This is gonna make me sound bad but w/e.

[thickasabrick]

Why is there such a high value placed on the life of an individual? Seriously. I think nature has its way of dealing with things, and humans are ****ing it up big time.

Let me put it this way. As my mother was birthing my older brother, she needed a blood transfusion or she would have died. Now, of course all of you say "thank god she got that transfusion" or else she woulda died, my brother wouldn't have been born, and then me and my sister wouldn't have been born.

But then you look at all the food we've wasted, all the pollution and garbage we've put back into the earth/atmosphere, all the energy we use, all that sorta stuff. Sure I'm glad my mom lived because then I was born, but who the hell cares about us as individuals.

Humans need to stop playing god. There is death for a reason. There is disease/illness and wars and murder for a reason. Diseases are one of natures many tools for population controls. If humans hadn't started cheating diseases with medicine, the world wouldn't be so overpopulated and there wouldn't be so much hunger and poverty in the world, there wouldn't be such a seperation between the rich and the poor.

War is natural. Ants have wars, they are one of the very few warring animals/insects. Is that a surprise? If I recall correctly, they are the most populous species on earth. War is a natural way for population control.

Yes, Bush is sending more troops to the war. Good, America is overpopulated as it is. All the polution they are spilling into the world is going to make it very unpleasant for our grandchildren.

So quit being so selfish and think about the entire earth, not just humans as individuals who are the supreme beings on this earth. We cut down trees just because we wanna write **** down? How selfish!

Rant over.

[DBoons Ghost]

Someone had themselves an epiphany.

[thickasabrick]

Well I've thought this for a while. But I never said it because I'm such a hippocrite, I love writing, I use kleenexes by the loadful, I drive my car just for fun at night.

I'd stop, but it's not gonna make that much of a difference. The world needs to come to an agreement about this before things can really change.

edit - This was really not well received when I said it in school when the blood donor clinic came last year.

[PerpetualBurn]

No developed nation is overpopulated.

But good try.

[The_Passenger]

So we should stop treating illnesses and let people die when there's a chance they could live? Oh yes, things will function brilliantly that way.

[thedeadwalk!]

Hunger and poverty are not a result of overpopulation. There is plenty to go around we just need to distribute it evenly.

Don't complain about you wasting things when, guess what, you can change! Don't like you wasting food, consume less. Tell your parents. Problems often occur not because we are alone in our views, but fail to express them to others.

[GreyHam]

did you just say america is overpopulated? that enormous land mass with miles and miles of empty space intersperced with redneck town and giant cities?

and the value placed on human life stems from religion id assume, but even in atheist philosophies it bottles down to: human beings are the only thinking, conscious, creative species on the planet with infinite potential. yes, lots of people do really naff things. but so many people have done amazing things in theyre time. thats the value of human life

with all due respect, if your mother had died (changing your story ever so slightly so that your already alive, for arguments sake) then im sure youd have a very different viewpoint

[Amit]

lol @ america is overpopulated

thickasabrick, this was a cute thread

[Mr. Ron]

lmao


Yeah, those evil medicines that make people's lives easier shouldn't be around!


Dude, come on. If you had some sickness that could be easily cured by some pills or whatever, you'd be first in line.


The point of living is to live a fulfilling/happy life. That is my opinion. You can't do that when you're sick all the time.



EDIT: Wasn't it concluded once that the entire population of the world cold fit in Texas?

[Amit]

tbh the point of living is to live a fulfilling and happy life while contributing at least a little something back to a world from which one has taken so much

[Mr. Ron]

tbh the point of living is to live a fulfilling and happy life while contributing at least a little something back to a world from which one has taken so much

Yeah, I can agree to that.

[Amit]

fitting ~6,569,152,666 people into 268,581 miles of area would be quite the feat tbh

~24500 people per square mile :lol:

[Mr. Ron]

fitting 6 billion people into 268581 miles of area would be quite the feat tbh

meh. Thats why I asked, I wasn't sure if it was true or not.


Perhaps if we stack them on top of each other...hmmm....BRB, I have to draw up some schematics.

[halfdeadhippo]

Alaska would make more sense, but it'd still be ridiculously crowded. Like three times the pop density of Tokyo, and from what I gather, Tokyo's pretty crowded.

[thedeadwalk!]

So let's try the US as a whole. Taking Atman's world population figure and the total area of the US from the CIA World Factbook, we get: 682 people per square mile.

That's not so bad, almost half as populated as Bangladesh, which I think is the most crowded country.

[Amit]

tbh bangladesh still doesn't feel crowded when you go there

which is crazy

[Mr. Ron]

I'd like to go to India sometime. I hear the scenery is beautiful.

[thickasabrick]

You guys are still seeing life from the "humans should be made as comfortable and happy as possible at the cost of everything else in nature"

I mean, think of antibacterial soap. Bacteria have just as much of a right to live as humans do. It's illegal to go around murdering dogs, why the hell do we think we can murder bacteria? It's because we don't think we need bacteria, yet we do. We need bacteria a lot more than we need dogs.

You guys will understand someday hopefully.

[Eliminator]

hey guys get this

we breathe air

[Lydisk]

yeah

or

no

[GreyHam]

You guys are still seeing life from the "humans should be made as comfortable and happy as possible at the cost of everything else in nature"

I mean, think of antibacterial soap. Bacteria have just as much of a right to live as humans do. It's illegal to go around murdering dogs, why the hell do we think we can murder bacteria? It's because we don't think we need bacteria, yet we do. We need bacteria a lot more than we need dogs.

