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Hababi
01-04-2007, 04:31 PM
A court-ordered psychiatric evaluation is to be completed this week on Jose Padilla, the American held without charge for nearly four years as an enemy combatant. Whatever the judge decides, the Padilla case is an extraordinary legal saga that poses significant difficulties for the government.



'A PR Guy's Nightmare'

The question for the Bush administration was how to inform the American people. Although the White House would later tell reporters that Ashcroft had blundered ahead on his own, Corallo says the president's staff insisted the attorney general make the announcement, rejecting arguments from Corallo and others that with Ashcroft in Moscow, it would be a logistical and public relations nightmare. The next morning, the White House changed its mind, says Corallo. But Ashcroft was already in the studio. Corallo says events unfolded like "a slow-motion moment" when you "knock your mother's best china off the table."

"This is a PR guy's nightmare," he says. "The cup is off the table, headed to the floor, as the attorney general appears on the television screen with this eerie pink-orange background that made you think of nuclear holocaust."

Ashcroft declared, "We have disrupted an unfolding terrorist plot to attack the United States by exploding a radioactive dirty bomb."

Padilla would not be seen by any civilian again for two years.

He was held incommunicado at the Navy brig in Charleston, S.C., until his case reached the Supreme Court. In June of 2004, the high court ruled in a companion case that no American could be held without charge, without access to counsel and without some due process of law. Padilla's case, however, was sent back to the lower courts on procedural grounds.

'The Pathology of Group Decision-Making'

Inside the Bush administration, the question was what to do now. Top Justice Department officials warned that if the case went back to the Supreme Court, the administration would almost certainly lose. But according to knowledgeable sources, key players in the Defense Department and in Vice President Cheney's office insisted that the power to detain Americans as enemy combatants had to be preserved. So the administration went back to the lower courts to defend Padilla's detention. By now, though, all mention of a dirty bomb had been removed from the matter, with the government instead contending that Padilla had been part of a plot to blow up apartment houses.

At the appeals court level, the government won, and so Padilla's lawyers appealed to the Supreme Court. Inside the administration, the battle over what to do raged on. As one Justice Department official put it, "This was the pathology of group decision-making."

Finally, just days before the deadline for the government's filing a brief in the Supreme Court, the Justice Department announced that it was transferring Padilla to the civilian courts. He had been indicted, the department said -- not for planning any offenses in the United States but for conspiracy to murder and maim and provide material support for terrorism against Russian troops in Chechnya and other places.

The very conservative judge who had written the appeals court opinion upholding Padilla's enemy combatant status, Judge Michael Luttig, exploded in written rage, refusing to transfer the case to the civilian courts. Luttig accused the Bush administration of a legal shell game that had the "appearance" of "avoiding review by the Supreme Court."

Eventually though, after a government appeal to the Supreme Court, the case was transferred to Miami, where Padilla now is scheduled to go on trial.

Allegations of 'Outrageous' Treatment

The prosecution faces major problems in the trial. The defense has asked the judge to throw the entire case out, asserting that the government's treatment of Padilla has been "so outrageous as to shock the conscience."

According to court papers filed by Padilla's lawyers, for the first two years of his confinement, Padilla was held in total isolation. He heard no voice except his interrogator's. His 9-by-7 foot cell had nothing in it: no window even to the corridor, no clock or watch to orient him in time.

Padilla's meals were delivered through a slot in the door. He was either in bright light for days on end or in total darkness. He had no mattress or pillow on his steel pallet; loud noises interrupted his attempts to sleep.

Sometimes it was very cold, sometimes hot. He had nothing to read or to look at. Even a mirror was taken away. When he was transported, he was blindfolded and his ears were covered with headphones to screen out all sound. In short, Padilla experienced total sensory deprivation.

During length interrogations, his lawyers allege, Padilla was forced to sit or stand for long periods in stress positions. They say he was hooded and threatened with death. The isolation was so extreme that, according to court papers, even military personnel at the prison expressed great concern about Padilla's mental status.

The government maintains that whatever happened to Padilla during his detention is irrelevant, since no information obtained during that time is being used in the criminal case against him.

Padilla's lawyer, Andrew Patel, rejects that premise. The assumption, says Patel, is that the U.S. government can do anything it wants to an American citizen as long as it does not use any information it extracts in a court of law.

