War In Somalia

[Hababi]

Here's the latest on the war in Somalia, where Ethiopia is helping the existing government against Islamic forces with (reputed) ties to Al Quada:


Somali pro-govt forces to encircle Mogadishu

By Guled Mohamed 40 minutes ago

MOGADISHU (Reuters) - Ethiopian-backed troops advanced on the Somali capital Mogadishu on Wednesday, but a Somali government envoy said they would not attack the Islamist stronghold.

Ambassador Abdikarin Farah said the joint force of Ethiopian soldiers and government fighters would besiege Mogadishu until the Islamists laid down their arms.

"We are not going to fight for Mogadishu to avoid civilian casualties. Our troops will surround Mogadishu until they surrender," Farah told reporters in Addis Ababa.

Earlier, pro-government forces seized Jowhar, a key southern town from their Islamist rivals in the closest battle yet to the religious movement's base.

Many residents left their houses to cheer the victors, backed by Ethiopian tanks, who pursued the Islamists as sporadic gunfire echoed in the air.

Farah said pro-government troops then took Balad, just 30 km (18 miles) north of Mogadishu on the road from Jowhar.

The rapid offensive came hours after Ethiopia, defending the Somali interim government, said it was halfway to crushing the Islamists, heightening fears its next step would be to use air strikes and ground troops to seize the capital.

Ethiopia has proved more than a match for the Islamist fighters, who are driven by religious fervour but lack the MiG fighter jets and long experience of one of Africa's most effective armies.

Even so, any Ethiopian-led offensive on Mogadishu, a city of two million people, is likely to be messy.

The retreating Islamists appeared to be heeding a call by their senior leader, Sheikh Sharif Ahmed, for forces to gather in Mogadishu to prepare for a long war against their Ethiopia.

Analysts say a tactical retreat by the Islamists may draw Ethiopian soldiers further into Somalia and kick off a lengthy guerrilla campaign on the Islamists' home turf.

A week of mortar duels between Islamists and the Ethiopian-backed secular government has spiraled into open war that threatens to engulf the Horn of Africa, possibly attracting foreign jihadists and triggering suicide bombings.

The Somalia Islamic Courts Council (SICC) has depicted the conflict with Christian-led Ethiopia as a holy war against "crusaders," tapping into popular anti-Ethiopian sentiment stoked by decades of rivalry between the two neighbors.

Meanwhile, Ethiopia has portrayed it as a war against al Qaeda-linked terrorists, winning tacit support from Washington, which believes Islamic militants are hiding in Somalia.

DIPLOMATIC PUSH

Ethiopian Prime Minister Meles Zenawi says his forces have killed up to 1,000 Islamist fighters and wounded 3,000, although there was no independent verification of that.

The Islamists say they have killed hundreds.

Although the government risks prolonging the war by besieging Mogadishu, the other option is less attractive.

More than a decade ago, U.S. forces backed by Black Hawk helicopters suffered a humiliating defeat at the hands of militiamen attacking from the city's maze of back alleys.

Mindful of the historical precedent, Ethiopia will want to avoid getting embroiled in street-to-street fighting.

Analysts say another possible threat to the Islamist stronghold is gunmen, once in the employ of the capital's ousted warlords, whose loyalty to the SICC could be tested.

More than 800 people had been wounded and thousands were fleeing the combat zone, according to the Red Cross.

The
United Nations has warned that the displacement could trigger an aid crisis in a region already struggling with the aftermath of severe flooding.

The international community has been scrambling to deal with the war.

Foreign powers appeared split though, with the African Union (AU) and Washington backing what they view as Ethiopia's right to intervene to protect its interests.

The
U.N. Security Council failed late on Tuesday to agree on a statement calling for an immediate halt to the fighting and was due to hold further consultations on Wednesday.

There was a deadlock after Qatar, the Council's sole Arab member, insisted the appeal also demand the immediate withdrawal of Ethiopian and all other forces from Somalia.

The AU, Arab League and east Africa's regional body IGAD were meeting in Addis Ababa on Wednesday, and Kenyan diplomats said SICC leaders had been invited there for talks.