You guys will understand someday hopefully.

erm

bacteria arent sentient beings
thats such a ridiculous thing to say, please tell me your joking
and if you need e-coli, salmonella, and god knows what other crap you usually wash your hands to get rid of then :thumb:

[thickasabrick]

Yeah we should have all that stuff, keeps the human population down.

edit - And scientists/philosophers etc can't even solve the mind/body problem. They can't figure out what part of the brain actually creates "the mind"...so who are we to say that trees and bacteria aren't thinking things as well.

[Amit]

You guys are still seeing life from the "humans should be made as comfortable and happy as possible at the cost of everything else in nature"

I mean, think of antibacterial soap. Bacteria have just as much of a right to live as humans do. It's illegal to go around murdering dogs, why the hell do we think we can murder bacteria? It's because we don't think we need bacteria, yet we do. We need bacteria a lot more than we need dogs.

You guys will understand someday hopefully.

lol @ u

[Eliminator]

i dunno why don't you ask the bacteria

[Amit]

edit - And scientists/philosophers etc can't even solve the mind/body problem. They can't figure out what part of the brain actually creates "the mind"...so who are we to say that trees and bacteria aren't thinking things as well.

because they lack a central nervous system and cerebral cortex

[Africa]

Conserve human life by killing it off, is that the logic of this thread?

[Amit]

Conserve human life by killing it off, is that the logic of this thread?

i think the logic of this thread that man is defying the laws of nature by following the laws of nature

[thickasabrick]

There's a difference between killing something off and letting nature run its course.

[Amit]

There's a difference between killing something off and letting nature run its course.

killing something off is nature running it's course good going

if you want to talk about natural law, a species has every right to eliminate a threat to itself

of course, the threat has every right to evolve and adapt as well

welcome to biology 101

[GreyHam]

Yeah we should have all that stuff, keeps the human population down.

edit - And scientists/philosophers etc can't even solve the mind/body problem. They can't figure out what part of the brain actually creates "the mind"...so who are we to say that trees and bacteria aren't thinking things as well.

im sure they have a lot to think about...
please, just stop. its not big and its not clever

[thickasabrick]

okay so then why is it illegal to murder another human being. It's natural, animals attack and kill eachother all the time. Another classic case of humans thinking they are somehow above every other animal.

[Eliminator]

ever kill a bug?

[thickasabrick]

ever kill a bug?

No sir, that's murder. :thumb:

[Africa]

Thickasabrick, I think humanity's transcendental goal right now is to utilize our advanced sentience to make life more pleasant for everybody and this is entirely possible as we continue to progress. What you're saying is that we should resort to animalistic behavior because that is "natural." That's strange because we're the only lifeforms on earth that can comprehend "natural."

[PsychoTronn]

we evolved and took over the world. of course we should do things to the best of our abilitys, the point of life is to survive so why woulden't we save peoples lives

[Amit]

okay so then why is it illegal to murder another human being. It's natural, animals attack and kill eachother all the time.

you really need to be more informed before posting here

it's natural for animals to attack and kill each other because they are different species

you know that humans don't make up different species, right?

either way, bringing up legal issues is irrelevant to this discussion about natural law

are we going to talk about society or nature?

make up your mind already

Another classic case of humans thinking they are somehow above every other animal.

humans are above every other animal simply because of our advantages given to us by evolution

[GreyHam]

okay so then why is it illegal to murder another human being. It's natural, animals attack and kill eachother all the time. Another classic case of humans thinking they are somehow above every other animal.

because animals have no concept of guilt and no perception of right and wrong, apart from at a ery basic level (my dog knows its wrong to jump on the sofa - but only because every time hes done it in the past weve pushed him off again, so its not worth his time)

whatever some may say, we are not animals, we are above animals, because of our high intelligence. so why should we act like them.

[DBoons Ghost]

Yo, thick.. Take some vitamin B and eat some bananas. The potassium will help balance things out.

[thickasabrick]

Save people lives? Think how many people have died from using man made devices...like cars.

Africa, when you say "as we continue to progress" do you mean that keep building more and more machines until everyone has cancer from the lack of ozone and is dying from pollution? Yes, that will save humanity because it'll teach us a grave lesson if we do survive.

edit - Amit, did you really think that by making the word species bold it would convince me? Animals of the same species kill eachother all the time.

[tumples]

we are above other animals, because we are the primary species now. as a result, we have developed morals that tell us killing is wrong. itd be a waste to let mankind decend into a feral nature, where killing fine and everything goes

[Africa]

I think Thick is strangely mixing some kind of spiritual idea into natural law, something along the lines of we're all the same on that level, and then he's mixing it with a wacked out idea to resort to animalism, which cancels out the idea that we are equal to other creatures.

[Amit]

animals don't have any perception of right or wrong in the ethical or moral sense

their actions are guided by what evolution has imparted onto them to make them as successful a species as possible

Save people lives? Think how many people have died from using man made devices...like cars.

think of how many people have died from medical and surgical complications

you're asking too much for something to only be beneficial; there isn't one thing out there which would meet your impossibly illogical criteria

Africa, when you say "as we continue to progress" do you mean that keep building more and more machines until everyone has cancer from the lack of ozone and is dying from pollution? Yes, that will save humanity because it'll teach us a grave lesson if we do survive.

ahahahahahahahahahahah

[tumples]

thick you lost it seems :P

[GreyHam]

Save people lives? Think how many people have died from using man made devices...like cars.