Even former Justice Department spokesman Corallo concedes that in hindsight, Padilla was a bit player. Corallo says the government faces a problem over its ever-changing claims about what Padilla did and whether he could be prosecuted in a civilian court.

"It's going to make it difficult moving forward, because we were inconsistent," Corallo says.

Too Mentally Damaged to Stand Trial?

Another dilemma faces the government as well. Padilla's lawyers contend that as a result of his isolation and interrogation, their client is so mentally damaged that he is unable to assist in his own defense. He is so passive and fearful now, they maintain, that he is "like a piece of furniture."

Even at this late stage, after dozens of meetings with his lawyers, Padilla suspects that they are government agents, says Andrew Patel, who is on the legal team. Padilla may believe that the lawyers assigned to represent him are in fact "part of a continuing interrogation program."

The situation has become impossible, defense lawyers say; they've hired two psychiatric experts to examine Padilla. Both have often testified for the prosecution in criminal cases. This time they have sided with the defense.

After spending more than 25 hours with Padilla, both psychiatric experts have concluded that his isolation and interrogation have resulted in so much mental damage that he is incompetent to stand trial.

The experts believe that Padilla suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder as a result of his isolation and interrogation. According to reports filed by Dr. Angela Hegarty, director of forensic psychiatry at Creedmoor Psychiatric Center in New York, and Dr. Patricia Zapf, director of forensic psychology at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, Padilla is so fearful that he will not discuss his interrogation, will not look at videotapes of it and will not even review a transcript. In their view, he is not able to understand the significance of legal proceedings against him.

Doctors Say He's Not Faking It

There is no indication that Padilla is faking it, Hegarty says. To the contrary, Padilla denies that he has any problems and tends to identify with the government's interests more than his own.

For example, Padilla thought his lawyers were unfair in their rigorous questioning of the FBI agents who arrested him at O'Hare airport. This is a "typical response," writes Hegarty, a modified version of the Stockholm syndrome in which hostages identify with their captors. Because the captors "hold all the power," the more the captive identifies with that power, "the safer he feels."

Both Hegarty and Zapf administered a variety of objective tests to evaluate Padilla. While they found that he is able to understand the basic charges against him, he is "unable to assist" his attorneys because of his mental condition and the "paranoia" resulting from his treatment during two years of total isolation, followed by an additional year and a half of similar treatment. Zapf also suggested that Padilla may have suffered "brain injury." Both doctors noted his tics and spasmodic body responses.

The government adamantly denies mistreating Padilla, though it does not dispute the particulars cited in Padilla's legal papers. Rather, the government says its treatment of Padilla was humane and notes that it provided medical treatment when necessary. The government agreed to the additional psychiatric evaluation that has now been ordered by the judge.

Indeed, there are even some within the government who think it might be best if Padilla were declared incompetent and sent to a psychiatric prison facility. As one high-ranking official put it, "the objective of the government always has been to incapacitate this person."


From: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6682846

A lot of people seem to be disturbed by the treatment of Jihad Jose.

Hababi
01-04-2007, 04:31 PM
I had to cut this part out so it'd all fit. This goes up in the first part of the article:


The story begins on May 8, 2002, when Padilla, a 31-year-old American citizen returning from Egypt, was arrested at O'Hare International Airport in Chicago.

Padilla, who had converted to Islam while in prison 10 years earlier, was the focus of a major terrorism investigation. Federal officials believed he had met with top al-Qaida officials, even Osama bin Laden, and was on a mission to set off a radioactive dirty bomb in a major U.S. city. Many of those claims turned out to be untrue, or at least unsubstantiated. But at the time, just seven months after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, a number of government insiders were convinced of Padilla's involvement in a terrorist plot. President Bush signed an order declaring Padilla an enemy combatant.

At the time, Attorney General John Ashcroft was in Moscow. His spokesman, Mark Corallo, remembers receiving a late-night phone call when Padilla was arrested. Paging through the intelligence then available, Corallo was terrified.

"It was chilling," he recalls. "I mean, we were still very close to 9/11. The war in Afghanistan was raging. You still had that sense of fear that any moment something bad could happen."

