Expanding the Art

[moogoogaipan]

So, I'm bored and was thinking, what is something unique that I can do to create a name for myself.
Aside from playing solidly, I want to be able to expand the thoughts and horizons of future drummers by adding something that no one has either 1)thought of already or 2)elaborate on something that no one else has.

So, this is a thread to share your "weird" ideas of methods, techniques, approaches, and anything else that could be considered pushing the envelope of the art of drumming.

So, I'll start by saying that it would be fun to master the technique of playing beats with one hand on the drumset and then setting up a keyboard and also playing a melody line at the same time.
Perhaps it's already been done, but it would be fun... albeit, you couldn't really play anything over complicated since you lack a whole appendage to dedicate to either instrument.

[Josiah]

I had this idea, and my dad made it. It's a metronome, and rhythmic system, based on time. So notes are messured in fractions of a second, as apposed to divisions of themselves.

[Leprechauns1021]

ITT: Post your ideas so Moog can steal them and make a name for himself




Nice try but I'm not fallin for it














jk

or am i?

i am

[Knifeboy]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HPvqZb-qoAQ about 2 minutes and 28 seconds in

My dad used to play trumpet and drums at the same time when he played way back in the day

[moogoogaipan]

ITT: Post your ideas so Moog can steal them and make a name for himself



shh...

You may know the truth, but let the others into my web.


also, in response to that video, that's what I meant about elaborate on an idea.

That guy wasn't playing anything fancy on the piano. I'm talking about the idea of being able to play a jazz solo while also comping drums behind. Mad finger work, not just simple slow melody.

[Chippy569]

as for drums.... maybe you could tinker around with setup? I've always wanted to put all my cymbals nice n' low, and then float my toms way up high.

and then, after doing some similar goofiness, explore the new techniques your new setup allows for.




or, having a tomless kit.... just a series of descending bells, like ice bells.






Or, taking your snare out of your crotch, putting it on a foot pedal, and then putting a remote hat stand in your crotch and exploring the new techniques.










i really like tinkering with setups.

[zfzgg]

When i'm older i definantly plan on leaving the boundaries of the 'standard' kit setup. That is...descending toms, hat positioning (think Bill Bruford:)), etc etc. I don't even know if i'll use crashes, i rarely seem to. I think they waste valuable space that a good light ride could take up:P

I know, it's not ground-breaking at all. But who knows? At least i know i'll be doing my bit to destroy this concept on the 'standard' drum kit.

If you want 'musical' ways of boundary pushing...you could always just do something like avoiding the concept on the 'backbeat', or generally try to change the role of the drummer in the band (which brings that other thread to memory). Who knows? Maybe the next great Rock band's drummer will play some melodies from time to time? Maybe he will provide a quiter, busier, 'latin-esque' flavour to the songs? Maybe he won't whore out the 1, the 2 or the 4?

Then again, actually getting something like this to work would probably require all the other band members to be rather imaginative.

Food for though.

[double stroke roller]

I'm gonna come up with the heel, ball of foot, toe technique to play fast triples on the bass drum so I can sell crappy videos on how to do it.

[Sync0pation]

vary note values in a measure modeled through a function f(x)

[FockerTheLopper]

vary note values in a measure modeled through a function f(x)

hahaha!!!!! Thats pretty funny...

Um I get alot of weird ideas but I forget them(ussualy because they're pretty useless). One that I've had for a while is do 32nds on hands and 32nds on feet but split it up, so its hand foot hand foot hand foot etc but alternating hands and alternating feet.

[moogoogaipan]

that's kind of like my really lame idea to get the one handed roll going really fast in both hands, and then offset it, so that I can play twice as fast as that.

That would be blazingly fast.:thumb:

But not really something I'm really interested in spending my time on...

[Chippy569]

learn to play the Drumbal... use Rabb as inspiration.

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

Rhythmically, I have been interested in minimalist phasing type stuff, download some Steve Reich, it's very interesting and somewhat mind bending but there's a nice potentially to learn from incorporating something somewhere somehow.

[MisurCanavi]

Phillip Glass "Music with changing parts"

Except...

With drums...

That would be kick ***...

[MattMarlow]

I've always wanted to have a melodic percussion instrument integrated into my kit, probably a marimba, similar to what peart has perhaps.

[Loser]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HPvqZb-qoAQ about 2 minutes and 28 seconds in

My dad used to play trumpet and drums at the same time when he played way back in the day


Dude, I hate to break it to you, but someone already invented the piano a long long time ago.

[RedDot]

Nobody has really contributed to expanding beyond the art of drumming. So far, everyone has taken ideas already done, and combined them.