(Additional reporting by Sahal Abdulle in Mogadishu, Ibrahim Mohamed in Jowhar, Katie Nguyen and Nicolo Gnecchi in Nairobi)

Hopefully Ethiopia and the Somali government forces destroy the Islamic squad:cool:

[Dannyboy15]

Hopefully Ethiopia and the Somali government forces destroy the Islamic squad:cool:

+1

I think we should give Ethiopia "the bomb" and let it all be over with.

[MattyBlade]

Ethiopia are b-a's they take no jihad crap.

[VomitStainedCretin]

Somalia fvcked whatever happens - its a failed state already and the north seceded ages ago (see Somaliland, Puntland).

Funny how Ethiopia can afford MiG jets but cant feed its population half the time.

Still, sucks to the SICC. Hopefully they get buttfvcked.

[Dannyboy15]

Somalia fvcked whatever happens - its a failed state already and the north seceded ages ago (see Somaliland, Puntland).

Funny how Ethiopia can afford MiG jets but cant feed its population half the time.

Still, sucks to the SICC. Hopefully they get buttfvcked.

I think it's more important to protect your starving people from other countries in Africa.

[Thunderchild]

Africa needs to get sorted out, firstly by gutting the political heirarchy, namely Mugabe and his cronies, so that perhaps for once more effort can be spent on trying to stop the soldiers raping evcery fvcking woman and child and executing entire villiages, and less money spent on useless ****ing commoditties for the corrupt bastards in their palaces.

[Smokey D]

You're not going to solve anything by creating a power vacuum. Unfortunately, I think it will be more than a hundred years before Africa's problems are sorted out.

[Give me Beer]

I don't like either of the parties. I mean, Islamists are bad but the other guys are basically a bunch of warlords. Apparently now in the Somali capital it's actually safe to walk around... of course they put in draconian rules which I don't agree with, but I can see why people support them.

[lunchforthesky]

The last thing anyone wants is more islamic fundamentalists, if not for foreign policy for the hideous domestic policies.

[The Digital Pimp]

There's a war in Somalia?

[Yield]

Although I hate the idea of war, at least they are trying to avoid killing civillians. Unlike a certain middle eastern war

[Smokey D]

It's pretty stupid to try and tie every single point back to Iraq.

[Yield]

It's pretty stupid to try and tie every single point back to Iraq.

I'm not trying to. But it's pretty hard. Anyways I'll leave it at the fact that I don't like war at all. Also, I apologize.

edit: I know this is cliche, but I believe that the only things that wars accomplish are dead soldiers.

[VomitStainedCretin]

edit: I know this is cliche, but I believe that the only things that wars accomplish are dead soldiers.

Truth

[Krabsworth]

and good books/movies

[The End]

/games

[Smokey D]

Truth

Not always. Sometimes war can be justified.

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

Somalia had a government?

[Superfly]

They used to have a dictator but back in '91 it went all pear shaped and hasn't really improved much in terms of a cohesive government body

[Akira]

edit: I know this is cliche, but I believe that the only things that wars accomplish are dead soldiers.

That's because you live in a fantasy land?

[The Digital Pimp]

I know this is cliche, but I believe that the only things that wars accomplish are dead soldiers.

LOL. Nevermind all those other rights we and other people got because other people gave their lives. Oh, you know, like the right to vote, freedom from oppression, the abolition of slavery...

[Akira]

LOL. Nevermind all those other rights we and other people got because other people gave their lives. Oh, you know, like the right to vote, freedom from oppression, the abolition of slavery...

Those don't count.

Duh.

[Rearviewmirror]

Although I hate the idea of war, at least they are trying to avoid killing civillians. Unlike a certain middle eastern war

I just hope the US decides to stay out of it. I think the best thing the US can do these days is stay out of foreign conflict and worry about the US and nobody else, no matter who gets destroyed elsewhere.

[Yield]

LOL. Nevermind all those other rights we and other people got because other people gave their lives. Oh, you know, like the right to vote, freedom from oppression, the abolition of slavery...

Alright, so I was wrong. I agree that war is justified when it is for the good welfare of others.

[ringworm]

How come areas in the World that have had societies/culture around longer are the worst off as far as Third World status & constant turmoil?

[Superfly]

colonisation.