Africa, when you say "as we continue to progress" do you mean that keep building more and more machines until everyone has cancer from the lack of ozone and is dying from pollution? Yes, that will save humanity because it'll teach us a grave lesson if we do survive.

and do you know how many people are still alive because of the advances made by medicine? yes, we have cocked up the world a bit, but, yknow, mozart... monet...einstein...

this is really frustrating, like arguing with a goat

[thickasabrick]

and do you know how many people are still alive because of the advances made by medicine?

And is that a good thing? Sure it helped increase the survival rate of humans. But at the expense of basically everything else in nature. This is what I've been trying to say and you can't seem to wrap your heads around it.

[Africa]

Africa, when you say "as we continue to progress" do you mean that keep building more and more machines until everyone has cancer from the lack of ozone and is dying from pollution? Yes, that will save humanity because it'll teach us a grave lesson if we do survive.

I mean continue to progress technologically, psychologically, etc. Lol that isn't the intended goal of the machines we are building, we aren't intentionally trying to screw things up we just do, then we troubleshoot, create technology that doesn't pollute, then create means that don't exploit other humans in the creation of that technology. That's beyond the point though.

[Amit]

And is that a good thing? Sure it helped increase the survival rate of humans. But at the expense of basically everything else in nature. This is what I've been trying to say and you can't seem to wrap your heads around it.

so we should be punished for our evolutionary superiority but other animals shouldn't be?

please tell me you're just trolling us

and that you ignoring basic tenets of nature is just for massiv lolz

[Africa]

Thick can you type up your main points with bulletpoints.

[thickasabrick]

Yeah of course we could continue to progress until our machines don't "pollute"

Say everything starts running on solar power, or hydroelectricity. Think of all the disrupted ecosystems in the rivers from all the dams we created. And all the energy from the sun that is supposed to reach the earth but doesn't because we've sucked it all up to power our ipods.

[Amit]

Yeah of course we could continue to progress until our machines don't "pollute"

Say everything starts running on solar power, or hydroelectricity. Think of all the disrupted ecosystems in the rivers from all the dams we created. And all the energy from the sun that is supposed to reach the earth but doesn't because we've sucked it all up to power our ipods.

i guess fusion power is beyond your deficient comprehension

LoL

[thickasabrick]

so you think fusion power will have absolutely no negative effects if everything used it for the rest of humans exisistance?

[GreyHam]

And is that a good thing? Sure it helped increase the survival rate of humans. But at the expense of basically everything else in nature. This is what I've been trying to say and you can't seem to wrap your heads around it.

no, i really can wrap my head around it, but if the alternative is going back to 30 year life expectancy and crawling around in my own faeces then i can safely say 'sucks to be nature, GreyHam ftw'

on that note, im going for a cigarette, so i can pollute your ozone.

[Amit]

so you think fusion power will have absolutely no negative effects if everything used it for the rest of humans exisistance?

considering the absolute worst thing a meltdown can produce is a little bit of water vapour

yeah pretty much

[Africa]

Lol we'll create technology that doesn't pollute.

But what you're saying doesn't support your main argument: resorting to animalism because that is "natural." And eliminating technology, which also isn't "natural."

[thickasabrick]

Just like cocaine was the miracle drug, right Amit?

[Amit]

Just like cocaine was the miracle drug, right Amit?

what does this have to do with a perfectly safe energy source

you still haven't answered any of my points so maybe it's you who is having trouble wrapping your head around some simple foundations of natural law

[GreyHam]

no, not really

[Africa]

Thick your argument in this thread went from sending troops to Iraq because life shouldn't have the value we currently place on it to denouncing technology because it destroys life wtf are you doing?

[thickasabrick]

what does this have to do with a perfectly safe energy source

Humans seem to think everything they invent is perfectly safe until it starts getting overused and bad things start to happen that they didn't forsee.

I mean, back in the middle ages everyone drank a really low alcohol form of beer because the alcohol kept them healthy. These days does anyone drink daily to stay healthy? No, we figured that didn't help us. We invented cold medicines like ephedrine, which actually screwed even more people when they became addicted and wired like meth heads.


All I'm getting at, is we need to stop thinking we are God's gift to the earth and that everything else is around just to serve our comfort. I'm not saying any more than that.

[Amit]

Humans seem to think everything they invent is perfectly safe until it starts getting overused and bad things start to happen that they didn't forsee.

I mean, back in the middle ages everyone drank a really low alcohol form of beer because the alcohol kept them healthy. These days does anyone drink daily to stay healthy? No, we figured that didn't help us. We invented cold medicines like ephedrine, which actually screwed even more people when they became addicted and wired like meth heads.

well no **** that hindsight is 20/20

but the stupidity of man to misuse his creations does not detract from the value of his creations

All I'm getting at, is we need to stop thinking we are God's gift to the earth and that everything else is around just to serve our comfort. I'm not saying any more than that.

no one said we're god's gift to earth and that everything else is around just to serve our comfort

quit changing your points and stick to one topic already thanks

[GreyHam]

Humans seem to think everything they invent is perfectly safe until it starts getting overused and bad things start to happen that they didn't forsee.

I mean, back in the middle ages everyone drank a really low alcohol form of beer because the alcohol kept them healthy. These days does anyone drink daily to stay healthy? No, we figured that didn't help us. We invented cold medicines like ephedrine, which actually screwed even more people when they became addicted and wired like meth heads.


