Australians do get ripped off!

[Crazy and Stupid]

DAYYYYYYYYYYUM! Thats a killer ride...

Here in Australia, we get majorly ripped off, for example:

16" AA Medium crash @ MusiciansFriend = $149.99US = $191AUD

16" AA Medium crash @ Billy Hydes = $359AUD = $281US
Actually, the Sabian AA 16" Medium crash retails for $425 in Australia, not $359.

10% GST and import tax has to be paid on delivered goods from canada (or anywhere else) as does freight and currency conversion. Then, a certain percentage goes to the distributor so keep the stuff coming into Australia and if the retailer is lucky he can make abit on it too. Who exactly do you feel is ripping you off?

Dude, open your eyes we do get ripped off. In the U S of A they also have distrubutors. I have (and do) regularly buy multiple sabian crashes from the Us and have them posted to me via the US Post Office (not the cheapest shipping option). I get a 16" AA Medium Crash for under $200aud (including shipping). Depending on how many cymbals I'm ordering, sometimes as cheap as $150aud (including shipping). From the money I pay, the shop in the US gets a cut, the US distributor gets a cut, the factory gets a cut, the currency gets converted etc. etc.

Australia's distribution network is set up horribly and is very inefficient. Too many people take a cut (a big cut) as the cymbal travels down this gravy train. If you seriously beleive paying $230 to an unnecessary gravy train isn't being ripped off then you have a warped view of perception.

Get rid of the gravy train, it's unnecessary. The australian distributor should be located in Canada, and he should be distributing cymbals via the post office. That would mean the australian stores would be paying about $160aud per Sabian 16" AA Crash (including shipping). After a decent mark up, the store could then sell them for $250aud. Hows that sound?

[lmldrummer]

thread worthy?

no

stronghold, or general discussion

[Little Android Man]

sucks for you aussies.

USA All the way!

[keaton_86]

Its worse in New Zealand.

[Futuro]

Nice avatar crazy =/

[Little Android Man]

coming from someone with the coolest avi ever, thats a compliment if ive ever seen one.

[Undisco Kidd]

coming from someone with the coolest avi ever, thats a compliment if ive ever seen one.

:angry: I thought I had the coolest avatar ever.

Homolove + Limehate = :)

[Aaron]

I agree with John. Australian distributors are pretty inefficient and in most cases refuse to speak to customers, and only store-owners/reps.


edit: wtf guys, stay on topic or don't post.

[Little Android Man]

Homolove + Limehate = :)

IMO, that is the worst posible avi evr.

but, i will give you that your Lime-away made me laugh, that was original.

[Inkstar]

I agree that Australia gets ripped off in pretty much everything, and big time too, but I guess that's just the way it is - USA takes everything for granted, we get nothing.

[Crazy and Stupid]

Its worse in New Zealand.

Yup, but it's all the same principle here.

All this could be stopped if an "Australia, New Zealand, and Pacific" distributor was set up in Canada. The postage rates even for single cymbals aren't exorbinate if shipped efficiently (please note: massmusic.net does not ship efficiently), working out at about $30 for a crash and $45 for a ride. When you post 6 or 7 cymbals in the same box it gets closer to $15 to $20 each. Given that special orders from most regional locations take between 1 and 2 weeks the would be no added delay if special orders had to come from Canada.

[FockerTheLopper]

Greeks get ripped off, download Angellopoulos - Misirlou and then download black eyed peas - pump it and tell me that it isn't completely ripped off

[wesm9787]

yea and they had that one kid... the numa numa guy... i don't know if they were greek or italian or what... but that kid made millions probably off of lip synching to their song... and how much do you think they made off of it? i don't even know what the song is called... so i'm gonna say not a lot... i can't remember if they ever gave credit to the guys that actually wrote it... i only saw it like twice...

but yea i noticed here in the us we take advantage of every other country's ideas, and send all our restaurants and crappy music over to every other country yet we have no foreign restaurants here... i don't even know of any foreign restaurants... and yet they have subways in afghanistan... what the hell

[zfzgg]

Eh...Whilst i would very much love to see prices drop, i doubt that's going to happen. Therefore i am content with what i pay. Just to humour those from the U.S., we should post some prices we've seen for various items...
For example...
Roc 'n' Soc throne = $595
Various ride cymbals = $600-$700
14" BP snare of some description = $995

any more? :P

[wesm9787]

wait... is that us dollars or australian... because if that's us then that snare is more there than a lot of entire kits are here... i'm assuming it's australian... still pretty expensive though

[zfzgg]

Yeah, it's Australian.

[Crazy and Stupid]

wait... is that us dollars or australian... because if that's us then that snare is more there than a lot of entire kits are here... i'm assuming it's australian... still pretty expensive though
Yeah see thats what happens when every link in an overly long chain has a policy of around 50% mark up.

[Damo]

The australian distributor should be located in Canada, and he should be distributing cymbals via the post office. That would mean the australian stores would be paying about $160aud per Sabian 16" AA Crash (including shipping). After a decent mark up, the store could then sell them for $250aud. Hows that sound?
In a word, unrealistic.