It would be really hard to expand on drumming, the only way you can go out of the boundaries is if you forget the boundaries. You'd have to think like someone who's never heard or seen drums before.s

[Laney]

Nobody has really contributed to expanding beyond the art of drumming. So far, everyone has taken ideas already done, and combined them.

It would be really hard to expand on drumming, the only way you can go out of the boundaries is if you forget the boundaries. You'd have to think like someone who's never heard or seen drums before.s

Or apply what you know on the drums to another instrument.

[zfzgg]

Or vice versa?

[MattMarlow]

ok what about uhh, Stevey Hawking's talkbox thing, is controlled by one muscle in his eye, fix something like that upto a near useless muscle (like Stevey H) and sue that to trigger different sounds. Effectively gives you another limb.

[zfzgg]

Seems somewhat expensive. Haha

[Sync0pation]

Play the drums underwater....somebody told this to me earlier, and I was like shut up fool

[Josiah]

Nobody has really contributed to expanding beyond the art of drumming. So far, everyone has taken ideas already done, and combined them.

It would be really hard to expand on drumming, the only way you can go out of the boundaries is if you forget the boundaries. You'd have to think like someone who's never heard or seen drums before.s


haha i think people missed my post, #2 in the thread...

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

I had this idea, and my dad made it. It's a metronome, and rhythmic system, based on time. So notes are messured in fractions of a second, as apposed to divisions of themselves.
thats like playing at 60bpm essentially

[Josiah]

thats like playing at 60bpm essentially


Not even close. Read what I wrote again.

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

well, musically what's the difference

[Josiah]

Totally different rhythmic structure.

You could have a rhythm, of say... 3 notes, where one is say 2/10ths a second long, then one 5/100ths, then one 1/10th, repeat.

Now the what makes it a solid rhythm, is that the values are fixed. If you were to hear this rhythm played (the metronome I have can do that), then it would sound odd, but be constent. So long as the note values remain constent, then the rhythm is in time. The values of the notes were derived from time length, and not nessicarily division.

Of course, there is going to be a cross over. Rhythms could be noted in 'standard' musical form, though at some point. For instance, 4 notes each 2/10ths a second in length, is the same as 4 equal notes. Only the tempo need be calcuated. This cross over really gets too difficult very quickly however.


One application of this, is the abbility to create far more 'organic' rhythmic sounds. Such as random noises the world around us makes.

[RedDot]

I would like to hear this.

I can only see it being a really fast rhythm repeating itself.

You could have a rhythm, of say... 3 notes, where one is say 2/10ths a second long, then one 5/100ths, then one 1/10th, repeat.

5/100ths of a second is going every 5 milliseconds, that's a really fast tempo. Same goes for 1/10ths and 2/10ths of a second, just not as fast.

One application of this, is the abbility to create far more 'organic' rhythmic sounds. Such as random noises the world around us makes.

To get something like this you would be using really unusual devisions such as 1/5th, 3/8ths and whatnot. But then, even using unusual devisions, you would still get the repeating feeling every second, no?

I get the idea that this is nothing like a metronome, it is a device the repeats a 1 second long measure, and, by choosing 4 different devisions in a second, you get a rhythm. I grasped that much thus far.


Or apply what you know on the drums to another instrument.

But you wouldn't be contributing to the art of drumming in any way by doing so.

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

Totally different rhythmic structure.

You could have a rhythm, of say... 3 notes, where one is say 2/10ths a second long, then one 5/100ths, then one 1/10th, repeat.

Now the what makes it a solid rhythm, is that the values are fixed. If you were to hear this rhythm played (the metronome I have can do that), then it would sound odd, but be constent. So long as the note values remain constent, then the rhythm is in time. The values of the notes were derived from time length, and not nessicarily division.

Of course, there is going to be a cross over. Rhythms could be noted in 'standard' musical form, though at some point. For instance, 4 notes each 2/10ths a second in length, is the same as 4 equal notes. Only the tempo need be calcuated. This cross over really gets too difficult very quickly however.


One application of this, is the abbility to create far more 'organic' rhythmic sounds. Such as random noises the world around us makes.
Makes sense, this is completely possible already though.

But have fun =] I'd like to hear what you do with it.

[Josiah]

I can only see it being a really fast rhythm repeating itself.

5/100ths of a second is going every 5 milliseconds, that's a really fast tempo. Same goes for 1/10ths and 2/10ths of a second, just not as fast.



To get something like this you would be using really unusual devisions such as 1/5th, 3/8ths and whatnot. But then, even using unusual devisions, you would still get the repeating feeling every second, no?

no, there's not such thing as a 5th note.