[shaqadelic]

lol that pretty much answered it.

[ringworm]

so if it wasn't for invaders, they would have a gleaming city with running water & other amenities?

[shaqadelic]

Most probably.

[ringworm]

lol :)

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

Purely blaming colonization is a huge cop-out and takes a lot of responsibility off the shoulders of post-colonial rulers

Most African nations got their independence 30-40 years ago, giving them plenty of time to develop functioning economies and societies

[italic zero]

just read guns germs and steel

[Blackichan]

I just hope the US decides to stay out of it. I think the best thing the US can do these days is stay out of foreign conflict and worry about the US and nobody else, no matter who gets destroyed elsewhere.

Silly goose what did you think they were doing?

[Rearviewmirror]

Silly goose what did you think they were doing?

Strategy is okay in my book. :thumb: It's the blatant help of other nations that has to stop.

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

We're not going to get involved in Somalia any time in the near future. There's still a huge stigma attached to it

[shaqadelic]

UIC has brought stability to the place they controlled. Right after they retreat, those warlords returned and they are no good.

Either way Ethiopia should stay out, foreign presence unless welcomed by both sides usually worsen a situation like this.

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_Islamic_Courts#Alleged_military_support_t o_the_ICU

[White Riot!]

Purely blaming colonization is a huge cop-out and takes a lot of responsibility off the shoulders of post-colonial rulers

Most African nations got their independence 30-40 years ago, giving them plenty of time to develop functioning economies and societies

hmm do you think its a co-incidence that every backwater theatre of world war two and chess ground of the cold war is still in turmoil?

[shaqadelic]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_Islamic_Courts#Alleged_military_support_t o_the_ICU

Alleged is the key word here. Furthermore it is not who supplies you but the actions you do, UIC has brought stability that the warlords for a decade couldn't or refused to bring.

[MegaPhony]

Purely blaming colonization is a huge cop-out and takes a lot of responsibility off the shoulders of post-colonial rulers

Most African nations got their independence 30-40 years ago, giving them plenty of time to develop functioning economies and societies

30 to 40 years is an incredibly short amount of time if you're constantly war-torn. I'd say creating a stable economy and society during war is a near impossibility. Especially since once you've gained independence, you don't really have anybody to depend on for support.

[Hababi]

Alleged is the key word here. Furthermore it is not who supplies you but the actions you do, UIC has brought stability that the warlords for a decade couldn't or refused to bring.

Stability in a radical Islamic state with documented allegiance to Osama Bin Ladin is unnacceptable. Not only is it faux stability, but it is a danger to the international community.

[shaqadelic]

Stability in a radical Islamic state with d0cumented allegiance to Osama Bin Ladin is unnacceptable. Not only is it faux stability, but it is a danger to the international community.

Documented ties with Osama? All I see is repeated claims on inconclusive grounds. Not to mention they do not practice Al Qaeda style tactics. Leaving strongholds to avoid fighting with Ethiopia's jets and tanks to avoid massive civilian's deaths and obvious defeat are things Al Qaeda don't do.

[Akira]

Stability in a radical Islamic state with d0cumented allegiance to Osama Bin Ladin is unnacceptable. Not only is it faux stability, but it is a danger to the international community.

While I don't know a lot about this situation, are these ties similar to Iraq's ties to Osama. :rolleyes:

[Hababi]

Documented ties with Osama? All I see is repeated claims on inconclusive grounds.

Many of their members openly proclaim allegiance with OBL, and are on video doing exactly that. They are another Taliban.

[shaqadelic]

Many of their members openly proclaim allegiance with OBL, and are on video doing exactly that. They are another Taliban.

The top heads have denied allegiance to Al Qaeda and have denied they share any ideals or objective to the group. And it shows in their actions, no attacking civilians for example.

[Hababi]

The top heads have denied allegiance to Al Qaeda and has denied they share any ideals or objective as the group.

Unfortinitely, the rest of their words and actions contradict their deceitful proclamations. There is no legitimacy in tyranny, and they were a sterling example of extremist tyranny.

[shaqadelic]

Um so not. The warlords that they dispose off are known to rob, kill and rape civilians. This is not disputed, you can find reports in any news source. These warlords are more fit to be labeled tyrants.

