Time signatures...

[wes_jett2008]

I was'nt sure were to post this so I put it here as im guessing time signatures are a advanced thing.

I need help,I dont know a thing at all about time signatures,4/4 is about all I have and I really dont even know what that means...I play mainly by feel and learn songs mostly by ear,but I want to expand my knowlege to some technical things.

Can someone explain time signatures for me...in english,or give me a few examples of songs with odd time sigs.

Thanks

[Futuro]

First/top number = how many
last /bottom number = what kind of note

9/8 = 9, 8th notes till the measure finishes.
7/16 = 7, 16th notes till the measure finishes.

This should not really be in advanced.

[wes_jett2008]

Yeah sorry about that...I just was'nt sure where to put it.I have'nt seen to many beginers who know about TS's so I dunno.

I think I get it alittle bit im just currious to learn more.

[Futuro]

Go listen/dissect king crimson =)

Maybe pick up the albums discipline, and three of a perfect pair.

Alot of prog rock bands use odd meter. So ya...start listening to that I guess <shrug>

[London Prophet]

Using commonly known songs for an idea of TS's:

4/4 (most rock)
Cream - Sunshine of your love
Elvis Presley - Jailhouse Rock

6/8 (rock ballads or other ballads)
Queen - We are the champions
The Animals - House of the Rising Sun

3/4
The mars Volta - Inertiatic Esp

7/4
Pink Floyd - Money for Nothing
Porcupine Tree - The Sound of Muzak (chorus in 4/4)
Soundgarden - Spoonman

5/4
Led Zeppelin - Four Sticks (Also sneaks in 6/8 measures regularly)
David Brubeck - Take 5

5/8
Sting - Seven Days

8/8
Radiohead - Pyramid Song (not 4/4 since the phrasing doesn't fit the beats of 4/4 .... this is a compound time signature made up of 3/8+2/8+3/8)

13/8
The Stranglers - Golden Brown (soon changes to 6/8)

15/8
Soulfly - Son Song (split as 4/4+7/8)
Mike Oldfield - Tubular Bells

Couldn't find anymore quickly in my collection

[Josiah]

Top number is how many.

Bottom number is what gets the beat (pulse).



*Sting - Seven Days is in 5/4. It has a 3:2 pattern on the hats making it feel real nice an even though...

[Damo]

wes - Unfortunately there is no easy way, and Id rather you learnt the 'right' way, which involves a knowledge of note theory in general. This of course, takes time.

If you are indeed keen to learn time signatures, book yourself in for some lessons with a private instructor. Youll learn a lot quicker that way and not miss something that may be important later.

[maniac0796]

I've always seen time sigs as a shift in paradigm on how the overall measure is played. Dunno if that made sense

Here's some basic (well, the 6/8 and 7/8 ones are, the 5/4 might take a bit of getting use to) grooves in some more common time signatures. Bear in mind the 6/8 one can be counted as 3/4, i just find it easier to work out in 6/8

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/fbb_maniac/timesignaturegrooves.gif

[Futuro]

Top number is how many.

Bottom number is what gets the beat (pulse).



*Sting - Seven Days is in 5/4. It has a 3:2 pattern on the hats making it feel real nice an even though...
:o Oops, heehee. I guess I worded that wrong.

I think I have lysdexia guys :angry:

[wes_jett2008]

lol I am dyslexic..woot.

But thanks damo,but I would rather not get private lessons.I seem to learn better on my own and from books,Im not to great at listening to someone and doing as they say.I have gotten to where I am now by myself and I get compliments on my playing all the time so im happy.But I will go buy a few books on the subject though.

thanks guys.

[Damo]

No worries wes...

Just remember, its usually easier to be shown the door than to have to look for it all the time! :)

[White]

whats the actual point in the time sig??? just so we don't have to say, "k this has 4 quaternote values in it???? and also ,does the time sig affect the way the song is to be played?????

[London Prophet]

*Sting - Seven Days is in 5/4. It has a 3:2 pattern on the hats making it feel real nice an even though...

You could argue 5/8 just as well. There is a 4th beat snare (which is odd for 5/4, but makes more sense in 5/8).