I get the idea that this is nothing like a metronome, it is a device the repeats a 1 second long measure, and, by choosing 4 different devisions in a second, you get a rhythm. I grasped that much thus far.

^

No, that was just my example.. any number of notes can be programmed, equallying out to any length of time.

Notes can be anything from 1 second, to 1/100th of a second long. And any any value inbetween.

When I say notes, it's just a quick click or beep, like with drums. The note is represented even though the staccato sound ended long before.


Btw it's not as fast as you think. The 100ths obviouslly gets very difficult. But there many things played are incredible speeds played on drums, just the potential of being far more complex.


It was just an idea though really. it can be programmed, but as far as humanl recreated and improvised, eh might be too difficult.

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

So basically all the composing is done by 5 as opposed to 4. Which is posssible.

[Aaron]

I know that a few have done it in the past [bonham for one] but playing congas with one hand and the kit with the other effectively would be most excellent. Imagine being able to be the entire rhythm section for a samba and just having a 4-piece band; that'd be cool as to see live.

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mGNo0wu2T0U
This is pretty close to what you were describing.

[Aaron]

Kinda, except I thinking more in a band situation.. Cheers Jordan.

[MattMarlow]

Tear shape shells, so depending on where you hit the batter, different notes. I think i saw a bass like that once?

[moogoogaipan]

Nobody has really contributed to expanding beyond the art of drumming. So far, everyone has taken ideas already done, and combined them.

It would be really hard to expand on drumming, the only way you can go out of the boundaries is if you forget the boundaries. You'd have to think like someone who's never heard or seen drums before.s

I think you are speaking over your head here.

The drummers who are creditted with being the "greats" are called innovators for a reason. Something that they did hadn't been done before and therefore gave the upcoming drummers something to bank off of.
I never said anything about not using previous ideas, that's kind of a given.

[Aaron]

The difference between innovation and design is that innovation shows appreciation and reference to history. Neither is innovation or design is more or less better.

[moogoogaipan]

The difference between innovation and design is that innovation shows appreciation and reference to history. Neither is innovation or design is more or less better.

never heard that before... but it makes sense

[drummguy731]

Honestly, I want to be able to inspire future musicians to drum, to drum with the right technique, and to have fun doing it.

[moogoogaipan]

Honestly, I want to be able to inspire future musicians to drum, to drum with the right technique, and to have fun doing it.

That's equally admirable. That's not really my agenda, but it just so happens that I have some of the best (relaxed) technique at my school.:thumb:

[drummguy731]

I'd expect no less Moog, :lol:

[RedDot]

@Josiah:

I wasn't saying a 5th note, I was saying 1/5th of a second.

I've pretty much deciphered how this works. But, I don't understand you when you say, "random" or more organic rhythms. when you have devisions that repeat would would be able to predict it after the first couple repititions.

[Josiah]

oooh ok..


When I say that, well obviouslly after a structure is repeated you would notice. Lets not state the obvious.

Random or Organic rhythms as I mentioned, means simply, rhythmic phrases that are not based on subdivisions of themselves.

Most of the natural world has an order to it, but many of the rhythmic sounds are not subdividing themselves, or built like that. Interesting as it is, many people enjoy listening to the rain.. even more so when it is on a hard surface. And yet at the same time, rain, and the patterns it creates, are about as random as you can get.

[the_pure_drummer]

Sounds like a good concept "expanding the art".

Good like with that.

[MattMarlow]

Josiah, surely you'd still be playing subdivisions, just very obscure ones?

[RedDot]

oooh ok..


When I say that, well obviouslly after a structure is repeated you would notice. Lets not state the obvious.

Random or Organic rhythms as I mentioned, means simply, rhythmic phrases that are not based on subdivisions of themselves.

Most of the natural world has an order to it, but many of the rhythmic sounds are not subdividing themselves, or built like that. Interesting as it is, many people enjoy listening to the rain.. even more so when it is on a hard surface. And yet at the same time, rain, and the patterns it creates, are about as random as you can get.

On that note, there something called 'Phasing': combining two or more rhythms. The closest you can get to creating a 'random' feeling rhythm. It's what many people mistake poly-rhythms of being. An easy method to describe this would be combining simple, common rhythms.

