Interspecies Communication

[Apollyon]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3430481.stm

This link was posted in the Pit (kudos to Rrrrrrr) but I thought it would be a good topic of discussion here, given the current ape discussion and some of the points brought up by it.

My question is this:

Do examples such as the above present a situation in which we realize we know far less about the workings of what we consider primitive minds, or are creatures like this a fluke?

Also, if a parrot is able to learn the English language and utilize it to effectively communicate with it's human counterparts, what does that suggest about more intelligent animals, like the common crow? Do you think it's possible that animals (at least certain species) have cognitive thought in similar fashion to our own, but without the same ability to convey/communicate that we as humans have adapted?

Would it be possible then that the communication methods used between animals are, more or less, just a few more foreign languages that we simply don't understand?

This might seem silly to some, but it's a fairly serious topic. All the time we spend pondering intelligent life on other planets, and we may have a few more intelligent species sitting right under our noses.

[PsychoTronn]

i read that dolphines communicate though sound waves and they are somewhat intelligent

[Smokey D]

Parots, crows and such merely mimic human sounds; they don't employ language like we do and only display a limited ability for cognition. Dolphins, whales and the great apes seem to have an intelligence that is, while a great deal less than human, significantly more than most other things. A famous example is Koko the gorilla, which was capable of learning American sign language and even used it to lie. She also seemed to feel empathy to her pet cat, though this may have been a projection anthromorphic emotions on an animal.

[PerpetualBurn]

Smokey D beat me to it.

It's one thing for the parrot to respond to a picture of two people hugging with the appropriate terminology with "Can I give you a hug?" but that doesn't actually demonstrate any comprehension of the words.

[RockAndRoll]

N'kisi's remarkable abilities, which are said to include telepathy, feature in the latest BBC Wildlife Magazine.
This made me wonder about the validity of some of these results....

[veggie 3.14]

This made me wonder about the validity of some of these results....

Yeah, that is a pretty odd thing to be saying.

That looks really interesting, although I feel that more research needs to be done.

[Thunderchild]

This parrots owner has obviously been teaching the parrot phrases and words and it associates what it sees with what noises it makes.

There was a nature programe once studying natural camouflaging terchniques in the wild. One example was a bird that mimics the sound of other creatures as a camouflage. It had obviously been photographed, because it had adopted the sound of a camera shutter.
Mimiccing human sounds is completely different from learning a human language.

[Africa]

I guess humans have just evolved enough to develope language vocally/physically and cognitively.

[Steerpike]

I'd like to see this tested in more controlled conditions, but I don't rule out the possibility that creatures as intelligent as a parrot could grasp the paradigm of spoken-word language.

Yes, it is extremely unlikely. But I'd like to entertain the possibility nevertheless, if for no other reason than to further research in the idea.

What intrigues me is that language is such an abstract concept, and in fact a spoken word language is much less efficient than certain methods of communication already in nature. Body language in particular.

[Knifeboy]

In an experiment, the bird and his owner were put in separate rooms and filmed as the artist opened random envelopes containing picture cards.

Analysis showed the parrot had used appropriate keywords three times more often than would be likely by chance.

Is it just me or did they just try to claim that the bird is telepathic?

[Phalanx]

Is it just me or did they just try to claim that the bird is telepathic?

i read that as well, i never knew telepathy was real :confused:

[Amit]

This might seem silly to some, but it's a fairly serious topic. All the time we spend pondering intelligent life on other planets, and we may have a few more intelligent species sitting right under our noses.

except we don't

there simply isn't enough grey and white matter to go around in their little wittle brains

[PerpetualBurn]

That's time we could be dedicating to perfecting homeopathy and crystal healing.

[Amit]

don't forget magnetic therapy!

[MattSharpIsCool]

That's pretty crazy. The average parrot understands about 80 words, but this one understands 950?

It's one thing for the parrot to respond to a picture of two people hugging with the appropriate terminology with "Can I give you a hug?" but that doesn't actually demonstrate any comprehension of the words.

In order to use the appropriate terminology, I think the bird would have to have a comprehension of the words. Otherwise, how would it know that it was the right situation to say them? It's the same with dogs. Most dogs understand "sit" or "stay" or whatever, so they must be able to understand those words.

[Amit]

it's matching stimulus with a response with a rewarding outcome

no need for abstract comprehension for that to happen

[MattSharpIsCool]

Even if it is only for a reward, the animal would still have to understand that "sit" means they get a cookie. If you say to a dog "tapdance across the kitchen" it won't do it, even if you're holding a cookie in it's face, because it doesn't understand the words.

I'm not trying to say tomorrow you'll wake up and have a conversation with your dog, but I do think certain animals have the ability to actually understand a limited amount of language.