Apollyon
01-04-2007, 04:39 PM
I don't care if he's the ghost of Hitler, torture to the point of brain damage isn't acceptable.

spitfirejunky
01-04-2007, 04:55 PM
Bush signed an order without due evidence?

This sounds strangely familiar.

Akira
01-04-2007, 06:55 PM
An American citizen was held in solitary for 2 years, and jailed for two more, and you think it's okay? You never cease to astound me Serenity. Notice how many times they changed his charges. This is just scary.

HeatoN
01-04-2007, 07:00 PM
Someone told me America doesn't do nearly as bad things as Saddam one time.

Hababi
01-04-2007, 07:09 PM
An American citizen was held in solitary for 2 years, and jailed for two more, and you think it's okay? You never cease to astound me Serenity. Notice how many times they changed his charges. This is just scary.

I didn't state my opinion either way, I just posted the topic:p

HeatoN
01-04-2007, 07:11 PM
But you joke about it.

How should I joke about killing babies.

Hababi
01-04-2007, 07:13 PM
But you joke about it.


The objection was to the misunderstanding that I had stated that it was ok, not that I had joked about it.

And come on, No way, Jose was just too good to pass up.

italic zero
01-04-2007, 07:15 PM
but it's not even a logical answer to the question in the thread title or poll

ringworm
01-04-2007, 07:44 PM
wow, here's another one I've never heard of
was he ever really guilty?

or is he potentially a serious threat to anyones safety that they bent rules to avoid release?

not that this changes how significance of what happened

Akira
01-04-2007, 08:11 PM
I didn't state my opinion either way, I just posted the topic:p

Calling him "Jihad Jose" doesn't scream neutrality to me.

White Riot!
01-04-2007, 09:31 PM
And you americans still dont accept why people hate you

WhoDidTheElf
01-04-2007, 09:32 PM
And you americans still dont accept why people hate you

Yeah maybe we should give them a good reason...like cutting all the aid we give away every year...

HeatoN
01-04-2007, 09:34 PM
yeah im really benefiting from all that aid you are giving my country right here

shut up

WhoDidTheElf
01-04-2007, 09:39 PM
yeah im really benefiting from all that aid you are giving my country right here

shut up

you may not, but your country prolly is.

HeatoN
01-04-2007, 09:41 PM
oh ok you dont get sarcasm

this country doesnt need nor get aid


and i still dislike america go figure

WhoDidTheElf
01-04-2007, 09:46 PM
oh ok you dont get sarcasm

this country doesnt need nor get aid


and i still dislike america go figure

my first point wasn't ment to be a very serious one in the first place.



woohoo, you can go jump off the bridge and make the world a better place.

White Riot!
01-04-2007, 09:49 PM
Yeah maybe we should give them a good reason...like cutting all the aid we give away every year...

How bout you drop the sanctions while your at it?

Dont deny that america does the musical chairs for public relations

even in your own attitude its insensitive and arrogant

spitfirejunky
01-04-2007, 09:50 PM
Oh God, America-bashing. Can you guys be less constructive?

HeatoN
01-04-2007, 09:52 PM
my first point wasn't ment to be a very serious one in the first place.oh ok this just isnt a serious discussion forum or anything

did you even respond to the topic?

can you justify it and/or give a reason why this is a reason to like america?


im guessing no

White Riot!
01-04-2007, 09:53 PM
Oh God, America-bashing. Can you guys be less constructive?

oh im sorry , any criticism of america must be america bashing.....or must be siding with terrorists!!!! ......oh please brother wake up to yourself. Continue allowing your government to **** around with the world , then look starry eyed when the worlds going to bite back.

spitfirejunky
01-04-2007, 09:54 PM
First off, you don't need to like a country to do business with it. Secondly, this isn't about the US, it's about Bush.

HeatoN
01-04-2007, 09:55 PM
oh yeah bush and the us totally two unrelated things

o.0

spitfirejunky
01-04-2007, 09:55 PM
oh im sorry , any criticism of america must be america bashing.....or must be siding with terrorists!!!! ......oh please brother wake up to yourself. Continue allowing your government to **** around with the world , then look starry eyed when the worlds going to bite back.

Your comment was spiteful, to say the least. And this situation is hardly the reason why the US has **** international relations.