Basic Rock Beat:
Hh|x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-|
Sn|----x-------x---|
Bd|x-------x-x-----|
##|1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |

Basic Waltz Beat:
Hh|x---x---x---|
Sn|----x---x---|
Bd|x-----------|
##|1 + 2 + 3 + |

Misc 5/4 Beat:
Hh|x---x---x-x---x---x-|
Sn|----------x-------x-|
Bd|x---x-------x-------|
##|1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + |

Then just combine them, and play them all at the same time:
Hh|x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-|

Sn|----x-------x-------x-------x-------x-------x---|
Sn|----x---x-------x---x-------x---x-------x---x---|
Sn|----------x-------x-----------x-------x---------|

Bd|x-------x-x-----x-------x-x-----x-------x-x-----|
Bd|x-----------x-----------x-----------x-----------|
Bd|x---x-------x-------x---x-------x-------x---x---|

##|1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |
##|1 + 2 + 3 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 1 + 2 + 3 + |
##|1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 1 + 2 + |

Hh|x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-|etc...
Sn|----x---x-x-x---x-x-x-------x-x-x---x-x-x---x---|etc...
Bd|x---x---x-x-x---x---x---x-x-----x---x---x-x-x---|etc...
##|1 + 2 + 1 + 2 + 1 + 2 + 1 + 2 + 1 + 2 + 1 + 2 + |etc...

That may not sound the greatest, but it will be really random, and it will be hard to make out exactly when it repeats itself. It's the closest method I have come across to creating the most random rhythms.
I've messed around with phasing and got some cool sounding 'random' rhythms at times.

Just something that I thought I could mention.

[RedDot]

http://media.putfile.com/Phased-Drumbeat
http://www.sendspace.com/file/r0te1w

[FullMoon]

ive always tried to think of differnt ways of putting on a show kinda of like what the blue man group does or the flaming lips i guess. like ive got one song where all it is is bass and tamborine and a little snare work at the end so i play a marching bass with one hand and tamborine in the other and it gives me a really weird stage precense

[Josiah]

RedDot...

You didn't create any type of randomness at all. It all lines up and is very simple straight note values.

[RedDot]

Oh I know, it's not random at all, I didn't say it was random. But, It has the feeling of being random.
The links are sound clips of what it sounds like, but for some reason they screwed up when exporting as mp3, and the 'waltz beat' canceled out the other two at times. It still gives you an idea of what I'm getting at though.

My friend did the same thing with his guitar, if he comes around and reads this maybe he'll post his guitar version.

[statdat]

moogoo the only way to do something no one has ever done is to learn as many rythems and styles as possible and gain independence. then you just mix and match. take horacio el negro hernandez who started using a footcowbell to play 2/3. ive recently started trying to play offbeat with my right hand and playing shuffle with my feet between the hi hat double pedal and cowbell and keeping a steady backbeat with my left hand.

[moogoogaipan]

^^That's a given.
It's the nature of the art to naturally combine the contemporary with the past to create something new....even if the whole idea is to stray from the old, you can't escape it.


Plus, I wasn't asking for me. It's just a discussion thread.

I.E. You post up your idea and we discuss.

[Det_Nosnip]

Sometimes I wonder whether there really is anything "new" to be done, heh. I guess the best we can do is just explore as far as we can and see if anything comes up. I am convinced that it won't require anything gimicky like playing a million instruments at once. In fact, I'm sure there's still something new to be said with just a snare, hi-hat, and a bass drum.

[RedDot]

So why don't we explore the snare, hi-hat and bass drum?

[Josiah]

^

There are many players who do. About half the time my practice rig is only hats, kick and snare.


The rhythmic possibilities are huge, combined with style and feeling inluence.. it'll be a never ending amount of unique things to play.


Of course, it will all just come back down to singles and doubles ;)

[moogoogaipan]

^^^minimalism. You can't beat it.

I'm a minimalist at heart, from everything to setup to artistic design in general. Cleaner and less complicated has always made me happy.

[Josiah]

Seen that video of Stanton Moore on drummer world using the RLLRLLRL sticking?

Then he just shreds around with it?!

That's what I'm talking about.

[Det_Nosnip]

^^^minimalism. You can't beat it.

I'm a minimalist at heart, from everything to setup to artistic design in general. Cleaner and less complicated has always made me happy.

Heh...see, I've always been more of a dramatist. Although I can certainly appreciate simplistic music and art, the stuff that really tends to get me going is when artists are really pushing the boundaries of their craft. Of course, there's a good and a bad way of going about this, and I certainly wouldn't say that music has to be complicated in order to be good, but I guess that's what makes me happy.