All I'm getting at, is we need to stop thinking we are God's gift to the earth and that everything else is around just to serve our comfort. I'm not saying any more than that.

we are gods gift to earth. its all in the book

in all seriousness i can see your point in regards to polution etc but at no poin t have you offered any kind of alternative, and your argument completely lacks validity. somewhere in there, there is a point but...you should work on your debating skills more. maybe join a club

[thickasabrick]

quit changing your points and stick to one topic already thanks

Haha coming from you.


This isn't an argument, I'm not trying to say I'm right and you guys are wrong and you should all see life the way I do. I'm simply putting forth one perspective on life. People have opinions, deal with it.

[Amit]

This isn't an argument, I'm not trying to say I'm right and you guys are wrong and you should all see life the way I do. I'm simply putting forth one perspective on life. People have opinions, deal with it.

people have opinions

but when they are supported by little more than illogical thinking

those opinions are dumb as hell

[Africa]

All I'm getting at, is we need to stop thinking we are God's gift to the earth and that everything else is around just to serve our comfort. I'm not saying any more than that.

Survival of the fittest.

[thickasabrick]

Survival of the fittest eh? So if someone bigger and strong than you comes and breaks your neck, rapes your mom, and burns down the house will you just say "oh, survival of the fittest I suppose, can't blame him"

edit - Amit, the fact that you tried to put forth "the meaning to life" on the first page automatically vetos any opinoins you could possibly have. I've never met anyone with such a big head.

[Amit]

Survival of the fittest eh? So if someone bigger and strong than you comes and breaks your neck, rapes your mom, and burns down the house will you just say "oh, survival of the fittest I suppose, can't blame him"

that isn't survival of the fittest

take a half decent biology class and then come back here

[GreyHam]

Survival of the fittest eh? So if someone bigger and strong than you comes and breaks your neck, rapes your mom, and burns down the house will you just say "oh, survival of the fittest I suppose, can't blame him"

edit - Amit, the fact that you tried to put forth "the meaning to life" on the first page automatically vetos any opinoins you could possibly have. I've never met anyone with such a big head.

no, cos ill be dead. you absolute clown

[Amit]

edit - Amit, the fact that you tried to put forth "the meaning to life" on the first page automatically vetos any opinoins you could possibly have. I've never met anyone with such a big head.

and why is that

or is that a cheap copout for you so you don't have to worry about failing to address my big mean points

while we're on the topic of complaints, i've never met anyone with such abstruseness and complete lack of scientific knowledge/common sense

unless you're a fundamentalist christian

then it all makes sense

[thickasabrick]

unless you're a fundamentalist christian

then it all makes sense

Haha talk about ignorance.

And no, for the record, I do not believe in the Christian god.

[GreyHam]

why ignorance

[Amit]

Haha talk about ignorance.

more copouts

And no, for the record, I do not believe in the Christian god.

well you have demonstrated about all the total scientific knowledge that a fundie ever has in this thread

please prove me wrong with something that actually makes sense

[Africa]

Thick just tell us what you are arguing about.

[thickasabrick]

What am I trying to prove you wrong about Amit? You guys totally missed the point of this thread and now you are just arguing about nothing.

Thick just tell us what you are arguing about.


This isn't an argument, I'm not trying to say I'm right and you guys are wrong and you should all see life the way I do. I'm simply putting forth one perspective on life. People have opinions, deal with it.

[Amit]

What am I trying to prove you wrong about Amit? You guys totally missed the point of this thread and now you are just arguing about nothing.

right now you have proven absolutely nothing

anyway you changed the points multiple times when your half assed logic was reduced to nothing multiple times

so how about you tell me what the point of this thread really is other than making you look like a complete dimwit

[Africa]

You hardly provided a point, provide it now.

[GreyHam]

why provide an opinion if it wasnt something u wanted to discuss

and everyone elses point is littered throughout this thread, mostly in contradiction to whatever youve said

[thickasabrick]

right now you have proven absolutely nothing

I'm not trying to prove anything. You guys keep arguing and asking for proof when everything I wanted to say I said in my first post. Is that too hard to comprehend? I didn't say I had the answer to all lifes problems.

Africa, read my first post.

[Africa]

Africa, read my first post.

What's the point of this thread then? Thanks for your opinion I guess...

[Amit]

I'm not trying to prove anything. You guys keep arguing and asking for proof when everything I wanted to say I said in my first post. Is that too hard to comprehend? I didn't say I had the answer to all lifes problems.

if you aren't trying to prove anything

if you don't want to engage in meaningful discussion

and if you had all of your points in your first post addressed and apparently conceded as well

what's the point of this thread?

[thickasabrick]

What's the point of this thread then? Thanks for your opinion I guess...

YOU'RE WELCOME!!!!

Good lord some of you have problems.

[Amit]

YOU'RE WELCOME!!!!

Good lord some of you have problems.

if you want to post idiotic and misconceived rants

but feel no need to defend your opinion

please do it in the pit thanks

[GreyHam]

if you want to just post your thoughts then....get a blog, but this is a discussion board

[thickasabrick]

You know, I was hoping we could have an intelligent discussion but I can see that most of you aren't just up for it yet.

If one more person asks for my point I'm gonna leave this thread because I've restated my point in several forms throughout this thread.

[GreyHam]

we did have an intelligent discussion. but a minute ago you said that you didnt want to have a discussion, now your saying....

oooh make up your mind

[Amit]

how can we have an intelligent discussion if all you have been is anything but intelligent

your point has been addressed already so if you don't have anything left to say please stop crying

[Africa]

Lol multiple pages of nothingness.

[tumples]

i am so confused

[GreyHam]

thats ok, its just 5 pages of waste of time

[Apollyon]

No developed nation is overpopulated.

But good try.