[Hababi]

Um so not. The warlords that they dispose off are known to rob, kill and rape civilians. This is not disputed, you can find reports in any news source. These warlords are more fit to be labeled tyrants.

There was also progress being made in establishing some level of rule and law in Somalia, free from an ultra repressive extremist state. The Islamic Court aimed to take Somalia back to the middle ages.

[shaqadelic]

Progress? I don't think so. It is one of the reason why the UIC took matters into their own hands because things were worsening, and that's saying a lot about Somalia. After retreating from their strongholds, the warlords returned within hours and stability was lost.

[Hababi]

The UIC took hold spouting a bunch of rhetoric that they had no intention of upholding. They siezed control because the warlords were weak and succeptable, not because things were getting worse. They siezed power to establish theocracy.

[shaqadelic]

They took over because there was public support for them and against the warlords. When you are able to bring stability, the people supports you. That's why you will read alot about people joining the Court or even opposing warlords' units defecting to the UIC's side during their May 2006 and onwards offensive.

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

hmm do you think its a co-incidence that every backwater theatre of world war two and chess ground of the cold war is still in turmoil?

The Cold War ended 15 years ago, yet Eastern Europe has been able to adjust to the new international climate. Africa has failed because of its attempts at socialism in post-colonial rule and the international community's inability to allow any role to white Africans in government, ala Rhodesia

30 to 40 years is an incredibly short amount of time if you're constantly war-torn. I'd say creating a stable economy and society during war is a near impossibility. Especially since once you've gained independence, you don't really have anybody to depend on for support.

So it's okay to not blame them for their intolerance of other tribal groups? Yes, the borders were haphazardly drawn, but the Africans must have some blame placed upon them for being unable to forego ethnic hatred in their own best interest

[Hababi]

They took over because there was public support for them and against the warlords. When you are able to bring stability, the people supports you. That's why you will read alot about people joining the Court or even opposing warlords' units defecting to the UIC's side during their May 2006 and onwards offensive.

It is a myth that revolutions come with popular support. Revolutions come with weak governments. Most of them have only a small percentage of the overall population behind them.

Even you seem to agree that the IUC is no good. So, if it's a battle of two not-so-good sides, look at what's better for the international community. The spread of radical Islam, rule by people who have sworn allegiance to OBL, is terrible and unacceptable.

[shaqadelic]

The victories earned by the UIC has been aided by frequent defection of warlords' forces and whole districts willingly let UIC took over. Popular support is not the right word but logical choice, the people know that they are in better hands under the UIC.

Even you seem to agree that the IUC is no good. So, if it's a battle of two not-so-good sides, look at what's better for the international community.

The best situation for Somalia and subsequently international community is to get rid of the warlords and the UIC is more successful at this than the government.

The spread of radical Islam, rule by people who have sworn allegiance to OBL, is terrible and unacceptable.

OBL intentionally attack civilians and fight reckless wars. The UIC has the best intention of Somalia in mind, its retreat from Mogadishu has led to the government returning to an area that they didn't dare to until UIC cleaned up of the local warlords. Allegations are not supported by the UIC's actions at all.

[Hababi]

The best situation for Somalia and subsequently international community is to get rid of the warlords and the UIC is more successful at this than the government.


You can bargain with warlords and develope some level of functional government (see: Afghanistan). You can do no such thing with jihadists.


and: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/4450123.html

[italic zero]

zero, you're doing a terrible job at arguing your point

[nowhesingsnowhesobs]

The Cold War ended 15 years ago, yet Eastern Europe has been able to adjust to the new international climate. Africa has failed because of its attempts at socialism in post-colonial rule and the international community's inability to allow any role to white Africans in government, ala Rhodesia

there isn't any valid analogy to be made between post-colonial Africa and post-communist Eastern Europe.

[Iskandar]

The Cold War ended 15 years ago, yet Eastern Europe has been able to adjust to the new international climate. Africa has failed because of its attempts at socialism in post-colonial rule and the international community's inability to allow any role to white Africans in government, ala Rhodesia
It's not so rosy in Eastern Europe. A lot of former satellite nations still deal with poverty, corruption, etc.