[RNR]

to be one of the most advanced users of human language in the animal world

There is more than one human language! That link discriminates against non-english speakers! I declare this thread closed!

(and that's neat)

[Amit]

an animal doesn't have to understand a limited amount of language nor even a single world to act upon it

it treats it just like any other sound

[PerpetualBurn]

The dog hears "sit" and knows to put it's arse on the floor.

You could also train it to sit to the word "plum". It has no understanding of the word, just what response it has been conditioned to use.

[BassVirtuoso]

Has anyone ever heard a Parrot speak in something besides English?

[Knifeboy]

Yes... I live in Denmark, why would a dane train their parrot to speak english?


You could also train it to sit to the word "plum". It has no understanding of the word, just what response it has been conditioned to use.

That doesn't really have anything to do with understanding the word, you could teach a non english speaking foreigner to think that the word plum means the same as sit.

[PerpetualBurn]

You could also teach it to sit when you fart.

Dogs are learning association, not an understanding of language.

They know to sit, but they don't know the definition of sitting.

[Apollyon]

You could also teach it to sit when you fart.

Dogs are learning association, not an understanding of language.

They know to sit, but they don't know the definition of sitting.

So let's say you were to travel to someplace like, oh, let's say Japan, and you made yourself a buddy there. Your buddy doesn't speak a word of English, so you start teaching him a few things. You decide it would be pretty funny to make him think that the word, "pussy" means "sit". You teach him that when you say, "pussy" that means it's time to take a seat.

If he interprets that word to mean sit, what makes him more intelligent than a dog?

[Africa]

If you teach a dog to sit /w the word "sit" it's acting on positive and negative reinforcements, it's concept of words is very limited, you can't teach words to animals that reference intangible things. Something tells me that's the difference, I'm no expert.

[Amit]

So let's say you were to travel to someplace like, oh, let's say Japan, and you made yourself a buddy there. Your buddy doesn't speak a word of English, so you start teaching him a few things. You decide it would be pretty funny to make him think that the word, "slightly confuzzled sea lion" means "sit". You teach him that when you say, "slightly confuzzled sea lion" that means it's time to take a seat.

If he interprets that word to mean sit, what makes him more intelligent than a dog?

his executive function/planning/execution capabilities are far greater than a dog could ever be

probably because so much of the dog's frontal cortex is taken up by the olfactory bulb

humans have a tiny olfactory bulb but a massive prefrontal cortex

[lunchforthesky]

I could teach a child the meaning and response to the word look and seperately the word down. Additionally i could do the same thing to a dog, but if i combined the words together only the child would understand the command and thats the difference.

[PerpetualBurn]

You're all missing the point.

There's a difference between presenting a conditioned response and understanding the definition of a word.

[lunchforthesky]

Thats pretty much the point i was making.

[PerpetualBurn]

It wasn't really a literal "all". Just an "all those who oppose me".

[lunchforthesky]

Oh right, fair enough :p

[conselation]

You could also teach it to sit when you fart.

Dogs are learning association, not an understanding of language.

They know to sit, but they don't know the definition of sitting.

Yes but surely that is how we learn language? We learn that a certain movement can be described in a spoken word, but in theory, (obviously not actually) we could be taught that farting was a desription of that same movement.

[jaredong]

there's this thought experiment i remember but cant find it online. Its like

Theres a man behind a wall. He does not know chinese. Through a hole in the wall, people give him cards in chinese. The man takes the cards and flips through a book which does not tell him what it means, but what a correct response would be. He writes down the response and hands it back through the hole in the wall. It is as if the person behind the wall "understands" chinese, but really he is just responding without knowledge of it.

Would you say a computer "understands" things that you say to it? (there's a number of mIRC and msn bots which give pretty believable answers). Its the same with animals.

Though... maybe there are some smarter animals like dolphins and apes. Though i seriously doubt that we will ever be able to communicate with *every* animal in the world. There goes eating KFC without feeling like you're killing something that can talk.

[Amit]

Yes but surely that is how we learn language? We learn that a certain movement can be described in a spoken word, but in theory, (obviously not actually) we could be taught that farting was a desription of that same movement.

inane and completely incorrect

[PerpetualBurn]

Yes but surely that is how we learn language? We learn that a certain movement can be described in a spoken word, but in theory, (obviously not actually) we could be taught that farting was a desription of that same movement.

No.

A dog sitting is a conditioned response.

It doesn't actual understand any meaning of the word.

[Knifeboy]

You could also teach it to sit when you fart.

Dogs are learning association, not an understanding of language.

They know to sit, but they don't know the definition of sitting.


I was just pointing out that most of your post was irrelivant to your point :P.. I wasn't disagreeing

[PerpetualBurn]

It wasn't irrelevant.