Yeah I guess China is like a billion people under it's limit.

I agree with the TS's rant/points, but unfortunately natural selection isn't applicable because too many people believe in species superiority and the extension of the human lifespan.

[sweboy]

If you actually want to make a point against keeping sick people alive (or survival of the unfit, if you will), it could be that curing diseases and thus letting diseased people spread their genes in the long run could lead to an overall less healthy human gene pool and thus overall less healthy humans - in order words, curing hereditary diseases can possibly lead to a lot of misery for other people in future. But it's not like it's a problem at the moment anyway.

[Amit]

Yeah I guess China is like a billion people under it's limit.

I agree with the TS's rant/points, but unfortunately natural selection isn't applicable because too many people believe in species superiority and the extension of the human lifespan.

wait how can you agree with the ts's rant/points

[Apollyon]

wait how can you agree with the ts's rant/points

Amit you know I'm not good at this explanation business. :(

Here goes though..

I don't support the idea of curing every disease known to man (see Akrit Jaswal for clarification), and I don't support the idea of extending the human lifespan by unnatural, medical means. I also don't support the idea of using life support to keep comatose or quadriplegic patients alive. I don't believe in spending thousands of dollars and months worth of resources to attempt to reverse someone's cancer, and I don't believe in spending billions of dollars to send food to starving African nations who's populous will never see most of that food anyway because their warlords enjoy the majority of it.

Sure it's a little hypocritical because it's not like I've never gone willingly to the doctor, but I do think that we're headed for a whole new cesspool of diseases and problems by curing everything we can at the moment.

[Amit]

so basically

you want people to die now instead of later

oh ok

Sure it's a little hypocritical because it's not like I've never gone willingly to the doctor, but I do think that we're headed for a whole new cesspool of diseases and problems by curing everything we can at the moment.

and then those future diseases and problems will be addressed just like the present ones are going to be addressed

that's adaptation and evolution for you

[lunchforthesky]

No one will take this seriosuly because you sound like Charles Manson.

Pack up your stuff and go live in the forest if you dont like society.

[Apollyon]

so basically

you want people to die now instead of later

oh ok

Yeah basically. If I suffer some sort of injury that requires me to be revived/put on life support, I don't want them to waste their time. It's just my own views.

and then those future diseases and problems will be addressed just like the present ones are going to be addressed

that's adaptation and evolution for you

The evolution of medical technology is constantly undermined by the evolution of warfare and weapons technology. It's an ever uphill battle, and I just think all that money could be spent improving the overall living conditions of most communities/countries/etc.. than improving ways to cure the diseases that are spawned by said living conditions.

[Amit]

Yeah basically. If I suffer some sort of injury that requires me to be revived/put on life support, I don't want them to waste their time. It's just my own views.

i agree with you on that one

but you also included quite a few other points that i can't at all agree with

The evolution of medical technology is constantly undermined by the evolution of warfare and weapons technology. It's an ever uphill battle, and I just think all that money could be spent improving the overall living conditions of most communities/countries/etc.. than improving ways to cure the diseases that are spawned by said living conditions.

life is and always will be an uphill battle

you can't improve living conditions without addressing public health issues first

people can't improve infrastructure or the world around them in general if they are diseased or dead

[Smokey D]

War is natural. Ants have wars, they are one of the very few warring animals/insects. Is that a surprise? If I recall correctly, they are the most populous species on earth. War is a natural way for population control.

It's not war unless the combatants are capable of understanding its war.

[White Riot!]

Why is there such a high value placed on the life of an individual? Seriously. I think nature has its way of dealing with things, and humans are ****ing it up big time.

Let me put it this way. As my mother was birthing my older brother, she needed a blood transfusion or she would have died. Now, of course all of you say "thank god she got that transfusion" or else she woulda died, my brother wouldn't have been born, and then me and my sister wouldn't have been born.

But then you look at all the food we've wasted, all the pollution and garbage we've put back into the earth/atmosphere, all the energy we use, all that sorta stuff. Sure I'm glad my mom lived because then I was born, but who the hell cares about us as individuals.

Humans need to stop playing god. There is death for a reason. There is disease/illness and wars and murder for a reason. Diseases are one of natures many tools for population controls. If humans hadn't started cheating diseases with medicine, the world wouldn't be so overpopulated and there wouldn't be so much hunger and poverty in the world, there wouldn't be such a seperation between the rich and the poor.

War is natural. Ants have wars, they are one of the very few warring animals/insects. Is that a surprise? If I recall correctly, they are the most populous species on earth. War is a natural way for population control.

Yes, Bush is sending more troops to the war. Good, America is overpopulated as it is. All the polution they are spilling into the world is going to make it very unpleasant for our grandchildren.

So quit being so selfish and think about the entire earth, not just humans as individuals who are the supreme beings on this earth. We cut down trees just because we wanna write **** down? How selfish!

Rant over.

Are you a christian?

The reason the individual life should be cherished is because when people who run the place dont value life , they end up turning into a stalin , hitler , saddam(lol) , milosevic or whatever.

Can I suggest gas chambers as a solution to worlds overpopulation?

[Smokey D]

That's a stupid and irrelevant question.

[White Riot!]

That's a stupid and irrelevant question.

its called extreme sarcasm. Its not a question but a point in itself.

[Smokey D]

It's not very good sarcasm, unless you're somehow implying Christians disagree with individual life, which just makes you stupid.