I used to think like you, then I started working in the industry and saw what really goes on.

There is too small a market and too great a distance between customers here in Australia. The more you buy, the cheaper you get it for. I cannot see a distributor in Canada paying air or shipping freight on every individual item that leaves the factory, nor do I see anybody willing to air freight to places like Dampier or Kalgoorlie from Canada, nor do I expect that customers would want to wait 5 months for the crash of their choice to be delivered to them.

In Australia, those kinds of freight may be innefficient, but they are a lot less expensive than overseas couriers and thats the reality of the situation.

Youre also forgetting that by doing what you are suggesting, Warranties would not exist, and sooner or later, neither would the stores selling the product, which is too bad if you need a replacement cymbal quickly for a show, etc.

Its one thing to complain about what things cost here, but there are many more variables to consider. Best price isnt always the best decision.

[Crazy and Stupid]

In a word, unrealistic.
Wrong.

There is too small a market and too great a distance between customers here in Australia. The more you buy, the cheaper you get it for. I cannot see a distributor in Canada paying air or shipping freight on every individual item that leaves the factory, nor do I see anybody willing to air freight to places like Dampier or Kalgoorlie from Canada, nor do I expect that customers would want to wait 5 months for the crash of their choice to be delivered to them.
If the an official overseas distributor were set in Canada (like I'm suggesting) they would be prepared to post those cymbals. Air frieght isn't anywhere near as expensive as you make it out to be. I can buy a crash from store in $150usd and have it shipped to me for $20usd. It arrives within two weeks. 5 months? Thats sea freight mate.

It makes sense to locate the distributor as close to the factory as possible, as this cuts out as much unnecessary shipping as possible. Have you ever realised it costs the same to post a parcel from the US to Melbourne as it does to post from the US to Kalgoolie? At present the cymbals arrive in melbourne, and there is an extra freight cost from meloburne to kalgoolie. Cut out that unnecessary step.



In Australia, those kinds of freight may be innefficient, but they are a lot less expensive than overseas couriers and thats the reality of the situation.
US Post office charges $30usd for a 16" med thin crash to be posted from anywhere in the US to anywhere in Australia... arriving within 2 weeks. That's a very efficient and were cheap method of transport. Much better than sea freighting the cymbal to melbourne and then couriering it to a store (infact, the courier cost would be more than the $30usd postage cost from the united states... there goes any money you may have saved by using the extremely slow sea freight from canada).

Youre also forgetting that by doing what you are suggesting, Warranties would not exist, and sooner or later, neither would the stores selling the product, which is too bad if you need a replacement cymbal quickly for a show, etc.
Warranites would exist if Sabian allowed them too. Stores would not cease to exist, there business would increase as they are able to offer the products at cheaper prices while still maintaining 30% profit on every sale.

People still buy the cymbals fromt the stores, just the method of moving the cymbal from the factory to the store has been more cost efficient. Do you not see this?

Its one thing to complain about what things cost here, but there are many more variables to consider. Best price isnt always the best decision.
See, this is what really gets me. You don't understand what I'm saying.

[Crazy and Stupid]

To make it simple, Joe Public (me) can buy a 16" Sabian AA Crash cymbal from a US store and have it shipped to my flat, in under 2 weeks, for under $200aud. If a music store in Australia cannot obtain that same cymbal for less than a member of the public can it clearly demonstrates the uneconomicallity of the Australian distribution chain.

[maniac0796]

I think the reason why USA gets stuff so cheap is because it's cheaper and easier to ship to than most companys. A drum kit or a cymbal is a heavy, awkward thing to ship, and i think that's where alot of the price comes from.

Take the UK for example. We probably get Paiste and Istanbul cymbals cheaper than you guys in america because they can be easily shipped by land. Lorrys use a very fuel efficient engine, which converts minimal amount of diesel into high tourque, so it's cheap and efficiant to ship here. Also, we have the channel tunnel, which means again, we're not paying for container shipping or air shipping.

The moment you have to send the product to another continent, the price sky rockets.

[Crazy and Stupid]

I think the reason why USA gets stuff so cheap is because it's cheaper and easier to ship to than most companys. A drum kit or a cymbal is a heavy, awkward thing to ship, and i think that's where alot of the price comes from.
No, it's not geographic location.

A cymbal isn't heavy or awkward. A single crash and a single rides cost ~$35 and ~$55 (respectively) to ship via the post office.

As for Drum kits, most of the big names are manufactured in East Asia. Shipping a drum kit from these factories to Australia is actually slightly cheaper than shipping it to the USA.

[maniac0796]

Yuh, but take into consideration the fact the US has more kerosene supplys than the rest of the world. This means it's cheaper to fly a plane for them.

But my personal view is that US gets stuff cheap because of their influence, and the fact they have lots of cheap resources.

[raz0r]

The US gets stuff cheaper because it forms the largest part of the market.

More customers = more products, and we all know that shipping in bulk is cheaper.