It's not "socialism" which Africa has failed at, it seems to be stable and democratic government.

I do agree with your point on white Africans, however. The policies of many African nations are explicitly racist.

[shaqadelic]

You can bargain with warlords and develope some level of functional government

You cannot bargain with warlords, especially when the government has no real authority or legitimacy.
Warlords care for themselves than the Somalia state, that's why the government has failed to bring them together.

On the bright side, when UIC cleared the warlords in Mogadishu and retreated to let the government move in, the govt was able to gain a small bit of legitimacy by being in the capital, a position they won't achieve without UIC. Hopefully, they can resist being overwhelmed by the warlords again or UIC's work will be wasted.

and: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/4450123.html


The site looks a bit tacky to be honest. One obvious thing is that it assumes low level members represent the UIC's standpoint. This is the official orders from the UIC of what its members are to do.

http://somalinet.com/news/world/Somalia/6223

5. Lastly, the ICU is calling on all the Islamic fighters in Somalia, where ever they may be, to maintain security and stability in their localities and get ready in the police stations and other security installations.

[VomitStainedCretin]

I do agree with your point on white Africans, however. The policies of many African nations are explicitly racist.

The policies of the white colonialists were usually highly racist. Whites in any case are tiny minorities in virtually all African countries except South Africa, where they are treated pretty fairly considering how apartheid treated blacks.

[Smokey D]

They took over because there was public support for them and against the warlords. When you are able to bring stability, the people supports you. That's why you will read alot about people joining the Court or even opposing warlords' units defecting to the UIC's side during their May 2006 and onwards offensive.

From what I understand, the initial public favour that allowed the UIC to sweep to power was replaced by increasing disatisfaction as they insituted harsher and harsher rules, like prohibitions on music and women moving around in public by themselves. The warlords were terribly corrupt, and no doubt still are, but I don't know if the UIC was the proper way to deal with it.

[shaqadelic]

The public support hasn't decreased for the UIC but the people doesn't hate the government either. Their position is simply alright for UIC or the govt, just as long as the warlords are kept away.

[Iskandar]

The policies of the white colonialists were usually highly racist. Whites in any case are tiny minorities in virtually all African countries except South Africa, where they are treated pretty fairly considering how apartheid treated blacks.
Racism by the colonial powers doesn't excuse racism by the black majority.
Take Zimbabwe, where the property of white landholders is seized arbitrarily for distribution to blacks. Whites may own a disproportionate share of the land, but you still can't tell me that isn't racist.

[VomitStainedCretin]

Racism by the colonial powers doesn't excuse racism by the black majority.
Take Zimbabwe, where the property of white landholders is seized arbitrarily for distribution to blacks. Whites may own a disproportionate share of the land, but you still can't tell me that isn't racist.

Yes, but its not as if the whites set a good example - particularly in Rhodesia. Im not trying to justify racism by the black majority, Im just saying its the kind of response you should expect after years of domination/oppression by the white colonial powers.

[YDtoad]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/08/world/main2335451.shtml

Yeah but there's no UIC Al Queda connection :rolleyes:

[Smokey D]

The public support hasn't decreased for the UIC but the people doesn't hate the government either. Their position is simply alright for UIC or the govt, just as long as the warlords are kept away.

That's not what I heard on the BBC.


Yes, but its not as if the whites set a good example - particularly in Rhodesia. Im not trying to justify racism by the black majority, Im just saying its the kind of response you should expect after years of domination/oppression by the white colonial powers.

It has never been the case that the response we expect is the same as the response that's right.

[Aaron]

You're not going to solve anything by creating a power vacuum. Unfortunately, I think it will be more than a hundred years before Africa's problems are sorted out.
Exactly; removing things without replacing it does nothing. The answer lies in UN-supported de-arming followed by assisting at a village/town level to train people in farming and skills development. People grab a gun when they're feeling scared and powerless, if you empower them with a feeling of self-worth and skill they'll support themselves and others.

[VomitStainedCretin]

It has never been the case that the response we expect is the same as the response that's right.

Did I say I thought it was the right response? I believe not.

[Smokey D]

We all know what happened in Zimbabwe. We also all know it was bad. I don't really see the relevance to Somalia which was never colonised in the same way.