[Hunted By a Freak]

I play sometimes with multiple mallets in my hands... sometimes one hand is holding two mallets that do an ostinato and I solo with my other hand/feet or do another ostinato with my feet and solo with just the hand, or solo with the feet

[MisurCanavi]

Not really ground breaking, but I am adding more and more high-hats to my set. I really... REALLY like them. I have had a maximum of four on it, (On my four piece) but got rid of two because 1) Stands were bad, 2) Hats were ****.

But I loved being able to do so much when I had them.

I need to save up 1,000USD, and buy 2 remote stands and two nice hats...

I would be in heaven...


Oh, and I have a cowbell I play via feet.

[MattMarlow]

I agree Misur, I love hi hats, favourite voice on the kit. As an aside, how do people with "normal" cymbals set up as hats get their desired sound? Is it trial and error?, or is there some logic behind it. I'm askinh because I really want some 8" or 10" mini hats to contrast my main 14", and there doesn't seem to be that much on the market. Also 28" ride hats would rock:D... ahem

[Det_Nosnip]

Not really ground breaking, but I am adding more and more high-hats to my set. I really... REALLY like them. I have had a maximum of four on it, (On my four piece) but got rid of two because 1) Stands were bad, 2) Hats were ****.

But I loved being able to do so much when I had them.

I need to save up 1,000USD, and buy 2 remote stands and two nice hats...

I would be in heaven...


Oh, and I have a cowbell I play via feet.

I've thought about doing something similar to this. Like having multiple rides, having multiple hi-hats can give you a much wider range of tonal pallettes, allowing you to better adjust to dynamic music. So you could have a big, heavy pair of 15's for heavy playing, some thin 13s for softer playing, 14s might be your staple...and you'd be able to alternate between these, all within a single piece/song.

[Amit]

I'm a minimalist at heart, from everything to setup to artistic design in general. Cleaner and less complicated has always made me happy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimalist_music

well that's an interesting definition of minimalism

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

lol its funny when effiminate tv decorators use that word

[Amit]

i think it's funny when pretty much anyone uses the term :-X

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

yeh i prefer that type of minimalist approach to this word XD

[moogoogaipan]

I like some minimalist music.

Namely "Short Ride In A Fast Machine" a piece composed by John Adams

[Stickman Sam]

I have wide tastes where music is concerned, but when we breifly covered minimalist music in college it was too much for me.

Badum dsssssssss... Really though, I couldn't get a good listening ear for it at all.

~~

[Amit]

well you briefly covered it what do you expect

[Det_Nosnip]

Romantic all the way, for me.

[Amit]

romantic more like yawnnnnn

glass, cage, and reich is where it's at

[Det_Nosnip]

I agree Misur, I love hi hats, favourite voice on the kit. As an aside, how do people with "normal" cymbals set up as hats get their desired sound? Is it trial and error?, or is there some logic behind it. I'm askinh because I really want some 8" or 10" mini hats to contrast my main 14", and there doesn't seem to be that much on the market. Also 28" ride hats would rock:D... ahem

Well, alot of it has to do with the darkness/brightness of the cymbal tones and, especially, the quality of the cymbals - whether they're dry, wet, etc. "Dry" cymbals are typically used in funk and ocassionally in jazz (although, truth be told, jazz caters to a fairly wide range of cymbal qualities). Darker cymbals tend to cater more to jazz than rock, particularly since higher frequency ("brighter") cymbals tend to cut through distorted guitars much better.

Lately, I've been putting a good deal of thought into considering the idea of tonally matching different parts of a drumkit. Although drums and cymbals may not produce true, pure "tones" or "pitches" like a piano, they do produce A pitch, which can be consonantly or dissonantly paired with other pitches.

[Det_Nosnip]

romantic more like yawnnnnn

glass, cage, and reich is where it's at

Come on, you can't SERIOUSLY say that. At the best, your defense could be: "Romantic music is too scary/bombastic/dramatic/emotional. I like music that puts me to sleep and bores me to tears!" :lol:

[Amit]

at best my defense could be

romantic music bores me to tears and glass/cage/reich don't do that

pretty impressive isn't it?

[Josiah]

I have wide tastes where music is concerned, but when we breifly covered minimalist music in college it was too much for me.

Badum dsssssssss... Really though, I couldn't get a good listening ear for it at all.

~~

oooh so bad hahaha

[Det_Nosnip]

at best my defense could be

romantic music bores me to tears and glass/cage/reich don't do that

pretty impressive isn't it?

Not really....since it's all LIES!! :p

[Hunted By a Freak]

i did clapping music by reich last semester ill see if i can get a vid up

[Amit]

cameron is so hot :-X

[Hunted By a Freak]

oh youre too much

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

i did clapping music by reich last semester ill see if i can get a vid up
do it