[Mr. Ron]

You guys are still seeing life from the "humans should be made as comfortable and happy as possible at the cost of everything else in nature"

I mean, think of antibacterial soap. Bacteria have just as much of a right to live as humans do. It's illegal to go around murdering dogs, why the hell do we think we can murder bacteria? It's because we don't think we need bacteria, yet we do. We need bacteria a lot more than we need dogs.

You guys will understand someday hopefully.

Except leaving bacteria on us will result in negative health effects. So us killing them is just.

Just like killing a attacked in self defense. You will be harmed if you do not eliminate the threat.

No sir, that's murder. :thumb:

You moron.


You killed bugs everyday without even knowing it. I'm calling the police!


Do you bathe? You're killing billions of living bacteria and the like. You monster!

[Aaron]

I think I agree with you to a degree, TS. Medicine has increased our environmental impact however, the world is built to cope with it, IMO. When we become too much to world'll become unlivable and cull us down and then will replenish. Just like how species have died off before us, so will humanity eventually.

[Mr. Ron]

And is that a good thing? Sure it helped increase the survival rate of humans. But at the expense of basically everything else in nature. This is what I've been trying to say and you can't seem to wrap your heads around it.

Humans are a part of nature. There's no such thing as "unnatural". So really, whatever we do as humans is considered part of nature.


Ok, here's a scenario. Your mom and dad are very elderly and you're taking cae of them. You love them dearly. By some freak occurrence, both of them develop cancer and need kemo therapy in order to survive. Would you deny your own blood the things that will keep them alive?

[Aaron]

I think it should be a decision made by the person who is sick, not by their family. Like in Soilent Green, people should recognise if they're a burden. I do not support people dying for a no reason, but the onus should be on them, not the carer.

[Mr. Ron]

I think it should be a decision made by the person who is sick, not by their family. Like in Soilent Green, people should recognise if they're a burden. I do not support people dying for a no reason, but the onus should be on them, not the carer.

Ok, the parents want Kemo.

[CrossTheBreeze]

No developed nation is overpopulated.

But good try.
your posts make me crack up.

[CrossTheBreeze]

You guys will understand someday hopefully.
Whoa dude..... chill with the arrogance.

[Petros]

I fail to see how this thread fits the criteria of serious discussion.

But whatever.

[CrossTheBreeze]

This isn't an argument, I'm not trying to say I'm right and you guys are wrong and you should all see life the way I do. I'm simply putting forth one perspective on life. People have opinions, deal with it.
you should try listening to other peoples opinions for change. Who knows you might change your view on certain aspects.

How can you advance in any way as a human being if ignore everything others tell you?

[CrossTheBreeze]

Yeah basically. If I suffer some sort of injury that requires me to be revived/put on life support, I don't want them to waste their time. It's just my own views.
I like the fact that there are people willing to "waste their time" inorder to help their fellow man.

[AmericanWeiner]

Why is there such a high value placed on the life of an individual? Seriously. I think nature has its way of dealing with things, and humans are ****ing it up big time.

We are part nature. It's impossible to say humans are ruining nature because nature by definition A) states that everything we do is part of the natural way of things and definition B) states that as soon as humans enter the equation it is no longer natural and thus is not nature ruined because it is no longer nature at all.


Let me put it this way. As my mother was birthing my older brother, she needed a blood transfusion or she would have died. Now, of course all of you say "thank god she got that transfusion" or else she woulda died, my brother wouldn't have been born, and then me and my sister wouldn't have been born.

Yes it's good that she got that.


But then you look at all the food we've wasted, all the pollution and garbage we've put back into the earth/atmosphere, all the energy we use, all that sorta stuff. Sure I'm glad my mom lived because then I was born, but who the hell cares about us as individuals.

We have not wasted anything. We simply process energy. It'd be like saying plants waste the Sun's energy by consuming it. All of the pollution in the world isn't change the entirety of the world that much at all.


Humans need to stop playing god. There is death for a reason.


That reason is that the body stops functioning. Death has no purpose.


There is disease/illness and wars and murder for a reason.


There are diseases and illness because they have evolved and have an advantageous way of reproducing.

There is war because diplomacy cannot divide the planet according to everyone's wishes and force is agreed upon as a universal problem solver. It has nothing to do with population control.

Murder has to do with psychology disturbance, often emotions or disorders, or even accidents in some cases.


Diseases are one of natures many tools for population controls.


No. Diseases are no different than humans. There is a close parallel in that diseases kill to survive and humans kill to survive. It's about survival. Nature is not some sentient beast that employs these mechanisms to control the unnatural.


If humans hadn't started cheating diseases with medicine, the world wouldn't be so overpopulated and there wouldn't be so much hunger and poverty in the world, there wouldn't be such a seperation between the rich and the poor.

The world isn't that overpopulated. There is hunger and poverty because of wealth distribution problems, not population. The last statement is absolutely not true because civilizations developed class distinctions before they invented modern medicine.


War is natural. Ants have wars, they are one of the very few warring animals/insects. Is that a surprise? If I recall correctly, they are the most populous species on earth. War is a natural way for population control.


Fighting is natural among most species. War is simply organized fighting. Ants are one of the few species that are organized- most hive-insects have wars. However, it isn't for population control, it's for the spoils of war. It works the same for humans. War is a gamble at getting something that isn't yours or protecting something that is by comparing brute force.


Yes, Bush is sending more troops to the war. Good, America is overpopulated as it is. All the polution they are spilling into the world is going to make it very unpleasant for our grandchildren.


50,000 people isn't going to change much, even if they all died. We would surpass that loss in a few years.