Australia has less demand, and thus there is less supply, leading to higher shipping costs.


Another factor is that most of the big name cymbal companies are located in America/Europe, not Australia, so there are less shipping costs to factor into the price.

[pitchfork]

Not as much as the english get ripped off though!

[maniac0796]

Hmm, to be honest, i don't think we get ripped off that much.

[Damo]

The US gets stuff cheaper because it forms the largest part of the market.

More customers = more products, and we all know that shipping in bulk is cheaper
Thats a part of it.

Crazy, I do understand what youre saying but my point is, it isnt that simple for a retailer. The way you puchase a cymbal personally is very different from how stores have to go about doing it. We cannot simply ring Canada and get them to send us a 16" AA Medium Thin Crash like an individual consumer. For the sheer amount of stock a decent retailer moves, the orders are large and regular. As a retailer, we NEED to have a point of contact locally, or at the most Nationally.

The moment you have to send the product to another continent, the price sky rockets.
Not necessarily on paper, but the reality is that local freight companies can undertake discount deals with retailers. 99% of the time though, this is not possible with international couriers, so what appears to be a small difference in feight charges is in fact a massive difference. This is one of many variables I found out about since I started doing what I do. If youre not privy to this sort of information, then you really cant see the full picture.

Im not saying we dont pay too much, but there is not a clearly better way to do it for retailers, without cutting their own throat in the process.

[Crazy and Stupid]

Thats a part of it.

Crazy, I do understand what youre saying but my point is, it isnt that simple for a retailer. The way you puchase a cymbal personally is very different from how stores have to go about doing it. We cannot simply ring Canada and get them to send us a 16" AA Medium Thin Crash like an individual consumer. For the sheer amount of stock a decent retailer moves, the orders are large and regular. As a retailer, we NEED to have a point of contact locally, or at the most Nationally.
Look this is what I don't think you are understanding, I'm proposing that the whole distribution chain is changed. Currently music shops cannot ring up canada to order their store inventory. However, it wouldn't be difficult to implement my idea of distribution. The reason that the music store "can't do this" and "can't do that" isn't because it's logistically impossible. It's because the powers that be have not taken the initiative to allow it to happen.

The whole premise for your rebuttalls, thus far, have been shipping from overseas takes 5 months (false: it takes 7 to 10 days) and it's impossible to ship large orders from overseas (false: the US post office does not impose restrictions on the number of parcels posted).

In this day and age, with global communication being just one e-mail away, we no longer need to have local representatives and the like.


Not necessarily on paper, but the reality is that local freight companies can undertake discount deals with retailers. 99% of the time though, this is not possible with international couriers, so what appears to be a small difference in feight charges is in fact a massive difference. This is one of many variables I found out about since I started doing what I do. If youre not privy to this sort of information, then you really cant see the full picture.
Don't patronise me, and stop making such a big deal with freight. The only reason you need to use local couriers is because thats how the chain currently works. It doesn't need to work like that. The post office works fine and so much more efficient than the methods currently used.

The bottom line is: I know it's possible to move both individual and bulk orders of cymbals from a store in the US to any address in Australia for between $20 and $50 per cymbal (dependent on the number of cymbals in the package, and the size of the cymbal) and have them arrive within two weeks. I pay about 30% of the what the Australian retail value of the cymbals are, including the shipping fee. Let's not forget, the store in the US and courier firm in the US took a cut on this deal.

If Sabian's red tape means they can't move cymbals from it's factory to the stores for less than this, or even the same price as this, it shows that their distribution chain is inferior and nowhere near economical.

Im not saying we dont pay too much, but there is not a clearly better way to do it for retailers, without cutting their own throat in the process.
See another thing you don't get, I'm not griping about the retailers. I have been saying it all the long: uneconomical distribution chain. That's where the fault of the matter lies.

[White Riot!]

In this day and age, with global communication being just one e-mail away, we no longer need to have local representatives and the like..

You obviously have understanding to as what company/distribution reps actually do.....

Its called power/scale of economy. Companies try to balance the difference between supply and demand to make maximum profit. In america there is more supply and more demand so there is more room for market competition and thus they need to compensate the market price to compete to get enough demand to hit maximum profits.

In australia there is less demand , so we pay the price

[TheBandlehars]

If it makes any of you aussies feel better, You all get Oakley sunglasses cheaper there than we do in the US.

[theflame85]

I got ripped off hard the other day, paid $395 (after 20% off) for an A Custom 17". Normally i buy my Paiste cymbals off Ebay for naturally cheaper prices, but since i was after a Zildjian i'd rather go and hand pick it out of a bundle of them.
High Prices are a part of any hobby or specialty item. Theres no avoiding them.

[Aaron]

If it makes any of you aussies feel better, You all get Oakley sunglasses cheaper there than we do in the US.
Yeah cept no-one but bogans wear em now.

[moogoogaipan]

I got ripped off hard the other day, paid $395 (after 20% off) for an A Custom 17".

ow! I bet that hurt.

[theflame85]

yeah i'm just glad it sounds that good :D