I will grant that the double time hi-hats would swing in the 5/4 direction (because quavers in x/4 make more sense than semiquavers in x/8)

Also for 5/8 argument it can be heard as 6/8 minus a quaver (4th beat snare is consistent, add a quaver rest and the song would not sound "bizarre"), but not 4/4 plus a beat a crotchet.

[London Prophet]

whats the actual point in the time sig??? just so we don't have to say, "k this has 4 quaternote values in it???? and also ,does the time sig affect the way the song is to be played?????

Time signatures (and therefore "bars of music") explain the phrasing of a song and allow the musician to see where the natural "beat" of the song lies.

[DrummingBen]

and also ,does the time sig affect the way the song is to be played?????

Not completely sure how it applies to drumming but I know form my cello training that in 6/8 or similar the basic feel is kinda swing, like dotted 1/4 then 1/8, two pairs of them making up a bar.

Sorry if that confused people:)

[Metallicious]

/off topic
quick question here how to you guys determine the timing for a song?
do you count the number of times the drummer hits the hi-hat?
confused...

[DrummingBen]

Metallicious its kinda just the way the song feels. Counting hi hats is not really reliable. You just learn to hear where the accents are and thats the beginning of the bar, then you just count the beats.

Oh fudge it, someone else explain it.

[Retarded Chipple]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signatures


That was difficult wasn't it?

[Josiah]

You could argue 5/8 just as well. There is a 4th beat snare (which is odd for 5/4, but makes more sense in 5/8).

I will grant that the double time hi-hats would swing in the 5/4 direction (because quavers in x/4 make more sense than semiquavers in x/8)

Also for 5/8 argument it can be heard as 6/8 minus a quaver (4th beat snare is consistent, add a quaver rest and the song would not sound "bizarre"), but not 4/4 plus a beat a crotchet.

No think about it.. If it was 5/8, then it would be a 2 bar groove, with a 4 bar over the bar line phrase! With the backbeat every other bar?!
I think you need to go review and study some basic music theory.

Cause that just doesn't make any sense.


The song is DEFFINETLY in 5. Later on vinnie goes to putting quarter notes on the kick.

[Charlie Manson]

Top number is how many.

Bottom number is what gets the beat (pulse).

Only in simple time. In compund time this isn't the case.

[Metallicious]

hey thanks for the reply d.ben and r.chipple,appreciate it.
I see. Because I really get confused whether it's a 4/4 rock beat or something else. Like ac/dc-back in black and you shook me all night long. The timing is different and i couldn't figure it out.

[NewMetman]

^ Im pretty sure all, if not most of AC/DC is in 4/4, but i know what you mean, when i started drumming, that one part in shook me all night long threw me off too

[Kosmos Tree]

http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/html/id15_en.html

That's a useful link if you have troubles with time signatures.

[Mirror.Circuit]

Using commonly known songs for an idea of TS's:

4/4 (most rock)
Cream - Sunshine of your love
Elvis Presley - Jailhouse Rock

6/8 (rock ballads or other ballads)
Queen - We are the champions
The Animals - House of the Rising Sun

3/4
The mars Volta - Inertiatic Esp

7/4
Pink Floyd - Money for Nothing
Porcupine Tree - The Sound of Muzak (chorus in 4/4)
Soundgarden - Spoonman

5/4
Led Zeppelin - Four Sticks (Also sneaks in 6/8 measures regularly)
David Brubeck - Take 5

5/8
Sting - Seven Days

8/8
Radiohead - Pyramid Song (not 4/4 since the phrasing doesn't fit the beats of 4/4 .... this is a compound time signature made up of 3/8+2/8+3/8)

13/8
The Stranglers - Golden Brown (soon changes to 6/8)

15/8
Soulfly - Son Song (split as 4/4+7/8)
Mike Oldfield - Tubular Bells

Couldn't find anymore quickly in my collection

that's actually the dire straits.

[London Prophet]

No think about it.. If it was 5/8, then it would be a 2 bar groove, with a 4 bar over the bar line phrase! With the backbeat every other bar?!
I think you need to go review and study some basic music theory.

Cause that just doesn't make any sense.


The song is DEFFINETLY in 5. Later on vinnie goes to putting quarter notes on the kick.