So quit being so selfish and think about the entire earth, not just humans as individuals who are the supreme beings on this earth. We cut down trees just because we wanna write **** down? How selfish!

Rant over.

Writing is the only way that Earth can have a history.

[Swill_Merchant]

Why is there such a high value placed on the life of an individual? Seriously. I think nature has its way of dealing with things, and humans are ****ing it up big time.

Let me put it this way. As my mother was birthing my older brother, she needed a blood transfusion or she would have died. Now, of course all of you say "thank god she got that transfusion" or else she woulda died, my brother wouldn't have been born, and then me and my sister wouldn't have been born.

But then you look at all the food we've wasted, all the pollution and garbage we've put back into the earth/atmosphere, all the energy we use, all that sorta stuff. Sure I'm glad my mom lived because then I was born, but who the hell cares about us as individuals.

Humans need to stop playing god. There is death for a reason. There is disease/illness and wars and murder for a reason. Diseases are one of natures many tools for population controls. If humans hadn't started cheating diseases with medicine, the world wouldn't be so overpopulated and there wouldn't be so much hunger and poverty in the world, there wouldn't be such a seperation between the rich and the poor.

War is natural. Ants have wars, they are one of the very few warring animals/insects. Is that a surprise? If I recall correctly, they are the most populous species on earth. War is a natural way for population control.

Yes, Bush is sending more troops to the war. Good, America is overpopulated as it is. All the polution they are spilling into the world is going to make it very unpleasant for our grandchildren.

So quit being so selfish and think about the entire earth, not just humans as individuals who are the supreme beings on this earth. We cut down trees just because we wanna write **** down? How selfish!

Rant over.

Wow..... I agree with parts of this. But what if it was your life?

[White Riot!]

It's not very good sarcasm, unless you're somehow implying Christians disagree with individual life, which just makes you stupid.

Its up to you to interpet the point , and if you interpret the point stupidly then you must be stupid yourself in turn

[Rabbi]

Your extremely inconsistant, and a looser.

[MattSharpIsCool]

Elk are brown because they live in the forest, surrounded by brown ground and brown tree trunks. Elk developed antlers to fend off would be predators. Elk will wander from their normal territory in the winter to find food to eat.

It's called adapting. Humans, having a much larger mental capacity than elk, adapt on a much larger scale. Humans adapting to the threat of a disease is no different than an elk adapting to have brown fur. It happens all throughout nature. Why should certain animals be allowed to adapt and evolve, but not humans?

There is disease/illness and wars and murder for a reason.

If you really want to get into it, could you possibly classify war and murder as an act of God? Diseases and illnesses are from nature, and are out of our control. But humans make a conscious choice to engage in warfare or murder someone. So, in your sense, it is "unnatural".

[Danger Bird]

I look at our ability to intervene, or "play god" as a part of nature. Humans are animals just like anything else, and building a skyscraper is like ants building an anthill.

You talked about garbage and pollution, but in the cosmic sense, who cares about earth?

Who cares about anything?

[Smokey D]

Its up to you to interpet the point , and if you interpret the point stupidly then you must be stupid yourself in turn

No. Your point might just be stupid.

Knowing you, I'm pretty sure which one it is.

[PerpetualBurn]

You guys are still seeing life from the "humans should be made as comfortable and happy as possible at the cost of everything else in nature"

Right...here we go.

If you wish to lower all forms of life to the same fundamental level, then you don't get to argue that we should harm nothing. Our existence MUST infringe on the right to life of plants and animals and bacteria and whatever other living crap you wish to give a "right to life" (as absurd a concept as that is) to.

So, when a bacteria is killing a person, I have a choice. Kill the person. Kill the bacteria.

Since the two forms of life are considered by you to be equally valid, it's essentially just our personal preference that gets saved.

And you really have no basis to argue that our personal preference is wrong, because there are a lot of reasons to prefer humans over bacteria, but the total number of infringements of life will be equal.

If you wish to have a complete state of nature, then you don't get to argue that humans should make way for anything.

[thickasabrick]

Oh jeez I forgot about this thread. Anyways, I wasn't exactly serious for the better part of my posts. I was just trying to elicit a reaction and I can tell that most of you caught onto that.

The thing about bacteria was entirely a joke, I'll admit that. Mods can close this thread if they want to, but I'm sure someone can make a decent conversation out of it if they want to.

For those of you who are still asking for "my point," I'm saying that humans need to slow down and think about longevity, not maximizing comfort for those that can afford it right now.

It's like how farmers don't farm the field for a year, so the soil doesn't become overworked - sure you'd think life would be hard going a year without crops, but in the long run you've saved your crops from certain doom by not overworking the field.

It's the same with people using cars, sure it helps out life right now but all the bad **** it's doing to the animals and their ecosystems and our ecosystems. I think saying "oh well we'll deal with it when it happens" isn't the right way of thinking. In overpopulated cities so many people are having health complications from all the pollution from cars. More and more people start driving cars every day, the population is rising. Eventually it's just gonna hit its limit and we'll be done in some way or another.

Some other countries might be different, but Canada is diggin itself into a pretty big hole right now. Reports for the last few years have shown that as of 2006 we have 9 more years of natural gas in Canada, which means after 9 years we are gonna all freeze to death in this -40 weather unless everyone can afford to buy natural gas from other countries at like triple the cost. Everyones ignoring the fact that we need natural gas to heat our homes - no families I've talked to have looked into alternate sources for heating their homes...and the best reports only suggested we "keep a stock of food in case of an epidemic."

