saudi government has a knack for being all talk and nothing else. When SA actually meets these reforms, I'll bare less resent towards its administration.

There are countries with a stable democratic system being extremely undeveloped. Niger comes to mind. And in the coming decades, you will see countries with non democratic system join the developed world, China for example.

These countries with non-democratic systems are going to be met with severe problems in the near future due to the inability to incite political reform. In fact, it's happening in China right now. Is it so hard to see the disadvantages of an unchanging system?

In any case, when I responded to your point about Iraq, I sort of went on a tangent. I'm not saying that democracy is the end-all solution, nor am I saying that the only problem with an authoritarian theocracy is lack of political reform.

Even if regimes like Saudi are slow as hell, foreign involvement could be counter productive. I recall a democratic voice in Iran stated that most of the progress and effort of democratic reforms made in the Islamic Republic and the region in general were undermined when the US invaded Iraq.

I agree. I'm not advocating foreign involvement in SA's affairs. I'm simply pointing out that its authoritarian theocracy is taking a toll on its people, and that it has more problems than most Saudi admirers would like to think.

[spitfirejunky]

Seeing AI report, no mention was made regarding that practice in their criticisms of the judicial process.

ahahah 'Saudi buffs' I like that

I actually have family from Saudi Arabia originally

but anyways I'm not sure about that, but I think so. It's been about a year and a half though since I've been to Saudi.

I'm not sure it's been completely abandoned in practice, but it's one of those practices that is so blatantly outdated that it should be done away with completely.

One thing about Saudi Arabia that I don't like is how they practice a somewhat outdated version of Sharia. I'd say it's pretty clear in Islam that it's a changing legal theory, but most fundamentalist nations deny that.

[shaqadelic]

SA does have a force in that field that's much more prevalent than other nations, but by no means does this represent the majority of its entire work force, nor should it be treated separately from jobs that women aren't confined to.

It does not represent the majority but because of its higher portion in the workforce, it becomes relevant to mention as when more women join the work force, quite a sizable number will get managerial positions.

And also when they do join jobs they were not able to in the past, they can enjoy upwards mobility.


The Saudi government has a knack for being all talk and nothing else. When SA actually meets these reforms, I'll bare less resent towards its administration.

They usually play lip service on issues concerning judicial bodies and law enforcement but female employment is less likely to suffer this problem as the civil society's position and economic pressures call for the system to be acted on.

These countries with non-democratic systems are going to be met with severe problems in the near future due to the inability to incite political reform. In fact, it's happening in China right now. Is it so hard to see the disadvantages of an unchanging system?

I am aware of the disadvantages of systems that do not allow for reformation but I don't think a system alone can lead to the state of the country's prosperity. Usually it is the people running the system.

I'm simply pointing out that its authoritarian theocracy is taking a toll on its people, and that it has more problems than most Saudi admirers would like to think.

I disagree when people paints a much unsavory picture than the reality is, that is all.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

Yeah well try stealing with a STUMP for a hand!!!

I said efficient, not sane nor just

try FINDING EMPLOYMENT with only a STUMP for a hand!!!

the only way that dude is gewtting any eats is by STEALING foood!!!!


lol cox lol

[lunchforthesky]

Yeah well try stealing with a STUMP for a hand!!!

I said efficient, not sane nor just

Come now Zero.

[RNR]

If your unemployement rate is so high that people have to steal food to live and then you cut their hands off for stealing, you need to re-think your economic and social policies. Or just die.

[Zesty Mordant]

Yeah well try stealing with a STUMP for a hand!!!

I said efficient, not sane nor just

yup, its so efficient that said thieves wouldn't be able to be a productive society via work/labor, everyday routines, etc with a stump for a hand.

[RNR]

We should chop off the Saudi government's hands for robbing their citizens of liberty.

That is what is known as a political burn.

[the_green_bastard]

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/346FB09D-BD84-47F4-99F7-B3B9696C2CFB.htm

(Holy ****, Al Jazeera, they must only say good things about the Arab world cause they are the terrorists)



I like the idea of him standing up for his principles but seriously when he signed up for the lecture, didn't he read up about the uni?

Discuss. Oh and do not to degrade the discussion to wrongly equaling all Muslim majority countries having the same position towards women as Saudi Arabia.

I have quite a lot of respect for this man.

[Aaron]

of course of course

but those democratic countries have improved by leaps and bounds in the last century while change in islamic theocracies has been slow at best and nonexistent at worst
Ah but you forget the beauty of democratic states; certain parts are still quite backwards. Ie the bible-belts :rolleyes:

[Surgicalgod]

Another reason why I dislike Gulf Arab countries.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

Another reason why I dislike Gulf Arab countries.

Hey amn

how's lebanon doing

getting rebuilt ok?


also that guy who was forced to resign

are you in favour of that

or against

[Surgicalgod]

Lebanon is doing fine but there's a lot of internal tension; maybe another civil war soon.

What guy?

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

Lebanon is doing fine but there's a lot of internal tension; maybe another civil war soon.

What guy?

Minister for "Defence"


basically the guy that co-ordinated the lebanon conflict on the israeli side

the israelis wanted him out because he failed miserably

[Hababi]

yup, its so efficient that said thieves wouldn't be able to be a productive society via work/labor, everyday routines, etc with a stump for a hand.

They can just find work that doesn't necessitate two working hands. Like...ticket taker at a movie theater :cool:

Also though I was talking about effective in cutting down crime. And it is. The middle eastern countries with that type of law have low crime rates. That's a good part of why. I'm not saying it's the legal system to have, but if you're just looking at deterrence, it works.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

They can just find work that doesn't necessitate two working hands. Like...ticket taker at a movie theater :cool:

I'm not sure countries under sharia law are so big on the hollywood there

[spitfirejunky]

They got movie goers. Problem is the movies are shortened beyond comprehension to accommodate their sheltered minds.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

I hear Theo van gogh is pretty big out there

[Jon]

they might have liked the passion of the christ, dunno.

and maybe fiddler on the roof.

[VomitStainedCretin]

they might have liked the passion of the christ, dunno.

and maybe fiddler on the roof.

Or any other films where they get to see the Jews suffer :lol:

[Tha End]

no.

[Jon]

Or any other films where they get to see the Jews suffer :lol:
yeah that was the jist of my post :lol:

[the_green_bastard]

I think the bottom line here is that not only is this something which the Spaniards view to be immoral suppression motivated by gender, but that it also was something of a slap in the face to Spanish society as a whole, because the Saudis, while believing in maintaining such a rigid and barbaric system on their own soil, didn't have the respect to acknowledge the societal difference of a sovereign nation to which they were host, thus ruining any grounds for diplomacy. This was a correct decision on their part, to both make a stand on behalf of these female journalists and to make a larger point; to get two birds stoned at once.