White Riot!
01-04-2007, 09:56 PM
First off, you don't need to like a country to do business with it. Secondly, this isn't about the US, it's about Bush.

Who is bush?
Bush is president of the united states of america
So yes its about the actions of the US OF A since he is the ELECTED REPESENTATIVE.

Keep locking people up , its complete and utter human rights abuse.

All this stuff is related! (duh)

spitfirejunky
01-04-2007, 09:59 PM
oh yeah bush and the us totally two unrelated things

o.0

In this situation, yes. As hard as this will be for you to wrap your head around, the US doesn't collectively make an effort to torture people to insanity.

spitfirejunky
01-04-2007, 10:00 PM
Who is bush?
Bush is president of the united states of america
So yes its about the actions of the US OF A since he is the ELECTED REPESENTATIVE.

Keep locking people up , its complete and utter human rights abuse.

All this stuff is related! (duh)

Therefore all Americans are human rights abusers.

Excellent logic.

HeatoN
01-04-2007, 10:00 PM
they dont collectively seem to care that their government is doing it either

spitfirejunky
01-04-2007, 10:05 PM
they dont collectively seem to care that their government is doing it either

The fact that it reached the Supreme Court alone shows they do.

HeatoN
01-04-2007, 10:07 PM
if torture is still happening it would seem apathy has won

White Riot!
01-04-2007, 10:09 PM
Therefore all Americans are human rights abusers.

Excellent logic.

Grow up.

Things your government are actions that represent your country and people , even more so when you are in a democratic society

I did not say or even suggest what you have made up and are accusing of making a connection.

Anything your government does is a reflection of your people
Anything your troops do is a reflection on your government which is a reflection of your people.



America has locked up many without charge , and america has tortured many. america has brutalised many Dont try to deflect actions that tarnish on your countries name

MattSharpIsCool
01-04-2007, 10:20 PM
Do you guys really think most Americans are proud of this? Yes we elected the president who is doing this. I'm sure the same stuff goes on in your country too. This stuff happens everywhere, and don't tell me it doesn't. It's horrible, but it's a fact of life. Are you actually blinded enough to think America is the only country in the modern world to use torture and behind-the-scenes splinter cell **** to get rid of an individual?

This thread isn't about "lolz we hate the US because they obviously treat us so badly, sitting here on the internet in a warm house with food in the cupboards talking about how much we hate them and how badly they treat us." This thread is about a gross injustice that will hopefully, finally make people realize the mistake they've made, and lead them to not make the same mistake again.

spitfirejunky
01-04-2007, 10:27 PM
if torture is still happening it would seem apathy has won

Torture is a big problem, so even a caring public won't necessarily flush it out easily.

Grow up.

Things your government are actions that represent your country and people , even more so when you are in a democratic society

I did not say or even suggest what you have made up and are accusing of making a connection.

Anything your government does is a reflection of your people
Anything your troops do is a reflection on your government which is a reflection of your people.



America has locked up many without charge , and america has tortured many. america has brutalised many Dont try to deflect actions that tarnish on your countries name

Clearly you were trying to justify foreigners' hate of the US. And I won't ever accept under any circumstance that prejudiced hate is justifiable.

Knifeboy
01-04-2007, 10:34 PM
I'm sure the same stuff goes on in your country too.

Uh.. I can be pretty damned sure nothing like this is happening in denmark..

Mr. Ron
01-04-2007, 10:36 PM
Grow up.

Things your government are actions that represent your country and people , even more so when you are in a democratic society

I did not say or even suggest what you have made up and are accusing of making a connection.

Anything your government does is a reflection of your people
Anything your troops do is a reflection on your government which is a reflection of your people.



America has locked up many without charge , and america has tortured many. america has brutalised many Dont try to deflect actions that tarnish on your countries name

I don't really believe that. A lot of the time, elected representatives diverge from what they originally set out to do, and go against the people's wishes.

White Riot!
01-05-2007, 12:09 AM
I don't really believe that. A lot of the time, elected representatives diverge from what they originally set out to do, and go against the people's wishes.

Thats the princible of democracy. Its up to the people to take action to ensure that their representatives do what they want. Take the government to court , write letters , start a grass roots activist group , protest , create anti iraq propaganda etc , create a party , change your vote , threaten to change your vote in a letter. These are your democractic privilidges given to you.