Just to pause, I really liked Danger Birds post up there. And American Weiner good job - I'll address some of your points after I get back from work and when I'm done my schoolwork. Probably later tonight.

I'll keep going with this later tonight. You guys can pick apart this post in the meantime, I'll see what I can do. As most of you can tell, I'm not thinking most of this out clearly right now, but I think we can reach some sort of consensus about this.

One last thing, about "man is part of nature" - yes, I totally agree. Our cars and buildings and all that is still a part of nature. But nature always has a way of dealing with things that are throwing off the balance. We've already seen a lot of the effects with global warming, ice caps melting, severe increases in droughts, fires, tropical storms etc. But just think in the next 50 years how much worse things will get. Face it, humans got greedy and upset the balance and nature will find ways to get rid of us to restore the balance.

[Africa]

I thought this thread was done a long time ago, did you actually formulate a point or what?

[the_green_bastard]

Why is there such a high value placed on the life of an individual? Seriously. I think nature has its way of dealing with things, and humans are ****ing it up big time.

Let me put it this way. As my mother was birthing my older brother, she needed a blood transfusion or she would have died. Now, of course all of you say "thank god she got that transfusion" or else she woulda died, my brother wouldn't have been born, and then me and my sister wouldn't have been born.

But then you look at all the food we've wasted, all the pollution and garbage we've put back into the earth/atmosphere, all the energy we use, all that sorta stuff. Sure I'm glad my mom lived because then I was born, but who the hell cares about us as individuals.

Humans need to stop playing god. There is death for a reason. There is disease/illness and wars and murder for a reason. Diseases are one of natures many tools for population controls. If humans hadn't started cheating diseases with medicine, the world wouldn't be so overpopulated and there wouldn't be so much hunger and poverty in the world, there wouldn't be such a seperation between the rich and the poor.

War is natural. Ants have wars, they are one of the very few warring animals/insects. Is that a surprise? If I recall correctly, they are the most populous species on earth. War is a natural way for population control.

Yes, Bush is sending more troops to the war. Good, America is overpopulated as it is. All the polution they are spilling into the world is going to make it very unpleasant for our grandchildren.

So quit being so selfish and think about the entire earth, not just humans as individuals who are the supreme beings on this earth. We cut down trees just because we wanna write **** down? How selfish!

Rant over.

Well, we make paper out of trees because hemp is illegal - a selfish action of those in government, and those working within the lengthly list of industries directly threatened by widespread use of the plant. We are individualists because our brains have evolved into larger reflections of our more primitive ancestors, allowing more intricate interactions between individuals and allowing us to work together to create this great human empire of ours. This is nature's way. It seems to me that the desire to end the selfishness of others is something borne to self-righteousness and selfishness. The most selfless way to exist is to cease the desire to forcefully intervene in the lives of others and live in harmony with one another, and with nature. To argue "selfishness" against those who would oppose war is the purest of selfishness, and a waste of human life - something we are all programmed to preserve in ourselves, and within others in our great global tribe. We humans are above arguing that "something is natural, therefore we should do it," because we are highly intelligent creatures compared to our neighbours - we can concieve of, and therefore we can integrate and evolve into, less wasteful and less violent ways of life, and truly work together to eliminate human selfishness, and do so on a more meaningful level than by the force of an arrogant intellectual minority.

[StrawberryFieldsForever]

We're born.

We live.

We die?

Can't do much comin outta the vagina can't do much goin into the white light, so why not try to do as much as you can inbetween? Honestly, just stop thinking about life, and live it. As long as your not hurting anybody, who gives a rats @$$

And to some other comments:

Canada is dealing with global warming...atleast where I am it is...I dunno if ur in some big fancy city like Toronto or something, but in the last couple years, every single building that has gone up where I live have been among some of the most energy efficient buildings in the world. All the new houses are extremely energy efficient. A new skyscraper thats going up downtown is planned to be the most energy efficient large building in North America (which makes sense, it's being made by the company who controls all of the provinces power).

People need cars. I know some people abuse cars...it's not a big deal to bike to a friends house or something on a nice summer day, but people drive anyway...but the bottom line is millions, probably billions, of people need cars to get to work everyday. If they couldn't drive to work, they'd go poor, and die. Are you saying you want us to die on a large scale?

But cars as a problem isn't entirely our fault. Research should have started a long time ago on energy efficient cars that are actually cheap and available to the masses.

And who knows...maybe it REALLY is all a conspiracy between the oil companies and the government to keep us using gas.

Who cares. Buy a hybrid car and don't worry about it if it's such a big deal to you. If you can't affors a hybrid car, take a bus or subway, or ride a bike, or hell, even a dogsled, there's no laws against riding a dogsled down a sidewalk.

And turn your damn computer off. Your wasting power which is just attributing to the worlds power crisis more for your own comfort.

[sexymuffin]

tbh everything that we do is natural so idk what you're saying when you say killing is natural

so is survival

[MattSharpIsCool]

Instead of driving cars, ride horses. Or mules if you're poor and can't afford a horse. I think thats a good plan.

Hey man, I hear there's this car, and it runs on water man.

[StrawberryFieldsForever]

Hey man, I hear there's this car, and it runs on water man.

Holy **** you gotta be kidding me!

[Rabbi]

I've seen a video of it somewhere. I think it was on the news, too. They do something with the individual molecules and electrons and protons and it's way to sciency for me to understand.

[Light Fantastic]

how about they convert the water to oxygen and hydrogen

and wow hydrogen is combustible so what do you think happens then

[spitfirejunky]

Well, fuel cell techonology does it the other way around since the formation of water is exothermic.