I was making it clear that a dog is simply being taught to react to a sound, not to understand deeper meaning of a word.

[moogoogaipan]

Yes, it is extremely unlikely. But I'd like to entertain the possibility nevertheless, if for no other reason than to further research in the idea.

why is it unlikely?

I'm a fond entertainer of the idea that animals have communicative skills.

This can easily become a theology debate because Christians don't believe that animals have "souls". That is if anyone has a "soul" so to speak.

I think that a living animal is no different than a human being. We have a better adaptation for using tools, but we aren't the only animals to utilize tools and if you watch own any animals, you notice how it begins to understand gestures that you give it.

[Surgicalgod]

In other words, dogs don't know that they are "sitting"; they just respond to the sound by sitting.

[PerpetualBurn]

why is it unlikely?

I'm a fond entertainer of the idea that animals have communicative skills.

This can easily become a theology debate because Christians don't believe that animals have "souls". That is if anyone has a "soul" so to speak.

I think that a living animal is no different than a human being. We have a better adaptation for using tools, but we aren't the only animals to utilize tools and if you watch own any animals, you notice how it begins to understand gestures that you give it.

We're MUCH more intelligent. And self-aware.

[Knifeboy]

Humans is the only species with brain capacity to spare for such silly things as self-awareness and abstract thinking...

[PerpetualBurn]

Dolphins and elephants are also thought to be self-aware.

[moogoogaipan]

We're MUCH more intelligent. And self-aware.

yeah, but much more intelligent doesn't equivocate to animals being brainless animals that are incapable of feelings or intelligent thought.

[Knifeboy]

Dolphins and elephants are also thought to be self-aware.

Really?... Elephants? Cool.

Wich kinds of experiments is used for testing self-awareness? hmmm

[PerpetualBurn]

Usually the spot test is the simplest and first test used.

A subject is shown a mirror, and then the mirror is removed. The subject then has a spot placed on their forehead (discreetly). The mirror is reintroduced. If the subject appears to notice that the spot does not belong, then it can be assumed that it recognises itself in the mirror, and that it recognises its own features and which belong and which do not.

[spitfirejunky]

Elephants, camels and dolphins also have long-term memory.

[ringworm]

Humans is the only species with brain capacity to spare for such silly things as self-awareness and abstract thinking...


there was a recent TV show on this topic that contradicts this^^

teaching sign language is easy, but the studied apes & chimps showed even more thought & awareness than previous studies theorized.

Dolphins & Elephants as well

I couldnt find a link :(

[PerpetualBurn]

It's really a good job you bumped this thread 3 days after I said that.

Good work.

(apes and chimps still can't use language though)

[ringworm]

hey :( if its on the first page, I'll add what I want, k?

by using language, do you mean simply speakin or correlating feelings or wants to us? because these chimps did.

they thanked their caretakers for a new holding facilitiy one time & several other times while flipping through a mag, they would see an image of a cupcake (for example) & then would ask for something sweet

or just let the caretakers know they were happy or hungry etc.

[PerpetualBurn]

Yeah, and dogs whine when they're hungry. That doesn't make it an intelligible sentence.

[ringworm]

i guess you had to see the show, no need for a debate, the show did show MUCh evidence that we need to research it more to have better proof, but the evidence it aired was compelling itself

if i could find a link, but i cant remember if its NG or Discovery or another

[PerpetualBurn]

I'm sure the show seemed convincing, but from my experience many shows on things like the Discovery Channel follow the interesting line of though, not necessarily the scientific one.

I've seen no scientific evidence to think that apes and monkeys really understand language.

[ringworm]

maybe so, or maybe our definition of understanding language is slightly different?

these apes were in a small confined cage (most of their life) but were soon to be transported to a large outdoor facility.

to make the move eaiser/less stressful, the team shot a vid of them playing on equipment, moving from here & there, using sign language to explain the rooms, this is your new home etc.

The apes even asked questions & acted very excited about "new home"

the day they got released, instead of sprinting out to play, they studied it a bit, then walked over to their handlers & signed "thank you" :)

it was pretty cool

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

The between understanding is that human won't fall on their *** like a dog if you use the word in a sentence.

[PerpetualBurn]

maybe so, or maybe our definition of understanding language is slightly different?

...what?

[ringworm]

I've seen no scientific evidence to think that apes and monkeys really understand language.
The show I saw made me think differently

I clearly saw an understanding of correlating feelings to us, but to answer your "what?" response, I guess someone with better knowledge may not perceive this as truly understanding, but only repeating what has been taught to them.
That's all, does that clarify it better?

[PerpetualBurn]

Yes it does. But it's been explained many times we it's not enough to simply repeat the appropriate sign. That doesn't indicate the comprehension of language that humans have.