Clearly you were trying to justify foreigners' hate of the US. And I won't ever accept under any circumstance that prejudiced hate is justifiable.

Not justify , but provode reasons for. if you installed saddams party and sanctioned my country , gave saddam WMD tech , destabilised my country , started war on false pretenses , commited the horrible and irreprehensible attrocitties of abu ghraib and jailed combatants and non combatants alike without proper evidence or charge I'd be pissed to.

These brutal tactics enrage hate for your country and dont really help fight terrorism at all. At least do the decent follow international conventions for fair detainment

Apollyon
01-05-2007, 12:14 AM
America has locked up many without charge , and america has tortured many. america has brutalised many Dont try to deflect actions that tarnish on your countries name

America didn't do anything. The American government, a system of ropes, pulleys, and Mickey Mouse elections did it. If you judge the people of a country by the actions of it's government, you're an ignorant tool. I'm assuming you live in the UK, but correct me if I'm wrong. If I were to judge your entire country by the actions of your government, I'd have more right to apply a label of apathy to your population just using the example of the death of Diana and the negligent response of the royal family. Or maybe I should judge your country on the actions of your leading representative, Tony Blair. Or should I say, Bush's ball-fondling lap dog?

Until you have some kind of logical, higher-thought endorsed evidence that every person in the American population supports the torture, detainment, and damage of uncharged suspects, shut the **** up and quit trolling for the sake of fueling your throbbing, angry erection that you keep folding over and sticking in your own ***.

EDIT: This post was full of anger. I'm over it.

White Riot!
01-05-2007, 12:26 AM
America didn't do anything. The American government, a system of ropes, pulleys, and Mickey Mouse elections did it. If you judge the people of a country by the actions of it's government, you're an ignorant tool.

Im basing my judgement of america in the subject matter , which is foreign policy and acts taken out on people and other states. Im not discussing people. :rolleyes: please learn some basic comprehension

I'm assuming you live in the UK, but correct me if I'm wrong. If I were to judge your entire country by the actions of your government, I'd have more right to apply a label of apathy to your population just using the example of the death of Diana and the negligent response of the royal family. Or maybe I should judge your country on the actions of your leading representative, Tony Blair. Or should I say, Bush's ball-fondling lap dog?


Im not english , but thats not the point. The point im refering to "america" as in the state , government and meathead troops


Until you have some kind of logical, higher-thought endorsed evidence that every person in the American population supports the torture, detainment, and damage of uncharged suspects, shut the **** up and quit trolling for the sake of fueling your throbbing, angry erection that you keep folding over and sticking in your own ***.

I never claimed this you fool. Someone tried to make up that I did , because they lack intelligent arguement:smash:

spitfirejunky
01-05-2007, 12:14 PM
Not justify , but provode reasons for. if you installed saddams party and sanctioned my country , gave saddam WMD tech , destabilised my country , started war on false pretenses , commited the horrible and irreprehensible attrocitties of abu ghraib and jailed combatants and non combatants alike without proper evidence or charge I'd be pissed to.

These brutal tactics enrage hate for your country and dont really help fight terrorism at all. At least do the decent follow international conventions for fair detainment

You said that I should accept why people hate Americans as a whole. There are reasons as to why this hate is being placed, but by no means should I have to accept it since I'm clearly not responsible for it.

White Riot!
01-05-2007, 08:34 PM
You said that I should accept why people hate Americans as a whole. There are reasons as to why this hate is being placed, but by no means should I have to accept it since I'm clearly not responsible for it.

regardless you should be concerned. Apathy is just as bad

italic zero
01-05-2007, 08:36 PM
no it's not

White Riot!
01-05-2007, 08:37 PM
well then what is their reason not to hate you then?

spitfirejunky
01-06-2007, 01:18 AM
regardless you should be concerned. Apathy is just as bad

Being aware of the hate and accepting it are two different things.

griftadan
01-06-2007, 01:34 AM
Someone told me America doesn't do nearly as bad things as Saddam one time.

yeah we don't really

White Riot!
01-06-2007, 02:11 AM
no you just put him in power....

griftadan
01-06-2007, 01:18 PM
no we didn't, we gave him weapons in the 80's ,he seized power himself before that.