Hold up. We're counting the same speed of 5 here (I'm not counting twice as fast), but I'm calling those beats quavers not crotchets.

If it was 5/8 there is no reason for it to be a two bar groove, each bar is distinct, exactly as it is in 5/4.

The song makes a lot more sense as 6/8 minus a beat, than it does as straight 5/4. Add a 1/8 beat rest on the end of each bar (assuming each bar is 5/8) and it doesn't lose its feel. It's 3+2 feel would even look nice written as 6/8 minus a beat (i.e. 5/8).

The "go review basic theory" is a terrible way of making a case (and a little childish)

<b>Mirror Circuit</b>
I meant Money by Pink Floyd, not Money for Nothing by DS, but well spotted anyway.

[Josiah]

Hold up. We're counting the same speed of 5 here (I'm not counting twice as fast), but I'm calling those beats quavers not crotchets.

If it was 5/8 there is no reason for it to be a two bar groove, each bar is distinct, exactly as it is in 5/4.

The song makes a lot more sense as 6/8 minus a beat, than it does as straight 5/4. Add a 1/8 beat rest on the end of each bar (assuming each bar is 5/8) and it doesn't lose its feel. It's 3+2 feel would even look nice written as 6/8 minus a beat (i.e. 5/8).

The "go review basic theory" is a terrible way of making a case (and a little childish)


No, you obviouslly need to review basic math and music theory. It's not childish, or an insult. It's just what is.. look -


The groove for 7 days has a single backbeat, every TEN 8th notes. TEN.

If you make the groove 5/8, then you get a single backbeat every 2 bars. And the hi-hat's are playing syncopated 32nds! Wich would resolve every 4 bars!

Not only that but there is a HUGE drop on the 1. The kick drum plays the 1, the backbeat is on the 4. It's a pesudo half time 5/4. It's the 2:3 thing that really brings it all together and smoothes it out.

The 1 is MASSIVE heavy in that song, the lil melody riffs, etc...

The groove is genius enough that most people think it's in 4/4!



It just makes no sense at all. Nobody who understood time signatures and basic music theory would say the things you do. It's not childish, or ment as an insult. It just is.
A tricky groove, but deffinetly in 5/4. There's just a huge amount of quarter note, and dotted quarter note phrasing going on. Big hits on the 1 of every bar, and a strong quarter note pulse (vinnie even goes to a 5 on the floor groove), additionally the use of syncopated 16th notes on the hi-hat. Etc

Here's Vinnie with a quick clip talkin bout the groove -


ModernDrummer - Let's talk about "Seven Days." It's in five, but the listener isn't really struck by that. Was it intentional to mask it a little?

VC - Yes and no. It wasn't so much to disguise it for the sake of disguising it. I phrased it by playing over the bar line, so the hi-hat pattern resolves every two bars. That smoothes it out and gives it a regularity that 4/4 has.


Here is a (crummy quality) transcription of the solo vinnie takes at the end.
http://groove-e.tripod.com/Seven_Days_Solo.jpg

You can see the structure of 5, the quarter notes, and a lil bit of the man groove in there.

[Ollie The Drumming Legend]

5/8 and 5/4 are pretty much the same thing, esp. if it's got a 3 then 2 phrasing. Pointless argument. The only reason you would write in one rather than the other is if you're composing and you want the performer to phrase in a certain way, or it's easier to notate (e.g. quavers are easier to write than semiquavers), or it fits better with the tempo marking (e.g. having a crotchet = 80-95 makes more sense than a crotchet = 40-47.5 or a quaver = 80-95).

That said, I now REALLY want to hear the song and possibly learn it (unless it's insanely difficult, but I'm up for a challenge).

[London Prophet]

I can't see the image - it's hosted on tripod.

Here's a 5/8 writing of the first two bars of Seven Days.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/londonprophet/sevendays.jpg

[The Jolly Pakistani]

The one thing that cracked time sigs wide open for me, was realizing that every (whole) number (that isn't 1) can be broken down to a combination of twos and threes. If one is constructing a song, these sets of twos and threes add up to form the time sig.

For instance, I count Brubeck's Take Five: 1 2 3 1 2
I count Pink Floyd's Money : 1 2 3 1 2 1 2

Looks kinda weird even to me, but it works when I do it :p